Sunnis are right...

[StrugglingForTheLight]

Sunnis are right that God could of made the issue of Imammate clearer. The same is true of Atheists being right about God could of been more manifest and obvious to everyone. He can prove himself to everyone beyond doubt. The same is true of polytheists of time of Mohammad saying God could of brought a sign that no one would of doubted and that he could of brought Angels with the Prophet that all see.

Now the question is are people going to say "it could of been clearer, more definitive" and take it as excuse to deny what is clear enough, what is sufficient as a proof and sign and indication of the truth?

...it is only your trial, you guide who you want and lead astray who you want....

 

Edited April 12, 2016 by StrugglingForTheLight

[Talut]

What is more clear than the fact that Abu Bakr was appointed by people and that there is no proof or whatsoever that his caliphacy was in accordance with the Will of Allah?

[yasahebalzaman.313]

Make the Imammate clearer? You're questioning the way God has delivered us the religion? Not enough evidence you say. So the 300 verses about ahlulbayt that are written in the quran aren't enough? Or when the sun replied to imam ali? or the day of ghadeer, the day of moubahala and many many other things that i don't need to mention. All this scientific and islamic renaissance cause of our imams isn't enough?

It is clearer and it is definitely enough. I used to be a non-muslim girl who was so lost and driven by this world in the most horrible ways you can imagine. I didn't even know what is sunni and what is shiism to being with. But here i am now... There's no need to tell you about my commitment but most people tell me that i'm an extremist because i hold on to my religion so much and i see nothing else beside it.

There is nothing wrong with history nor the way that this religion and the truth were delivered to us. It's whether God wants a person to be guided and if this person wants to be guided and engifted to begin with then yes a sunni would convert to a shia and a christian a jew a buddhist an atheist etc etc they would all convert to Shia, because it is the one true path and those who wanna believe have enough proofs in front of them.

[Abu Nur]

^ read his statement here:

Quote

Now the question is are people going to say "it could of been clearer, more definitive" and take it as excuse to deny what is clear enough, what is sufficient as a proof and sign and indication of the truth?

...it is only your trial, you guide who you want and lead astray who you want....

 

Edited April 12, 2016 by Dhulfikar

[yasahebalzaman.313]

I didn't read the whole thread the title annoyed me also

[Don'tMakeAس]

"Will they wait until Allah comes to them in canopies of clouds, with angels (in His train) and the question is (thus) settled? but to Allah do all questions go back (for decision)." [2:210]

Edited April 12, 2016 by Shaykh Patience101

[ServantOfTheOne]

"Bismillah Arrahmaan Arraheem,

This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard against evil

Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them."

 

The argument for the Existence of God can be made to Atheists to look for the signs and come to the definitive truth.

The argument for the Seal of Prophethood can be made to Jews and Christians to look for the signs and come to the definitive truth.

The argument for Wilayat Ameerul Mu'mineed Ali (as) can be made to Sunnis to look for the signs and come to the definitive truth.

[Abu-Dina]

1 hour ago, ServantOfTheOne said:

 

This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard against evil

Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them."

 

Sorry brother but it's not "This Book" it's actually "That Book" so it remains a mystery which book the Quran is referring to. Something to think about.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Abu-Dina

[ServantOfTheOne]

True, it does say dhalika not haathaa.

 

But I was using the clause "Those who believe in the unseen" in order to get to my point further down.

[zainabamy]

I think that the issue of Imamate is clear, the reason why there are Muslims who don't know about it is because there are ignorant people who don't read the books of their own sect let alone other sects because they are told to stay away from them. When you study the Seerah and the lives of those who were closest to the Prophet (sawa), it becomes obvious that Allah (swt) always planned for Ali (as) to be the Imam and successor. 

As for the atheist argument, I understand what you mean. I don't understand why Allah (swt) doesn't show a huge massive sign from the heavens right now to show everyone that He exists. But the Qur'an does say that even if Allah (swt) did do that there would always be people who wouldn't believe because there is a seal over their hearts. Some people are so stubborn that they would quickly dismiss such an event and say well science can prove why this happened.  

[Talut]

3 hours ago, Abu-Dina said:

Sorry brother but it's not "This Book" it's actually "That Book" so it remains a mystery which book the Quran is referring to. Something to think about.

What surah came before 'That Book'?

[Mr. Kitty]

Saying "God could have made it clearer" is a disrespect towards God, advising what he could have done or not. God gave the intellect to everyone, which is the tool to finding God and the truth. Waste the tool or dont use it, will have it's consequences. Sunnis are nothing but the ones wasting the intellect for own pleasures. 

