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What Would You Do if Your Child Was Gay?

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Salamunalaykum,

In the name of Allah the beneficient the merciful.

Societies in the west, and perhaps some in the easy if they have not already done so, are moving towards a gradual acceptance of homosexuality as a normal and acceptable practise. This hase been achieved by extremely intelligent media work, celebrity involvement, coordination, grass-roots movements and a plethora of people who in their hearts are against it - but because of fear of loss of a career or reputation, or to try and further their own image (i.e the clintons?) have done U-turns on a belief they once held.

Now, i am against muslims hijacking gay pride rallies and hurling abuse at homosexuals. This kind of behaviour in Britain only serves to do more harm than good, alienates us, and is not the intelligent way to approach the issue. I am also against any violence done to someone who claims or says they are homosexual, as well as any discrimination here in Britain. This discussion is merely a reflection on Britains evolving attitude towards homosexuality, and the new mission to make muslims submit to it as an ideologically moral practise.

They have achieved this largely - or to a successful level with christians here in Britain - though many are against it.

It seems now their attention is turning to Muslims. Mainstream media constantly promotes those who accept homosexuality as perfectly fine in Islam, as well as create programs.

Here is one of them, by the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06ryprb/reggie-yates-extreme-uk-1-gay-and-under-attack

Unfortunately, the Muslims in the documentary did not approach the issue of homosexuality properly in my view( they didn't say anything wrong, but they gave fodder for the program)

Better replies would be as follows:

1. We do not say people 'choose' their sexuality in the sense they wake up one morning and decide 'hey i am gay'. That is a strawman accusation. Rather, we (or it can be argued that some) affirm sexuality of all kinds and diversities is a very complicated affair. It could be that one predisposes themselves, whether purposely or unintentionally through external environmental factors, over a period of time (variable) and therefore both conciously and subconciously influencing their sexuality.

2. Islam forbids all kinds of sexual deviances. For instance, a straight man can not have sexual relations with a straight woman without a proper contract. A man/woman can not have extra marital affairs. Similarly, Islam is clear in prohibiting the practise of homosexuality. Someone CAN have homosexual feelings, AND be a muslim providing they don't act on those feelings - similar to a man who is straight , and wants to engage in sexual acts before marriage, or other kinds of sexual practises prohibited.

3. If i believe the Quran is the word of God, and Muhammed s.a.w was his messenger, then i take his words seriously. If i think the Quran and the words of Muhammed s.a.w were simply mythical, something perhaps spiritual that i can pick or choose, then religion really becomes degraded to ones own personal whims. So in trying to force a moral acceptance of homosexuality on muslims, is one already assuming before hand a general consensus in that religion is simply something one chooses, that is not ingrained in fact or reality and has no real meaning or consequence?

 

I may be wrong in this, and so mistakes are my own - but what are your thoughts?

 

 

 

 

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One can still be a muslim and actually indulge in the sin. Keep in mind it is a sin, a great one, but still a sin. A homosexual may easily end up indulging in it (especially if he happens to eventually get drunk or who knows, live a phase of discomfort with religion).

In any case, regardless of the position one holds, one should always try to be academic and approach the issue wisely. And ic one only holds the religious opinion, it is definitely better not to talk and do taqiyyah.

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I'm not Muslim and I don't know what life in the UK is like,but the Christian Churches in the US have not " succumbed" to anything. They can choose to accept " gays"  and their marriages or not ,depending upon their doctrines ...same as always. Religious freedom. No one is forced to believe anything.

The only people I know directly affected are the very few people who refused to do their sworn public jobs ,(paid  for by all taxpayers... including gay ones), because of it and we've beat that dead horse already. It seems to have died down now.  There will be people who never accept it and that's okay. There will be churches that will likely never perform same-sex weddings ,like mine, and that's okay, too.

