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Zamestaneh

Calling upon the Ahlul Bayt

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5 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

so then our argument is changing. According to you, the issue is not doing tawassul but doing tawassul using dead versus alive people. Is that your stance brother?

I guess (and hope) Follower Of Truth schooled you enough;no need for me to add anything.

Edited by iubelum

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Let's make sure we are not taking other associates, partners and guardian except what Allah[awj] has commanded.

"So, Iblis had neither any defect in the principle of belief in Allah’s being the Creator, or in belief in Allah’s Lordship in creation and nor in belief in ma’ad. But still he falls so much! Why? Because he does not believe in Allah’s Lordship in Law-giving (Divine legislation) and docs not regard Allah’s command to be obeyed unquestionably, unless Allah’s command would be consistent with (Ibis’s) own thought and desire." 2

http://www.al-islam.org/ghadir/incident.htm

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3 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

i get very shocked seeing people being desperate and crazy to support own thought by confusing things with one another while the things are actually different quietly. here i said that when you directly asking something from other than Allah which can only be given by Allah then it is shirk. such as method 1 in the 1st post of this thread where one asks hussain to make his heart steady and give him good grades. subhanallah, how can one ask that from other than Allah? do imams control heart?

The very obvious needs to be repeated to the Shirk Brigade all the time. Method #1, #2 and #3 is not praying to Hussain but praying through Hussain. There is a big difference in that.

3 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

dont make funny comparison. umar havent asked abbas to give rain. rather he asked Allah to give rain for the sake of abbas. here umar asked Allah, not abbas for rain. if you pray like this, 'o Allah make my heart steady for the sake of hussain' then there is no objection at all. and exactly that is what umar did. if umar asked abbas to give rain then that would be shirk for sure. and exactly that is what i said.

I am glad we are in agreement that tawassul is allowed.

Now what if Umar asked Abbas to pray for rain? Would that be shirk?

3 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

another example of your ignorance(i am sorry, bro) is designating the incident of aisha and zainab as tawassul. it is called 'tabarruk' not 'tawassul'. tabarruk means seeking blessing of Allah from any remnant of holy prophets and pious servants of Allah. Allah will give blessing through such remnants. but tawassul is intercession which is different thing. so no question of shirk in tabarruk.

So we can get blessings of Allah from inanimate objects? and yet it is shirk to ask for blessings of Allah through the people to whom those inanimate objects belonged?

3 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

the incident of yakub is both miracle and tabarruk. miracle means something done by Allah at the hand of any prophet which is beyond the sphere of natural law. such as parting see at the hand of moses, parting the moon at the hand of muhammad pbuh. the miracle is done by Allah at the hand of prophets to prove their truthfulness among people. so again this has nothing to do with invoking other than Allah for asking for something which no one can give but Allah. ali, hussain, may Allah be pleased with them, or any other has no ability to give you anything beyond natural law. it is solely at the hand of Allah. hope i clarified. and dont be silly being confused with irrelevant things.

 thanks for clarifying what I already understood. All miracles are performed by Prophets by the izn (permission) of Allah. That is true for prophets and true for Imams. Where is our argument then?

3 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

subhanallah! the incident of mubahala is compared with calling other than Allah for supernatural help!!! i am astonished. how anyone can see similarity between the two completely different thing?

in surah ale imran the incident is narrated. when a christian delegate from nazran came to rasul sm and he debated with them and pointed out the deviance of christian belief about jesus christ but yet the members of delegate refused to accept. then at Allah's order he challenged them for mubahila. mubahila means asking Allah to curse on the party of falsehood. the ayah of ale imran is as follows:

Then whoever argues (with) you concerning it after what came to you of the knowledge then say, "Come, let us call our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and ourselves and yourselves, then let us pray humbly, and [we] invoke the curse (of) Allah on the liars.

here, Allah orders rasul sm to bring his family members and invite the christian delegate bring their family members and ask the curse of Allah on the liars. if rasul sm is liar then he would be destroyed with his family members and and if christians are liar then they would be destroyed with their family members. the both party would bring their family members to strengthen the mubahala.

how any sane and normal witted person mix this with invoking other than Allah for asking for something that no other can give except Allah?