[ServantOfTheOne]

"What surah came before 'That Book'?"

Surat Al Mutaffifeen, apparently. And you can try to read it as a continuation. It does make sense.

But I am not a mufasir. But it is an interesting perspective.

Edited April 12, 2016 by ServantOfTheOne

[allsayyidsareahlulbayt!]

aa,

well bsimi Allah applies in/by/with the name of Allah, ie muhammd and ali his great names, and the personalities being the manifestation of his names on earth.

[Zamestaneh]

16 hours ago, yasahebalzaman.313 said:

Make the Imammate clearer? You're questioning the way God has delivered us the religion? Not enough evidence you say. So the 300 verses about ahlulbayt that are written in the quran aren't enough? Or when the sun replied to imam ali? or the day of ghadeer, the day of moubahala and many many other things that i don't need to mention. All this scientific and islamic renaissance cause of our imams isn't enough?

It is clearer and it is definitely enough. I used to be a non-muslim girl who was so lost and driven by this world in the most horrible ways you can imagine. I didn't even know what is sunni and what is shiism to being with. But here i am now... There's no need to tell you about my commitment but most people tell me that i'm an extremist because i hold on to my religion so much and i see nothing else beside it.

There is nothing wrong with history nor the way that this religion and the truth were delivered to us. It's whether God wants a person to be guided and if this person wants to be guided and engifted to begin with then yes a sunni would convert to a shia and a christian a jew a buddhist an atheist etc etc they would all convert to Shia, because it is the one true path and those who wanna believe have enough proofs in front of them.

Lol I used to be a non-Muslim boy but after never having encountered Islam or Muslims in any large degree in my life, Allah guided me to Islam as I turned from 18 to 19 and went onto 20. I avoided the sect thing at first, holding favourable views of both sides, seeing both as legitimate (in my naïvety), however after reading into the evidences to support both sects whilst avoiding the propoganda and slander that each group ascribes to each other e.g. all shia whip themselves, sunnis are wahabi extremists and moulded the religion during the Ummayid era in favour of Umar and Abu Bakr etc, I became Sunni for the reason that it makes more logical sense, the evidence was stronger, the Quran supports their practices more than Shia practices etc.

Now obviously you (and many others) will disagree with me, saying who am I to judge the strength of evidence, say the Quran supports who over who more etc, but in all seriousness, I used logical reasoning without the added emotional conflation that I have seen many other brothers and sisters use when trying to prove their beliefs, and InshaAllah/Alhamdulillah I have found the haq. I essentually would thus say the same as you but instead say every Shia would become a Sunni etc if they sincerely sought the guidance of Allah and looked at the arguments of both groups rationally, honestly and fairly... it's just a matter of what we consider to be logical or rational in the first place which defines how we lend strength to each argument, so that is the defining part of what makes you Shia and me Sunni...

Edited April 12, 2016 by Zamestaneh

[S.M.H.A.]

10 minutes ago, Zamestaneh said:

Lol I used to be a non-Muslim boy but after never having encountered Islam or Muslims in any large degree in my life, Allah guided me to Islam as I turned from 18 to 19 and went onto 20. I avoided the sect thing at first, holding favourable views of both sides, seeing both as legitimate (in my naïvety), however after reading into the evidences to support both sects whilst avoiding the propoganda and slander that each group ascribes to each other e.g. all shia whip themselves, sunnis are wahabi extremists and moulded the religion during the Ummayid era in favour of Umar and Abu Bakr etc, I became Sunni for the reason that it makes more logical sense, the evidence was stronger, the Quran supports their practices more than Shia practices etc.

Now obviously you (and many others) will disagree with me, saying who am I to judge the strength of evidence, say the Quran supports who over who more etc, but in all seriousness, I used logical reasoning without the added emotional conflation that I have seen many other brothers and sisters use when trying to prove their beliefs, and InshaAllah/Alhamdulillah I have found the haq. I essentually would thus say the same as you but instead say every Shia would become a Sunni etc if they sincerely sought the guidance of Allah and looked at the arguments of both groups rationally, honestly and fairly... it's jut a matter of what we consider to be logical or rational in the first place which defines how we lend strength to each argument...

Some one looking into Islam from outside- 

Based on your research do you think [ Utilizing Logical and Rational reasoning] 

Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp] announced a successor, if Yes - who is it or if No. What method was left for the Muslims to follow by the Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp].

Based on the answer , How does this question impact the Status of the Prophethood and ultimately Tawheed.