But the church has nothing to do with the issuances of a civil marriage license.

what I don't like is the constant whining going on around here when gay folks and their parents and siblings and other family members use their god-given free will and  decamp to another, more accepting, place of worship ....taking their $$$$$ with them. Suffer for your faith, all, and stop whining.

 

 

 

 

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Oh man...Everything on TV now has a gay counterpart. It is being forced on the "free world" in a way that eventual acceptance is inevitable. Our world is so twisted and people are so drawn to fashion, etc that common sense no longer applies. The day may come I have to apologize for being straight...nah, that won't happen.

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^ Well, if TV bothers you get rid of it like I did mine. Only it wasn't over gay people. I hate " reality TV" and most of celebrity and pop culture. The cable company became the only way to go and wouldn't  let me buy an educational -only package. So no more TV.  Problem solved. I doubt anyone will ever mind that you are straight. Lol. :sign_offtopic:

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Never will we succumb, whatever opportunity i get to speak against gays i speak and i have even said to gay people that what they are doing is wrong and that God's punishment is going to be horrendous to them 

i dont care if they seen me as homophobic, i will speak the truth no matter what because everyone else is afraid to 

in recent times science has proven that homosexuality is not genetic, and if it is not "written into your genes" then it can be changed 

the same way society expects paedophiles to be reformed, so can homosexuals, and anyone that believes it cant be done shouldn't believe in anything else either 

i am sick of people succumbing to homosexual lifestyles, i dont care 

if any of the Prophets or Imams where around today , would they accept them? of course not, would they be "nice" to them? of course not 

so neither will i and i dont care the repercussions, at least on judgement day i can say that i stood up against this (one of )evil(s) of modern society  

Edited by mightymask

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For muslims, there are at least three separate issues here that need to be considered .

 

First, we must be clear that we condemn homosexual acts. Homosexuality is against human nature and it is major sin which, if the perpetrator does not seek forgiveness from Allah(s.w.a) and the repentance is not accepted, it is for sure that this person will be punished in the fire of hell. Our Imams have been clear what constitutes the sin of homosexuality, that is any act which is done with lust between two members of the same sex (man to man or women to women) including touching, kissing, and of course the sexual act. 

Allah(s.w.a) created human society and built that society based on the family. The family is a husband, wife(s), and children. This structure is the foundation upon which Allah(s.w.a) chose to build up society. As all of you know, if the foundation of a building is damaged, the entire building will be damaged, and the more the foundation decays, the more the building will decay until it eventually falls Homosexuality and the homosexual lifestyle is an individual act, but more than that it is an act that undermines the foundation upon which society is built. That is why it is an act which not only carries a punishment in the next life, but also in this life. But the punishment in this life is dependent upon, or predicated upon the type of society and government it is and the capacity to carry out the punishment within the existing social framework. 

So the second issue is how should we, as muslims, deal with people who are openly homosexual ? 

It is clear that, at least in Western Society, none of the preconditions (an Islamic Government, A just Imam or Qadi(judge) who is appointed by the Islamic Government, a court system based on Sharia (the real Sharia)) are present in order to carry out the punishment for this crime, evidence, and eyewitnesses. So therefore, we as individual muslims, outside of a just Islamic Government, have no right to carry out any sort of punishment on homosexuals. Therefore, we must act with them as we would act with any other fasiq(one who does haram openly), which is to distance ourselves from them and not to participate in any sorts of social activities with them (where homosexuality is encouraged or practiced) and not do or say anything that validates their choice to do this sin. At the same time, we also have an obligation to treat them as we would treat any other human being, whether muslim or non muslim, and that is to treat them fairly, not abuse them, not cheat them, and try our best to be a good example of Islamic morals and ethics for them. 

