Q. where is the freedom of choice , if non muslims are going to hell ?

[sakura1994]

Islam allow freedom of religion and Allah give humans freedom of choice and free will , so why are non believers can't go to heaven ?

* someone asked me this question and I want your help to reply to them .. thanks in advance .

Edited April 25, 2016 by sakura1994

[Quiet one]

God gave us free will but he also wants us to make the right choice because you can be free yet make the wrong decision so it is not easy to go to heaven

[Muslimthought97]

You go to hell if you deny the truth

In the Quran a 'Kafir' is one who has seen the truth but DENIES it.

A disbeliever = Kafir,

A non-believer = Ghair Mu'min

Believer = Mo'min

The majority of the west are on the non-believer side, because the way society is built and designed, is to never think outside the box of what they tell you, only consumerism. Many of them may have tried searching but either didn't make it in time/were warded away by the looks of ISIS. Please dont get the idea as alot say that all non-Muslims are 'Kafirs' for thats not true at all. They havent seen the truth of this religion to be able to deny it.

 

To answer the person:

Islam says we have free will and will not enforce the religion onto anyone, however you should be guided to it and if you do get guided then you most likely turn into a believer. However if you wish to deny it and live freely for the sake of desires then you will be sent to hell <- Look at the west today and how much corruption it has brought about, its because these people only want to fulfill desires and nothing else making mankind suffer, for disobeying and not showing your appreciation to Allah for he has made. So its not because of the idea of just disbelieving or sinning itself, but the impact you have.

Edited April 25, 2016 by HayderM

[sadegh]

First, free will means that we can choose whatever we want, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we are allowed to make those choices. This is true even if one is not a Muslim. An atheist can choose to kill himself or burn himself in fire, but he will never choose that, if he is sane. However, if he did choose to enter the fire, he can't say why is the fire burning me?!

Second, who said that non-believers can't go to Heaven? If a non-Muslim honestly tries his best to discover the truth and doesn't abandon any effort to find that, but doesn't conclude that Islam is the truth, such a person will go to Heaven, because he hasn't left any effort in attaining the truth but couldn't find it.

Peace!

Edited April 25, 2016 by sadegh

[Son of Placid]

I guess it depends on who is considered a non-believer.

If it means anyone who's not a Muslim then people have been teaching contrary to what the Quran says.

If it means those who obviously march to the beat of their own drum, then many have already heard and have chosen to ignore. This would include those who go through the motions for the sake of their piers.

In the end I believe God will seek those who sought and found Him, and reject those who sought their own glory in life without Him, regardless of what religion they started with. 

 

[Sumerian]

1 hour ago, HayderM said:

You go to hell if you deny the truth

In the Quran a 'Kafir' is one who has seen the truth but DENIES it.

A disbeliever = Kafir,

A non-believer = Ghair Mu'min

Believer = Mo'min

The majority of the west are on the non-believer side, because the way society is built and designed, is to never think outside the box of what they tell you, only consumerism. Many of them may have tried searching but either didn't make it in time/were warded away by the looks of ISIS. Please dont get the idea as alot say that all non-Muslims are 'Kafirs' for thats not true at all. They havent seen the truth of this religion to be able to deny it.

 

To answer the person:

Islam says we have free will and will not enforce the religion onto anyone, however you should be guided to it and if you do get guided then you most likely turn into a believer. However if you wish to deny it and live freely for the sake of desires then you will be sent to hell <- Look at the west today and how much corruption it has brought about, its because these people only want to fulfill desires and nothing else making mankind suffer, for disobeying and not showing your appreciation to Allah for he has made. So its not because of the idea of just disbelieving or sinning itself, but the impact you have.

Stop trying to play with definitions.

In Fiqh, the kafir is any non-Muslim, and any non-Muslim is najis (except for the Ahlul Kitab according to some Fuqaha).

[Sumerian]

1 hour ago, Son of Placid said:

I guess it depends on who is considered a non-believer.

If it means anyone who's not a Muslim then people have been teaching contrary to what the Quran says.

If it means those who obviously march to the beat of their own drum, then many have already heard and have chosen to ignore. This would include those who go through the motions for the sake of their piers.