[StrugglingForTheLight]

Sunni Islam - the Quran shows submission to God through his chosens only for us to be no longer guided by chosen ones and be at the mercy of the "masses" and their "leaders" whether religious political or other, to lead us.

Shia Islam - the Quran shows submission to God through his chosen ones, only for us to come to realize the status of the best of his chosen ones, attach ourselves to them, and await the return of the last of them so that world unites on the guidance of God through attachment to his representative on earth.

Sunni Islam - Allah sealed Prophethood to end divine leadership with Mohammad.

Shia Islam - Allah sealed Prophethood to prefect divine leadership in succession to Mohammad and unite humanity on family of the reminder that the reminder calls to.

Sunni Islam - Allah commanded to obey Tyrants and not rebel against them.

Shia Islam - Allah commanded not to fear people but fear Allah and establish justice and govern according to it with the best of our ability and when oppressed to seek victory.

Sunni Islam - Allah told us about chosen families and chosen offspring, just for heck of it, to adore the past, with no guidance to present time.

Shia Islam - Allah manifested the concept of chosen families in Quran and chosen offspring to emphasize the chosen family of Mohammad who we bless in Salah every day.

Sunni Islam - Wage verses are ambiguous, it could mean so many different things.

Shia Islam - the Wage of the message would not be something God makes ambiguous but is clear, and the clear impression is the chosen family of Mohammad.

Sunni Islam -The Mahdi who will establish justice on earth is non-chosen and is not like Prophets in how they are chosen.

Shia Islam - the Mahdi is definitely chosen like Prophets are, and to say otherwise would be negating is whole theme in the Quran, and make this promise to humanity absent from Quran and with no philosophy to it in the Quran.

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2016 by StrugglingForTheLight

[yasahebalzaman.313]

@Zamestaneh You're funny. As much as I can indulge in a useless debate, experience taught me not to waste time with people like yourself cause it's pointless.

[Zamestaneh]

12 minutes ago, yasahebalzaman.313 said:

@Zamestaneh You're funny. As much as I can indulge in a useless debate, experience taught me not to waste time with people like yourself cause it's pointless.

That's a fair enough to not get involved in useless debate, but my implied point still stands: if the teachings were so clear to indicate Shi'ism is correct, then by Allah I would be a Shia right now; it is only how you and I and anyone else chooses to weight the strength of the individual elements which make up the arguments to support either side, therefore everthing you said was completely subjective and not constructive in addressing the fundemental issue of there being a lack of evidence for the Imamate.

[Zamestaneh]

16 hours ago, Mr. Kitty said:

Saying "God could have made it clearer" is a disrespect towards God, advising what he could have done or not. God gave the intellect to everyone, which is the tool to finding God and the truth. Waste the tool or dont use it, will have it's consequences. Sunnis are nothing but the ones wasting the intellect for own pleasures. 

Allah already made it clear - clear the fact that no such concept is clear in the Quran, therefore there is little evidence to support it - that is using intellect; it is not use of intellect to make obscure abstractions of ayaat and twist them with mental gynastics in order to support a point of view, as I have seen done with some people using ayaat to support major Shirk (like making dua directly to the deceased Ahlul Bayt), Naudhubillah...

[yam_110]

12 hours ago, Zamestaneh said:

Lol I used to be a non-Muslim boy but after never having encountered Islam or Muslims in any large degree in my life, Allah guided me to Islam as I turned from 18 to 19 and went onto 20. I avoided the sect thing at first, holding favourable views of both sides, seeing both as legitimate (in my naïvety), however after reading into the evidences to support both sects whilst avoiding the propoganda and slander that each group ascribes to each other e.g. all shia whip themselves, sunnis are wahabi extremists and moulded the religion during the Ummayid era in favour of Umar and Abu Bakr etc, I became Sunni for the reason that it makes more logical sense, the evidence was stronger, the Quran supports their practices more than Shia practices etc.

Now obviously you (and many others) will disagree with me, saying who am I to judge the strength of evidence, say the Quran supports who over who more etc, but in all seriousness, I used logical reasoning without the added emotional conflation that I have seen many other brothers and sisters use when trying to prove their beliefs, and InshaAllah/Alhamdulillah I have found the haq. I essentually would thus say the same as you but instead say every Shia would become a Sunni etc if they sincerely sought the guidance of Allah and looked at the arguments of both groups rationally, honestly and fairly... it's just a matter of what we consider to be logical or rational in the first place which defines how we lend strength to each argument, so that is the defining part of what makes you Shia and me Sunni...

