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Calling upon the Ahlul Bayt

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7 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

When Hurr came to Imam Hussain (as) on the morning of Ashura and was repentant, the Imam said, "My Allah and I forgive you". How could Hussain speak on behalf of Allah? Did Hussain commit shirk? How could he give forgiveness on behalf of Allah?

What point in my post you are referring to?

Edited by Dhulfikar

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22 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

Because only method 2 is mentioned in authentic hadiths.  Method 1 is shirk, because the person think it is Husain who can give you something. Method 3 is the problematic one, not because Imams are alive and can hear us from their graves, but the concept of intercede need to be proven that it is still valid even when they have passed from this earth.

 

When Hurr came to Imam Hussain (as) on the morning of Ashura and was repentant, the Imam said, "My Allah and I forgive you". How could Hussain speak on behalf of Allah? Did Hussain commit shirk? How could he give forgiveness on behalf of Allah?

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If you read method 1 carefully, it states " O Hussain, please steady my heart in my exams and give me good grades" . This method says that Imam Husain (as) have power to steady your heart and gives you good grades. But In Islam, this is only shirk.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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1 hour ago, Dhulfikar said:

If you read method 1 carefully, it states " O Hussain, please steady my heart in my exams and give me good grades" . This method says that Imam Husain (as) have power to steady your heart and gives you good grades. But In Islam, this is only shirk.

even if the forethought is that Hussain can only do what Allah allows him to do?

After all, Isa brought the dead back to life and only Allah has that power but no one says Isa did shirk or the person who asked Isa to revive the dead committed shirk.

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56 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

even if the forethought is that Hussain can only do what Allah allows him to do?

After all, Isa brought the dead back to life and only Allah has that power but no one says Isa did shirk or the person who asked Isa to revive the dead committed shirk.

So you are saying that Allah (swt) gives the power to Imam, and Imam can actually trough this power give us by his will for example son, or give us sustenance?

Let me make it clear. The Method 1 does not refer to the concept of having some power by permission of Allah, rather it means that Imam have a will to grant you something  that does not depend on Allah. 

What you are referring is not a method 1. What you are referring is this:

عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن علي بن الحكم، عن مثنى الحناط عن أبي بصير قال: دخلت على أبي جعفر عليه السلام فقلت له: أنتم ورثة رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله؟ قال: نعم، قلت: رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وارث الأنبياء، علم كما علموا؟ قال لي: نعم، قلت: فأنتم تقدرون على أن تحيوا الموتى وتبرؤا الأكمه والأبرص؟ قال: نعم بإذن الله، ثم قال لي: ادن مني يا أبا محمد فدنوت منه فمسح على وجهي وعلى عيني فأبصرت الشمس والسماء والأرض والبيوت وكل شئ في البلد ثم قال لي: أتحب أن تكون هكذا ولك ما للناس وعليك ما عليهم يوم القيامة أو تعود كما كنت ولك الجنة خالصا؟ قالت: أعود كما كنت، فمسح على عيني فعدت كما كنت، قال: فحدثت ابن أبي عمير بهذا، فقال أشهد أن هذا حق كما أن النهار حق

 I (Abi Basir who is narrating the Hadith) said: "So you have decree (or power) over giving life to the dead, and curing the blind and lepers?" He (Imam Abi Ja'far Muhammad Al-Baqir (as)) said: "Yes, by the permission of Allah,"

Edited by Dhulfikar

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15 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

So you are saying that Allah (swt) gives the power to Imam, and Imam can actually trough this power give us by his will for example son, or give us sustenance?

Let me make it clear. The Method 1 does not refer to the concept of having some power by permission of Allah, rather it means that Imam have a will to grant you something  that does not depend on Allah. 

