A question to challenge Sunni brothers!

[mohsenhona 117]

 

There are variety of Hadiths assert the number of successors after the Prophet Muhammad in Sunni hadith books.

Bukhari (Vol:4):

حدثنی محمد بن المثنی، حدثنا غندر، حدثنا شعیبة، عن عبدالملک سمت جابر بن سمرة قال: سمعت النبی صلی الله علیه و سلم یقول: یکون اثنی عشر امیرا فقال کلمة لم اسمعها قفال ابی: انه قال: کلهم من قریش.

        The commanders are twelve and all of them are form Quraish.

Muslim (Ketab al-Emara): he narrated this hadith from five ways.

       This issue is not done until twelve successors come and all of them are from Quraish.

Well, now the question from our Sunni brothers is that “who are the twelve successors after the prophet (peace be upon him and his projeny)?"

Please mention their names one by one.

Thanks. 

 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2016 by Haji 2003

[Abu Nur 4,679]

22 minutes ago, mohsenhona said:

 

There are variety of Hadiths assert the number of successors after the Prophet Muhammad in Sunni hadith books.

Bukhari (Vol:4):

حدثنی محمد بن المثنی، حدثنا غندر، حدثنا شعیبة، عن عبدالملک سمت جابر بن سمرة قال: سمعت النبی صلی الله علیه و سلم یقول: یکون اثنی عشر امیرا فقال کلمة لم اسمعها قفال ابی: انه قال: کلهم من قریش.

        The commanders are twelve and all of them are form Quraish.

Muslim (Ketab al-Emara): he narrated this hadith from five ways.

       This issue is not done until twelve successors come and all of them are from Quraish.

Well, now the question from our Sunni brothers is that “who are the twelve successors after the prophet (peace be upon him and his projeny)?"

Please mention their names one by one.

Thanks. 

 

 

 

It's not necessary because they don't know and don't care but the first few of them and the last one. It is not like in Shia Islam, where these successors are meaningful and are guidance of Islam.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Dhulfikar

[Medstudent101 8]

To those whom don't know where this Hadith is written precisely (I searched for it)

Narrated Jabir ibn Samura: I heard the Prophet (s) saying: "There will be Twelve Commanders." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, the Prophet added, "All of them will be from Quraysh." [ Sahih al-Bukhari (English), Hadith: 9.329, Kitabul Ahkam; Sahih al-Bukhari , (Arabic), 4:165, Kitabul Ahkam]

The Prophet (s) said: "The Religion (Islam) will continue until the Hour (Day of Resurrection), having Twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh." [ Sahih Muslim , (English), Chapter DCCLIV, v3, p1010, Tradition #4483; Sahih Muslim (Arabic), Kitab al-Imaara, 1980 Saudi Arabian Edition, v3,

p1453, Tradition #10]

[Follower of Truth 46]

1 hour ago, mohsenhona said:

Well, now the question from our Sunni brothers is that “who are the twelve successors after the prophet (peace be upon him and his projeny)?"

 

Please mention their names one by one.

Thanks. 

 

 

 

Praise be to Allah

 

Firstly: the text of the hadeeth: 

It was narrated that Jaabir ibn Samurah said: I entered upon the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) with my father, and I heard him say: “This matter will not end until there have been among them twelve caliphs.” Then he said something that I could not hear, and I said to my father: What did he say? He said: “All of them will be from Quraysh.” 

Narrated by al-Bukhaari (no. 7222); Muslim (no. 1821). 

According to other versions also narrated by Muslim:

“Islam will continue to prevail through twelve caliphs.”

“This religion will continue to prevail and be strong until there have been twelve caliphs.”

According to the version narrated by al-Bukhaari, it says: “There will be twelve rulers.” Then he said something I did not hear, and my father said that he said: “All of them will be from Quraysh.” 

Secondly: 

The scholars have several approaches and interpretations as to the meaning of this hadeeth: 

1.     The first approach: 

They said that what is meant is the fair and just caliphs; some of them have already appeared and passed on, and the number will be completed before the Hour begins. 

An-Nawawi (may Allah have mercy on him) said, quoting from al-Qaadi ‘Iyaad: 

It may be that what is meant is those who are rightfully deserving of the caliphate; some of them have already come and passed on, and are known, and this number will inevitably be completed before the Hour begins. End quote. 

Sharh Muslim, 12/202 

This view was also favoured by Imam al-Qurtubi (may Allah have mercy on him), who said: 

They are the just caliphs, such as the four (Rightly Guided) caliphs, and ‘Umar ibn ‘Abd al-‘Azeez. Others who are like them will inevitably appear and support truth and justice, until this number is completed. This is the most correct of the scholarly views in my opinion. End quote. 

Al-Mufhim, 4/8 

Al-Haafiz Ibn Katheer (may Allah have mercy on him) said: 

What this hadeeth means is giving glad tidings of the coming of twelve righteous caliphs who will support the truth and treat the people with justice. It does not necessarily mean that they will come one after another; rather four of them have already come one after another, namely the four caliphs: Abu Bakr, ‘Umar, ‘Uthmaan and ‘Ali (may Allah be pleased with them). Another of them is ‘Umar ibn ‘Abd al-‘Azeez, according to the leading scholars, and others are some of the Abbasids. 

The Hour will not begin until they have all come and the number is completed. What appears to be the case is that one of them will be the Mahdi who is foretold in the hadeeths that speak of him. End quote. 

Tafseer al-Qur’an al-‘Azeem, 3/65 

2.     The second approach: 

Another view is that what is meant is that the twelve will all appear at the same time and be contemporaries of one another. 

An-Nawawi (may Allah have mercy on him) said, quoting from al-Qaadi ‘Iyaad: 

It was said that what is meant is that they will all appear at the same time, and each of them will be followed by a group (among the Muslims). Al-Qaadi said: It is not far-fetched to say that this has already happened, if you examine history. In Andalusia alone at the same time, after 433 AH, there were some of them, each of them claiming to be a caliph and taking that title. At that time there was another one in Egypt, and the Abbasid caliph was in Baghdad. This is in addition to others who also claimed to be caliphs at that time in other regions. 

He said: This interpretation is supported by what is said in the book of Muslim after that: “… there will be many caliphs.” They said: What do you command us to do? He said: “Fulfil the oath of allegiance to the first one, then the next.”  End quote. 

Sharh Muslim, 12/202 

Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar said: 

He – i.e., al-Muhallab – said: What appears most likely to be the case is that he (the Prophet – blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) foretold strange things and turmoil that would happen after he was gone, to the extent that the people would be divided among twelve rulers at the same time. If he had meant something other than that, he would have said, there will be twelve leaders who will do such and such. Because he did not tell us about them, we know that he meant that they would come at the same time. End quote from al-Muhallab. 

Al-Haafiz said: This is the view of those who did not come across any of the other versions of the hadeeth except the report that appears in al-Bukhaari, which is a summarized version. It is known from the reports that I have quoted above, from Muslim and elsewhere, that he mentioned some of the characteristics of their rule, which is that Islam will be prevalent and strong during their rule. According to another report, there is another characteristic, which is that each of them will have the ummah united under his rulership, as it says in the version narrated by Abu Dawood. He narrated this hadeeth via Ismaa‘eel ibn Abi Khaalid, from his father, from Jaabir ibn Samurah, as follows: “This religion will continue to prevail until there have been twelve caliphs, behind each of whom the ummah will be united. It was also narrated by at-Tabaraani via another isnaad from al-Aswad ibn Sa‘eed, from Jaabir ibn Samurah, as follows: “They will not be harmed by the enmity of those who oppose them.” End quote. 

Fath al-Baari, 13/211 

3.     The third approach 

The third view is that what is meant is caliphs during whose reign Islam will prevail and the ummah will unite around them, whether they are just and rule equitably or not. 

An-Nawawi (may Allah have mercy on him) said, quoting from al-Qaadi ‘Iyaad: 

It may be that what is meant is the one at whose time Islam will prevail and the Muslims will unite around him, as it says in Sunan Abi Dawood: “behind each of whom the ummah will be united.” 

This happened before the decline of Banu Umayyah (the Umayyads), when their rule became unstable and divisions appeared at the time of Yazeed ibn al-Waleed, when Banu al-‘Abbaas (the Abbassds) rebelled against him. End quote. 

Sharh Muslim, 12/202-203 

Abu’l-‘Abbaas al-Qurtubi (may Allah have mercy on him) said, when listing scholarly opinions concerning the hadeeth: 

This is speaking of the caliphs who would come after him and after his companions. It is as if he was referring thereby to the rule of the Umayyads, and that what was meant by “religion” (deen) was power and rulership; this was said in reference to what would be the status quo at that time (i.e., they would be stable and have a strong hold on power), and it was not said by way of praise. 

The word deen (usually translated as “religion”) may be used to refer to power or kingship, as it was sometimes used in poetry. 

The word is also used in this way in the verse in which Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning): “He could not take his brother by the law [deen] of the king (as a slave)” [Yoosuf 12:76]. 

Then he listed their kings or rulers: 

The first of them was Yazeed ibn Mu‘aawiyah, then his son Mu‘aawiyah ibn Yazeed – and he did not mention Ibn az-Zubayr because he was a Sahaabi, or Marwaan because he usurped the position of Ibn az-Zubayr – then ‘Abd al-Malik, then al-Waleed, then Sulaymaan, then ‘Umar ibn ‘Abd al-‘Azeez, then Yazeed ibn ‘Abd al-Malik, then Hishaam ibn ‘Abd al-Malik, then al-Waleed ibn Yazeed, then Yazeed ibn al-Waleed, then Ibraaheem ibn al-Waleed, then Marwaan ibn Muhammad. These were twelve in number. Then their caliphate ended and the caliphate passed into the hands of Banu’l-‘Abbaas (the Abbasids). 

Al-Mufhim, 4/8-9 

This opinion was mentioned by Ibn al-Jawzi in Kashf al-Mushkil min Hadeeth as-Saheehayn; he also quoted it from al-Khattaabi in a lengthy discussion of which this is a summary. Perhaps al-Qurtubi was narrating it from Ibn al-Jawzi. 

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said: 

This is how they were; the caliphs were Abu Bakr, ‘Umar, ‘Uthmaan and ‘Ali. 