 Brother,

Interesting to read your analysis and your take on why you accepted Sunni Islam. I respect your stance but I am interested in understanding your analysis which lead you to believe that Sunni practices are supported by Quran. And you further state that every Shia would become a Sunni if they sincerely sought guidance of Allah swt. This part is where you lost me. Would you be able to share your findings with us on the below mentioned points which I assume have been thought of by you before your acceptance of Sunni Islam?

1.  Caliphate

Quran says: Only Allah swt selects caliphs on earth.

Sunnis say: Prophet pbuh did not leave any successor and left it for the ummah to decide.

Shia say: Prophet pbuh declared based on the divine revelation that Imam Ali (as) was his successor.

Hadith says: Prophet pbuh never left Medina without a leader whenever he had to travel somewhere. So how did he leave it to the ummah when he knew that he was travelling to the heavenly abode? Doesn't make sense.

Quran and Hadith support Shias stand here.

2. Love for the ahlulbayt

Quran says: Love the family of the Prophet pbuh. Verse 42:23

Hadith says: Read Hadith Thaqlayn. This hadith is being shrewdly hidden from the common public despite it being present in the Sahih books of the Sunnis and a forged narration which doesn't find a mention in any of the 6 Sunni Sahih books is instead presented everywhere.

Sunnis say: Love the sahabas more than the Ahlulbayt. 

Shia say: Love the ahlulbayt as commanded by Allah swt and His Messenger pbuh.

I know you will start jumping up and down in your seat saying that Sunnis love the family of the Prophet pbuh but just think how can the killers of the ahlulbayt be called RaziAllah anhu if you really love the family of the holy Prophet?

Again, Quran and Hadith support Shias stand here.

3. Imamat

Quran says: [Pickthal 5:55] Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poordue, and bow down (in prayer).

Hadith says: Only Imam Ali (as) gave a ring whilst in ruku.

Sunni say: This is for everyone who gives zakat.

Shia say: Allah's swt order is quite clear and Imam Ali (as) is the wali after Allah swt and the Holy Prophet pbuh.

Again, Quran and Hadith support Shias stand here.

4. Declaration at Ghadeer

Quran says: Today, I have perfected your religion. 5:3

Hadith says: Prophet pbuh after making people wait who were returning from Hajj gave a long sermon and towards the end of which he narrated the famous lines that Imam Ali (as) is the master of those who he is the master. Put the complete hadith in context and you will understand the meaning of the word Maula.

Sunni say: Event occurred but play down the context without any logical reasoning.

Shia say: Prophet's pbuh command is being folllowed.

I again see Quran and Hadith supporting Shias stand here.

 

I have for the sake of brevity not touched upon many incidents but would let you do more analysis on the events like Feast of Dhul-ashira where Imam Ali (as) was declared the successor by the Prophet pbuh, Hadith Manzila, Closing the doors of all the sahabas which faced the mosque except that of Imam Ali(as), Event of Mubahila, Verse of Purification, Incident of Fadak where Quranic verses were negated with a fabricated narration etc. But as you can see it's only Shias who are logically the real followers of Quran and the Holy Prophet's sunnah.

 

In a nutshell, Islamic history right from it's inception (Feast of Dhul-ashira) to the last stage of Prophet's life (Event of Ghadeer Qum) fully supports Shia views and I find it funny when you say that you found Sunni practices to be logical and you hope that Shias would sought guidance and become Sunnis. This is like keeping a 100 W bulb in front of the sun and saying that the bulb is more brighter than the sun. 

I am sorry if I have offended you but I wanted to understand how you came to the conclusion that you have.

 

I can only pray that Allah swt guides those are seeking the truth sincerely.

 

[Mr. Kitty]

8 hours ago, Zamestaneh said:

Allah already made it clear - clear the fact that no such concept is clear in the Quran, therefore there is little evidence to support it - that is using intellect; it is not use of intellect to make obscure abstractions of ayaat and twist them with mental gynastics in order to support a point of view, as I have seen done with some people using ayaat to support major Shirk (like making dua directly to the deceased Ahlul Bayt), Naudhubillah...

You have no idea what you are talking about.

[GreatChineseFall]

On 4/12/2016 at 3:31 AM, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Sunnis are right that God could of made the issue of Imammate clearer. The same is true of Atheists being right about God could of been more manifest and obvious to everyone. He can prove himself to everyone beyond doubt. The same is true of polytheists of time of Mohammad saying God could of brought a sign that no one would of doubted and that he could of brought Angels with the Prophet that all see.

Now the question is are people going to say "it could of been clearer, more definitive" and take it as excuse to deny what is clear enough, what is sufficient as a proof and sign and indication of the truth?

...it is only your trial, you guide who you want and lead astray who you want....