The third issue is how to deal with our muslim brothers and sisters who may not do homosexual acts, therefore they are not fasiq, but have desires to do these things and/or they sympathize with the advocates for homosexuality in the West. These brothers and sisters are not fasiq, therefore it is not obligatory for us to distance ourselves from them, but we must try our best to do 'Amr bil maroof wa nahiya al munkhar' (enjoining good and forbidding evil) with them and try to talk with them and reason with them in order to bring them back to the Haqq( the truth and the right). They are much more likely to return to Haqq vs those who are already practicing the acts of homosexuality. 

 

And to the brothers and sisters who believe that homosexuality and its advocates in the media, government, etc are powerful, then know that Allah(s.w.a) is Al Qadir(the ultimate power). They are building castles on shifting sand, and soon these castles will fall down and will become nothing. That is because anything that stands in opposition to Allah(s.w.a), Al Aliun Al Athim (The High and the Great) is ephemeral and transient, has no substance and no reality, and will quickly disintegrate and disappear as if it never existed at all. 

 

 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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Within 10 to 20 years, most Muslims under the age of 40 that live in the West will believe that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. This in turn will lead to the growth of the 'Quran only' movement (whether it is explicitly acknowledged as such or not), and more and more liberal interpretations of various aspects of the faith. Make no mistake, this will be the tool that is used to weaken Islam in the West (and eventually the whole world). Once you convince people that there is no difference between sexuality and race, and that believing that being of a certain sexuality is sinful is like believing that certain races are inferior, then you make it impossible for people to accept those teaching of their faith. And once they reject one aspect of it, there is no reason not to engage in wholesale picking and choosing. Nothing can be done against this, because the media choose who they let speak on behalf of Muslims, and how they portray those speakers. There is also a huge amount of complacency among Muslims on this issue, and even if there weren't, there isn't enough intelligence among those who 'lead' Islamic communities to do anything about it anyway.

Over the past 5 years, the battle in favour of homosexuality has been conclusively won in the West among secularists and nominal Christians (and serious inroads have been made among the previously not-so-nominal Christians as well). How progressives, being progressives, they never stop, and move on to new terrain. Whereas in the past, they would pretty much leave ethnic and religious minorities alone with their beliefs, and choose to concentrate on the hated Christian majority, they now are now starting a full-on battle through the media against Muslims on the subject of homosexuality. Simultaneously they are now concentrating on winning the 'transsexual' wars among the wider public (this is nearly won as well). I'm not sure what they will move on to next on the sexual ethics front (my guess would be polyamory), but they are also trying hard to get drugs legalization through, as well as widespread acceptance of euthanasia.

There is nothing that can be done about any of this, since everyone these days is plugged in 24/7 to various forms of media, which pumps their propaganda out continuously. Other social institutions likes the political and educational systems, although usually a little behind the media, also reinforce this message, but with the potential to use disciplinary methods to enforce it. There is no point trying to argue against it in public, and all you can do is think about how best to live with it for you and those you care about.

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1 hour ago, Ali Musaaa :) said:

A pretty good response, but I think he probably should have mentioned that some sins are worse than others, and have been a little more clear that although you can be a Muslims who commits sins, while acknowledging that they are sins, you can't be a Muslim who denies that what you are doing is sinful in the first place (assuming the person has the appropriate levels of knowledge of course).

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4 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

Being gay is not a sin, gay sex is. And can only be punished if witnessed by reliable witnesses.

Seems to me that Islam is saying mind our own business and let the gays mind theirs, so long as they dont MAKE it our business by gay-ing it up in public? Allah knows best. Im not bothered by the gay any more than im bothered by drinkers of alcohol or fornicators or gamblers or eaters of haram food etc - the quran lists all these as sins dunno why so many people are focusing on the queers. 

 

Quote

It is also related from the Holy Prophet (S) that he said;

“Refrain from looking lustfully at the children of rich people and slaves, especially those who have yet no beard. Because the mischief that is possible by such glances is greater than mischief of glancing at young girls, who are in veil.”

Quote

The Holy Prophet (S) has stated:

“Make separate bed for your children above ten years. Two brothers and two sisters and a brother and a sister should not be made to sleep on the same bed.”