Then there came to power whoever the people rallied behind and were able to hold the reins of power: Mu‘aawiyah and his son Yazeed, then ‘Abd al-Malik and his four sons; and ‘Umar ibn ‘Abd al-‘Azeez. 

After that, the Islamic state was beset by the decline that has continued until the present. The Umayyads ruled all the Muslim lands, and during their era the Islamic state was powerful and the caliphs were called by their own names, ‘Abd al-Malik and Sulaymaan; no such titles as ‘Adad ad-Dawlah, ‘Izz ad-Deen, Baha’ ad-Deen (elaborate honorific titles given to the caliphs) were known.

One of them would be the one who led the people in offering the five daily prayers, handed out banners in the mosque (to the armies setting out on expeditions), and appoint commanders, but he would live in his own house; they did not live in palaces or remain aloof from the common people. End quote. 

Minhaaj as-Sunnah, 8/170 

Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar (may Allah have mercy on him) said: 

The view that is most likely to be correct is the third, because it is supported by the Prophet’s words in other versions of the saheeh hadeeth, “the ummah will be united behind all of them.” What happened was that the people united around Abu Bakr, then ‘Umar, then ‘Uthmaan, then ‘Ali, until the incident of the two arbitrators at Siffeen. At that time, Mu‘aawiyah was called a caliph. Then the people united around Mu‘aawiyah after he made a peace deal with al-Hasan. Then they united around his son Yazeed, and al-Husayn was not able to hold power; rather he was killed before that. Then when Yazeed died, there was some division, until they united around ‘Abd al-Malik ibn Marwaan after the killing of Ibn az-Zubayr. Then they united around his four sons, al-Waleed, then Sulaymaan, then Yazeed, then Hishaam; and ‘Umar ibn ‘Abd al-‘Azeez came between Sulaymaan and Yazeed. These were seven caliphs after the Rightly-Guided Caliphs, and the twelfth was al-Waleed ibn Yazeed ibn ‘Abd al-Malik. The people united around him when his paternal uncle Hishaam died, and he reigned for approximately four years. Then they rebelled against him and killed him, and turmoil spread far and wide, and things changed from that day on. The people did not unite behind any caliph after that, because Yazeed ibn al-Waleed, who rebelled against his cousin al-Waleed ibn Yazeed, did not rule for long; rather the son of his father’s cousin, Marwaan ibn Muhammad ibn Marwaan rebelled against him. When Yazeed died, he was succeeded by his brother Ibraaheem, but Marwaan defeated him. Then Banu’l-‘Abbaas (the Abbasids) rebelled against Marwaan, until he was killed. Then the first of the Abbasid caliphs was Abu’l-‘Abbaas al-Saffaah, whose reign did not last long because of the large numbers who rebelled against him. He was succeeded by his brother al-Mansoor whose reign lasted for a long time, but they lost the far Maghreb (Andalusia), when the Marwaanis took over Andalusia; they remained in control of it and later on began to call themselves caliphs. Then things started to decline in all regions of the Muslim world, to the point that there was nothing left of the caliphate except the name only, in some countries. Prior to that, during the era of Banu ‘Abd al-Malik ibn Marwaan, the khateebs had delivered their khutbahs in the name of the caliph in all regions, East and West, North and South, in all lands under Muslim control, and no one could hold any position of authority in any land except by appointment of the caliph. Whoever studies history will realise that this is true. Based on that, what is meant by the words “Then there will be harj (killing)” is the killing that results from widespread turmoil, and continues to spread and increase as time goes by, which is what happened. And Allah is the One Whose help we seek. End quote. 

Fath al-Baari, 13/214 

4.     The fourth approach 

The fourth view is that these twelve caliphs will come after the appearance of the Mahdi at the end of time. 

Ibn al-Jawzi (may Allah have mercy on him) said: 

With regard to the other way of interpreting the hadeeth that was mentioned by Abu’l-Husayn ibn al-Munaadi concerning this hadeeth, regarding the words “after me there will be twelve caliphs” he said: This will only take place after the death of the Mahdi who will emerge at the end of time. He said: We found in the Book of Daniel: When the Mahdi dies, there will be five rulers, who are descended from the older grandson – meaning the son of al-Hasan ibn ‘Ali – then after them there will be another five from among the descendants of the younger grandson, then the last of them will give instructions that the (next) caliph should be a man from among the descendants of the older grandson, and he will take power, then after him his son will become ruler, and that will complete twelve rulers, each of whom will be a guided leader. 

Ibn al-Munaadi said: We found in the report of Abu Saalih from Ibn ‘Abbaas that he mentioned the Mahdi and said: Then after him will come twelve men, for one hundred and fifty years, six from among the descendants of al-Hasan, one from among the descendants of ‘Aqeel ibn Abi Taalib, and five from among the descendants of al-Husayn. Then he will die and mischief will become widespread and evil will return. 

Ka‘b al-Ahbaar said: There will be twelve guided rulers, then the soul created by Allah (i.e., ‘Eesa) will descend and will kill the Dajjaal. End quote. 

Kashf al-Mushkil min Hadeeth as-Saheehayn, 1/292-293. 

Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar quoted these words of al-Munaadi and said: 

With regard to what he narrated from Abu Saalih, it is very weak, and the same applies to what he narrated from Ka‘b. 

End quote from Fath al-Baari, 13/214 

5.     The fifth approach 

The fifth view is that it is to be understood as describing the ruling elite, the caliph, the viziers (advisers), governors, and so on. 

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said: 

Ibn Hubayrah interpreted the hadeeth as referring to the laws of the kingdom, based on twelve, such as viziers, judges and so on. 

But this is not valid; rather the hadeeth is to be taken as it appears to be and there is no need for such a far-fetched interpretation. End quote. 

Minhaaj as-Sunnah, 8/173 

6.     The sixth approach 

The sixth view is to refrain from interpreting the hadeeth and leave knowledge thereof to Allah, may He be glorified and exalted. 

An-Nawawi (may Allah have mercy on him) said, quoting from al-Qaadi ‘Iyaad: 

Allah knows best what he (the Prophet – blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) meant. End quote. 

Sharh Muslim, 12/203 

Ibn Battaal narrated that al-Muhallab said: 

I never met anyone who was certain about the interpretation of this hadeeth. End quote. 

Fath al-Baari, 13/211 

Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said: 

Among them were those who said that they did not understand what it meant, such as Abu Bakr ibn al-‘Arabi. End quote. 

Minhaaj as-Sunnah, 8/173 

Thirdly: 

With regard to the Shi‘ah quoting this hadeeth as evidence for the belief in the imamate – which means belief that their imams are infallible rulers, and even that they have the power of issuing laws and are in control of the universe – of twelve men from the family of the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him), for whom they have a list of specific names, the last of whom is the Mahdi, this is a far-fetched and distorted understanding of the hadeeth, based on fanatical bias, ignorance, and whims and desires. 

We will explain why this view is weak from several angles: 

1.

What is mentioned in the hadeeth is “twelve caliphs”, not “twelve imams.” There is a difference between the two. In their view imamate is more than mere caliphate and rule; according to their beliefs, imamate requires obedience, and implies that the imams are infallible in word and deed, that they act on behalf of Allah, may He be exalted, in controlling the universe, that they have absolute knowledge of the unseen, and other exaggerated notions that reached the point of kufr (disbelief that puts them beyond the pale of Islam), Allah forbid. All the hadeeth is actually saying is that there will be twelve caliphs or, according to another report, twelve ameers (rulers). This indicates that twelve men of Quraysh will be in positions of rulership. 

2.

These twelve men were all described in the hadeeth as belonging to Quraysh. The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “… all of them (will be) from Quraysh.” If they were from the family of the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him), he would have said “… all of them from Banu Haashim,” because identifying someone as a Haashimi is more specific than identifying him as a Qurashi; the custom is to attribute a person to the closest or most specific lineage. If all of them were to be from Banu Haashim, he would not have said that they would be from Quraysh. [Banu Haashim are a clan of Quraysh] 

3.

The text of the hadeeth indicates that the era of these twelve would be an era of strength, power and righteousness, in which Islam would be prevailing. This did not happen during the era of the twelve imams in whom the Shi ‘ah believe. All of them lived a life of weakness and persecution, hidden from view, so how could they have been able to contribute to the glory and strength of Islam in that situation? 

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said: 

“Whoever thinks that these twelve are the ones who the Raafidis believe are their imams is utterly ignorant, for none of them carried a sword except ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib. All the rest of the imams, apart from ‘Ali, never carried a sword, especially the Awaited One (al-Muntazar – the last imam). Rather he, according to those who believe in his imamate, is either scared and helpless or on the run, hiding for more than four hundred years. 

This hidden one never guided anyone who had gone astray, he never enjoined any good, forbade any evil or supported any oppressed person; he never gave a fatwa concerning any issue, he never gave a ruling and it is not known that he even existed at all! 

What benefit did he offer, even if he did exist, let alone Islam prevailing because of him? 

Moreover, the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) stated that Islam would remain strong and this ummah would remain in good shape until there had been twelve caliphs. If what is meant thereby is these twelve imams, the last of whom is al-Muntazar, who supposedly exists now, until he appears to them, as they believe, then Islam should still have been strong during the Umayyad and ‘Abbasid periods, and it should have prevailed when the disbelievers emerged in the East and the West (i.e., the Mongols and the Crusaders) and did what they did to the Muslims, which would take too long to describe here. Islam should have been still prevailing until today, and this is something other than what the hadeeth indicates. 

Moreover, Islam – according to the Imami Shi‘ah – is what they are following, and they are the most humiliated sect of the ummah. There are no followers of whims and desires who are more lowly than the Raafidis; no group is more concealing of their beliefs than them or more assidious in practicing taqiyyah (dissimulation). They claim to be followers of the twelve imams, yet they are the most humiliated. What support of Islam was achieved by these twelve, as they claim? Many of the Jews, when they became Muslim, became Shi‘ah, because they read in the Torah mention of twelve, so they think that these are the ones. But that is not the case; rather these twelve (in the hadeeth) are the men of Quraysh who took positions of leadership and caliphate in the ummah; at their time Islam was strong, and this is well known. End quote. 