What you are referring is not a method 1. What you are referring is this:

عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن علي بن الحكم، عن مثنى الحناط عن أبي بصير قال: دخلت على أبي جعفر عليه السلام فقلت له: أنتم ورثة رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله؟ قال: نعم، قلت: رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وارث الأنبياء، علم كما علموا؟ قال لي: نعم، قلت: فأنتم تقدرون على أن تحيوا الموتى وتبرؤا الأكمه والأبرص؟ قال: نعم بإذن الله، ثم قال لي: ادن مني يا أبا محمد فدنوت منه فمسح على وجهي وعلى عيني فأبصرت الشمس والسماء والأرض والبيوت وكل شئ في البلد ثم قال لي: أتحب أن تكون هكذا ولك ما للناس وعليك ما عليهم يوم القيامة أو تعود كما كنت ولك الجنة خالصا؟ قالت: أعود كما كنت، فمسح على عيني فعدت كما كنت، قال: فحدثت ابن أبي عمير بهذا، فقال أشهد أن هذا حق كما أن النهار حق

 I (Abi Basir who is narrating the Hadith) said: "So you have decree (or power) over giving life to the dead, and curing the blind and lepers?" He (Imam Abi Ja'far Muhammad Al-Baqir (as)) said: "Yes, by the permission of Allah,"

we may be splitting hairs here. The permission (izn) of Allah is inherently implied whenever seeking the intercession (tawassul) of the AhlulBayt. No one believes the AhlulBayt have poweres beyond the Will of Allah. And in Method #1, the inherent Will of Allah is implied.

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we may be splitting hairs here. The permission (izn) of Allah is inherently implied whenever seeking the intercession (tawassul) of the AhlulBayt. No one believes the AhlulBayt have poweres beyond the Will of Allah. And in Method #1, the inherent Will of Allah is implied.

No! I have enough of repeating myself in this topic. Take care.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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3 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

No! I have enough of repeating myself in this topic. Take care.

I don't might repeating myself over and over again because truth never rest.

Assigning a sifaat-e-sabootiya and/or sifaat-e-salbiya to an Ahlulbayt is shirk; nothing else is.

These discussions get raised for no other purpose than to put doubts in the minds of the shia.

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As a layman, I have come to few conclusions. One of them is, any question raised about Ahlul Bayt[as]. First-Let’s look at it, from a perspective of their belief about the Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp].

Another one, is that it's all about the Future-i.e, Qaim Ale-Muhammad[as].

From a Political point of view, and Future worldly government point of view- The QUALITIES of  Leader they are looking to appoint.

My mind, automatically, pictures the impact of the inquiry[specially if its repeated, in any shape of forms or words] on the Last Muhammad[as].

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2 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

I don't might repeating myself over and over again because truth never rest.

Assigning a sifaat-e-sabootiya and/or sifaat-e-salbiya to an Ahlulbayt is shirk; nothing else is.

These discussions get raised for no other purpose than to put doubts in the minds of the shia.

So you think my purpose is trying to add some doubts over people mind on the issue that have been prohibited in Qur'an and Sunnah? I think it is you here who have been very confused for understanding the definition 1 that the op is trying to state. 

The Method 1, which by its definition is calling directly upon Imam for Du'a and at same time thinking that Imam himself can answer your request (The definition does not say that Imams can answer the request by permission of Allah) , Now, remember The method does not say that the person is calling Allah directly nor it says Imam then will ask Allah about it , but it state that the person is calling Imam directly instead of God and He can answer because he have the power to do so.

Then read this Quran verse which state YOU CAN'T CALL (du'ah) IMAMS DIRECTLY for asking them request, rather you can only call Allah (swt):

[72:20] Say: I only call upon my Lord, and I do not associate any one with Him.

Can you Call Allah in Dua while at same time Calling Imams with Allah?

[72:18] And that the mosques are Allah's, therefore call not upon any one with Allah:

Don't you get it why the Imams only spoke about Calling Only Allah and that Asking only from Allah in Du'ah? 

Fii Amanillah.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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One of the matters of disputes between the Wahhabis and other Islamic sects is the matter of pleading and calling the pious personalities and awliya Allah in times of hardship and difficulties.

Pleading and asking help from the Prophets and awliya Allah near their graves or otherwise is completely in vogue among the Islamic sects and they consider it neither to be shirk (polytheism) nor contradicting the Islamic foundations. On the other hand, the Wahhabis have strongly rejected such pleadings and for intimidating their opponents, they set forth some verses of Qur’an which are not having the least connection to what they claim and always raise the following verse as their slogan.