Quote

The Holy Prophet (S) has said,

“Allah shall punish for a thousand years in Hell, the man who kisses a boy with passion.”11

If two just witnesses testify to have seen a man kissing a young man in a sensual way, the wrongdoer could be punished with thirty to ninety lashes as decided by the Qazi.

Quote

Amir ul-Mu’minīn ‘Ali (a.s.) has said:

“Sodomy is a Greater Sin and carries punishment when a man mounts upon another man but does not penetrate. If he penetrates, it is kufr”.

It means that one who considers sodomy legal is a Kafir, because to consider sodomy illegal is one of the requirements of faith.

Full article: http://www.al-islam.org/greater-sins-volume-1-ayatullah-sayyid-abdul-husayn-dastghaib-shirazi/eleventh-greater-sin-sodomy

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7 minutes ago, Darth Vader said:

Jazakallah bro, I never knew these hadith

Edited by DigitalUmmah

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13 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

I'm not Muslim and I don't know what life in the UK is like,but the Christian Churches in the US have not " succumbed" to anything. They can choose to accept " gays"  and their marriages or not ,depending upon their doctrines ...same as always. Religious freedom. No one is forced to believe anything.

The only people I know directly affected are the very few people who refused to do their sworn public jobs ,(paid  for by all taxpayers... including gay ones), because of it and we've beat that dead horse already. It seems to have died down now.  There will be people who never accept it and that's okay. There will be churches that will likely never perform same-sex weddings ,like mine, and that's okay, too.

But the church has nothing to do with the issuances of a civil marriage license.

what I don't like is the constant whining going on around here when gay folks and their parents and siblings and other family members use their god-given free will and  decamp to another, more accepting, place of worship ....taking their $$$$$ with them. Suffer for your faith, all, and stop whining.

 

 

 

 

Peace and greetings:)

I want to clarify what i have said. When i have stated that 'christians' or 'christianity' has succumb , i do not mean every christian, or many of the christian bodies. However, it is a fair and valid observation that in both the US and UK, the christian church and christian followers are far, far more tolerant of homosexuality as a practise, and deem is religiouslly okay - even though you also have many opposing it in terms of being a valid and moral practise. Many christians also fight for gay marriage.

You won't however, find that in the muslim community by and large by consensus, even if you get the odd group here and there.

That is what i meant. Governments, news , media, lobbying groups have taken a notice to it, and there are great efforts into trying to get the muslim population to accept homosexuality as a moral and fair practise inline with their religion.

This is not about discriminating against homosexuals and hurling abuse - as a british citizen i am against both in my country.

This is about changing the tennents of a religion as to what acts are deemed moral or not.

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I honestly don't think it is so much linked to which religion is more tolerant but to the political side of it all. If we are talking about the West, regardless of the religion practiced there, there will be open acceptance to such issues. In anyway, it goes in accordance with the rest. Haydar Hussein even pointed it out, in 20 years those muslims living in the West will end up accepting it, if they still don't. Thus it is important to see the political side of it, rather than the merely religious one.

As many here, I don't see where is the problem when the issue doesn't go beyond each one's private life. I agree on the problem of propaganda, but being gay shouldn't be anything one should care about. Many of my colleagues are gay and honestly you don't see them do anything out of place. At most, they may do one or two jokes related to their sexuality which I see as something positive, one should be able to joke about oneself as well.

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Some very interesting contributions.

 

7 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Within 10 to 20 years, most Muslims under the age of 40 that live in the West will believe that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. This in turn will lead to the growth of the 'Quran only' movement (whether it is explicitly acknowledged as such or not), and more and more liberal interpretations of various aspects of the faith. Make no mistake, this will be the tool that is used to weaken Islam in the West (and eventually the whole world). Once you convince people that there is no difference between sexuality and race, and that believing that being of a certain sexuality is sinful is like believing that certain races are inferior, then you make it impossible for people to accept those teaching of their faith. And once they reject one aspect of it, there is no reason not to engage in wholesale picking and choosing. Nothing can be done against this, because the media choose who they let speak on behalf of Muslims, and how they portray those speakers. There is also a huge amount of complacency among Muslims on this issue, and even if there weren't, there isn't enough intelligence among those who 'lead' Islamic communities to do anything about it anyway.