 

 

Again, thanks for explanation of something I already understand. Why did Allah need the Ahlulbayt or even the Prophet for that matter? Surely Allah knew the Prophet and the Ahlulbayt were not liars and yet He still wanted them to appear in Mubahila and actually curse (la'an) the liars. Could it be that Allah wanted to show us their importance and if Allah requested their presence for invoking cursing (la'an) then surely I can use them for invoking blessings upon myself or whomever.

1 hour ago, iubelum said:

I guess (and hope) Follower Of Truth schooled you enough;no need for me to add anything.

 oh, please add by all means. And I am just getting started with @Follower of Truth. He hasnt said anything I (we) have not heard below. I am just trying to see who I am dealing with.

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6 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

The very obvious needs to be repeated to the Shirk Brigade all the time. Method #1, #2 and #3 is not praying to Hussain but praying through Hussain. There is a big difference in that.

there is nothing in islam as praying through hussain. it is an invention of later generation. such type of prayer through others has no textual proof. prayer to Allah is what is repeated in quran again and again. method 2 is acceptable and this is what can be valid prayer mentioning hussain or or others. there are hadith in both sunni and shia collection to that effect. method 3 is should not be acceptable on the ground that there is no authentic proof even in shia collection to this effect asking dua of deadman. but yes this is not shirk. because you are not asking imam to give you, rather you are asking him to pray to Allah for you.

method 3 is obviously 'prayer to hussain'. not 'prayer through hussain'. very clearly and unambiguously here the one is asking hussain to make his heart steady and give him good results. it is clear cut. you are clearly asking hussain to give you. you are claiming it is not prayer to hussain!! what is prayer to hussain then? and i ask you in which hadith, which imam taught you to invoke the imams?

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7 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

I am glad we are in agreement that tawassul is allowed.

Now what if Umar asked Abbas to pray for rain? Would that be shirk?

i havent said  so called tawassul(?) of asking other than Allah to do something which is only at the hand of Allah is allowed such as 'o hussain, make my heart steady.' yes, if you understand by tawassul to ask Allah for the sake of his beloved servants, then i agree. so i agree if you say, 'o Allah, give me child for the sake of hussain.'. i support it. if you mean by tawassul to ask any dead man to make dua for you to Allah. then i also dont support it because no proof that the dead imams are now all hearing such that they can hear all people from every part of the world. Allah says martyrs are alive in quran. but didnt say how they are alive in barzakh. it is matter of unseen. even when they were alive on earth they could not hear all people of earth from distant places. so after their physical death how can you draw conclusion that they are now such super alive that they hear all people from every part of the world?! but, yes though i dont support this method for lack of proof, it is not shirk because you are asking imams for dua to Allah, not asking imams themselves. so you are not committing shirk.

if umar asked abbas to pray for rain, then there was no question of shirk. but if umar asked abbas to give rain then that would be shirk. this is what i am saying that  method 1 we are discussing is shirk. why you are equating between 'asking to give' like method 1 and 'asking to pray' like method 3. two is different by all means.

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7 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

So we can get blessings of Allah from inanimate objects? and yet it is shirk to ask for blessings of Allah through the people to whom those inanimate objects belonged?

i clarified it before as you see. it is shirk if you ask the beloved servants and objects to give you blessing. it is different from tabarruk where none ask sacred objects to give something. in case of tabarruk you are hoping bliss from Allah through sacred objects, you are not asking the objects to give you blessing. you can ask Allah to give you blessing through beloved ones or you can ask beloved ones to pray for you. but never ever you can ask them to give you blessing.

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7 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

thanks for clarifying what I already understood. All miracles are performed by Prophets by the izn (permission) of Allah. That is true for prophets and true for Imams. Where is our argument then?

our argument is that miracles has nothing to do with what we are discussing. in case of miracle none is praying to prophets or imams to give him something which only Allah can give. miracle is supernatural phenomena in earth by Allah to prove truthfulness of prophets. so how  is this the same with validating asking hussain to make your heart steady like method 1?

i fear someone will start to say, 'so and so has become god with permission of Allah! so now ask to him everything.because he will give you with permission of Allah!' so have to remind that there are some powers and attributes which is devine and only at Allah's hand. he will never delegate these to any other. this is why he is only one god as we say 'no god but Allah'. giving supernatural help is under this shade. so you can not ask this to other than Allah. yes you can ask other to pray for you as method 3. this is different thing. if you study the pagan religions you will find that they believe Allah is creator and sustainer. but he delegated several divine powers and responsibility to his beloved servants making them god and goddess. they say they attained divine power from Allah. but Allah says in quran mora than once that he will never give his servants any divine power.

miracle is not delegation of divine power. because prophets can not do anything if any other ask them to do so. but if Allah deem it necessary to prove prophethood then he will do miraculous events when he wish. this has nothing to with asking other than Allah for divine help. that is my argument.