In the end I believe God will seek those who sought and found Him, and reject those who sought their own glory in life without Him, regardless of what religion they started with. 

 

Don't know which Qur'an you're reading. 

This one?

And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers. [3:85]

Besides, Christians say only Christians will go to Heaven.

[Muslimthought97]

28 minutes ago, The Batman said:

Stop trying to play with definitions.

In Fiqh, the kafir is any non-Muslim, and any non-Muslim is najis (except for the Ahlul Kitab according to some Fuqaha).

Your joking...well according to the Quran your wrong.

This will give you some insight to the 'all non-muslims go to hell' ideology.

 

[Muslimthought97]

1 hour ago, sadegh said:

 

Second, who said that non-believers can't go to Heaven? If a non-Muslim honestly tries his best to discover the truth and doesn't abandon any effort to find that, but doesn't conclude that Islam is the truth, such a person will go to Heaven, because he hasn't left any effort in attaining the truth but couldn't find it.

Peace!

Thank you, this is how it is @batman

[Sumerian]

11 minutes ago, HayderM said:

Your joking...well according to the Quran your wrong.

This will give you some insight to the 'all non-muslims go to hell' ideology.

lol. When did the Holy Qur'an say non-Muslims are not kafir? Your video is really beside the point.

What your video is trying to point out is can a kafir go to Heaven.

And I also disagree with the video, insha Allah I will speak about this later.

Edited April 25, 2016 by The Batman

[Sumerian]

7 minutes ago, HayderM said:

Thank you, this is how it is @batman

I don't know which part of his comment is a contradiction to what I said?

[Sumerian]

Indeed, I have re-watched the video. And Dr Hasan Farhan makes a point about kuffar in Japan, and what not. The fact is Dr Hasan Farhan does not know or understand the Holy Qur'an more than Sayyed al-Sistani and other Jurists who say that all non-Muslims are kuffar.

I actually don't know why a Shi'a would rather follow the minhaj of Dr Hasan Farhan over the Shi'i Jurists, especially on an issue which can become a Jurisprudential issue.

[Muslimthought97]

50 minutes ago, The Batman said:

Indeed, I have re-watched the video. And Dr Hasan Farhan makes a point about kuffar in Japan, and what not. The fact is Dr Hasan Farhan does not know or understand the Holy Qur'an more than Sayyed al-Sistani and other Jurists who say that all non-Muslims are kuffar.

I actually don't know why a Shi'a would rather follow the minhaj of Dr Hasan Farhan over the Shi'i Jurists, especially on an issue which can become a Jurisprudential issue.

Only because I see it to be more logical, Imagine you were a non-muslim born into that family, you would do and learn from those around you and if you were brought up to think that clubbing/partying and having fun is the only important thing in life then it would be the last thought on your mind if theres a God and should I submit and all. When non-muslims meet me and let me speak to them about religion they become shocked, some cry. Its because they were trapped by societies ignorance this whole time. So what Im saying is Allah isnt going to go sending most non-muslims to hell because they were born into a society and world where its the last thing on anyones mind. Go back to the Prophets time when religion was a big thing and constantly told about it then the story would be much more different. With all due respect to Sistani and other jurists who make this ruling, but they dont seem to be taking into account our modern day compared to the Prophets so their perception from a logical and humane viewpoint is outdated so to speak.

Hope that made sense.

I pray for forgiveness on Humanity as a whole and Insha'Allah If im wrong I am guided from this thinking.

Edited April 25, 2016 by HayderM

[sefket83]

Allah allowed us to have free will and thus be able to be destructive but we can turn back and choose to obey instead. 

[amina_ibrahim]

5 hours ago, sadegh said:

Second, who said that non-believers can't go to Heaven? If a non-Muslim honestly tries his best to discover the truth and doesn't abandon any effort to find that, but doesn't conclude that Islam is the truth, such a person will go to Heaven, because he hasn't left any effort in attaining the truth but couldn't find it.

Peace!