Minhaaj as-Sunnah, 8/173-174 

Al-Haafiz Ibn Katheer (may Allah have mercy on him) said: 

This hadeeth indicates the inevitability of there being twelve just caliphs, but they are not the twelve imams of the Shi‘ah. Many of the latter had no power at all, whereas these (caliphs mentioned in the hadeeth) will be of Quraysh, and they will have power and will be just. End quote. 

Tafseer al-Qur’an al-‘Azeem, 6/78 

Shaykh ‘Uthmaan al-Khamees (may Allah preserve him) said: 

One may wonder: is it mere coincidence that the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said that twelve would rule or be in charge of the Muslims, and the number of the imams of the Shi‘ah is twelve? 

Answer: 

This is not a coincidence. The early Shi‘ah never had this idea of twelve imams. Hence the Shi‘ah divided into many sects. Some Shi‘ah believe that only ‘Ali was an imam; they are the Saba’is, who stopped at that point. Another group said that he was an imam, as were al-Hasan, al-Husayn and Muhammad ibn ‘Ali; they are the Keesaanis, and they stopped at Muhammad. Another group said that the imamate went up to Ja‘far then stopped. And another group said that al-Muntazar (the awaited one) is also an imam; they are the Ithna ‘Asharis (Twelvers). And there are other groups and many other divisions. Anyone who wishes to know more may refer to an-Noobakhti’s book on the Shi‘ah sects. 

So you can see that the idea of twelve imams came very late, because this idea did not exist among the early Shi‘ah; the hadeeths they quote were fabricated after the death of the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) and even after the death of most of the imams of the Shi‘ah. 

Thus it will become clear to you that the Shi‘ah are the ones who made this number match the number in the hadeeth of the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him). 

Finally, I say that the sound report is the one that says “all of them from Quraysh”. The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) would not have mentioned this general claim if he had meant something more specific; doing so is contrary to eloquence, and the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) was the most eloquent of people. 

For example, I would not say, “I am going to give a hundred dinars to every Arab,” then if an Egyptian comes to me, I tell him that I meant every Syrian. Is he not going to accuse me of being foolish and unable to express myself, and tell me that in that case I should have said “every Syrian”? 

If the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) had meant ‘Ali and his sons, he would have said, “They are ‘Ali and his sons.” Even if he had said “All of them from Banu Haashim,” that would have been eloquent. Banu Haashim were many, and Quraysh were more numerous, but the report speaks of them (Quraysh). If at-Tijaani [who wrote a book in support of Shi‘i ideas] and others quote this hadeeth as evidence because it matches the number they have, then what would they say about the hadeeth narrated by Imam Muslim in his Saheeh (2779), according to which the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Among my ummah there will be twelve hypocrites; they will not enter Paradise or even smell its fragrance, until the camel goes through the eye of the needle”? End quote. 

Kashf al-Jaani Muhammad at-Tijaani (a refutation of at-Tijaani’s book), p. 75 ff 

And Allah knows best.

[Faruk 1,341]

5 hours ago, mohsenhona said:

and all of them are from Quraish.

There is no Quranic nor logic evidence for this. 

The only probable reason for this is the claim of Umar at Saqifah. 

 

[Panzerwaffe 1,208]

7 hours ago, Faruk said:

There is no Quranic nor logic evidence for this. 

The only probable reason for this is the claim of Umar at Saqifah. 

 

This hadith neatly serves the purpose of both pro hashimi proummayyad and pro muhajireen quraish lobby

 

Btw how is Jabir  b samura who narrates this is seen by imami shia scholars? 

[Muslim2010 3,523]

On 4/26/2016 at 6:41 PM, mohsenhona said:

 

There are variety of Hadiths assert the number of successors after the Prophet Muhammad in Sunni hadith books.

Bukhari (Vol:4):

حدثنی محمد بن المثنی، حدثنا غندر، حدثنا شعیبة، عن عبدالملک سمت جابر بن سمرة قال: سمعت النبی صلی الله علیه و سلم یقول: یکون اثنی عشر امیرا فقال کلمة لم اسمعها قفال ابی: انه قال: کلهم من قریش.

        The commanders are twelve and all of them are form Quraish.

Muslim (Ketab al-Emara): he narrated this hadith from five ways.

       This issue is not done until twelve successors come and all of them are from Quraish.

Well, now the question from our Sunni brothers is that “who are the twelve successors after the prophet (peace be upon him and his projeny)?"

Please mention their names one by one.

Thanks. 

A more specific question and replies in this concern can be seen at the link given below

 

[Muslim2010 3,523]

On 4/26/2016 at 8:35 PM, Follower of Truth said:

1.     The first approach: 

They said that what is meant is the fair and just caliphs; some of them have already appeared and passed on, and the number will be completed before the Hour begins. 

An-Nawawi (may Allah have mercy on him) said, quoting from al-Qaadi ‘Iyaad: 

It may be that what is meant is those who are rightfully deserving of the caliphate; some of them have already come and passed on, and are known, and this number will inevitably be completed before the Hour begins. End quote. 

Sharh Muslim, 12/202 

This view was also favoured by Imam al-Qurtubi (may Allah have mercy on him), who said: 

They are the just caliphs, such as the four (Rightly Guided) caliphs, and ‘Umar ibn ‘Abd al-‘Azeez. Others who are like them will inevitably appear and support truth and justice, until this number is completed. This is the most correct of the scholarly views in my opinion. End quote. 

Al-Mufhim, 4/8 

Al-Haafiz Ibn Katheer (may Allah have mercy on him) said: 

What this hadeeth means is giving glad tidings of the coming of twelve righteous caliphs who will support the truth and treat the people with justice. It does not necessarily mean that they will come one after another; rather four of them have already come one after another, namely the four caliphs: Abu Bakr, ‘Umar, ‘Uthmaan and ‘Ali (may Allah be pleased with them). Another of them is ‘Umar ibn ‘Abd al-‘Azeez, according to the leading scholars, and others are some of the Abbasids. 

The Hour will not begin until they have all come and the number is completed. What appears to be the case is that one of them will be the Mahdi who is foretold in the hadeeths that speak of him. End quote. 

Tafseer al-Qur’an al-‘Azeem, 3/65 

2.     The second approach: 

Another view is that what is meant is that the twelve will all appear at the same time and be contemporaries of one another. 

An-Nawawi (may Allah have mercy on him) said, quoting from al-Qaadi ‘Iyaad: 

It was said that what is meant is that they will all appear at the same time, and each of them will be followed by a group (among the Muslims). Al-Qaadi said: It is not far-fetched to say that this has already happened, if you examine history. In Andalusia alone at the same time, after 433 AH, there were some of them, each of them claiming to be a caliph and taking that title. At that time there was another one in Egypt, and the Abbasid caliph was in Baghdad. This is in addition to others who also claimed to be caliphs at that time in other regions. 

He said: This interpretation is supported by what is said in the book of Muslim after that: “… there will be many caliphs.” They said: What do you command us to do? He said: “Fulfil the oath of allegiance to the first one, then the next.”  End quote. 

Sharh Muslim, 12/202 

Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar said: 

He – i.e., al-Muhallab – said: What appears most likely to be the case is that he (the Prophet – blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) foretold strange things and turmoil that would happen after he was gone, to the extent that the people would be divided among twelve rulers at the same time. If he had meant something other than that, he would have said, there will be twelve leaders who will do such and such. Because he did not tell us about them, we know that he meant that they would come at the same time. End quote from al-Muhallab. 

Al-Haafiz said: This is the view of those who did not come across any of the other versions of the hadeeth except the report that appears in al-Bukhaari, which is a summarized version. It is known from the reports that I have quoted above, from Muslim and elsewhere, that he mentioned some of the characteristics of their rule, which is that Islam will be prevalent and strong during their rule. According to another report, there is another characteristic, which is that each of them will have the ummah united under his rulership, as it says in the version narrated by Abu Dawood. He narrated this hadeeth via Ismaa‘eel ibn Abi Khaalid, from his father, from Jaabir ibn Samurah, as follows: “This religion will continue to prevail until there have been twelve caliphs, behind each of whom the ummah will be united. It was also narrated by at-Tabaraani via another isnaad from al-Aswad ibn Sa‘eed, from Jaabir ibn Samurah, as follows: “They will not be harmed by the enmity of those who oppose them.” End quote. 

Fath al-Baari, 13/211 

3.     The third approach 

The third view is that what is meant is caliphs during whose reign Islam will prevail and the ummah will unite around them, whether they are just and rule equitably or not. 

An-Nawawi (may Allah have mercy on him) said, quoting from al-Qaadi ‘Iyaad: 

It may be that what is meant is the one at whose time Islam will prevail and the Muslims will unite around him, as it says in Sunan Abi Dawood: “behind each of whom the ummah will be united.” 

This happened before the decline of Banu Umayyah (the Umayyads), when their rule became unstable and divisions appeared at the time of Yazeed ibn al-Waleed, when Banu al-‘Abbaas (the Abbassds) rebelled against him. End quote. 

Sharh Muslim, 12/202-203 

Abu’l-‘Abbaas al-Qurtubi (may Allah have mercy on him) said, when listing scholarly opinions concerning the hadeeth: 

This is speaking of the caliphs who would come after him and after his companions. It is as if he was referring thereby to the rule of the Umayyads, and that what was meant by “religion” (deen) was power and rulership; this was said in reference to what would be the status quo at that time (i.e., they would be stable and have a strong hold on power), and it was not said by way of praise. 

The word deen (usually translated as “religion”) may be used to refer to power or kingship, as it was sometimes used in poetry. 

The word is also used in this way in the verse in which Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning): “He could not take his brother by the law [deen] of the king (as a slave)” [Yoosuf 12:76]. 

Then he listed their kings or rulers: 

The first of them was Yazeed ibn Mu‘aawiyah, then his son Mu‘aawiyah ibn Yazeed – and he did not mention Ibn az-Zubayr because he was a Sahaabi, or Marwaan because he usurped the position of Ibn az-Zubayr – then ‘Abd al-Malik, then al-Waleed, then Sulaymaan, then ‘Umar ibn ‘Abd al-‘Azeez, then Yazeed ibn ‘Abd al-Malik, then Hishaam ibn ‘Abd al-Malik, then al-Waleed ibn Yazeed, then Yazeed ibn al-Waleed, then Ibraaheem ibn al-Waleed, then Marwaan ibn Muhammad. These were twelve in number. Then their caliphate ended and the caliphate passed into the hands of Banu’l-‘Abbaas (the Abbasids). 