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again incident of mubahala is quite irrelevant to the topic we are discussing. ahlul bayt is involved in mubahala to increase their honor. how thi

8 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Again, thanks for explanation of something I already understand. Why did Allah need the Ahlulbayt or even the Prophet for that matter? Surely Allah knew the Prophet and the Ahlulbayt were not liars and yet He still wanted them to appear in Mubahila and actually curse (la'an) the liars. Could it be that Allah wanted to show us their importance and if Allah requested their presence for invoking cursing (la'an) then surely I can use them for invoking blessings upon myself or whomever..

unbelievable confusion! Allah knows that rasul and ahlul bayt is not liar but the christians of nazran didnt agree with that. so mubahala was done to challenge christians delegation.as the family of the christian delegation was included in this challenge so common sense is that the other party in this challenge must bring respective family members. mubahala was not for showing us muslims rather it was showing the nonbeliever christians as a challenge. your last sentence has made me laugh. here no request or invocation is involved. here it is a challenge between two parties regarding whether islam or christianity is truth.

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13 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

there is nothing in islam as praying through hussain. it is an invention of later generation. such type of prayer through others has no textual proof. prayer to Allah is what is repeated in quran again and again. method 2 is acceptable and this is what can be valid prayer mentioning hussain or or others. there are hadith in both sunni and shia collection to that effect. method 3 is should not be acceptable on the ground that there is no authentic proof even in shia collection to this effect asking dua of deadman. but yes this is not shirk. because you are not asking imam to give you, rather you are asking him to pray to Allah for you.

method 3 is obviously 'prayer to hussain'. not 'prayer through hussain'. very clearly and unambiguously here the one is asking hussain to make his heart steady and give him good results. it is clear cut. you are clearly asking hussain to give you. you are claiming it is not prayer to hussain!! what is prayer to hussain then? and i ask you in which hadith, which imam taught you to invoke the imams?

I am surprised to hear to say that. I have seen across the board (sunni, shia, muslim, non-muslim) where people go to the most pious of men and women and ask them to pray on their behalf.

Even if I ask a 'dead' man to pray for me, how is that shirk? Am I saying the 'dead' man is God? How can you say it is okay to pray through an object but not through the Ahlulbayt? Does the Quran say it is okay to use a bowl as tabarruk or tawassul and yet you deem that to be okay.

By your own definition, a miracle is something outside the laws of nature done by Allah at the hands of this prophets so why can Allah not allow the miracle of accepting prayers when Hussain is used as an intermediary regardless of the method.

Shirk is in the mind of the requestor.

Any method of the 3 listed is shirk if the person praying thinks whatever Hussain does is outside the izn of Allah
Conversely, any method of the 3 listed is NOT shirk if the person praying thinks whatever Hussain does is within the izn of Allah only.

13 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

Allah says martyrs are alive in quran. but didnt say how they are alive in barzakh. it is matter of unseen. 

so if it is a matter of unseen, then I can be as wrong or as right as you.

 

12 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

i clarified it before as you see. it is shirk if you ask the beloved servants and objects to give you blessing. it is different from tabarruk where none ask sacred objects to give something. in case of tabarruk you are hoping bliss from Allah through sacred objects, you are not asking the objects to give you blessing. you can ask Allah to give you blessing through beloved ones or you can ask beloved ones to pray for you. but never ever you can ask them to give you blessing.

surely you agree shirk is in the mind of the devotee. You can not make a blanket statement that Method #1 is shirk because you do not know if what capacity the devotee is asking Hussain's assistance.