وأن المساجد لله فلا تدعوا مع الله احداً

The mosques belong to Allah; do not call anyone with Allah. (Jinn 72:18)

http://www.al-islam.org/wahhabism-ayatullah-jafar-subhani/calling-divine-personalities

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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It says: 

"Invoke not anyone along with Allah,"

implies that nothing is supposed to be associated with God Almighty in worship nor should anything besides Him be regarded as an independent source of willful acts.

Du'a (invoke) is the essence of worship. Thus nothing is supposed to associated with God in Du'a.

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34 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

One of the matters of disputes between the Wahhabis and other Islamic sects is the matter of pleading and calling the pious personalities and awliya Allah in times of hardship and difficulties.

Pleading and asking help from the Prophets and awliya Allah near their graves or otherwise is completely in vogue among the Islamic sects and they consider it neither to be shirk (polytheism) nor contradicting the Islamic foundations. On the other hand, the Wahhabis have strongly rejected such pleadings and for intimidating their opponents, they set forth some verses of Qur’an which are not having the least connection to what they claim and always raise the following verse as their slogan.

وأن المساجد لله فلا تدعوا مع الله احداً

The mosques belong to Allah; do not call anyone with Allah. (Jinn 72:18)

http://www.al-islam.org/wahhabism-ayatullah-jafar-subhani/calling-divine-personalities

It says: 

"Invoke not anyone along with Allah,"

implies that nothing is supposed to be associated with God Almighty in worship nor should anything besides Him be regarded as an independent source of willful acts.

Du'a (invoke) is the essence of worship. Thus nothing is supposed to associated with God in Du'a.

Also do we have sahih hadiths from Imams (as) where it says that we can Invoke Imams in graves for Dua'ah?

Edited by Dhulfikar

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In the past few months, weeks & days- There have been Multiple Threads- with various pretexts, Video, Different members of Ahlul Bayth[as] as Targets, wording, different sentence construction. All have same thing in common. 

Last post was not referring to a the entire Thread[ you can read it, if you like] , is referring to a specific post.[in that Thread]. 

Here it is again, Click to see which point we are at

 

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19 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

So you think my purpose is trying to add some doubts over people mind on the issue that have been prohibited in Qur'an and Sunnah? I think it is you here who have been very confused for understanding the definition 1 that the op is trying to state. 

OP merely asked a question about 3 different ways of using intercession.

If OP or you or anyone thinks that Method #1 is calling upon the AhlulBayt with the thought that they help without the izn of Allah, then it is shirk. However if you call upon them with the inherent assumption that only do what they do with the izn of Allah, there is no shirk in that. 

The best example of this can be seen in the Event of Mubahila. Allah or the Prophet could have simply cursed the liars without the need of the Ahlulbayt yet we find the verse calling them out and the Prophet acting per the instructions of Allah and bringing along Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Hussain for the Mubahila.

Could the same event have happened without them? Yes.
Did the event happen without them? No

I am yet to see anyone claim that either Allah or the Prophet committed shirk by taking the AhlulBayt with him for Mubahila and if they are good enough for the Prophet, who are you and I to argue over their status.

P.S. I wasn't referring to you but to OP

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On ‎22‎/‎04‎/‎2016 at 9:01 PM, shiaman14 said:

OP merely asked a question about 3 different ways of using intercession.

If OP or you or anyone thinks that Method #1 is calling upon the AhlulBayt with the thought that they help without the izn of Allah, then it is shirk. However if you call upon them with the inherent assumption that only do what they do with the izn of Allah, there is no shirk in that. 

The best example of this can be seen in the Event of Mubahila. Allah or the Prophet could have simply cursed the liars without the need of the Ahlulbayt yet we find the verse calling them out and the Prophet acting per the instructions of Allah and bringing along Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Hussain for the Mubahila.

Could the same event have happened without them? Yes.
Did the event happen without them? No

I am yet to see anyone claim that either Allah or the Prophet committed shirk by taking the AhlulBayt with him for Mubahila and if they are good enough for the Prophet, who are you and I to argue over their status.

P.S. I wasn't referring to you but to OP

You really don't get the difference between calling upon living people  who dwell near you and whom you meet on a regular basis,and calling upon DEAD people who lived centuries ago?