Such a bad comparison, I am sorry to say. There is no request to prove the infallibilty of the Imams, there is no request to prove the Imams existed. The fallacy you are making is that a request for proof of something that exists like Allah or a sign or something like that is not the same as the request for the proof of a rule to do something. If I am asking you to prove that a pig is unhygienic and must be forbidden to eat, surely that is not the same as asking you to prove that a rule exists that forbids eating.

If you insist on drawing a comparison then it's the same as Christians claiming that prophet Isa is the son of God. We are not asking them (or at least not all of the time) to prove the divinity of Isa or what signs he had done in the past, we are simply asking for a statement where he declares such a thing. This really shouldn't be too hard, especially if it is a fundamental part of faith.

On 4/12/2016 at 1:32 AM, Zamestaneh said:

Lol I used to be a non-Muslim boy but after never having encountered Islam or Muslims in any large degree in my life, Allah guided me to Islam as I turned from 18 to 19 and went onto 20. I avoided the sect thing at first, holding favourable views of both sides, seeing both as legitimate (in my naïvety), however after reading into the evidences to support both sects whilst avoiding the propoganda and slander that each group ascribes to each other e.g. all shia whip themselves, sunnis are wahabi extremists and moulded the religion during the Ummayid era in favour of Umar and Abu Bakr etc, I became Sunni for the reason that it makes more logical sense, the evidence was stronger, the Quran supports their practices more than Shia practices etc.

Now obviously you (and many others) will disagree with me, saying who am I to judge the strength of evidence, say the Quran supports who over who more etc, but in all seriousness, I used logical reasoning without the added emotional conflation that I have seen many other brothers and sisters use when trying to prove their beliefs, and InshaAllah/Alhamdulillah I have found the haq. I essentually would thus say the same as you but instead say every Shia would become a Sunni etc if they sincerely sought the guidance of Allah and looked at the arguments of both groups rationally, honestly and fairly... it's just a matter of what we consider to be logical or rational in the first place which defines how we lend strength to each argument, so that is the defining part of what makes you Shia and me Sunni...

There is nothing wrong with shia's, it's just that some of these twelver shia's and their entire foundations are so unreasonable. It's unfortunate they have eclipsed all these others.

[StrugglingForTheLight]

5 hours ago, GreatChineseFall said:

Such a bad comparison, I am sorry to say.

The issue to me is when shown evidence, people always say it could be more clear in Quran, it can be more manifest. And I'm saying this is true, but it's the same of those others things I mentioned. Quran confirms that these things can be more clearer and manifest to people. 

To me the issue of the heart of the issue, is that there is a trial in all this, it's clear enough for those who seek the truth, and as for hard hearts with a disease,  they will stick to what is unclear and unclear interpretation rather then resorting to the clear signs of Quran and Sunnah.

[investigating]

21 hours ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

The issue to me is when shown evidence, people always say it could be more clear in Quran, it can be more manifest. And I'm saying this is true, but it's the same of those others things I mentioned. Quran confirms that these things can be more clearer and manifest to people. 

To me the issue of the heart of the issue, is that there is a trial in all this, it's clear enough for those who seek the truth, and as for hard hearts with a disease,  they will stick to what is unclear and unclear interpretation rather then resorting to the clear signs of Quran and Sunnah.

Brother, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon you.

I being a NON-SHIA would only consider IMAMATE to be a part of fundamental article of faith if it is supported, illustrated and explained by Qur'an the same way this glorious book explained the status of Messengership/Prophethood.

There are over 600+ verses in Qur'an:

1) Commanding the believers to believe in Prophets and Messengers. (Making it a criteria of salvation)

2) Telling them their stories on how Allah helped them against their enemies.

3) How those who followed them were successful and those denied them were disgraced in this world and hereafter.

And so on...

Shia scholars consider the station of IMAMATE to be greater than all divinely appointed stations namely Prophethood/Messengership based on verse 2:124. If the interpretation of 2:124 really suggests the same, than how come it is not clarified in Qur'an like Prophethood/Messengership?

If by Imamah you mean "Leadership" than I have no objection. By that definition "Kingdomship" is also well-proven from Qur'an but that doesn't give this title a divine status unless attributed to the divinely appointed Prophet or Messenger.

However, this is no clue in Qur'an which:

i) Commands us to believe in the Imams sent by Allah in the Ummah or even in previous nations same as Allah commands us to believe in Allah, Angels, Messengers, Books, day of jugement etc. in many different places?

ii) That commands us to follow 12 individuals from the progeny of Prophet (Sallauhu alaihi wasallam) ....