Over the past 5 years, the battle in favour of homosexuality has been conclusively won in the West among secularists and nominal Christians (and serious inroads have been made among the previously not-so-nominal Christians as well). How progressives, being progressives, they never stop, and move on to new terrain. Whereas in the past, they would pretty much leave ethnic and religious minorities alone with their beliefs, and choose to concentrate on the hated Christian majority, they now are now starting a full-on battle through the media against Muslims on the subject of homosexuality. Simultaneously they are now concentrating on winning the 'transsexual' wars among the wider public (this is nearly won as well). I'm not sure what they will move on to next on the sexual ethics front (my guess would be polyamory), but they are also trying hard to get drugs legalization through, as well as widespread acceptance of euthanasia.

There is nothing that can be done about any of this, since everyone these days is plugged in 24/7 to various forms of media, which pumps their propaganda out continuously. Other social institutions likes the political and educational systems, although usually a little behind the media, also reinforce this message, but with the potential to use disciplinary methods to enforce it. There is no point trying to argue against it in public, and all you can do is think about how best to live with it for you and those you care about.

This is very insightful and interesting. There is one thing i would like to bring up here - why can't shia's form lobbying groups and media to combat the advent of secularism ?

I personally think if we even were organised enough to do so, the hostility and media against us would be so profound, it would cause more harm to the muslim communities.

It's a dilema.

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14 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

Being gay is not a sin, gay sex is. And can only be punished if witnessed by reliable witnesses.

Seems to me that Islam is saying mind our own business and let the gays mind theirs, so long as they dont MAKE it our business by gay-ing it up in public? Allah knows best. Im not bothered by the gay any more than im bothered by drinkers of alcohol or fornicators or gamblers or eaters of haram food etc - the quran lists all these as sins dunno why so many people are focusing on the queers. 

 

What is "gay-ing it up in public":confused:?

 

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8 hours ago, Bakir said:

I honestly don't think it is so much linked to which religion is more tolerant but to the political side of it all. If we are talking about the West, regardless of the religion practiced there, there will be open acceptance to such issues. In anyway, it goes in accordance with the rest. Haydar Hussein even pointed it out, in 20 years those muslims living in the West will end up accepting it, if they still don't. Thus it is important to see the political side of it, rather than the merely religious one.

As many here, I don't see where is the problem when the issue doesn't go beyond each one's private life. I agree on the problem of propaganda, but being gay shouldn't be anything one should care about. Many of my colleagues are gay and honestly you don't see them do anything out of place. At most, they may do one or two jokes related to their sexuality which I see as something positive, one should be able to joke about oneself as well.

Gays should only be quiet about their sex lives if straights are, too. 

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8 hours ago, Tawheed313 said:

Peace and greetings:)

 

That is what i meant. Governments, news , media, lobbying groups have taken a notice to it, and there are great efforts into trying to get the muslim population to accept homosexuality as a moral and fair practise inline with their religion.

 

This is about changing the tennents of a religion as to what acts are deemed moral or not.

Hi and Peace back at you,

As I said, I don't live in the UK. They are coming into the mosques or in public over there and pressuring you to accept LGBTQI folks? How are they trying to change you?

btw...full disclosure: I am for separation of Church and State. I also a pro-" gay rights".  I don't think gay folks should have to live in a system that they pay taxes into, fight in the military and die for, and otherwise  support that will  not let two legal consenting adults contract a marriage like everyone else does.

The State should not tell the Church ( Mosque, Synagogue, Oak Grove, whatever) what to believe or  what people to perform weddings for.