Al-Mufhim, 4/8-9 

This opinion was mentioned by Ibn al-Jawzi in Kashf al-Mushkil min Hadeeth as-Saheehayn; he also quoted it from al-Khattaabi in a lengthy discussion of which this is a summary. Perhaps al-Qurtubi was narrating it from Ibn al-Jawzi. 

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said: 

This is how they were; the caliphs were Abu Bakr, ‘Umar, ‘Uthmaan and ‘Ali. 

Then there came to power whoever the people rallied behind and were able to hold the reins of power: Mu‘aawiyah and his son Yazeed, then ‘Abd al-Malik and his four sons; and ‘Umar ibn ‘Abd al-‘Azeez. 

After that, the Islamic state was beset by the decline that has continued until the present. The Umayyads ruled all the Muslim lands, and during their era the Islamic state was powerful and the caliphs were called by their own names, ‘Abd al-Malik and Sulaymaan; no such titles as ‘Adad ad-Dawlah, ‘Izz ad-Deen, Baha’ ad-Deen (elaborate honorific titles given to the caliphs) were known.

One of them would be the one who led the people in offering the five daily prayers, handed out banners in the mosque (to the armies setting out on expeditions), and appoint commanders, but he would live in his own house; they did not live in palaces or remain aloof from the common people. End quote. 

Minhaaj as-Sunnah, 8/170 

Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar (may Allah have mercy on him) said: 

The view that is most likely to be correct is the third, because it is supported by the Prophet’s words in other versions of the saheeh hadeeth, “the ummah will be united behind all of them.” What happened was that the people united around Abu Bakr, then ‘Umar, then ‘Uthmaan, then ‘Ali, until the incident of the two arbitrators at Siffeen. At that time, Mu‘aawiyah was called a caliph. Then the people united around Mu‘aawiyah after he made a peace deal with al-Hasan. Then they united around his son Yazeed, and al-Husayn was not able to hold power; rather he was killed before that. Then when Yazeed died, there was some division, until they united around ‘Abd al-Malik ibn Marwaan after the killing of Ibn az-Zubayr. Then they united around his four sons, al-Waleed, then Sulaymaan, then Yazeed, then Hishaam; and ‘Umar ibn ‘Abd al-‘Azeez came between Sulaymaan and Yazeed. These were seven caliphs after the Rightly-Guided Caliphs, and the twelfth was al-Waleed ibn Yazeed ibn ‘Abd al-Malik. The people united around him when his paternal uncle Hishaam died, and he reigned for approximately four years. Then they rebelled against him and killed him, and turmoil spread far and wide, and things changed from that day on. The people did not unite behind any caliph after that, because Yazeed ibn al-Waleed, who rebelled against his cousin al-Waleed ibn Yazeed, did not rule for long; rather the son of his father’s cousin, Marwaan ibn Muhammad ibn Marwaan rebelled against him. When Yazeed died, he was succeeded by his brother Ibraaheem, but Marwaan defeated him. Then Banu’l-‘Abbaas (the Abbasids) rebelled against Marwaan, until he was killed. Then the first of the Abbasid caliphs was Abu’l-‘Abbaas al-Saffaah, whose reign did not last long because of the large numbers who rebelled against him. He was succeeded by his brother al-Mansoor whose reign lasted for a long time, but they lost the far Maghreb (Andalusia), when the Marwaanis took over Andalusia; they remained in control of it and later on began to call themselves caliphs. Then things started to decline in all regions of the Muslim world, to the point that there was nothing left of the caliphate except the name only, in some countries. Prior to that, during the era of Banu ‘Abd al-Malik ibn Marwaan, the khateebs had delivered their khutbahs in the name of the caliph in all regions, East and West, North and South, in all lands under Muslim control, and no one could hold any position of authority in any land except by appointment of the caliph. Whoever studies history will realise that this is true. Based on that, what is meant by the words “Then there will be harj (killing)” is the killing that results from widespread turmoil, and continues to spread and increase as time goes by, which is what happened. And Allah is the One Whose help we seek. End quote. 

Fath al-Baari, 13/214 

4.     The fourth approach 

The fourth view is that these twelve caliphs will come after the appearance of the Mahdi at the end of time. 

Ibn al-Jawzi (may Allah have mercy on him) said: 

With regard to the other way of interpreting the hadeeth that was mentioned by Abu’l-Husayn ibn al-Munaadi concerning this hadeeth, regarding the words “after me there will be twelve caliphs” he said: This will only take place after the death of the Mahdi who will emerge at the end of time. He said: We found in the Book of Daniel: When the Mahdi dies, there will be five rulers, who are descended from the older grandson – meaning the son of al-Hasan ibn ‘Ali – then after them there will be another five from among the descendants of the younger grandson, then the last of them will give instructions that the (next) caliph should be a man from among the descendants of the older grandson, and he will take power, then after him his son will become ruler, and that will complete twelve rulers, each of whom will be a guided leader. 

Ibn al-Munaadi said: We found in the report of Abu Saalih from Ibn ‘Abbaas that he mentioned the Mahdi and said: Then after him will come twelve men, for one hundred and fifty years, six from among the descendants of al-Hasan, one from among the descendants of ‘Aqeel ibn Abi Taalib, and five from among the descendants of al-Husayn. Then he will die and mischief will become widespread and evil will return. 

Ka‘b al-Ahbaar said: There will be twelve guided rulers, then the soul created by Allah (i.e., ‘Eesa) will descend and will kill the Dajjaal. End quote. 

Kashf al-Mushkil min Hadeeth as-Saheehayn, 1/292-293. 

Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar quoted these words of al-Munaadi and said: 

With regard to what he narrated from Abu Saalih, it is very weak, and the same applies to what he narrated from Ka‘b. 

End quote from Fath al-Baari, 13/214 

5.     The fifth approach 

The fifth view is that it is to be understood as describing the ruling elite, the caliph, the viziers (advisers), governors, and so on. 

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said: 

Ibn Hubayrah interpreted the hadeeth as referring to the laws of the kingdom, based on twelve, such as viziers, judges and so on. 

But this is not valid; rather the hadeeth is to be taken as it appears to be and there is no need for such a far-fetched interpretation. End quote. 

Minhaaj as-Sunnah, 8/173 

6.     The sixth approach 

The sixth view is to refrain from interpreting the hadeeth and leave knowledge thereof to Allah, may He be glorified and exalted. 

An-Nawawi (may Allah have mercy on him) said, quoting from al-Qaadi ‘Iyaad: 

Allah knows best what he (the Prophet – blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) meant. End quote. 

Sharh Muslim, 12/203 

Ibn Battaal narrated that al-Muhallab said: 

I never met anyone who was certain about the interpretation of this hadeeth. End quote. 

Fath al-Baari, 13/211 

Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said: 

Among them were those who said that they did not understand what it meant, such as Abu Bakr ibn al-‘Arabi. End quote. 

Minhaaj as-Sunnah, 8/173 

Thirdly: 

With regard to the Shi‘ah quoting this hadeeth as evidence for the belief in the imamate – which means belief that their imams are infallible rulers, and even that they have the power of issuing laws and are in control of the universe – of twelve men from the family of the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him), for whom they have a list of specific names, the last of whom is the Mahdi, this is a far-fetched and distorted understanding of the hadeeth, based on fanatical bias, ignorance, and whims and desires. 

We will explain why this view is weak from several angles: 

1.

What is mentioned in the hadeeth is “twelve caliphs”, not “twelve imams.” There is a difference between the two. In their view imamate is more than mere caliphate and rule; according to their beliefs, imamate requires obedience, and implies that the imams are infallible in word and deed, that they act on behalf of Allah, may He be exalted, in controlling the universe, that they have absolute knowledge of the unseen, and other exaggerated notions that reached the point of kufr (disbelief that puts them beyond the pale of Islam), Allah forbid. All the hadeeth is actually saying is that there will be twelve caliphs or, according to another report, twelve ameers (rulers). This indicates that twelve men of Quraysh will be in positions of rulership. 

2.

These twelve men were all described in the hadeeth as belonging to Quraysh. The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “… all of them (will be) from Quraysh.” If they were from the family of the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him), he would have said “… all of them from Banu Haashim,” because identifying someone as a Haashimi is more specific than identifying him as a Qurashi; the custom is to attribute a person to the closest or most specific lineage. If all of them were to be from Banu Haashim, he would not have said that they would be from Quraysh. [Banu Haashim are a clan of Quraysh] 

3.

The text of the hadeeth indicates that the era of these twelve would be an era of strength, power and righteousness, in which Islam would be prevailing. This did not happen during the era of the twelve imams in whom the Shi ‘ah believe. All of them lived a life of weakness and persecution, hidden from view, so how could they have been able to contribute to the glory and strength of Islam in that situation? 

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said: 

“Whoever thinks that these twelve are the ones who the Raafidis believe are their imams is utterly ignorant, for none of them carried a sword except ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib. All the rest of the imams, apart from ‘Ali, never carried a sword, especially the Awaited One (al-Muntazar – the last imam). Rather he, according to those who believe in his imamate, is either scared and helpless or on the run, hiding for more than four hundred years. 

This hidden one never guided anyone who had gone astray, he never enjoined any good, forbade any evil or supported any oppressed person; he never gave a fatwa concerning any issue, he never gave a ruling and it is not known that he even existed at all! 

What benefit did he offer, even if he did exist, let alone Islam prevailing because of him? 

Moreover, the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) stated that Islam would remain strong and this ummah would remain in good shape until there had been twelve caliphs. If what is meant thereby is these twelve imams, the last of whom is al-Muntazar, who supposedly exists now, until he appears to them, as they believe, then Islam should still have been strong during the Umayyad and ‘Abbasid periods, and it should have prevailed when the disbelievers emerged in the East and the West (i.e., the Mongols and the Crusaders) and did what they did to the Muslims, which would take too long to describe here. Islam should have been still prevailing until today, and this is something other than what the hadeeth indicates. 