 

12 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

our argument is that miracles has nothing to do with what we are discussing. in case of miracle none is praying to prophets or imams to give him something which only Allah can give. miracle is supernatural phenomena in earth by Allah to prove truthfulness of prophets. so how  is this the same with validating asking hussain to make your heart steady like method 1?

i fear someone will start to say, 'so and so has become god with permission of Allah! so now ask to him everything.because he will give you with permission of Allah!' so have to remind that there are some powers and attributes which is devine and only at Allah's hand. he will never delegate these to any other. this is why he is only one god as we say 'no god but Allah'. giving supernatural help is under this shade. so you can not ask this to other than Allah. yes you can ask other to pray for you as method 3. this is different thing. if you study the pagan religions you will find that they believe Allah is creator and sustainer. but he delegated several divine powers and responsibility to his beloved servants making them god and goddess. they say they attained divine power from Allah. but Allah says in quran mora than once that he will never give his servants any divine power.

miracle is not delegation of divine power. because prophets can not do anything if any other ask them to do so. but if Allah deem it necessary to prove prophethood then he will do miraculous events when he wish. this has nothing to with asking other than Allah for divine help. that is my argument.

To get very specific, what about the miracle of Isa ringing the dead back to life. Allah says in the Quran only gives life and he gives death so how did Isa do it? Did Isa commit shirk? The people asked Isa to give life and he did. Now the people back then knew that Isa's actions were with the IZN of Allah so how come the Muslim of today forgets that.

Just because you fear, "so and so has become god with permission of Allah" does not mean you stop what is legitimately allowed.

 

12 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

again incident of mubahala is quite irrelevant to the topic we are discussing. ahlul bayt is involved in mubahala to increase their honor. how thi

unbelievable confusion! Allah knows that rasul and ahlul bayt is not liar but the christians of nazran didnt agree with that. so mubahala was done to challenge christians delegation.as the family of the christian delegation was included in this challenge so common sense is that the other party in this challenge must bring respective family members. mubahala was not for showing us muslims rather it was showing the nonbeliever christians as a challenge. your last sentence has made me laugh. here no request or invocation is involved. here it is a challenge between two parties regarding whether islam or christianity is truth.

I agree we may be digressing but I have to disagree with the statement in orange bold above. Mubahila was for christians but also for Muslims for 2 reasons:

1) Do not challenge the truthfulness of the Ahlulbayt (as some did after the demise of the Prophet)
2) Show Muslims as well as non-Muslims the highest esteem the Ahlulbayt were held by Allah that He chose them to carry out His mission for him.

Edited by shiaman14

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14 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

I am surprised to hear to say that. I have seen across the board (sunni, shia, muslim, non-muslim) where people go to the most pious of men and women and ask them to pray on their behalf.

Even if I ask a 'dead' man to pray for me, how is that shirk? Am I saying the 'dead' man is God? How can you say it is okay to pray through an object but not through the Ahlulbayt? Does the Quran say it is okay to use a bowl as tabarruk or tawassul and yet you deem that to be okay.

By your own definition, a miracle is something outside the laws of nature done by Allah at the hands of this prophets so why can Allah not allow the miracle of accepting prayers when Hussain is used as an intermediary regardless of the method.

Shirk is in the mind of the requestor.

Any method of the 3 listed is shirk if the person praying thinks whatever Hussain does is outside the izn of Allah
Conversely, any method of the 3 listed is NOT shirk if the person praying thinks whatever Hussain does is within the izn of Allah only.

my brother, first of all i want to say that you haven't either read carefully my post or you misunderstood. please read the post again. one correction is that in the first line of last paragraph i mistakenly wrote method 3 instead of 1. now read the post again. you will notice that i have clearly said that asking dead man to pray for you is not shirk. i told it clearly. then why you are accusing me. but i said that in spite of it not being shirk it is unacceptable. because no proof that the dead prophets or imams can hear your call from wherever of the world you call them. so it is ineffective method. but i have said clearly that it is not shirk. Allah says in the quran,

'And not equal are the living and the dead. Indeed, Allah causes to hear whom He wills, but you cannot make hear those in the graves.' - Surah Fatir 35

another verse from the quran,

'Indeed, you will not make the dead hear, nor will you make the deaf hear the call when they have turned their backs retreating.' -Surah naml 80

have you ever read these verses. dead can not hear. this is general ruling. but in special cases as was narrated in authentic hadith dead may hear. but that specific cases must be supported by proof and evidence. so asking imams for prayer is ineffective unless proof found on the contrary. hope you clear.