The Church,as an organization,etc.,in return, should keep its snoot out of  most secular civil affairs ( and its money...which it sometimes doesn't) and not tell the State what people to perform weddings for. .. or it can risk losing its cushy tax exempt status. 

I know you would never want anyone harmed.

I'm just tired of all the Church People in my  own country trying to hide behind rights they would  deny to others. Glad that is over in this country as far as the marriage issue goes. Now I can go save a salmon stream instead of worrying about whether my gay colleague's partner can make health care decisions for him/her instead of his/her hateful family who would just as soon he/she dies to end their collective embarrassment  . Marriage licenses are wonderful things. I have one. Now my colleagues can get one. Solves problems.

I see no religious issue here at all unless people are violating the Separation...forcing Muslim religious leaders  to perform same-sex marriages , closing down mosques for not doing so, or making Muslims confess to believing things they don't. 

 

 

 

 

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Well, and out of necessity as well, LCM, it is not a myth against gays that STDs are widespread. Actually, regardless of the measures you use to protect yourself, practices such as anal intercourse will still harm you one way or another.

@DigitalUmmah, I honestly would like to abstain from sharing this opinion, but as it is related to honesty, I truly believe I should make an effort and be honest myself regarding my opinion: drinkers of alcohol, fornicators, etc. It is still the same, let people mind their own business. There is no virtue in acts one didn't choose to do (or not to do). And if we stop believing in virtue, honesty won't have any value from a religious perspective. I really want to believe that individual freedom was given to us so that honesty may become a characteristic that is valuable in us. And it is indeed valuable in a human sense, thus I find it hard to forget it in a religious sense. If a religion loses the importance given to human honesty, it loses the importance to any actual spirituality (if that is even a thing for some). A religion lacking honesty is a religion lacking spirituality (thus, we merely got some laws - wise or not, traditions and annual events).

That is why I find it very hard to understand the spirituality of a religion that is unable to respect human individual freedom. Detest gays as much as you want, I can't care less, but this is a philosophical problem I find that makes someone holding such views against individual freedom very unbearable (not referring to you, actually the post isn't directed to anyone, just speaking about the topic). Whatever one makes in his own house or in the context of his private life, be it drinking, dancing, having sex with people of the same sex, etc. belongs to his individual freedom, and no one has any right to judge such a person.

Maybe my fierce belief and passion in certain political ideas push me to hold firmly certain views, but I don't see nor understand nor am able to empathize with anyone who supports any position against individual freedom and human rights. I had the luck that the scholar who taught me about this religion was someone who shared these views I hold to the farthest extreme.

 

On a side note, I have been able to notice from my experience that there is a whole big cultural gap in the issue of sin, which I am starting to see as a problem rather than a lucky coincidence. When one stops seeing himself so far from sin, and thinks of certain sins, such as drinking alcohol or indulging in sodomy, as something that one could certainly eventually fall in them, THEN it emerges a humble feeling, and rather than attacking those sins and the people who commit them we do what we have to do as the powerless beings we are: ask God for help and guidance.

Edited by Bakir

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39 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Hi and Peace back at you,

As I said, I don't live in the UK. They are coming into the mosques or in public over there and pressuring you to accept LGBTQI folks? How are they trying to change you?

btw...full disclosure: I am for separation of Church and State. I also a pro-" gay rights".  I don't think gay folks should have to live in a system that they pay taxes into, fight in the military and die for, and otherwise  support that will  not let two legal consenting adults contract a marriage like everyone else does.

Why just two consenting adults? What if 2 men and 3 women all want to be married to each other? Would you call that a marriage?

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4 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Why just two consenting adults? What if 2 men and 3 women all want to be married to each other? Would you call that a marriage?

 If we go to legal polyamory...yes, I would. That, btw, is the only way your polygyny would become legally allowable in the US.