If he doesn't conclude that islam is the truth, then what will help him go to heaven? Do you think it's fair if non-believers go to heaven aswell? Don't you think atheïsts make effort too and don't abandon that effort? Don't you know that they indeed don't find truth in islam? Have they made use of the effort they put in finding the truth?

No! They are ignorant people who don't want to see the truth. If one really has put enough effort in and still denies islam then that person is considered ignorant and I'm not sure if those kinds of people would even have a chance to see heaven.

[StrugglingForTheLight]

A good book on this: http://www.al-islam.org/islam-and-religious-pluralism-ayatullah-murtadha-mutahhari

[Son of Placid]

7 hours ago, The Batman said:

Don't know which Qur'an you're reading. 

This one?

 

 

Besides, Christians say only Christians will go to Heaven.

 More like this;

Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

 

Christians say what Christians say, kinda like Muslims. It's a good thing God is in charge.

[coldcow]

You have the free will to do a lot of things.  I can eat chocolate, I can drink alcohol, I can buy a car, I can gamble, I can committ murder, etc.  But there are consequences to every action, right?  The consequences of eating too much sweet stuff is getting fat, alcohol is damage to your body and mind, buying a car could be getting into too much debt, gambling could be losing all your money, murder would be prison.  The consequences of our actions and decisions might not always be apparent until after we're dead.  Just because you were in prison because you murdered someone doesn't mean you've atoned for that sin when judgement day arrives.  

 

Also, God is all knowing, all merciful, and all that stuff right?  Who's to say every non-believer is going to hell?  They say that a scale will be used to weigh your good vs your bad.  I'm sure He will be fair when the day comes.

[sefket83]

1 hour ago, coldcow said:

Also, God is all knowing, all merciful, and all that stuff right?  Who's to say every non-believer is going to hell?  They say that a scale will be used to weigh your good vs your bad.  I'm sure He will be fair when the day comes.

Intention decides

[Althaqalayn12]

Who said that they are ALL going to hell? 

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

قَالَ هَلْ آمَنُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ إِلَّا كَمَا أَمِنتُكُمْ عَلَىٰ أَخِيهِ مِن قَبْلُ ۖ فَاللَّهُ خَيْرٌ حَافِظًا ۖ وَهُوَ أَرْحَمُ الرَّاحِمِينَ  

صدق الله العلي العظيم

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

وَاكْتُبْ لَنَا فِي هَٰذِهِ الدُّنْيَا حَسَنَةً وَفِي الْآخِرَةِ إِنَّا هُدْنَا إِلَيْكَ ۚ قَالَ عَذَابِي أُصِيبُ بِهِ مَنْ أَشَاءُ ۖ وَرَحْمَتِي وَسِعَتْ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ ۚ فَسَأَكْتُبُهَا لِلَّذِينَ يَتَّقُونَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَالَّذِينَ هُم بِآيَاتِنَا يُؤْمِنُونَ

صدق الله العلي العظيم

[Althaqalayn12]

12 hours ago, The Batman said:

Indeed, I have re-watched the video. And Dr Hasan Farhan makes a point about kuffar in Japan, and what not. The fact is Dr Hasan Farhan does not know or understand the Holy Qur'an more than Sayyed al-Sistani and other Jurists who say that all non-Muslims are kuffar.

I actually don't know why a Shi'a would rather follow the minhaj of Dr Hasan Farhan over the Shi'i Jurists, especially on an issue which can become a Jurisprudential issue.

 

[Sumerian]

9 hours ago, HayderM said:

Only because I see it to be more logical, Imagine you were a non-muslim born into that family, you would do and learn from those around you and if you were brought up to think that clubbing/partying and having fun is the only important thing in life then it would be the last thought on your mind if theres a God and should I submit and all. When non-muslims meet me and let me speak to them about religion they become shocked, some cry. Its because they were trapped by societies ignorance this whole time. So what Im saying is Allah isnt going to go sending most non-muslims to hell because they were born into a society and world where its the last thing on anyones mind. Go back to the Prophets time when religion was a big thing and constantly told about it then the story would be much more different. With all due respect to Sistani and other jurists who make this ruling, but they dont seem to be taking into account our modern day compared to the Prophets so their perception from a logical and humane viewpoint is outdated so to speak.