Now come to the point of tabarruk. again i am saying what is tabarruk according to both sunni and shia. tabarruk is expecting that Allah will give you blessing through a sacred object which was used by imams(according to shia) and prophets. again i am reminding you that we are discussing about asking other than Allah for supernatural help. but tabarruk is completely different. in this none call or invoke the objects to give blessing. so please don't mix the two different unrelated things.

as for your question why i am supporting tabarruk and is it in the quran. answer is yes. it is in the quran. Allah says in the quran,

'And their Prophet said unto them: Lo! the token of his kingdom is that there shall come unto you the ark wherein is peace of reassurance from your Lord, and a remnant of that which the house of Moses and the house of Aaron left behind, the angels bearing it. Lo! herein shall be a token for you if (in truth) ye are believers.' -Surah Baqarah 248

in this verse Allah says that described the event of talut. here it is stated Allah shall give peace of reassurance, one type of blessing, through the remnants of prophet musa and prophet harun. so you can see proof of tabarruk in the quran. moreover there are several authentic narrations of hadith in both shia and sunni where sahaba did practice of tabarruk in front of rasul sm and he gave silent approve to it. and you yourself gave example of aisha and zainab. so tabarruk is proven very strongly in both the quran and sunnah. if there was no proof of tabarruk then i would refrain from supporting it. but you can not give a single evidence to support your claim to call imams as method1. you are only following your own logic and desire without any evidence in spite of the fact that a matter of religion is not from logic or own speculation, it is from evidence.

as for your claim, shirk is matter of one's own mind, then my response is that no doubt intention is very important and every action depends on intention. but this is also to be noted that the means and procedures also must be valid. if you perform your fajr prayer four rakah instead of two with the intention of attaining double reward then even if your intention is good but it is invalid. same way if any statement bear element of shirk or kufr then it is regarded so. both shia and sunni aqida states that iman and kufr is in mind, in speech and in action. if one's speech and action bear element of kufr and shirk, then his claim of good intention is invalid in this world. later Allah shall deal with him as he wishes.

here asking your imam for supernatural help can not be equated with miracle. miracle is to prove prophecy in this world . this has nothing to with the topic we are discussing.

last of i would say that their is linguistic common sense. if you say, 'o harun, come here', afterward you say that i actually told harun's father through harun to came here. then everyone will laugh at you. it is same. one is saying,'o ali, give me child' later claiming that i actually asked Allah through ali then it is ridiculous.

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15 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

so if it is a matter of unseen, then I can be as wrong or as right as you.

no. the matter is not so simple. it is consensus of muslim ummah that in matters pertaining to religion nothing new can be accepted unless there is a proof. i am not claiming anything new. but you are claiming that whether you call your imam from america, iraq, japan, pakistan, turkey, malaysia your imam shall hear you! so now you have to establish that your imam is such type of super alive! but you will fail.

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15 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

surely you agree shirk is in the mind of the devotee. You can not make a blanket statement that Method #1 is shirk because you do not know if what capacity the devotee is asking Hussain's assistance.

i gave you reply.

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16 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

To get very specific, what about the miracle of Isa ringing the dead back to life. Allah says in the Quran only gives life and he gives death so how did Isa do it? Did Isa commit shirk? The people asked Isa to give life and he did. Now the people back then knew that Isa's actions were with the IZN of Allah so how come the Muslim of today forgets that.

Just because you fear, "so and so has become god with permission of Allah" does not mean you stop what is legitimately allowed.

the same reply as before. miracle and invoking is completely different thing. and nowhere in the quran it is said that people asked isa to bring dead to life and so at his request he brought life. nowhere in the quran. it is in bible. gospel accounts of new testament. and new testament is corrupted and can not be put as evidence for muslims. is corrupted bible it is said that isa was crucified and came back to his disciples after his death. but Allah says that isa was not crucified and raised alive in heaven. so no trust in bible account. Allah says in surah maida 112,

[And remember] when the disciples said, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, can your Lord send down to us a table [spread with food] from the heaven? [Jesus] said," Fear Allah , if you should be believers."

so you can see that the disciples wanted to see a miracle and look at the language. the disciples didn't said, 'o isa, send down food for us.' rather they said him to ask his lord to send down table of food from heaven. exactly the same matter i am trying to say you.