Or at least some concept concluded from following kind of verses:

O muhammed ! the world cannot be empty from IMAM… surely I will appoint 12 individuals from your progeny to lead Muslims as I appointed Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ'il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), Ya'qûb (Jacob) and Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Ya'qûb (Jacob)] and (Moses), 'Iesa (Jesus) and other Prophets to lead mankind. Tell the people to obey them after you for infact they all are infallibles.. & surely there is a extreme torment for those who disbelieve !!!

Oh ye who believe, know you not that Allah always send imams for the people to lead them & to tell the right path of ISLAM? Surely those who disbelieve in regard of my appointed IMAMS has clearly gone astray…

“O Muhammed ! say the people to follow the 12 imams which will be from your progeny to whom Allah will guide as he guided ibraham & other imams from his progeny! “ (sooraeiy imamat :12) 

(Allah FORBIDS) 

If Imamate is really the fundamental article of faith of Islam without above clarity then I will have to doubt the following verses of Qur'an (May Allah forgive me):

And this Qur'ân is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allâh, but it is a confirmation of (the revelation) which was before it, and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws and orders, etc, decreed for mankind) - wherein there is no doubt from the the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinns,and all that exists). (10:37)

 

Indeed in their stories, there is a lesson for men of understanding. It (the Qur'an) is not a forged statement but a confirmation of the Allâh's existing Books and a detailed explanation of everything and a guide and a Mercy for the people who believe. (12:111)

 

And We have appointed the night and the day as two Ayât (signs etc.). Then, We have made dark the sign of the night while We have made the sign of day illuminating, that you may seek bounty from your Lord, and that you may know the number of the years and the reckoning. And We have explained everything (in detail) with full explanation. (17:12)

 

[Abu Nur]

-

Edited April 18, 2016 by Dhulfikar

[ServantOfTheOne]

1 hour ago, investigating said:

I being a NON-SHIA would only consider IMAMATE to be a part of fundamental article of faith if it is supported, illustrated and explained by Qur'an the same way this glorious book explained the status of Messengership/Prophethood.

There are so many things the Quran has not detailed explicitly. Allah wants you to pray, but prayer is not in the Quran. So according to your logic, just kneel down and make dua.

Hajj is not clearly detailed, prayer of the dead is not detailed, various dietary foods of sea have not been categorised, Many grey areas for land creatures too such as "rabbit".

Islam is not just about IMAMATE as you put it. It is also about all other other actions and aspects of belief. If you want to have explicit instructions to follow islam from the Quran, be prepared to apply this to all the other things which are vague in the Quran. You can't have it both ways.

[Abu-Jafar Herz]

On 4/13/2016 at 3:54 AM, Zamestaneh said:

Allah already made it clear - clear the fact that no such concept is clear in the Quran, therefore there is little evidence to support it - that is using intellect; it is not use of intellect to make obscure abstractions of ayaat and twist them with mental gynastics in order to support a point of view, as I have seen done with some people using ayaat to support major Shirk (like making dua directly to the deceased Ahlul Bayt), Naudhubillah...

Major shirk to "deceased" Ahlul bayt?

Firstly....

وَلَا تَحْسَبَنَّ الَّذِينَ قُتِلُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ أَمْوَاتًا ۚ بَلْ أَحْيَاءٌ عِنْدَ رَبِّهِمْ يُرْزَقُونَ

Secondly, do you know what shirk is? Shirk is when you ascribe attributes of Allah to someone else or when you do an action to that entity which implies said attributes, care to share with me what attributes are being shared with the ahlul  bayt when we ask them to make dua to Allah? 

Care to explain to me how asking someone to make dua to Allah is "shirk," ? If you tell me its because they're dead in your understanding, I just proved that they are not dead but alive with their lord. Even if they were dead, how would that imply associating partners with Allah by asking someone to make dua for us?

If Allah brings my request of dua for himself to the hearing of the prophet then is in no way, shape, or form shirk. Since I am not giving any divine attributes to the creation, nor am I doing any action that implies such. Bowing down to someone else is shirk because of the meaning it applies, that is; it means im saying that "x" entity has this attribute of owning me, and I am submitting to him. This is why the angels weren't worshiping Adam [as] when they bowed to him; this was because they did so under the submission and order of Allah.

Regarding what you said on the topic of Imamah, Imamah is all over the Qur'an, including the authentic mutawatir narrations. Imamah is very clear in the Qur'an. Your inability to see what is clear is just like the billions of Christians who don't follow Islam, even though Islam is clear as day many of them reject it claiming "it does not have enough evidence, and if it was clear we'd be Muslims." Tell me, what is the difference between them and you in this regard?