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On 4/18/2016 at 5:41 AM, LabaikYaHussein said:

Get out of here man you don't know definition of shirk what authority do you having saying things like this go learn to accept the wilayat of Amir al momineen before you come talk

So, what is the definition of shirk, my bro? even 3rd method should not be accepted as their is no solid proof though its not shirk. but without any doubt the 1st method is shirk. shirk is ascribing any power, attribute or characteristics to anyone or anything that is only for Allah.

here in method 3 you are directly asking hussain to make your heart steady and giving you good grades. if this is not shirk then what is shirk? whats the difference with it with pagan belief?

all pagans of the world believe that Allah is the highest ilah or god and he delegated his different powers to his different beloved servants making them lower gods. and also hold the belief that they attained this divine power from Allah. all pagans of the world has this type of belief whether pre-islamic arabia, greek pagans, indian hindus etc.

so dont try to beautify your pagan thought saying 'with permission of Allah'. even the pagans of arabia showed the same ground saying that their gods attained their divine power from Allah. Allah says in the quran very clearly that he will never ever grant any divinity to his servant, you should know that if read the quran.

you claim yourself shia of imams. but did imams teach such teaching? you will find the contrary in shia hadiths. in day of qiamah the imams shall disassociate themselves from you that they havent taught such teaching. whats you problem to stick to the teachings of ahlul bayt such as stated in shia hadith books?

you claimed in your previous post that 95% shia scholars support it. but as far as i know they support the method 3 where they support directly asking imams to intercede as method 3. but they never supported asking rizq, peace of mind, divine help from them.

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1 hour ago, Follower of Truth said:

So, what is the definition of shirk, my bro? even 3rd method should not be accepted as their is no solid proof though its not shirk. but without any doubt the 1st method is shirk. shirk is ascribing any power, attribute or characteristics to anyone or anything that is only for Allah.

here in method 3 you are directly asking hussain to make your heart steady and giving you good grades. if this is not shirk then what is shirk? whats the difference with it with pagan belief?

all pagans of the world believe that Allah is the highest ilah or god and he delegated his different powers to his different beloved servants making them lower gods. and also hold the belief that they attained this divine power from Allah. all pagans of the world has this type of belief whether pre-islamic arabia, greek pagans, indian hindus etc.

so dont try to beautify your pagan thought saying 'with permission of Allah'. even the pagans of arabia showed the same ground saying that their gods attained their divine power from Allah. Allah says in the quran very clearly that he will never ever grant any divinity to his servant, you should know that if read the quran.

you claim yourself shia of imams. but did imams teach such teaching? you will find the contrary in shia hadiths. in day of qiamah the imams shall disassociate themselves from you that they havent taught such teaching. whats you problem to stick to the teachings of ahlul bayt such as stated in shia hadith books?

you claimed in your previous post that 95% shia scholars support it. but as far as i know they support the method 3 where they support directly asking imams to intercede as method 3. but they never supported asking rizq, peace of mind, divine help from them.

Listen go and learn how to do proper wudu for salah then come talk thanx

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7 minutes ago, LabaikYaHussein said:

Listen go and learn how to do proper wudu for salah then come talk thanx

why are you escaping? i know you dont have any answer. you are following your whims and desire. you dont bother to follow Allah's book. however what can i do if Allah dont give you proper guidance. i have performed my responsibility.

don't act like mad, bro. we are not discussing about wudu. your wudu, your salah is invalid if you dont have tawheed. but if your aqida is right, then it is not so much an issue in trivial and small matter of fiqh or jurisprudence.. if you have ability then answer me. and i know how to do proper wudu and if you want to discuss then open another thread. i am ready to respond.

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4 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

why are you escaping? i know you dont have any answer. you are following your whims and desire. you dont bother to follow Allah's book. however what can i do if Allah dont give you proper guidance. i have performed my responsibility.

don't act like mad, bro. we are not discussing about wudu. your wudu, your salah is invalid if you dont have tawheed. but if your aqida is right, then it is not so much an issue in trivial and small matter of fiqh or jurisprudence.. if you have ability then answer me. and i know how to do proper wudu and if you want to discuss then open another thread. i am ready to respond.