Hope that made sense.

I pray for forgiveness on Humanity as a whole and Insha'Allah If im wrong I am guided from this thinking.

You're really all over the place. You first made the point that not all non-Muslims are kuffar, but you never backed it up. 

Now we're moving onto another which is do all non-believers go to Hell?

The answer is no. There are mustad'afeen (Powerless), and they won't be sent to Hell straight away.

 

Quote

 And those whose souls the Angels take while they are oppressive to themselves; they say, ‘What state were you in?’ They say, ‘We were weak in the land.’ They say, ‘Was not God’s earth wide, that you may migrate in it?’ So the abode of those people is Hell, and evil an abode it is, except the powerless among the men, women, and children who neither have access to any means nor are guided to any way; so perhaps God may pardon them, and God is Ever-Forgiving, Ever-Pardoning. (4:97-99)

 

So you see there are two types of "powerless" people. Those who are lazy and never bothered to search for the truth even if it meant migrating, those people will end up in Hell.

And the other group is that which has no means to guidance, and they are different.

Edited April 26, 2016 by The Batman

[Sumerian]

1 hour ago, Althaqalayn12 said:

 

I agree with Sayyed Kamal al-Haydari that the mustad'afeen are a unique group. However his assertion that that even scholars of other religions go to Heaven doesn't make sense to me. How does he fit that with with this Ayah:

And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers. [3:85]

[sadegh]

21 hours ago, amina_ibrahim said:

If he doesn't conclude that islam is the truth, then what will help him go to heaven? Do you think it's fair if non-believers go to heaven aswell? Don't you think atheïsts make effort too and don't abandon that effort? Don't you know that they indeed don't find truth in islam? Have they made use of the effort they put in finding the truth?

No! They are ignorant people who don't want to see the truth. If one really has put enough effort in and still denies islam then that person is considered ignorant and I'm not sure if those kinds of people would even have a chance to see heaven.

I think my answer is clear: whoever doesn't abandon any effort honestly in finding the truth, but doesn't conclude that Islam is the true religion, and that, say, Christianity is the true religion, now if he acts according to Christianity, he will absolutely go to Heaven, otherwise it will be against the justice of Allah s.w.t.

I am repeating, with these two conditions:

- the person honestly tries to find the truth, but is unable to find it, (not that he doesn't want to see the truth!);

- he acts according to what he thinks is the truth;

with these two conditions, the person must enter Heaven, because otherwise it would be contrary to Allah's justice.

لا يُكَلِّفُ اللَّهُ نَفْساً إِلاَّ وُسْعَها

"Allah does not task any soul beyond its capacity." [2:286]

إِنَّ الَّذينَ آمَنُوا وَ الَّذينَ هادُوا وَ النَّصارى‏ وَ الصَّابِئينَ مَنْ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَ الْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ وَ عَمِلَ صالِحاً فَلَهُمْ أَجْرُهُمْ عِنْدَ رَبِّهِمْ وَ لا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَ لا هُمْ يَحْزَنُون

"Indeed the faithful, the Jews, the Christians, and the Sabaeans those of them who have faith in Allah and the Last Day and act righteously they shall have their reward near their Lord, and they will have no fear, nor will they grieve." [2:62]

Peace!

[sadegh]

14 hours ago, The Batman said:

I agree with Sayyed Kamal al-Haydari that the mustad'afeen are a unique group. However his assertion that that even scholars of other religions go to Heaven doesn't make sense to me. How does he fit that with with this Ayah:

 

 

Remember brother that even a scholar can be mustadh'af!! There are a lot of scholars in the West who are really mustadh'af, because of the cultural and mental boundaries that they are confined in.

Allah s.w.t. states,

لِيَهْلِكَ مَنْ هَلَكَ عَنْ بَيِّنَةٍ وَ يَحْيى‏ مَنْ حَيَّ عَنْ بَيِّنَة

"... so that he who perishes might perish by a manifest proof, and he who lives may live on by a manifest proof..." [8:42]

Edited April 26, 2016 by sadegh

[Sumerian]

33 minutes ago, sadegh said:

Remember brother that even a scholar can be mustadh'af!! There are a lot of scholars in the West who are really mustadh'af, because of the cultural and mental boundaries that they are confined in.