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16 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

I agree we may be digressing but I have to disagree with the statement in orange bold above. Mubahila was for christians but also for Muslims for 2 reasons:
 

1) Do not challenge the truthfulness of the Ahlulbayt (as some did after the demise of the Prophet)
2) Show Muslims as well as non-Muslims the highest esteem the Ahlulbayt were held by Allah that He chose them to carry out His mission for him.

from the flow of language i can't find such. however your understanding may have different. that's not the problem. problem is to show this incidence as support of that we are contending and discussing.

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[72:18] And that the mosques are Allah's, therefore call not upon any one with Allah:

"Invoke not anyone along with Allah,"
implies that nothing is supposed to be associated with God Almighty in worship nor should anything besides Him be regarded as an independent source of willful acts.

---

Du'a (invoke) is the essence of worship. Thus nothing is supposed to associated with God in Du'a.

In Du'a tawassul we call upon the Ahlulbait with Allah (swt), is this not wrong According the Qur'an?

Edited by Dhulfikar

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11 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

my brother, first of all i want to say that you haven't either read carefully my post or you misunderstood. please read the post again. one correction is that in the first line of last paragraph i mistakenly wrote method 3 instead of 1. now read the post again. you will notice that i have clearly said that asking dead man to pray for you is not shirk. i told it clearly. then why you are accusing me. but i said that in spite of it not being shirk it is unacceptable. because no proof that the dead prophets or imams can hear your call from wherever of the world you call them. so it is ineffective method. but i have said clearly that it is not shirk.

I stand corrected then. I agree it is a completely different argument if we are discussing the most effective way versus questioning the way itself.

11 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

Allah says in the quran,

'And not equal are the living and the dead. Indeed, Allah causes to hear whom He wills, but you cannot make hear those in the graves.' - Surah Fatir 35

another verse from the quran,

'Indeed, you will not make the dead hear, nor will you make the deaf hear the call when they have turned their backs retreating.' -Surah naml 80

have you ever read these verses. dead can not hear. this is general ruling. but in special cases as was narrated in authentic hadith dead may hear. but that specific cases must be supported by proof and evidence. so asking imams for prayer is ineffective unless proof found on the contrary. hope you clear.

I see those verses and quote you the following:

[Quran 3:169] And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord;
[Quran 3:170] Rejoicing in what Allah has given them out of His grace and they rejoice for the sake of those who, (being left) behind them, have not yet joined them, that they shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve.
[Quran 3:171] They rejoice on account of favor from Allah and (His) grace, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers.
[Quran 3:172] (As for) those who responded (at Ohud) to the call of Allah and the Messenger after the wound had befallen them, those among them who do good (to others) and guard (against evil)shall have a great reward.

and

[Quran 2:154] And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive.

11 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

Now come to the point of tabarruk. again i am saying what is tabarruk according to both sunni and shia. tabarruk is expecting that Allah will give you blessing through a sacred object which was used by imams(according to shia) and prophets. again i am reminding you that we are discussing about asking other than Allah for supernatural help. but tabarruk is completely different. in this none call or invoke the objects to give blessing. so please don't mix the two different unrelated things.

as for your question why i am supporting tabarruk and is it in the quran. answer is yes. it is in the quran. Allah says in the quran,

'And their Prophet said unto them: Lo! the token of his kingdom is that there shall come unto you the ark wherein is peace of reassurance from your Lord, and a remnant of that which the house of Moses and the house of Aaron left behind, the angels bearing it. Lo! herein shall be a token for you if (in truth) ye are believers.' -Surah Baqarah 248

in this verse Allah says that described the event of talut. here it is stated Allah shall give peace of reassurance, one type of blessing, through the remnants of prophet musa and prophet harun. so you can see proof of tabarruk in the quran. moreover there are several authentic narrations of hadith in both shia and sunni where sahaba did practice of tabarruk in front of rasul sm and he gave silent approve to it. and you yourself gave example of aisha and zainab. so tabarruk is proven very strongly in both the quran and sunnah. if there was no proof of tabarruk then i would refrain from supporting it. but you can not give a single evidence to support your claim to call imams as method1. you are only following your own logic and desire without any evidence in spite of the fact that a matter of religion is not from logic or own speculation, it is from evidence.

I am all for tabarruk so no argument from me brother.