Ya Ali help me is allowed by most scholars riqz is from Allah (swt) and only him there is no doubt There is no reason to argue with somebody like you no matter how many proofs are brought forth no matter how many examples may be derived you will still sit here talk about shirk so once your wudu is valid come talk salam

Edited by LabaikYaHussein

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7 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

So, what is the definition of shirk, my bro? even 3rd method should not be accepted as their is no solid proof though its not shirk. but without any doubt the 1st method is shirk. shirk is ascribing any power, attribute or characteristics to anyone or anything that is only for Allah.

here in method 3 you are directly asking hussain to make your heart steady and giving you good grades. if this is not shirk then what is shirk? whats the difference with it with pagan belief?

all pagans of the world believe that Allah is the highest ilah or god and he delegated his different powers to his different beloved servants making them lower gods. and also hold the belief that they attained this divine power from Allah. all pagans of the world has this type of belief whether pre-islamic arabia, greek pagans, indian hindus etc.

so dont try to beautify your pagan thought saying 'with permission of Allah'. even the pagans of arabia showed the same ground saying that their gods attained their divine power from Allah. Allah says in the quran very clearly that he will never ever grant any divinity to his servant, you should know that if read the quran.

you claim yourself shia of imams. but did imams teach such teaching? you will find the contrary in shia hadiths. in day of qiamah the imams shall disassociate themselves from you that they havent taught such teaching. whats you problem to stick to the teachings of ahlul bayt such as stated in shia hadith books?

you claimed in your previous post that 95% shia scholars support it. but as far as i know they support the method 3 where they support directly asking imams to intercede as method 3. but they never supported asking rizq, peace of mind, divine help from them.

Wonderfully said!

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9 hours ago, LabaikYaHussein said:

Ya Ali help me is allowed by most scholars riqz is from Allah (swt) and only him there is no doubt There is no reason to argue with somebody like you no matter how many proofs are brought forth no matter how many examples may be derived you will still sit here talk about shirk so once your wudu is valid come talk salam

bro, you are saying there are so many proofs and examples but i deny that. but you failed to give only one proof. salam to you also. can you tell how wudu is related to this topic we are discussing about?

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:salam:

When you do Tawassul (ask intercession) thru Ahlulbayt A.S, you don't believe that they got the power to help you themselves, everything happens with the will of Allah S.W.T. Like you said, He grants the intercession. We don't believe that each time we ask for intercession, it must be granted. If it does, then it is by the will of Allah S.W.T. We got numerous hadiths confirming that there's nothing wrong with Tawassul in both Sunni / Shia hadiths. The problem would be if you would believe that the Ahlulbayt A.S are independent from Allah S.W.T (Stagfurallah) or that they got their own powers to help you. Then that would be Shirk, and same goes for believing that Isa A.S had "own" powers to perform those miracles mentioned in the Quran.

 

Moreover, Tabarani, in his al-Mu`jam al-saghir, reports a hadith from ‘Uthman ibn Hanayf that a man repeatedly visited ‘Uthman ibn ‘Affan (Allah be well pleased with him) concerning something he needed, but ‘Uthman paid no attention to him or his need. 

The man met Ibn Hunayf and complained to him about the matter - this being after the death of the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) and after the caliphates of Abu Bakr and ‘Umar - so ‘Uthman ibn Hunayf, who was one of the Companions who collected hadiths and were learned in the religion of Allah said: "Go to the place of ablution and perform ablution (wudu), then come to the mosque, perform two rak’as of prayer therein, and say,

“‘O Allah, I ask You and turn to You through our Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of Mercy; O Muhammad (Ya Muhammad), I turn through you to my Lord, that He may fulfill my need,’ 

"and mention your need. Then come so that I can go with you (to the caliph ‘Uthman)."