Moreover, Islam – according to the Imami Shi‘ah – is what they are following, and they are the most humiliated sect of the ummah. There are no followers of whims and desires who are more lowly than the Raafidis; no group is more concealing of their beliefs than them or more assidious in practicing taqiyyah (dissimulation). They claim to be followers of the twelve imams, yet they are the most humiliated. What support of Islam was achieved by these twelve, as they claim? Many of the Jews, when they became Muslim, became Shi‘ah, because they read in the Torah mention of twelve, so they think that these are the ones. But that is not the case; rather these twelve (in the hadeeth) are the men of Quraysh who took positions of leadership and caliphate in the ummah; at their time Islam was strong, and this is well known. End quote. 

Minhaaj as-Sunnah, 8/173-174 

Al-Haafiz Ibn Katheer (may Allah have mercy on him) said: 

This hadeeth indicates the inevitability of there being twelve just caliphs, but they are not the twelve imams of the Shi‘ah. Many of the latter had no power at all, whereas these (caliphs mentioned in the hadeeth) will be of Quraysh, and they will have power and will be just. End quote. 

Tafseer al-Qur’an al-‘Azeem, 6/78 

Shaykh ‘Uthmaan al-Khamees (may Allah preserve him) said: 

One may wonder: is it mere coincidence that the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said that twelve would rule or be in charge of the Muslims, and the number of the imams of the Shi‘ah is twelve? 

Answer: 

This is not a coincidence. The early Shi‘ah never had this idea of twelve imams. Hence the Shi‘ah divided into many sects. Some Shi‘ah believe that only ‘Ali was an imam; they are the Saba’is, who stopped at that point. Another group said that he was an imam, as were al-Hasan, al-Husayn and Muhammad ibn ‘Ali; they are the Keesaanis, and they stopped at Muhammad. Another group said that the imamate went up to Ja‘far then stopped. And another group said that al-Muntazar (the awaited one) is also an imam; they are the Ithna ‘Asharis (Twelvers). And there are other groups and many other divisions. Anyone who wishes to know more may refer to an-Noobakhti’s book on the Shi‘ah sects. 

So you can see that the idea of twelve imams came very late, because this idea did not exist among the early Shi‘ah; the hadeeths they quote were fabricated after the death of the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) and even after the death of most of the imams of the Shi‘ah. 

Thus it will become clear to you that the Shi‘ah are the ones who made this number match the number in the hadeeth of the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him). 

Finally, I say that the sound report is the one that says “all of them from Quraysh”. The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) would not have mentioned this general claim if he had meant something more specific; doing so is contrary to eloquence, and the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) was the most eloquent of people. 

For example, I would not say, “I am going to give a hundred dinars to every Arab,” then if an Egyptian comes to me, I tell him that I meant every Syrian. Is he not going to accuse me of being foolish and unable to express myself, and tell me that in that case I should have said “every Syrian”? 

If the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) had meant ‘Ali and his sons, he would have said, “They are ‘Ali and his sons.” Even if he had said “All of them from Banu Haashim,” that would have been eloquent. Banu Haashim were many, and Quraysh were more numerous, but the report speaks of them (Quraysh). If at-Tijaani [who wrote a book in support of Shi‘i ideas] and others quote this hadeeth as evidence because it matches the number they have, then what would they say about the hadeeth narrated by Imam Muslim in his Saheeh (2779), according to which the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Among my ummah there will be twelve hypocrites; they will not enter Paradise or even smell its fragrance, until the camel goes through the eye of the needle”? End quote. 

Kashf al-Jaani Muhammad at-Tijaani (a refutation of at-Tijaani’s book), p. 75 ff 

And Allah knows best.

Do sunni ulema have any consensus on these 12 names of caliphs?

Do sunni have any hadith of the prophet mentioning 12 names  of caliphs (other than 12 imams from the progeny of the prophet)?

 

Edited April 28, 2016 by skamran110

[Follower of Truth 46]

1 hour ago, skamran110 said:

Do sunni ulema have any consensus on these 12 names of caliphs?

Do sunni have any hadith of the prophet mentioning 12 names  of caliphs (other than 12 imams from the progeny of the prophet)?

 

no. sunni ulema has no consensus over 12 names of caliph. have you read the article you quoted? here all views are given. there are several views about it. like many other matters in this matter differences of opinion among scholars.

no. there is no sunni hadith mentioning the names. if mentioned then there would not arise differences of opinion.

[Muslim2010 3,523]

16 minutes ago, Follower of Truth said:

no. sunni ulema has no consensus over 12 names of caliph. have you read the article you quoted? here all views are given. there are several views about it. like many other matters in this matter differences of opinion among scholars.

no. there is no sunni hadith mentioning the names. if mentioned then there would not arise differences of opinion.

Thus it confirms that here is no set of 12 names other than 12 names of Imams from the progeny of the prophet. So this is matter of concern for sunni as there is no authenticity of those whom they follow in the absence of hadith for 12 names (as 12 caliphs hadith are mentioned in their sahih books).

Edited April 28, 2016 by skamran110

[Follower of Truth 46]

4 minutes ago, skamran110 said:

Thus it confirms that here is set of 12 names other than 12 names of Imams from the progeny of the prophet. So this is matter of concern for sunni as there is no authenticity of those whom they follow in the absence of hadith for 12 names (as 12 caliphs are mentioned in their shaih books).

like many shia it seems that you are prejudiced with ridiculous notions like 'sunni follow abu bakr, umar, uthman, muawiah' etc etc. that's why you are commenting such. ahlus sunnah only follows rasul sm as final authority. no other else is final authority except rasul sm  whether it is four rightly guided caliph or others. yes they follow good examples of any pious person including the above mentioned persons as far as they don't contradict quran and sunnah of rasul sm. you need to read books on aqida and fiqh written by sunni scholars.

you can not exploit the hadith about twelve caliphs only because accidentally the numbers are similar. in sahih muslim there is other hadith which it is mentioned that there will appear 12 hypocrites in future. so will i apply this to the 12 alleged imams of shia? may Allah forbid and forgive. in hadith twelve caliphs were called as rulers. and except ali and hasan none of them were rulers. the hadiths also state clearly that religion will be strong and triumphant during their reign. but most supposed imams were  persecuted and humiliated during their time and failed to attain state power. so no possibility of the correlation between 12 caliph rulers and supposed imams.

ahlus sunnah reject the idea that after demise of prophet any prophet-like successor would come. because Allah perfected and finished religion at prophet's hand. however the supposed imams of shia are pious people according to ahlus sunnah except the last one who does not exist at all. so if from authentic source their good examples are found then they are followed. ahlus sunnah does not care about the names of the caliphs because rasul sm hadn't told the name.

[Muslim2010 3,523]

1 hour ago, Follower of Truth said:

like many shia it seems that you are prejudiced with ridiculous notions like 'sunni follow abu bakr, umar, uthman, muawiah' etc etc. that's why you are commenting such. ahlus sunnah only follows rasul sm as final authority. no other else is final authority except rasul sm  whether it is four rightly guided caliph or others. yes they follow good examples of any pious person including the above mentioned persons as far as they don't contradict quran and sunnah of rasul sm. you need to read books on aqida and fiqh written by sunni scholars.

you can not exploit the hadith about twelve caliphs only because accidentally the numbers are similar. in sahih muslim there is other hadith which it is mentioned that there will appear 12 hypocrites in future. so will i apply this to the 12 alleged imams of shia? may Allah forbid and forgive. in hadith twelve caliphs were called as rulers. and except ali and hasan none of them were rulers. the hadiths also state clearly that religion will be strong and triumphant during their reign. but most supposed imams were  persecuted and humiliated during their time and failed to attain state power. so no possibility of the correlation between 12 caliph rulers and supposed imams.

ahlus sunnah reject the idea that after demise of prophet any prophet-like successor would come. because Allah perfected and finished religion at prophet's hand. however the supposed imams of shia are pious people according to ahlus sunnah except the last one who does not exist at all. so if from authentic source their good examples are found then they are followed. ahlus sunnah does not care about the names of the caliphs because rasul sm hadn't told the name.

1- The sunni follow the prophet through the good examples. The prophet have mentioned those will be 12 caliphs who are they you do not know. yet the claim is they follow the rightly guided ones. 

2-  Do you really follow the prophet? I doubt it your are really going to the limits of blasphemy by disrespecting the progeny of the prophet as 12 imams are from the linage of the prophet. It seems  Youare unaware of the verses of quran like (33:33) that declare that Allah swt has kept all blemishes away from Ahl albayat, yet you dare to mention or compare them as hypocrites.

3.  If there was no successor the how Abu bakr was selected against the sunna of the prophet? If there was no successor after the prophet then why Abu bakr selected umar as his successor? Was Abu baaklr more knowledgeable then the prophet? As Abu bakr knew to select his successor and the prophet did not?

The prophet has clearly defined his 12 successors / imams / caliphs by name by mentioning each and every one out of 12. The first one is Imam Alui and the last one is Al-Mahdi.

The sunnis remain unaware of it, but their sources mention these names. 

These names are also mentioned in Shia narrations 

it is very easy to blaim the prophet that he did not inform the ummah about 12 caliphs/ successors/ imam names but difficult to accept the truth.

Wassalam

Edited April 28, 2016 by skamran110

[Follower of Truth 46]

8 hours ago, skamran110 said:

1- The sunni follow the prophet through the good examples. The prophet have mentioned those will be 12 caliphs who are they you do not know. yet the claim is they follow the rightly guided ones.

bro, have you linguistic problem to understand? have you read my post? or you are blind to accuse? ahlus sunnah doesn't follow anyone except rasul sm in the way of guidance. only rasul sm is one who is source of guidance. none other else. shia claim their imams are also source of guidance like prophet and their status is similar to prophet. the first four caliph are khulafa rashidun or rightly guided caliph because their reign of caliphate was imbued with prophetic guidance. it is very essential Allah made religion perfect at his prophet's hand as stated in surah maida, verse 3. so no need to send any prophet-like figure like 'imams' of shia who are infallible, source of guidance just like prophet pbuh. none among ahlus sunnah claimed ever that four rightly caliphs are source of guidance.

so only rasul sm is the only one for this ummah who is entitled to have absolute obedience. none else. as i said in my previous post, that as for other pious persons including sahaba, tabiin or anyone else we can follow their good examples and leave the contrary.