Allah s.w.t. states,

لِيَهْلِكَ مَنْ هَلَكَ عَنْ بَيِّنَةٍ وَ يَحْيى‏ مَنْ حَيَّ عَنْ بَيِّنَة

"... so that he who perishes might perish by a manifest proof, and he who lives may live on by a manifest proof..." [8:42]

In a sahih narration (meaning) the Imam states that whoever can recognise the differences among the people than he is not a mustad'af.

[amina_ibrahim]

4 hours ago, sadegh said:

I think my answer is clear: whoever doesn't abandon any effort honestly in finding the truth, but doesn't conclude that Islam is the true religion, and that, say, Christianity is the true religion, now if he acts according to Christianity, he will absolutely go to Heaven, otherwise it will be against the justice of Allah s.w.t.

I am repeating, with these two conditions:

- the person honestly tries to find the truth, but is unable to find it, (not that he doesn't want to see the truth!);

- he acts according to what he thinks is the truth;

with these two conditions, the person must enter Heaven, because otherwise it would be contrary to Allah's justice.

لا يُكَلِّفُ اللَّهُ نَفْساً إِلاَّ وُسْعَها

"Allah does not task any soul beyond its capacity." [2:286]

إِنَّ الَّذينَ آمَنُوا وَ الَّذينَ هادُوا وَ النَّصارى‏ وَ الصَّابِئينَ مَنْ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَ الْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ وَ عَمِلَ صالِحاً فَلَهُمْ أَجْرُهُمْ عِنْدَ رَبِّهِمْ وَ لا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَ لا هُمْ يَحْزَنُون

"Indeed the faithful, the Jews, the Christians, and the Sabaeans those of them who have faith in Allah and the Last Day and act righteously they shall have their reward near their Lord, and they will have no fear, nor will they grieve." [2:62]

Peace!

Yhank you for this answer, everything is cleared up now!

[Althaqalayn12]

7 hours ago, sadegh said:

Remember brother that even a scholar can be mustadh'af!! There are a lot of scholars in the West who are really mustadh'af, because of the cultural and mental boundaries that they are confined in.

Allah s.w.t. states,

لِيَهْلِكَ مَنْ هَلَكَ عَنْ بَيِّنَةٍ وَ يَحْيى‏ مَنْ حَيَّ عَنْ بَيِّنَة

"... so that he who perishes might perish by a manifest proof, and he who lives may live on by a manifest proof..." [8:42]

Brother this is kamal alhaydari...Even sunnis watch him, the best scholar we have at this time...besides saying who goes to heaven or hell is not simple, its very complex with rules and different situations and its all up to Allah not us to decided who goes. But we can try to get a sense of the possibilities based on the Quran. Islam is not black and white, I mean like this is haram and this is halal...no its very very very complex

[sadegh]

18 hours ago, Althaqalayn12 said:

Brother this is kamal alhaydari...Even sunnis watch him, the best scholar we have at this time...besides saying who goes to heaven or hell is not simple, its very complex with rules and different situations and its all up to Allah not us to decided who goes. But we can try to get a sense of the possibilities based on the Quran. Islam is not black and white, I mean like this is haram and this is halal...no its very very very complex

Thank you, brother, for the nice post. To be honest, I haven't listened to the link of Sayyid Kamaal al-Haydari's h.a. speech, but I know him since long ago, even before he becomes so much famous, and I'm well aware of his opinions. I hold him in high esteem; not so much as you admired him, though!

Anyway, what you say is absolutely true, and it is only Allah s.w.t. Who knows, in an absolute sense, who will go to Heaven and who to Hell, and the main reason is that people are going to be judged by their intention which is a hidden issue, however, there are criteria in the Holy Qur'an and the hadeeths of the infallible according to which we can draw the lines. That's why I insisted on honesty and made it bold in my posts.

Peace!

Edited April 26, 2016 by sadegh