So the man left and did as he had been told, then went to the door of ‘Uthman ibn ‘Affan (Allah be pleased with him), and the doorman came, took him by the hand, brought him to ‘Uthman ibn ‘Affan and seated him next to him on a cushion. ‘Uthman asked, "What do you need?”and the man mentioned what he wanted, and ‘Uthman accomplished it for him and then said, "I hadn’t remembered your need until just now,”adding, "Whenever you need something, just mention it.”Then the man departed, met ‘Uthman ibn Hunayf, and said to him, "May Allah reward you! He didn’t see to my need or pay any attention to me until you spoke with him.”‘Uthman ibn Hunayf replied, "By Allah, I didn’t speak to him, but I have seen a blind man come to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and grant him peace) and complain to him of the loss of his eyesight. The Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) said, ‘Can you not bear it?’ and the man replied, ‘O messenger of Allah, I do not have anyone to lead me around, and it is great hardship for me.’ The Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) told him, ‘Go to the place of ablution and perform ablution (wudu), then pray two rak’as of prayer and make these supplications.’ “Ibn Hunafy went on, "By Allah, we didn’t part company or speak long before the man returned to us as if nothing had ever been wrong with him."

This is an explicit, unequivocal text from a prophetic Companion proving the legal validity of tawassul through the dead. The account has been classed as rigorously authenticated (Sahih) by Bayhaqi, Mundhiri, and Haytami.

 

Tirmidhi relates, through his chain of narrators from ‘Uthman ibn Hunayf, that a blind man came to the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) and said, "I’ve been afflicted in my eyesight, so please pray to Allah for me.”The Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) said: "Go make ablution (wudu), perform two rak’as of prayer, and then say: 

“‘O Allah, I ask You and turn to You through my Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of Mercy; O Muhammad (Ya Muhammad), I seek your intercession with my Lord for the return of my eyesight (and in another version: "for my need , that it may be fulfilled. O Allah, grant him intercession for me").’"

The Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) added, "And if there is some need, do the same."

 

(Muhammad Hamid - a leading Hanafi scholar of this century:) As for calling upon (nida’) the righteous (when they are physically absent, as in the words "O (Ya) Muhammad”in the above hadiths), tawassul to Allah Most High through them is permissable, the supplication (du’a) being to Allah Most Glorious, and there is much evidence for its permissibility.

http://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/tawassul-resorting-intermediary

 

I'm not that knowledgeable in this matter so may Allah S.W.T forgive me if I said something wrong. 

And Allah S.W.T knows best,

Wasalam

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On 4/24/2016 at 4:56 PM, iubelum said:

You really don't get the difference between calling upon living people  who dwell near you and whom you meet on a regular basis,and calling upon DEAD people who lived centuries ago?

so then our argument is changing. According to you, the issue is not doing tawassul but doing tawassul using dead versus alive people. Is that your stance brother?

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On 4/25/2016 at 9:54 AM, Follower of Truth said:

So, what is the definition of shirk, my bro? even 3rd method should not be accepted as their is no solid proof though its not shirk. but without any doubt the 1st method is shirk. shirk is ascribing any power, attribute or characteristics to anyone or anything that is only for Allah.

here in method 3 you are directly asking hussain to make your heart steady and giving you good grades. if this is not shirk then what is shirk? whats the difference with it with pagan belief?

all pagans of the world believe that Allah is the highest ilah or god and he delegated his different powers to his different beloved servants making them lower gods. and also hold the belief that they attained this divine power from Allah. all pagans of the world has this type of belief whether pre-islamic arabia, greek pagans, indian hindus etc.

so dont try to beautify your pagan thought saying 'with permission of Allah'. even the pagans of arabia showed the same ground saying that their gods attained their divine power from Allah. Allah says in the quran very clearly that he will never ever grant any divinity to his servant, you should know that if read the quran.

you claim yourself shia of imams. but did imams teach such teaching? you will find the contrary in shia hadiths. in day of qiamah the imams shall disassociate themselves from you that they havent taught such teaching. whats you problem to stick to the teachings of ahlul bayt such as stated in shia hadith books?

you claimed in your previous post that 95% shia scholars support it. but as far as i know they support the method 3 where they support directly asking imams to intercede as method 3. but they never supported asking rizq, peace of mind, divine help from them.

Caliph Umar did tawassul using the cousin of the Prophet. UMM Aisha did tawassul using a utensil of the Prophet and another wife (Zainab I think) did tawassul using a cloak of the Prophet. Are you saying Caliph Umar, UMM Aisha and Zainab were pagans?