[Follower of Truth 46]

8 hours ago, skamran110 said:

2-  Do you really follow the prophet? I doubt it your are really going to the limits of blasphemy by disrespecting the progeny of the prophet as 12 imams are from the linage of the prophet. It seems  Youare unaware of the verses of quran like (33:33) that declare that Allah swt has kept all blemishes away from Ahl albayat, yet you dare to mention or compare them as hypocrites.

again i am compelled to say that you have either linguistic problem to understand or you are crazy to adverse and accuse your counterparts. from where in my post i disrespected the progeny of prophet? and i am quite surprised that you are accusing me of comparing them to hypocrites. innalillah. read the post again. i said that as hadith mentions about twelve caliphs and twelver shias believes in twelve imams, so if you try to exploit the similarity of the number, then their are hadith of emerging twelve hypocrite. so will i apply this hadith to the twelve imams because numbers are similar? this is my argument. only similarity in number does not matter. so when i dared to compare them with hypocrites?

again i am saying that the hadiths of twelve caliphs say that they will be ruler. except ali and hasan, may Allah be pleased with them, which of your 'imams' were ruler, can you tell me? the hadith says their reign will be of power and strength for religion, whereas it is the fact that except ali and hasan none of them were power and strength for religion as they had no political leadership. the hadiths of 12 caliphs are crystal clear that they are political leaders of power and strength. but does not resemble to the so called twelve imams.

christians believe jesus to be son of Allah. so if they say that muslims disrespect jesus rejecting his being son of Allah then it will be same when you accuse someone of disrespecting a few people of prophet's progeny because they reject them to be prophet-like infallible figure and source of sharia which is false belief. ahlus sunnah regard ali, hasan and hussain as noble relatives and companions of prophet. they regard all other figures whom ithna asharis claim to be ' infallible imams' to be pious and noble parsons. but the last one the so called 'hidden mahdi' is a imaginary figure and [Edited Out] and bull story.

[Follower of Truth 46]

8 hours ago, skamran110 said:

3.  If there was no successor the how Abu bakr was selected against the sunna of the prophet? If there was no successor after the prophet then why Abu bakr selected umar as his successor? Was Abu baaklr more knowledgeable then the prophet? As Abu bakr knew to select his successor and the prophet did not?

yes. there was no successor. rasul sm didn't appoint anyone as his successor. abu bakr was selected as caliph by the vast majority of companions after rasul's demise. your question is too ridiculous. for every country or land their must be a ruler to lead people. rasul sm was not only a prophet but he was a ruler of islamic lands. so after his demise a ruler is needed to run the affairs of the people, declaring jihad against non believers and spreading islam to far corners of the world as far as possible. abu bakr became caliph with shura and consultation with people. ali himself gave his allegiance to him. rather he was one of his consultants. if ali was divine successor it was haram for him to pledge allegiance, and help him and take part in jihad under his shade. umar was proposed as next caliph by abu bakr because he him the fittest person for this post. in this case again consultation took place. as majority supported his proposal ultimate decision to make him caliph was implemented and again ali pledged allegiance to umar and become consultant for him.

it is from mutawatir (a narration which is narrated at every stage by so many narrators that it is inconceivable to be a lie) narrations that ali used to say during his reign that the best of this ummah is abu bakr and after that umar. it is also narrated in zaidi shia books in numerous numbers.

[Follower of Truth 46]

9 hours ago, skamran110 said:

It seems  Youare unaware of the verses of quran like (33:33) that declare that Allah swt has kept all blemishes away from Ahl albayat,

it seems that you as well as many other shia does not care about the actual meaning of any ayah. you are quoting surah ahzab. read the whole surah. and you are quoting ayah 33. read specially from 30. you can see that the discussion is about the wives of prophet. here 'ahlul bayt'  denotes to his wives, it is so clear that no explanation need. then Allah says that he want to take away blemish from them. Allah gave some instruction and admonition to rasul's wives ans pointed out that the reason of these instruction and admonition is with a view to taking away blemish from them.

[Muslim2010 3,523]

16 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

bro, have you linguistic problem to understand? have you read my post? or you are blind to accuse? ahlus sunnah doesn't follow anyone except rasul sm in the way of guidance. only rasul sm is one who is source of guidance. none other else. shia claim their imams are also source of guidance like prophet and their status is similar to prophet. the first four caliph are khulafa rashidun or rightly guided caliph because their reign of caliphate was imbued with prophetic guidance. it is very essential Allah made religion perfect at his prophet's hand as stated in surah maida, verse 3. so no need to send any prophet-like figure like 'imams' of shia who are infallible, source of guidance just like prophet pbuh. none among ahlus sunnah claimed ever that four rightly caliphs are source of guidance.

so only rasul sm is the only one for this ummah who is entitled to have absolute obedience. none else. as i said in my previous post, that as for other pious persons including sahaba, tabiin or anyone else we can follow their good examples and leave the contrary.

-       How you can prove that first 3 caliphs are rightly guided? Can you elaborate with evidences?

-    If the prophet alone is the only source of guidance then how you can follow the good examples? This a contradictory statement when as per your claim no one after the prophet has right to be obeyed?

    If you claim that the prophet is only source of guidance then we do have verse of quran that states we have people whom obedience is same as that of the prophet.

-          Verse 4:59

-          يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ

-          Sahih International: O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you.4:59

-     Atiu وَأَطِيعُوا has been used once for both the prophet and ulil Amr minkum since both have the same authority on us.

  According to the Qur'an, there is always an Imam / leader ( for guidance) on the earth (13:7):

   إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُنذِرٌ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ

    You are only a warner, and there is a guide for every people. 

    So  who is the present guide for us who is different than the prophet saw?

 

Edited April 29, 2016 by skamran110

[Muslim2010 3,523]

16 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

again i am saying that the hadiths of twelve caliphs say that they will be ruler. except ali and hasan, may Allah be pleased with them, which of your 'imams' were ruler, can you tell me? the hadith says their reign will be of power and strength for religion, whereas it is the fact that except ali and hasan none of them were power and strength for religion as they had no political leadership. the hadiths of 12 caliphs are crystal clear that they are political leaders of power and strength. but does not resemble to the so called twelve imams.

The answer comes from the history that Allah swt has sent 1,24, 000 prophets fro the guidance of the people and only a few of them were actually rulers .

Does it mean that they were not prophet from Al;lah swt fro the guidance of the people? 

for 12 caliphs / successors /Imams we have the following hadith:

In Sahih Muslim, the traditions are as follows:

Narrated Jabir Ibn Samura:

The Prophet (S) said: "The matter (life) will not end, until it is passed by twelve Caliphs.”He then whispered a sentence. I asked my father what the Prophet said. He said, the Prophet added: "All of them will be from Quraish."

إنَّ هذا الامر لا ينقضي حتَّى يمضي فيهم إثْنا عشر خليفة. ثمَّ تكلم بكلام خفيٍّ. فقلتُ لإبي: ما قال؟ قال: كلُّهُم من قريش.

Sunni references:

- Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, Kitab al-Imaara, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v3, p1452, Tradition #5

- Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraish and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraish), v3, p1009, Tradition #4477

Also in another wording, the Messenger of Allah uses the word "Imam”instead of "Caliph". It is widely narrated that:

The Prophet (S) said: "The Imams are from Quraish"

ألأئِمة من قُريش.

Sunni references:

- al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p149

- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal

- Sahih al-Nisa’i, from Anas Ibn Malik

- Sunan, by al-Baihaqi

- al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqa, by Ibn Hajar al-Haithami, Ch. 11, section 2, p287

The successor of the Prophet (or the preceding Caliph) should come immediately after the demise of the Prophet (or the preceding Caliph). If there is any gap between the successors, the word "successor”does not make any sense. So successors should come right after the other without any gap. Also as the Prophet (S) suggested in the above traditions, those twelve Caliphs will cover till the day of resurrection.

we know that by the above traditions the Holy Prophet (S) meant the twelve Imams from his Ahlul-Bait who are the descendants of the Prophet since we have no other 12 pure candidates in the history of Islam upon whose righteousness all Muslims agree. It is interesting to know that even the enemies of Shi’a have NOT been able to find any fault in the virtues of the twelve Imams of Shi’a. Moreover these twelve Imams came one after another without any gap.

 from Sahih Ibn Hibban:

أخبرنا أبو يعلى قال : حدثنا محمد بن يزيد بن رفاعة قال : حدثنا أبو بكر بن عياش عن عاصم بن أبي النجود عن أبي صالح عن معاوية قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم : ( من مات وليس له إمام مات ميتة جاهلية )

Narrated Mu'awiyah:

The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said: "Whosoever dies without having an Imam, dies a death of Jahiliyyah."

Shaykh al-Arnaut comments on the hadith:

حديث صحيح

A sahih hadith.

Edited April 29, 2016 by skamran110

[Muslim2010 3,523]

16 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

yes. there was no successor. rasul sm didn't appoint anyone as his successor. abu bakr was selected as caliph by the vast majority of companions after rasul's demise. your question is too ridiculous. for every country or land their must be a ruler to lead people. rasul sm was not only a prophet but he was a ruler of islamic lands. so after his demise a ruler is needed to run the affairs of the people, declaring jihad against non believers and spreading islam to far corners of the world as far as possible. abu bakr became caliph with shura and consultation with people. ali himself gave his allegiance to him. rather he was one of his consultants. if ali was divine successor it was haram for him to pledge allegiance, and help him and take part in jihad under his shade. umar was proposed as next caliph by abu bakr because he him the fittest person for this post. in this case again consultation took place. as majority supported his proposal ultimate decision to make him caliph was implemented and again ali pledged allegiance to umar and become consultant for him.

it is from mutawatir (a narration which is narrated at every stage by so many narrators that it is inconceivable to be a lie) narrations that ali used to say during his reign that the best of this ummah is abu bakr and after that umar. it is also narrated in zaidi shia books in numerous numbers.