Edited by LeftCoastMom

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4 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

 If we go to legal polyamory...yes, I would. That, btw, is the only way your polygyny would become legally allowable in the US.

Interesting... So you don't believe that marriage has any intrinsic meaning, and that it is just whatever people choose to make it?

As for polygyny, I have no interest in it becoming 'legal' in the US, or anywhere else, if it means the wholesale devaluation of the concept of marriage. In any case, Islamic marriage doesn't require the recognition of the state. It is a private contract between two people before God, which doesn't concern the state.

Ah, for the old days, when (in England at least) marriage services would begin with: "Dearly beloved, we are gathered together here in the sight of God, and in the face of this Congregation, to join together this man and this woman in holy Matrimony; which is an honourable estate, instituted of God in the time of man's innocency..."

Now we have the joining together of spouse 1 and spouse 2, and soon it will be more than that. The whole thing is becoming a joke.

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These are only words Haydar. The whole idea about semiotics is that it is a tool to serve us, not the other way around.

As for the joke, I guess that is just because it clashes with stablished traditions. As for the rest, I guess it is not an actual problem.

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6 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Interesting... So you don't believe that marriage has any intrinsic meaning, and that it is just whatever people choose to make it?

As for polygyny, I have no interest in it becoming 'legal' in the US, or anywhere else, if it means the wholesale devaluation of the concept of marriage. In any case, Islamic marriage doesn't require the recognition of the state. It is a private contract between two people before God, which doesn't concern the state.

Ah, for the old days, when (in England at least) marriage services would begin with: "Dearly beloved, we are gathered together here in the sight of God, and in the face of this Congregation, to join together this man and this woman in holy Matrimony; which is an honourable estate, instituted of God in the time of man's innocency..."

Now we have the joining together of spouse 1 and spouse 2, and soon it will be more than that. The whole thing is becoming a joke.

I think marriage has tons of " intrinsic value". That's why gay people want it. 

My wedding began with words similar to that.

I'm talking about what the State will recognize. Right now it's between two consenting adults and has rights and responsibilities attached...not " whatever anyone makes it".

Edited by LeftCoastMom

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45 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Why just two consenting adults? What if 2 men and 3 women all want to be married to each other? Would you call that a marriage?

Lol. I think the problem people have is that the definition of marriage is being changed every decade or so. It was originally a religious thing but ever since countries became secular, it became a civil thing. Even then the definiton seemed to be marriage between man and woman, now it seems to have even changed from that.

 

 

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It seems we won't be able to dodge the topic on semiotics, so let's go!

Indeed, as Batman already pointed out, the concept of marriage has changed a lot, but it is not a new thing. It has been like this, at least in the West, for the past two millenia as some anthropologists would be able to defend, and actually do.

Actually, on the topic of marriage, the anthropologist Andrew Sullivan makes a nice point. If we were to marry like we did 1000 years ago (let's not even go to 2000 years ago), we wouldn't be able to divorce, nor to marry someone from another faith or race, and our wives would be actual property we could own and dispose at the age of 12 years old. Sounds exciting I guess.

In such a case, it is acknowledging that marriage is a fundamental right in a legal sense what made us overcome such distinctions, and be able to marry people from other faiths and races. The concept of marriage has changed for the sake of equality and human rights in the West, so the question of why gays and lesbians weren't/aren't allowed to marry their own was/is obviously present and demanding a reasonable reply.

The issue is not about making uncalled-for changes, nor to consider all definitions of marriage as incoherent, wrong, or even worse, irrational. Because exclusively heterosexual marriage isn't irrational by itself. What is actually irrational is to stick to a specific definition of marriage merely because this is what we have learned. Definitions change fortunately, as we have been able to notice in Sullivan's observation.

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Well, the "definition " of marriage varied with time and place. It was  different here pre-contact. And the Church has had varying connections with the marriage process depending on era and area as well.

at present, the Catholic Church defines marriage as between one man and one woman in an unbreakable, lifelong bond.

not likely to change that I can see. And nothing should force it to ....it is a Catholic issue and must be contemplated by Catholics themselves.