Did Prophet Yaqoub do shirk when he receiving healing from Prophet Yusuf's shirt? Was he a pagan?

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2 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Caliph Umar did tawassul using the cousin of the Prophet. UMM Aisha did tawassul using a utensil of the Prophet and another wife (Zainab I think) did tawassul using a cloak of the Prophet. Are you saying Caliph Umar, UMM Aisha and Zainab were pagans?

Did Prophet Yaqoub do shirk when he receiving healing from Prophet Yusuf's shirt? Was he a pagan?

i get very shocked seeing people being desperate and crazy to support own thought by confusing things with one another while the things are actually different quietly. here i said that when you directly asking something from other than Allah which can only be given by Allah then it is shirk. such as method 1 in the 1st post of this thread where one asks hussain to make his heart steady and give him good grades. subhanallah, how can one ask that from other than Allah? do imams control heart?

now as for your desperate and out of sense examples:

dont make funny comparison. umar havent asked abbas to give rain. rather he asked Allah to give rain for the sake of abbas. here umar asked Allah, not abbas for rain. if you pray like this, 'o Allah make my heart steady for the sake of hussain' then there is no objection at all. and exactly that is what umar did. if umar asked abbas to give rain then that would be shirk for sure. and exactly that is what i said.

another example of your ignorance(i am sorry, bro) is designating the incident of aisha and zainab as tawassul. it is called 'tabarruk' not 'tawassul'. tabarruk means seeking blessing of Allah from any remnant of holy prophets and pious servants of Allah. Allah will give blessing through such remnants. but tawassul is intercession which is different thing. so no question of shirk in tabarruk.

the incident of yakub is both miracle and tabarruk. miracle means something done by Allah at the hand of any prophet which is beyond the sphere of natural law. such as parting see at the hand of moses, parting the moon at the hand of muhammad pbuh. the miracle is done by Allah at the hand of prophets to prove their truthfulness among people. so again this has nothing to do with invoking other than Allah for asking for something which no one can give but Allah. ali, hussain, may Allah be pleased with them, or any other has no ability to give you anything beyond natural law. it is solely at the hand of Allah. hope i clarified. and dont be silly being confused with irrelevant things.

Edited by Follower of Truth

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On 4/22/2016 at 1:01 AM, shiaman14 said:

OP merely asked a question about 3 different ways of using intercession.

If OP or you or anyone thinks that Method #1 is calling upon the AhlulBayt with the thought that they help without the izn of Allah, then it is shirk. However if you call upon them with the inherent assumption that only do what they do with the izn of Allah, there is no shirk in that. 

The best example of this can be seen in the Event of Mubahila. Allah or the Prophet could have simply cursed the liars without the need of the Ahlulbayt yet we find the verse calling them out and the Prophet acting per the instructions of Allah and bringing along Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Hussain for the Mubahila.

Could the same event have happened without them? Yes.
Did the event happen without them? No

I am yet to see anyone claim that either Allah or the Prophet committed shirk by taking the AhlulBayt with him for Mubahila and if they are good enough for the Prophet, who are you and I to argue over their status.

P.S. I wasn't referring to you but to OP

subhanallah! the incident of mubahala is compared with calling other than Allah for supernatural help!!! i am astonished. how anyone can see similarity between the two completely different thing?

in surah ale imran the incident is narrated. when a christian delegate from nazran came to rasul sm and he debated with them and pointed out the deviance of christian belief about jesus christ but yet the members of delegate refused to accept. then at Allah's order he challenged them for mubahila. mubahila means asking Allah to curse on the party of falsehood. the ayah of ale imran is as follows:

Then whoever argues (with) you concerning it after what came to you of the knowledge then say, "Come, let us call our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and ourselves and yourselves, then let us pray humbly, and [we] invoke the curse (of) Allah on the liars.

here, Allah orders rasul sm to bring his family members and invite the christian delegate bring their family members and ask the curse of Allah on the liars. if rasul sm is liar then he would be destroyed with his family members and and if christians are liar then they would be destroyed with their family members. the both party would bring their family members to strengthen the mubahala.

how any sane and normal witted person mix this with invoking other than Allah for asking for something that no other can give except Allah?

 

 

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