Marry without fathers consent?

[YaaAllah]

Salam Alaykum. Im talking to a woman about getting married. We want to get engaged in october/november and do the nikkah to able to be with eachother before the wedding/party. We have a hard time holding the desires back, so we want to get married. But it has to wait because she just got out of a relationship (We cant make it official because of the guy she had been with before. He can be aggressive) We've been together before and have now found eachother again. Here is my story from before:

So my question here is, can we get married without her fathers consent? She is not a virgin (zina) and because we have a hard time waiting we wanna just get married to stop committing sins.

 

[Guest]

Salam , 

please read this 

 

[YaaAllah]

23 minutes ago, starlight said:

Salam , 

please read this 

 

Thank you for such fast response. We will have to stop seeing eachother until the day of nikkah. 
 

[bhattiMRP21]

what you mean she not virgin...have she had sex with other men before without nikah?

[Althaqalayn12]

Based on Sayyid Alsistani may Allah bless his soul

1-If she is a virgin she needs her fathers consent.

2-If she is not a virgin she does not.

Now I am assuming she's a muslim.

[notme]

1 hour ago, Althaqalayn12 said:

Based on Sayyid Alsistani may Allah bless his soul

1-If she is a virgin she needs her fathers consent.

2-If she is not a virgin she does not.

Now I am assuming she's a muslim.

You may want to check that. I think that a woman who has never been married must have father's permission for marriage even if she has committed zina and repented. 

[Althaqalayn12]

3 hours ago, notme said:

You may want to check that. I think that a woman who has never been married must have father's permission for marriage even if she has committed zina and repented. 

IF zina ocured obviously she still needs a fathers permission. Reading the mans first few lines made me assume that he hasn't done it yet.

 

 We want to get engaged in october/november and do the nikkah to able to be with eachother before the wedding/party.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Althaqalayn12

[notme]

On 4/18/2016 at 12:50 PM, Althaqalayn12 said:

IF zina ocured obviously she still needs a fathers permission.  

He said this:

On 4/18/2016 at 2:22 AM, YaaAllah said:

So my question here is, can we get married without her fathers consent? She is not a virgin (zina) and because we have a hard time waiting we wanna just get married to stop committing sins.

There are circumstances where avoiding sin takes precedence over father's consent. I don't know whether this is one of those situations. The OP should consult a knowledgeable person who he trusts to maintain confidentiality.

[Althaqalayn12]

3 hours ago, notme said:

He said this:

 

There are circumstances where avoiding sin takes precedence over father's consent. I don't know whether this is one of those situations. The OP should consult a knowledgeable person who he trusts to maintain confidentiality.

Based on obligatory precaution, one should refrain from marrying a woman whose notorious for adultery, unless she has repented. Similarly, based on obligatory precaution, the adulterer should not marry the woman with whom he committed adultery, unless she has repented.

 

The consent of the father or the paternal grandfather is not required in the marriage of a non-virgin woman (that is, a girl who had previously married and had sexual intercourse). But the case of the woman who had lost her virginity because of fornication or another cause is like that of a virgin.

 

http://www.sistani.org/english/book/46/2062/

 

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, Althaqalayn12 said:

Based on obligatory precaution, one should refrain from marrying a woman whose notorious for adultery, unless she has repented. Similarly, based on obligatory precaution, the adulterer should not marry the woman with whom he committed adultery, unless she has repented.

http://www.sistani.org/english/book/46/2062/

 

What I found is contradictory to the above. I wonder what's the correct ruling. @narsis

6Question: If an unmarried girl and an unmarried boy have had pre-marital sex, are they allowed to enter marriage contract with each other?

Answer: Yes, they are allowed.

http://www.sistani.org/english/qa/01129/

@narsis

[narsis]

47 minutes ago, starlight said:

What I found is contradictory to the above. I wonder what's the correct ruling. @narsis

6Question: If an unmarried girl and an unmarried boy have had pre-marital sex, are they allowed to enter marriage contract with each other?

Answer: Yes, they are allowed.

http://www.sistani.org/english/qa/01129/

@narsis

Bismillah.

Salaam.

The answer of Ayatollah is only about to say that such an illegal relationship does not prevent them to get married but marriage must be done considering all its conditions like her father's permission.

With Duas.

Narsis.

[Struggling_onn]

3 hours ago, narsis said:

Bismillah.

Salaam.

The answer of Ayatollah is only about to say that such an illegal relationship does not prevent them to get married but marriage must be done considering all its conditions like her father's permission.

With Duas.

Narsis.

But what if the girl is independent and father is more likely to say no, Does she still require father's permission ? 

 

I don't think father's permission is required in that case... 

Edited April 18, 2016 by AvengerAfterRepentance

[Althaqalayn12]

8 hours ago, starlight said:

What I found is contradictory to the above. I wonder what's the correct ruling. @narsis

6Question: If an unmarried girl and an unmarried boy have had pre-marital sex, are they allowed to enter marriage contract with each other?

Answer: Yes, they are allowed.

http://www.sistani.org/english/qa/01129/

@narsis

the adulterer should not marry the woman with whom he committed adultery, unless she has repented.

 

 

Quote

 

But what if the girl is independent and father is more likely to say no, Does she still require father's permission ? 

I don't think father's permission is required in that case... 