 

[StrugglingForTheLight]

Salam

Investigating, I'm convinced that Imammate is clear enough. Not only does it tie with the issue of that you must believe in it, but ties it with the wisdom of why God sent Messengers in the first place. That is why I'm not really convinced people really believe in the wisdom of God sending Messengers when disbelieving in Imammate, they believe in Messengers simply because they believe in Mohammad, but don't believe in Messengers out of insight the Quran gives.

I think if a person was a Deist:

The chances are they will not see how Quran proves Prophethood.

If a person was an Atheist:

The chances are they will not see how Quran proves God and Tawheed.

If a person was Quranist:

The chances are they will not see how Quran proves the need of the Sunnah

If a person was A Christian or Jew:

The chances are they will not see how Quran proves Mohammad.

If a person is a Sunni:

All of a sudden you are saying they will see the family of Mohammad if it's clear enough.

The issue of whether it can be clearer or not, is not the issue. In fact, Quranist can say the same thing of the need of the Sunnah and ahadith. Why didn't Allah say "O you who believe, aside from what the Prophet teaches of the Quran, there is much you must hold on to from his sayings and teachings and example that you must preserve"

 

[GreatChineseFall]

On 4/17/2016 at 3:46 PM, StrugglingForTheLight said:

The issue to me is when shown evidence, people always say it could be more clear in Quran, it can be more manifest. And I'm saying this is true, but it's the same of those others things I mentioned. Quran confirms that these things can be more clearer and manifest to people. 

To me the issue of the heart of the issue, is that there is a trial in all this, it's clear enough for those who seek the truth, and as for hard hearts with a disease,  they will stick to what is unclear and unclear interpretation rather then resorting to the clear signs of Quran and Sunnah.

I think you give the people who disagree with you too much credit, it's not that they say that it could have been clearer, they say it's clear enough that it's not as you say.

 

On 4/18/2016 at 5:03 PM, StrugglingForTheLight said:

I think if a person was a Deist:

The chances are they will not see how Quran proves Prophethood.

And this is why I say your example is such a bad example. How would he not see how Quran proves Prophethood? He might not believe that the Quran is the truth but I am pretty sure he would be able to conclude that the Quran proves clearly Prophethood. I have yet to encounter a person who would conclude otherwise.

On 4/18/2016 at 5:03 PM, StrugglingForTheLight said:

If a person was an Atheist:

The chances are they will not see how Quran proves God and Tawheed.

Again, exactly the same as above, if you could point me to a person who believes that the Quran doesn't prove the unity of Allah, I would be interested to see that.

On 4/18/2016 at 5:03 PM, StrugglingForTheLight said:

If a person was Quranist:

The chances are they will not see how Quran proves the need of the Sunnah

This is the only example that might partly make sense.

On 4/18/2016 at 5:03 PM, StrugglingForTheLight said:

If a person was A Christian or Jew:

The chances are they will not see how Quran proves Mohammad.

He is literally named in the Quran, what do you mean? I think you mix two entirely different things.

On 4/18/2016 at 5:03 PM, StrugglingForTheLight said:

If a person is a Sunni:

All of a sudden you are saying they will see the family of Mohammad if it's clear enough.

The family of Muhammad is clear enough, the Quran is not even crucial in proving that. What you think is necessary for a person's faith with regards to the Prophet's family is absolutely not clear from the Quran. It's even quite clear that it is not as you describe. If you think that is as clear as Tawheed and Prophethood then that just shows where the problem is.

[Althaqalayn12]

On 4/12/2016 at 6:31 PM, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Sunnis are right that God could of made the issue of Imammate clearer. The same is true of Atheists being right about God could of been more manifest and obvious to everyone. He can prove himself to everyone beyond doubt. The same is true of polytheists of time of Mohammad saying God could of brought a sign that no one would of doubted and that he could of brought Angels with the Prophet that all see.

Now the question is are people going to say "it could of been clearer, more definitive" and take it as excuse to deny what is clear enough, what is sufficient as a proof and sign and indication of the truth?

...it is only your trial, you guide who you want and lead astray who you want....

 

It's a test for the Muslims too. Muslims will be divided into 73 groups, and the group of imam Ali are the winners the prophet said peace and blessings be upon him and his family.

[StrugglingForTheLight]

So how is it when we bring from every people a witness and make you a witness against these?

On that day those who disbelieve and disobeyed the Messenger that the earth was levelled with them and that they didn't hide from God a saying.