1- I have already mentioned that you consider that the Abu bakr was chosen as caliph after the prophet and he was aware that a leader after him was needed to run the affairs of the Islamic government, and the prophet did not know that after him a caliph  / successor was  needed after him to run the affairs of the government? How it is possible the most knowledgeable man in this world by the blessing of Al;lah swt was so ignorant? This is nothing but a blunt lie and clear bl-aim on the prophet saww.

There are many examples in Qur’an where Allah states that He is the one who assigns a successor on the earth. Allah, Exalted He is, states in Qur’an:

"O’ David, we assigned you as Caliph (successor) on the earth ...”(Qur’an 38:26)

He also states:

"... We have assigned you (Abraham) as Imam (leader) for people ...”(Qur’an 2:124)

As we see, Caliph/Imam for the mankind is assigned by Allah. See also 2:30 (about Adam). Even Prophet Moses, when he wanted to go to Miqaat, did not ask people to form a Shura to assign a Caliph for him. Qur’an tells us that:

(Moses said: "O’ Allah) assign me a vizier from my family, (that is) my brother Aaron (Haroon)...,”(Allah) said: "We granted your requests, O’ Moses.”(Qur’an 20:29-36).

Allah, Exalted, also said:

"Surely We gave the book to Moses and assigned his brother Aaron as his vizier.”(Qur’an 25:35).

Allah also said:

"... And Moses said unto his brother Aaron: Take my place among the people.”(Qur’an 7:142).

وَقَالَ مُوسَىٰ لِأَخِيهِ هَارُونَ اخْلُفْنِي فِي قَوْمِي

Notice that "Ukhlufni”and "Khalifa”(Caliph) are exactly from the same root.

In this connection, let us take a look at the following interesting tradition in Sahih al-Bukhari:

The Messenger of Allah said to ‘Ali: "Your position to me is like the position of Aaron (Haroon) to Moses, except that there shall be no Prophet after me"

أنتَ مني بمنزلة هارون من موسى إلا إنَّهُ لا نبيَّ بعدي

Sunni References:

(1) Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English version, Traditions 5.56, 5.700

(2) Sahih Muslim, Arabic, v4, pp 1870-71

(3) Sunan Ibn Majah, p12

(4) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p174

(5) al-Khasa’is, by al-Nisa’i, pp 15-16

(6) Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, p309

Th people cannot chose the prophet so then canvnot chose the caliph / successor after the prophet by consultation.

The prophet nominated his successor at theghaderr khum:

Then the Messenger of Allah continued: "Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?”People cried and answered: "Yes, O’ Messenger of God.”Then Prophet (S) held up the hand of ‘Ali and said: "Whoever I am his leader (Mawla), ‘Ali is his leader (Mawla). O’ God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him."

ألَسْتُ أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم؟ قالوا بلى يارسول الله. قال: من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه. اللهم وال من والاه و عاد من عاداه.

Some of the Sunni references:

(1) Sahih Tirmidhi, v2, p298, v5, p63
(2) Sunan Ibn Maja, v1, pp 12,43
(3) Khasa’is, by al-Nisa’i, pp 4,21
(4) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p129, v3, pp 109-110,116,371
(5) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,118,119,152,330, v4, pp 281,368,370, 372,378, v5, pp 35,347,358,361,366,419 (from 40 chains of narrators)
(6) Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, pp 563,572
(7) Majma’ al-Zawa’id, by al-Haythami, v9, p103 (from several transmitters)
(8) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50
(9) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v3, p19
(10) Tarikh al-Khulafa, by al-Suyuti, pp 169,173
(11) al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah, by Ibn Kathir, v3, p213, v5, p208
(12) Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn Athir, v4, p114
(13) Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, pp 307-308
(14) Habib al-Siyar, by Mir Khand, v1, part 3, p144
(15) Sawaiq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, p26
(16) al-Isabah, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v2, p509; v1, part1, p319, v2, part1, p57, v3, part1, p29, v4, part 1, pp 14,16,143
(17) Tabarani, who narrated from companions such as Ibn Umar, Malik Ibn al-Hawirath, Habashi Ibn Junadah, Jari, Sa’d Ibn Abi Waqqas, Anas Ibn Malik, Ibn Abbas, Amarah,Buraydah,...
(18) Tarikh, by al-Khatib Baghdadi, v8, p290
(19) Hilyatul Awliya’, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu’aym, v4, p23, v5, pp26-27
(20) al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, Chapter of word "ayn”(‘Ali), v2, p462
(21) Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, pp 154,397
(22) al-Mirqat, v5, p568
(23) al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v2, p172
(24) Dhaka’ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p68
(25) Faydh al-Qadir, by al-Manawi, v6, p217
(26) Yanabi’ al-Mawaddah, by al-Qudoozi al-Hanafi, p297 ... And hundreds more. Please see part 3 for more classified references (traditionists, historians, and commentators).

If you are aware of the happening at saqifa then why imama Ali and other bani hashim did not give oath to Abubakr?

Why Imsm Ali gave oath after 6 months of demise of the prophet and after the death of Fatima?

 

 

Edited April 29, 2016 by skamran110

[Althaqalayn12 59]

On 4/28/2016 at 10:19 AM, Follower of Truth said:

like many shia it seems that you are prejudiced with ridiculous notions like 'sunni follow abu bakr, umar, uthman, muawiah' etc etc. that's why you are commenting such. ahlus sunnah only follows rasul sm as final authority. no other else is final authority except rasul sm  whether it is four rightly guided caliph or others.

Actually that's a lie. "ahlul sunnah" Follow omar and abu bakr and uthman and not the prophet or else they wouldn't pray differently, do wudoo differently, follow the wrong people, or change the sunnah of the prophet like omar who changed the divorce from 3 into 1 and many more. Those are a few big ones. The wudoo is in the Quran, and "ahlul sunnah" still do the wudoo differently...If you do something wrong that is as clear as sunshine in the Quran, what do you expect the "Ahlul sunnah " to do with the rest of the sunnah of the prophet?

[Muslim2010 3,523]

On 4/29/2016 at 8:51 AM, Follower of Truth said:

it seems that you as well as many other shia does not care about the actual meaning of any ayah. you are quoting surah ahzab. read the whole surah. and you are quoting ayah 33. read specially from 30. you can see that the discussion is about the wives of prophet. here 'ahlul bayt'  denotes to his wives, it is so clear that no explanation need. then Allah says that he want to take away blemish from them. Allah gave some instruction and admonition to rasul's wives ans pointed out that the reason of these instruction and admonition is with a view to taking away blemish from them.

The hadiths narrated by wives of the prophet clearly indicate and identify Ali, Fatima, Hasan, hussain as as the Ahl labayt of the prophet alone,  covered under the scope of the verse (33:33), They never claimed to be included among them. the haidfth narrated by the wives of the prophet are given at the link below:

 

 

[Faruk 1,341]

On ‎28‎-‎4‎-‎2016 at 7:19 PM, Follower of Truth said:

like many shia it seems that you are prejudiced with ridiculous notions like 'sunni follow abu bakr, umar, uthman, muawiah' etc etc. that's why you are commenting such. ahlus sunnah only follows rasul sm as final authority. no other else is final authority except rasul sm  whether it is four rightly guided caliph or others. yes they follow good examples of any pious person including the above mentioned persons as far as they don't contradict quran and sunnah of rasul sm. you need to read books on aqida and fiqh written by sunni scholars.

Then what was meant with the condition for the election of the third caliph:

To follow Quran, Sunnah of the Prophet s.a.w. and the Sirah of the previous two?

Doesn't their sirah becomes a part of Islam and an obligation for the Ummah to follow?

And what about the Two Weighty Things: Quran and Ahlul Bayt a.s. during the Umayyad Dynasty in which they were cursed in Friday Prayers?

How could a religious authority that represented Islam and which negated the second basic fundamental of it lead the Ummah?

 

Edited April 30, 2016 by Faruk

[Faruk 1,341]

Edit

Edited April 30, 2016 by Faruk

[Abul Hussain Hassani 198]

On 26 April 2016 at 1:41 PM, mohsenhona said:

 

There are variety of Hadiths assert the number of successors after the Prophet Muhammad in Sunni hadith books.

Bukhari (Vol:4):

حدثنی محمد بن المثنی، حدثنا غندر، حدثنا شعیبة، عن عبدالملک سمت جابر بن سمرة قال: سمعت النبی صلی الله علیه و سلم یقول: یکون اثنی عشر امیرا فقال کلمة لم اسمعها قفال ابی: انه قال: کلهم من قریش.

        The commanders are twelve and all of them are form Quraish.

Muslim (Ketab al-Emara): he narrated this hadith from five ways.

       This issue is not done until twelve successors come and all of them are from Quraish.

Well, now the question from our Sunni brothers is that “who are the twelve successors after the prophet (peace be upon him and his projeny)?"

Please mention their names one by one.

Thanks.

 

 

 

 

Please check this article (it also discuss Shia and Sunni view).

[Muslim2010 3,523]

This topic has been discussed in detail in this forum already. details can be seen at the link below:

 

Edited May 1, 2016 by skamran110

[Follower of Truth 46]

On 4/29/2016 at 1:10 AM, skamran110 said:

-       How you can prove that first 3 caliphs are rightly guided? Can you elaborate with evidences?

-    If the prophet alone is the only source of guidance then how you can follow the good examples? This a contradictory statement when as per your claim no one after the prophet has right to be obeyed?

    If you claim that the prophet is only source of guidance then we do have verse of quran that states we have people whom obedience is same as that of the prophet.

-          Verse 4:59

-          يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ

-          Sahih International: O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you.4:59

-     Atiu وَأَطِيعُوا has been used once for both the prophet and ulil Amr minkum since both have the same authority on us.

  According to the Qur'an, there is always an Imam / leader ( for guidance) on the earth (13:7):

   إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُنذِرٌ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ

    You are only a warner, and there is a guide for every people. 

    So  who is the present guide for us who is different than the prophet saw?

 

The reply to the matters raised by you are as follows:

-the first three caliphs are rightly guided as seen from their lives. both before and after prophet's death they sacrificed their lifetime, their wealth, their strength for the cause of islam. their lives are full of piety, devoutness for religion. so it is decided that they are rightly guided. it is ali, may Allah be pleased with him, who used to say in khutbah, 'the best of this ummah is abu bakr, then umar.' this is proven from mutawatir narrations. the golden history from authentic sources proves them to be rightly guided. yes, they are not masum or infallible.