@AvengerAfterRepentance

 

 

If she is a virgin yes, if she lost her virginity in an a previous marriage, no. If she lost her virginity in a non marriage (zina/fornication) Then yes.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Althaqalayn12

[narsis]

16 hours ago, AvengerAfterRepentance said:

But what if the girl is independent and father is more likely to say no, Does she still require father's permission ? 

 

I don't think father's permission is required in that case... 

Yes she needs his permission.

[Struggling_onn]

1 hour ago, narsis said:

Yes she needs his permission.

i think there's relaxation in that rule... if the girl is independent...  

[Guest]

1 hour ago, AvengerAfterRepentance said:

i think there's relaxation in that rule... if the girl is independent...  

No, there isn't. Even if she is independent she still has to obtain permission based on obligatory precaution. If the guardian does not interfere in the matters of her life then she can forgo the permission.

 

[Struggling_onn]

1 hour ago, starlight said:

No, there isn't. Even if she is independent she still has to obtain permission based on obligatory precaution. If the guardian does not interfere in the matters of her life then she can forgo the permission.

 

That's what the independence mean... in the first place that guardian doesn't interfere in her life or she doesn't allow it either. she is fully independent. 

 

Plus another case would be, if girl is independent, but guardian is likey to say noooo based on his biased views e.g ( arab or persian or pakis should only marry each other or anything like that ) in this case guardian's permission isn't necessary. 

Edited April 19, 2016 by AvengerAfterRepentance

[Sumerian]

On Monday, April 18, 2016 at 4:51 AM, starlight said:

What I found is contradictory to the above. I wonder what's the correct ruling. @narsis

6Question: If an unmarried girl and an unmarried boy have had pre-marital sex, are they allowed to enter marriage contract with each other?

Answer: Yes, they are allowed.

http://www.sistani.org/english/qa/01129/

@narsis

The risala of Sayyed al-Sistani, and his books, are always the most reliable. So if you find anything that condradicts what he says in the risala, then you follow the risala.

With that being said, I find no contradiction.

[Sumerian]

On 19/04/2016 at 4:26 AM, AvengerAfterRepentance said:

That's what the independence mean... in the first place that guardian doesn't interfere in her life or she doesn't allow it either. she is fully independent. 

 

Plus another case would be, if girl is independent, but guardian is likey to say noooo based on his biased views e.g ( arab or persian or pakis should only marry each other or anything like that ) in this case guardian's permission isn't necessary. 

Some scholars have a relaxation on the ruling for father's permission if the female is an independent woman.

However Sayyed al-Sistani still says:

 

Quote

 

418. Question: If a woman is over thirty years of age, and still virgin, is it necessary for her to seek the permission of her guardian for marriage?

Answer: If she is not independent, it is obligatory on her to seek his consent. Rather, even if she is independent, she must seek his consent, as a matter of compulsory precaution.

http://www.al-islam.org/a-code-of-practice-for-muslims-in-the-west-ayatullah-sistani/marriage

 

So it is a matter of obligatory precaution.

Edited April 21, 2016 by The Batman

[andres]

Some of you apparently do not live in developed countries where women are emancipated, educated, intelligent and capable. 

[notme]

23 minutes ago, andres said:

Some of you apparently do not live in developed countries where women are emancipated, educated, intelligent and capable. 

I think it's more about wisdom. Teens and young adults tend to make impulsive bad choices. Requiring father's permission helps avoid or reduce this. 

[andres]

58 minutes ago, notme said:

I think it's more about wisdom. Teens and young adults tend to make impulsive bad choices. Requiring father's permission helps avoid or reduce this. 

There is a difference in requiering permission and ask for an advice. Nothing wrong with advice, but adults must take responsability for their own descicions. Fathers can also make impulsive bad choises. Why not ask the mothers? Are they not as wise as the fathers? This patriarcial view is from former centuries and do not apply to developed societies. Women are just as capable as men, if you let them.

[notme]

8 minutes ago, andres said:

There is a difference in requiering permission and ask for an advice. Nothing wrong with advice, but adults must take responsability for their own descicions. Fathers can also make impulsive bad choises. Why not ask the mothers? Are they not as wise as the fathers? This patriarcial view is from former centuries and do not apply to developed societies. Women are just as capable as men, if you let them.

Indeed, most women I know are wiser than most men I know. (Admittedly my own limited experience) But think about it: a man would have to have a good supply of seriousness to approach a girl's father. Her mother is probably not so intimidating. The requirement of permission does not apply to an independent woman, only to a woman still being supported by her parents.

[andres]

So, young boys and girls that wish to marry, shall if they still depend on their parents, ask their fathers for permission. (If the mother is wiser, which you say is the most probable, I think they did better to ask their mothers). Young independent boys and girls are free to do as they like. Now in my country boys and girls are independent free humans, responsable for their own descicions and acts from age 18. Marrying before this age is very very seldom. I and my wife never asked anybody for permission to get married. 

Edited April 21, 2016 by andres

[notme]

12 minutes ago, andres said:

Now in my country boys and girls are independent free humans, responsable for their own descicions and acts from age 18. Marrying before this age is very very seldom. 

So we have no disagreement, it seems.

In the US, a lot of young people continue to live with their parents until they have a university degree or job training and are on a career path. Those people who still are financially dependent are among those who are not independent. Being independent means they live on their own resources, make their own decisions, and make their own contribution to society. 

If the parents, for whatever reason, refuse to guide their adult child even if they are financially dependent, permission is also not required. It wouldn't be very nice of those parents though.

[andres]

Maybe not, but if you accept the Qurans view on womens rights we differ on this.