 

11 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

as for your claim, shirk is matter of one's own mind, then my response is that no doubt intention is very important and every action depends on intention. but this is also to be noted that the means and procedures also must be valid. if you perform your fajr prayer four rakah instead of two with the intention of attaining double reward then even if your intention is good but it is invalid. same way if any statement bear element of shirk or kufr then it is regarded so. both shia and sunni aqida states that iman and kufr is in mind, in speech and in action. if one's speech and action bear element of kufr and shirk, then his claim of good intention is invalid in this world. later Allah shall deal with him as he wishes.

here asking your imam for supernatural help can not be equated with miracle. miracle is to prove prophecy in this world . this has nothing to with the topic we are discussing.

you are correct that intention and action matter and since we are not discussing shirk any more but effectiveness of a method of prayer then this point is moot.

11 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

last of i would say that their is linguistic common sense. if you say, 'o harun, come here', afterward you say that i actually told harun's father through harun to came here. then everyone will laugh at you. it is same. one is saying,'o ali, give me child' later claiming that i actually asked Allah through ali then it is ridiculous.

Brother - your analogy is a little off. let's say I work in a company where Haroun is my supervisor and his father Imran is the boss. I know that Imran formally approves all salary increments so I could go directly to Imran for a raise but if I knew that Imran never rejects a proposal from Haroun then I am most likely to go to Haroun with my request for a raise knowing fully well that ultimately it will be Imran's decision. Would I be wrong to go to Haroun?

 

11 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

no. the matter is not so simple. it is consensus of muslim ummah that in matters pertaining to religion nothing new can be accepted unless there is a proof. i am not claiming anything new. but you are claiming that whether you call your imam from america, iraq, japan, pakistan, turkey, malaysia your imam shall hear you! so now you have to establish that your imam is such type of super alive! but you will fail.

we already proved they are alive from verses 3.169-172 and 2.154 unless you do not believe they were martyred in Allah's way.

 

10 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

the same reply as before. miracle and invoking is completely different thing. and nowhere in the quran it is said that people asked isa to bring dead to life and so at his request he brought life. nowhere in the quran. it is in bible. gospel accounts of new testament. and new testament is corrupted and can not be put as evidence for muslims. is corrupted bible it is said that isa was crucified and came back to his disciples after his death. but Allah says that isa was not crucified and raised alive in heaven. so no trust in bible account. Allah says in surah maida 112,

same surah, prior verse:

[Quran 5:110] When Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said: This is nothing but clear enchantment.

 

10 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

Allah says in surah maida 112,

[And remember] when the disciples said, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, can your Lord send down to us a table [spread with food] from the heaven? [Jesus] said," Fear Allah , if you should be believers."

so you can see that the disciples wanted to see a miracle and look at the language. the disciples didn't said, 'o isa, send down food for us.' rather they said him to ask his lord to send down table of food from heaven. exactly the same matter i am trying to say you.

right, the disciples wanted a miracle but they did not pray to Allah directly for it but asked Isa to pray on their behalf.

[Quran 5:114] Isa the son of Marium said: O Allah, our Lord! send i down to us food from heaven which should be to us an ever-recurring happiness, to the first of us and to the last of us, and a sign from Thee, and grant us means of subsistence, and Thou art the best of the Providers.

So if the disciples want something they ask Isa for it and if we want something, we ask the Prophet and Imams for it.

 

10 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

from the flow of language i can't find such. however your understanding may have different. that's not the problem. problem is to show this incidence as support of that we are contending and discussing.

point is simple brother. They are the rope of Allah and should be used as much as possible as a means of approaching Allah.

7 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

[72:18] And that the mosques are Allah's, therefore call not upon any one with Allah:

"Invoke not anyone along with Allah,"
implies that nothing is supposed to be associated with God Almighty in worship nor should anything besides Him be regarded as an independent source of willful acts.

---

Du'a (invoke) is the essence of worship. Thus nothing is supposed to associated with God in Du'a.

In Du'a tawassul we call upon the Ahlulbait with Allah (swt), is this not wrong According the Qur'an?

take it a step further, why is Muhammad in the azan and tashhahud then?

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take it a step further, why is Muhammad in the azan and tashhahud then?