-suppose you respect ayatollah khomeini. if you say that we should follow the path of khomeini, then does it mean that imam khomeini is source of sharia? does it mean that he is infallible? no, you mean that we should follow the good example, dood manners, good characteristics of him. it is same with the rightly guided caliphs. so don't be caught foolish thought.

-again the you proved how, many shias either fail to understand quranic meaning or deliberately distort the meaning getting out of context. the reference you gave itself is a prove that you are wrong. lets see the ayah you gave,

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

notice carefully. here in the second part Allah says when any dispute arises then he ordered us to refer back Allah and his prophet but no mention of 'those in authority'. so the matter is clear that those in authority has no entitlement to be source of sharia. here it means the muslim rulers as the famous mufassirs or quran exegetes pointed out. they have to be obeyed for the discipline of muslim affairs until they contradict quran and sunnah.

-another funny example of your understanding of quranic ayah. in 13:7 Allah says that there is no nation of the world for whom Allah has not sent prophet. whether it is in arab, in india, in china, in europe everywhere Allah has sent warners. but people deluded away from the true path. this is evident from the context of that ayah. but you are presenting this ayah as a support for secret. hiding so called 'imam' who even does not exist. i thing you know that between prophet isa and prophet muhammad there were differene of at list 550 years. so who was the 'hiding imam' in this period according to your understanding(?) of this ayah?

[Muslim2010 3,523]

On 4/30/2016 at 6:51 AM, Althaqalayn12 said:

Actually that's a lie. "ahlul sunnah" Follow omar and abu bakr and uthman and not the prophet or else they wouldn't pray differently, do wudoo differently, follow the wrong people, or change the sunnah of the prophet like omar who changed the divorce from 3 into 1 and many more. Those are a few big ones. The wudoo is in the Quran, and "ahlul sunnah" still do the wudoo differently...If you do something wrong that is as clear as sunshine in the Quran, what do you expect the "Ahlul sunnah " to do with the rest of the sunnah of the prophet?

Marvelous words very true.

[Ibn Matta 6]

It says either Caliphs or Rulers. Only the first 2 of your Imams were ever Khulafah or Rulers of the Muslim Ummah so the first thing thats apparent is that its not your Imams after al-Hasan (Radiyallaahu 'Anhu). 

 

Secondly the 12 rulers after is disputed by scholars. Some would exclude certain rulers because they did not consolidate power. Others have the interesting view that these are the rulers after the rightly guided Khilafah i.e. the Khilafah of kings (this is predicted by Rasul Allaah in other Ahadith).

Thirdly why is it important? Rasul Allaah doesn't emphasise its importance at all, certainly not as something your deen relies upon. 

 

Fourthly there is no mention that these rulers will be just. A Ruler is a Ruler regardless of whether hes good or not (as the prophet tells us of rulers coming after us who will be cruel). 

 

Fifthly. Doesnt say there won't be any after.

 

Dont know why you're gassing this up so much. Its proves nothing other than that there will be 12 muslim rulers (which there were and one of them isnt in Fairyland)

[Ibn Matta 6]

On 30/04/2016 at 2:51 AM, Althaqalayn12 said:

Actually that's a lie. "ahlul sunnah" Follow omar and abu bakr and uthman and not the prophet or else they wouldn't pray differently, do wudoo differently, follow the wrong people, or change the sunnah of the prophet like omar who changed the divorce from 3 into 1 and many more. Those are a few big ones. The wudoo is in the Quran, and "ahlul sunnah" still do the wudoo differently...If you do something wrong that is as clear as sunshine in the Quran, what do you expect the "Ahlul sunnah " to do with the rest of the sunnah of the prophet?

please dont be pathetic and change the subject to wudu' (which has been answered in detail many times), coward move.

 

Secondly might I ask what the Shi'ah have to do with Sunnah? How many narrations do you have from Rasul Allaah compared to how many we have. Most of your narrations are from al-Baqir and as-Sadiq let alone even 'Ali or al-Hasan. 

 

Also funny you should bring up Salah considering its exactly as it us in Sunni Ahadith. I could just as easily say the same about Shias.

 

Also when it says if there were a prophet after me it would be 'Umar. Its obviously not saying 'Umar is like a prophet. 

 

Btw you follow the Kufans not Ahlulbayt. 

[Althaqalayn12 59]

16 hours ago, Ibn Matta said:

please dont be pathetic and change the subject to wudu' (which has been answered in detail many times), coward move.

Secondly might I ask what the Shi'ah have to do with Sunnah? How many narrations do you have from Rasul Allaah compared to how many we have. Most of your narrations are from al-Baqir and as-Sadiq let alone even 'Ali or al-Hasan. 

Also funny you should bring up Salah considering its exactly as it us in Sunni Ahadith. I could just as easily say the same about Shias.

Also when it says if there were a prophet after me it would be 'Umar. Its obviously not saying 'Umar is like a prophet. 

Btw you follow the Kufans not Ahlulbayt. 

Buddy go learn how to do wudo correctly, then hit me up...second of all speaking of ahadith about the prophet s.a.a.w.w., we the shia have the golden chain of narration who are ahlul bayt a.s. unlike your books which has over 300+ unknown narrators in the chain of narrators. let alone your ahadith that are insult to Allah and islam that say Allah put's his leg astaghfirallah in hell, or that the prophet forgets quranic verses...please...save yourself some pride and walk away before I unleash everything that I know in sunni books that will make you turn into an atheist.

 

Second of all there is no such hadith about omar being like a prophet...you can lie to ignorant people not me...I can tell you exactly what bukhari and muslim say about omar though that will make sure you never bring his name up again. I promised to keep my comments family friendly.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Althaqalayn12

[Muslim2010 3,523]

17 hours ago, Ibn Matta said:

It says either Caliphs or Rulers. Only the first 2 of your Imams were ever Khulafah or Rulers of the Muslim Ummah so the first thing thats apparent is that its not your Imams after al-Hasan (Radiyallaahu 'Anhu). 

The answer comes from the history that Allah swt has sent 1,24, 000 prophets for the guidance of the people and only a few of them were actually rulers .

Does it mean that they were not prophet from Al;lah swt for the guidance of the people? 

The guided imams are chosen by Allah swt for the guidance of the people.

 

Edited May 5, 2016 by skamran110

[Muslim2010 3,523]

17 hours ago, Ibn Matta said:

Secondly the 12 rulers after is disputed by scholars. Some would exclude certain rulers because they did not consolidate power. Others have the interesting view that these are the rulers after the rightly guided Khilafah i.e. the Khilafah of kings (this is predicted by Rasul Allaah in other Ahadith).

Thirdly why is it important? Rasul Allaah doesn't emphasise its importance at all, certainly not as something your deen relies upon. 

The caliphs as meant by the Prophet are defined in the hadith of the prophet by naming them that first one is Imam Ali and the 12th one is imam Al Mahdi. as per sunni and shia sources and there is no alternate set of 12 caliphs / imams duly verified by a single hadith of the prophet for their names.

So the importance of caliphate of 12 rulers  is not justified by any hadith of the prophet  this provides us sufficient evidence to reject the caliphate of first 3 caliphs.

 

[aIthaqalayn12 2]

17 hours ago, Ibn Matta said:

please dont be pathetic and change the subject to wudu' (which has been answered in detail many times), coward move.

 

Secondly might I ask what the Shi'ah have to do with Sunnah? How many narrations do you have from Rasul Allaah compared to how many we have. Most of your narrations are from al-Baqir and as-Sadiq let alone even 'Ali or al-Hasan. 

 

Also funny you should bring up Salah considering its exactly as it us in Sunni Ahadith. I could just as easily say the same about Shias.

 

Also when it says if there were a prophet after me it would be 'Umar. Its obviously not saying 'Umar is like a prophet. 

 

Btw you follow the Kufans not Ahlulbayt. 

Go learn how to do wudo correctly and come talk to me..waste of time..

Second of All There is no hadith that says if there was a prophet after me it would be omar, its a made up hadith because you people are jealous the prophet s.a.a.w.w. said Ali a.s. you are to me like Aaron a.s. was to Moses a.s....Our ahadith have the golden chain of narration, Ahlul bayt a.s...sunnis have 300+ majholeen aka non existen narrators LOL. Your books ontop fo that are insult to Allah and islam...Saying Allah put's his leg in hell astaghfir Allah and that the prophet forgets quranic verses. Buddy, spare your self the pride and walk away before I unleash everything I know about sunnis from bukhari and muslim that would make you turn into an atheist and curse omar until you die...let's keep it down there are young people watching this movie.

[Ibn Matta 6]

1 hour ago, skamran110 said:

The caliphs as meant by the Prophet are defined in the hadith of the prophet by naming them that first one is Imam Ali and the 12th one is imam Al Mahdi. as per sunni and shia sources and there is no alternate set of 12 caliphs / imams duly verified by a single hadith of the prophet for their names.

So the importance of caliphate of 12 rulers  is not justified by any hadith of the prophet  this provides us sufficient evidence to reject the caliphate of first 3 caliphs.

 

Brother with all due respect how can you consider that Hadith (which is mindnumbingly disconnected and obviously Mawdu') to be authentic when none of the Shia knew who exactly all 12 Imams were hence why nearly everytime one of them died there was 1 or 2 Shi'i groups declaring a different son to be the actual Imam or that the imam had actually gone into Ghaybah (such as in the case of Musa al-Kadhim whom the majority of his Shi'ah became Waqifi after he died). Think.

[Ibn Matta 6]

1 hour ago, skamran110 said:

The answer comes from the history that Allah swt has sent 1,24, 000 prophets for the guidance of the people and only a few of them were actually rulers .

Does it mean that they were not prophet from Al;lah swt for the guidance of the people? 

The guided imams are chosen by Allah swt for the guidance of the people.

 

*ultimate facepalm* 

Does the hadith say A'immah? No. 

Are the Prophets called Rulers? No.

The Hadith is talking about actual 'Umara (hence why it uses that word. Crazy right?) 

 

Your response is neither here nor there