O you who believe, do not go near prayer when you are intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to a perform a both - unless (you are) travelling on the road - until you have washed yourselves, and if you are sick or on a journey, or on of you from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, and wipe your faces and your hands, surely God is Pardoning Forgiving.

Do you not see those given a portion from the book they buy error and desire you go astray from the path.

And God knows your enemies and sufficient is God as a Guardian and Sufficient is he as helper.

From the Jews were people who alter words from their places and they say we heard and disobeyed, and they heard as one who hears not and listen to us distorting with their tongue and slandering the religion and if they said we heard and we obeyed and do hear and look upon us it would of been better for them and more upright but God has cursed them for their disbelieve so they don't believe but a little.

O you who are given the book, believe   in what We have (now) revealed, confirming what was (already) with you, before We change the face and fame of some (of you) beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of God Must be carried out.

Indeed God doesn't forgive to be associated with him, and he forgives what is below that of who he pleases, and who associates with God he devised a great sin.

Do you not see those who attribute purity to themselves, but rather God purifies who he wills, and they will not be dealt with unjustly.

See how they attribute lies to God and sufficient is it as great sin.

Do you not see how a portion are given a portion from the book, they believe in the Jibt (sorcery) and Taghut (that which is falsely worshipped or that which transgresses bounds) and say these are more guided then who believe in a path.

These are they who God has cursed, and who God has cursed you will not find a helper.

Is it that they have a share in the authority? So they would not give the people in even a speck in the date stone.

Or do they envy the people for what God has given them out of his grace? So we gave the family of Abraham, the book and the wisdom, and gave them a great authority.

So of them is who believed in it and of them is who turned away from it,and sufficient is hell as burning.

Indeed those who disbelieve in Our Ayat (instances of guidance, signs, revelations, etc), We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely God is Mighty, Wise.

And (as for) those who believe and do good deeds, We will make them enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them for ever; they shall have therein pure mates, and We shall make them enter a dense shade.

God commands you to give the trusts to their owners, and that if you judge between people, to do so by justice, indeed God admonishes with you what is excellent, indeed God is hearing knowing.

O You who believe, obey God and obey the Messenger and those who possess the authority from you, therefore if you dispute in a thing, refer it to God and the Messenger if you believe in God and the last day, this is better and best in ending. 

 

 

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These verses are beyond clear.  People can act obtuse all they want, and yes God could of been clearer but he is clear enough.

 

[StrugglingForTheLight]

2 hours ago, Althaqalayn12 said:

It's a test for the Muslims too. Muslims will be divided into 73 groups, and the group of imam Ali are the winners the prophet said peace and blessings be upon him and his family.

It is a test, and Quran talks about how Satan regarding every recitation or desire of a Prophet, makes a suggestion, but then God clarifies his Ayat, and that the hard hearts will follow that which Satan inspires and that it be a trial for them. So God always purposely designs his books so that there can be the blessed recitation versus a cursed recitation. And the blessed recitation is easily seen and submitted to, if people, don't come with a heart that is against God's chosen ones, and come sincere to God, and his path. Of course, the issue is people always worship men over God.  It's been human history, that God is associated men in worship. That is people are valued on par with God that submission to them is take as important or even more important then submission to God. This is true of all sects.  

The Quran also talks about how there is clear signs from the book and then there comes to it what is unclear, and how diseased heart people follow that which is unclear.  This is due to them inclining to the recitation of Satan, and what he suggests. The book is designed so despite it being a clear book, it allowed room for diseased heart people to ignore clear muhkamat.

We see this even things that have nothing to do with the Sunni-Shia issue like verses about Wudoo and there is other verses as well, this is done, and it has nothing to do with it being unclear, but everything to do with people making the book something that should submit to their desires and lead, rather then it being the leader by which we submit to and learn from.

 

 

 

 

 

[S.M.H.A.]

On 4/18/2016 at 7:24 AM, investigating said:

Brother, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon you.

I being a NON-SHIA would only consider IMAMATE to be a part of fundamental article of faith if it is supported, illustrated and explained by Qur'an the same way this glorious book explained the status of Messengership/Prophethood.

 

The concept of Succession, after Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp]. If you believe that god did not appoint and the prophet did not announce the successor. Considering all that has happened in this regard in last 1400 years, what is about ot happen, one will surely doubt that a divine message was unclear and ambiguous. We can put all the ills among the  Muslims on the very divine.

Does this not lead to disbelief in such god and such prophet? 

and leads people to Atheism and Agnosticism?

[Althaqalayn12]

ما قال امير الؤمنين عليه السلام what amir almumineen said about the end of times