@Tawheed313 seems to be bringing up a legitimate civil issue and one I'm not familiar with ,if the government is trying to pressure Muslims.  I don't know what experiences  Muslims have across the pond. I am baffled by some of the things France does, for instance. You folks would know better.

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The thread has covered quite a lot of ground but the original post spoke about the changing attitude to homosexuality in Britain and the west more generally and referenced the efforts to make Muslims 'submit' to the homosexual ideology, whatever that is. My thought on this is that the notion of submission or forced acceptance of homosexuality by Muslims might be looking at it from the wrong angle. The general secular western outlook (to be a bit too broad about it) is not to force anything on anyone but to establish boundaries beyond which nobody is allowed to impose religiously specific ideology on anyone. So in this sense nobody is forced to 'accept' homosexuality or say it's great if they do not think so. Muslims can still disapprove of homosexuality and discourage it if they want. The only element of force is that religion is not an excuse for transgressing the laws that the society has deemed equally applicable to everyone on the basis that you don't like some aspect of that person's belief or lifestyle. It doesn't make sense for a legal system that looks to an individual's own beliefs to determine if that person's actions are punishable or not. This works the other way around too - Muslims are entitled to live as they see fit provided that it doesn't cross these boundaries which are inevitably imperfect and arbitrary for sure but which are essentially a necessary attempt to establish some sort of stable co-existence in a diverse society. The only other option seems to me to be open conflict over personal matters. Of course, in such a scenario Muslims are also considered to have the right to drink and be gay like everyone else if they want to, regardless of what their fellow Muslims think of it. As Muslims do you find that aspect of it problematic? 

 

I live in Ireland and earlier this year we became the first country in the world to introduce gay marriage by popular vote rather than by legislation (or whatever you call it when government introduces it by themselves) and the Yes vote won by something like 63% to 37%. Muslims and Christians are not obliged to celebrate gay weddings in their churches and mosques but they can have a gay wedding if they so wish, or not as the case may be. I think there is a tendency to blame the ills of society on the wrong thing and often it is sexual morality, or the lack of it, which gets all the attention while the real culprit of social decay (in my view it is unfettered corporate greed) gets off scot free. A variation of the same thing tries to pin the blame on immigrants or Jews and Muslims.   

Edited by Klanky
spelling mistake

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I so much agree with your points Klanky, very well put.

However this won't invite many to do the lest effort to be more respectful towards gays, if one holds the slightest reason or belief to oppose them. Because sadly, legitimized hate has a morbid attractive for many.

A quote I find appropiate for this sad observation:

The surest way to work up a crusade in favor of some good cause is to promise people they will have a chance of maltreating someone. To be able to destroy with good conscience, to be able to behave badly and call your bad behavior 'righteous indignation' — this is the height of psychological luxury, the most delicious of moral treats.

- Aldous Huxley

Edited by Bakir

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It's a long story but I once ended up with a gay couple at my open garage door. One was in the car waiting while the other shouted out, (much louder than I would have liked) "I'm married to a man, what's wrong with me?" 

After looking around hoping nobody heard him, my response was, "Why answer your question before asking it?" 

I have since moved.

The main "western" thing is separation of church and state. The church doesn't run the country and nobody in politics wants to be called anything that will endanger his future votes. That's how we ended up with an annual gay parade. Don't you just love the new rainbow?

I am so sick of hearing about gay pride. Don't you think pride should at least come after an acheivement rather than an imbalance?

Of course we now also have aboriginal pride...those proud to be alcoholics. Offended to be called Indians, (a productive race that respects everything and has no enemies). Willing to give a speach in a McDonalds restaurant bathroom worth $5, only to see them cross the street to a liquor depot. 

I am becoming so synical I fear I might miss those in real need.

 

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