You don't call Muhammad (saws) in azan or tashhahud, you witness him.  Mentioning name in Dua'a is fine, for example:

"O my Sustainer, I ask you in the name of Muhammad and the inmates of his house to have mercy on me." 

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1 hour ago, Dhulfikar said:

You don't call Muhammad (saws) in azan or tashhahud, you witness him.  Mentioning name in Dua'a is fine, for example:

"O my Sustainer, I ask you in the name of Muhammad and the inmates of his house to have mercy on me." 

but you said " Invoke not anyone along with Allah,". either I am confused or you are confused. I am not sure if you are stating your opinion for tawassul or against it.

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Invoke/Call (du'ah)  in Islam is an act of worship.

And your Lord says: "Call on Me; I will answer your (Prayer):
— Quran, sura 40 (Ghafir), ayah 60

— Therefore call not upon any one with Allah: Means in Du'ah we can't call anyone with Allah. Implies that nothing is supposed to be associated with God Almighty in worship. And Dua'a is Worship.

Quote

I am not sure if you are stating your opinion for tawassul or against it.

I'm asking a question toward du'ah Tawassul.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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6 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

I stand corrected then. I agree it is a completely different argument if we are discussing the most effective way versus questioning the way itself.

yes. asking dead men to pray for you is not shirk. but question is whether it is effective because of lack of evidence. but i am contending with you about directly asking to dead man without asking to pray because you are saying this is also valid and not shirk. you are saying that in your intention you believe they will pray for you. i said that not only intention but also means and process have to be correct. so my argument is when you are asking to your imam like , 'o ali, give me child'  and saying that my intention is actually seeking their dua to Allah then even if your intention is free of shirk but your speech bear the element of shirk. but if you say. 'o ali, ask Allah to give me child' then the statement correct and no question of shirk. the question is whether effective or not.

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6 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

I see those verses and quote you the following:

[Quran 3:169] And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord;
[Quran 3:170] Rejoicing in what Allah has given them out of His grace and they rejoice for the sake of those who, (being left) behind them, have not yet joined them, that they shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve.
[Quran 3:171] They rejoice on account of favor from Allah and (His) grace, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers.
[Quran 3:172] (As for) those who responded (at Ohud) to the call of Allah and the Messenger after the wound had befallen them, those among them who do good (to others) and guard (against evil)shall have a great reward.

and

[Quran 2:154] And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive.

yes, bro. i told you about that in previous post that we don't know how they are alive. these ayats does not give the idea that if you call them from any part of the world they will hear and respond. am i incorrect? if so, then why?

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6 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

same surah, prior verse:

[Quran 5:110] When Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said: This is nothing but clear enchantment.

quran 5:110 is saying that he brought dead to live by Allah's permission as in miracle. but you said that people asked isa to show miracle and so isa showed miracle. i said that nowhere in the quran it is mentioned people asked isa to perform miracle. in this ayat no mention of that.

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13 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

yes. asking dead men to pray for you is not shirk. but question is whether it is effective because of lack of evidence. but i am contending with you about directly asking to dead man without asking to pray because you are saying this is also valid and not shirk. you are saying that in your intention you believe they will pray for you. i said that not only intention but also means and process have to be correct. so my argument is when you are asking to your imam like , 'o ali, give me child'  and saying that my intention is actually seeking their dua to Allah then even if your intention is free of shirk but your speech bear the element of shirk. but if you say. 'o ali, ask Allah to give me child' then the statement correct and no question of shirk. the question is whether effective or not.

Perhaps we can agree to start a different topic under "The Most Effective Ways of making dua"

12 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

yes, bro. i told you about that in previous post that we don't know how they are alive. these ayats does not give the idea that if you call them from any part of the world they will hear and respond. am i incorrect? if so, then why?

the ayahs give indication that not only are they alive but receive sustenance (in whatever form) as well. so it would be natural to assume that they maintain their senses in some capacity as well (unknown perhaps). So you can not negate something just because you do not know about it or of it.

12 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

quran 5:110 is saying that he brought dead to live by Allah's permission as in miracle. but you said that people asked isa to show miracle and so isa showed miracle. i said that nowhere in the quran it is mentioned people asked isa to perform miracle. in this ayat no mention of that.

Brother - most of my post are referring to IZN (permission) of Allah. Whatever miracle Isa or any Prophet performed is with the permission of Allah only. 

 

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