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In the Name of God بسم الله

Muhajirun and Ansar Vs. Those who became muslim after the Opening of Mecca

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Talut

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Salam, 

The Muhajirun and the Ansar were considered to be the best group among the muslims. And then those who followed them, then those who followed them, etcetera, etcetera.

Their being the best group was also used as an argument of Abu Bakr and Umar at Saqifah for the selection of the Caliph. 

If so then why didn't Umar used the same criterium for appointing the governor of Syria who became a muslim only after and because the Conquest of Mecca?

And does this not make him responsible for all the fitna that because of this emerged afterwards?



 

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28 minutes ago, Talut said:

Salam, 

The Muhajirun and the Ansar were considered to be the best group among the muslims. And then those who followed them, then those who followed them, etcetera, etcetera.

Their being the best group was also used as an argument of Abu Bakr and Umar at Saqifah for the selection of the Caliph. 

If so then why didn't Umar used the same criterium for appointing the governor of Syria who became a muslim only after and because the Conquest of Mecca?

And does this not make him responsible for all the fitna that because of this emerged afterwards?



 

This was a criteria not followed even in time of prophet for office appointment

khalid b Walid , Amr b a'as held commands in time of prophet 

Generally speaking though umar in contrast to abu bakr prefered earlier converts to official positions 

 

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36 minutes ago, Talut said:

Salam, 

The Muhajirun and the Ansar were considered to be the best group among the muslims. And then those who followed them, then those who followed them, etcetera, etcetera.

Their being the best group was also used as an argument of Abu Bakr and Umar at Saqifah for the selection of the Caliph. 

If so then why didn't Umar used this same criterium for appointing the governor for Syria who became a muslim only after the Opening of Mecca?

And does this not make him responsible for all the fitna that because of this emerged afterwards?

Wa 'alaikum salam,

I want to mention a side point here. This verse was revealed very early in Makkah, long before the Hijrah (74:31):

وَمَا جَعَلْنَا أَصْحَابَ النَّارِ إِلَّا مَلَائِكَةً وَمَا جَعَلْنَا عِدَّتَهُمْ إِلَّا فِتْنَةً لِّلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لِيَسْتَيْقِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ وَيَزْدَادَ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِيمَانًا وَلَا يَرْتَابَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ وَلِيَقُولَ الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِم مَّرَضٌ وَالْكَافِرُونَ مَاذَا أَرَادَ اللَّهُ بِهَٰذَا مَثَلًا كَذَٰلِكَ يُضِلُّ اللَّهُ مَن يَشَاءُ وَيَهْدِي مَن يَشَاءُ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ جُنُودَ رَبِّكَ إِلَّا هُوَ وَمَا هِيَ إِلَّا ذِكْرَىٰ لِلْبَشَرِ

We have only appointed angels as masters of the Fire and We have only specified their number as a trial for those who are kafir; so that those who were given the Book might gain in certainty, and those who have iman might increase in their iman, and both those who were given the Book and the muminun might have no doubt; and so that those with sickness in their hearts and the kuffar might say, ´What did Allah intend by this example?´ In this way Allah misguides those He wills and guides those He wills. No one knows the legions of your Lord but Him. This is nothing but a reminder to all human beings.

This was the second Surah revealed to the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family). So, this was at the earliest period of Islam. Even at that period, there were some Muslims "with sickness in their hearts." These people were among the Muhajirun, who later migrated to al-Madinah. The Madinan surahs continue to mention them and their roles.

Another verse I want to mention is this (8:49):

إِذْ يَقُولُ الْمُنَافِقُونَ وَالَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِم مَّرَضٌ غَرَّ هَٰؤُلَاءِ دِينُهُمْ وَمَن يَتَوَكَّلْ عَلَى اللَّهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ

And when the hypocrites and those with sickness in their hearts said, ´These people have been deluded by their deen.´ But those who put their trust in Allah will find Allah to be Almighty, All-Wise.

This was revealed in the second year after Hijrah, immediately after the Battle of Badr. The Surah was obviously revealed to address the Muslim warriors who participated in the battle.

Edited by أبو فاطمة المحمدي
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23 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

This was a criteria not followed even in time of prophet for office appointment

khalid b Walid , Amr b a'as held commands in time of prophet 

Generally speaking though umar in contrast to abu bakr prefered earlier converts to official positions 

 

That's another issue.

This is about the policy of Abu Bakr and Umar during the event of Saqifah and the contradicting policy of the latter during his own period of Caliphacy. 

Furthermore, even though I despise the character and deeds of Ibn Walid, he did convert during a stage in Islam wherein it was not fully established yet while the governor of Syria converted during a point wherein Islam was fully and totally secured and the enemies of Islam (of whom the latter was one of) had no choice other than to become muslim to save their lives. 

Edited by Talut
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43 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Wa 'alaikum salam,

I want to mention a side point here. This verse was revealed very early in Makkah, long before the Hijrah (74:31):

وَمَا جَعَلْنَا أَصْحَابَ النَّارِ إِلَّا مَلَائِكَةً وَمَا جَعَلْنَا عِدَّتَهُمْ إِلَّا فِتْنَةً لِّلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لِيَسْتَيْقِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ وَيَزْدَادَ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِيمَانًا وَلَا يَرْتَابَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ وَلِيَقُولَ الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِم مَّرَضٌ وَالْكَافِرُونَ مَاذَا أَرَادَ اللَّهُ بِهَٰذَا مَثَلًا كَذَٰلِكَ يُضِلُّ اللَّهُ مَن يَشَاءُ وَيَهْدِي مَن يَشَاءُ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ جُنُودَ رَبِّكَ إِلَّا هُوَ وَمَا هِيَ إِلَّا ذِكْرَىٰ لِلْبَشَرِ

We have only appointed angels as masters of the Fire and We have only specified their number as a trial for those who are kafir; so that those who were given the Book might gain in certainty, and those who have iman might increase in their iman, and both those who were given the Book and the muminun might have no doubt; and so that those with sickness in their hearts and the kuffar might say, ´What did Allah intend by this example?´ In this way Allah misguides those He wills and guides those He wills. No one knows the legions of your Lord but Him. This is nothing but a reminder to all human beings.

This was the second Surah revealed to the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family). So, this was at the earliest period of Islam. Even at that period, there were some Muslims "with sickness in their hearts." These people were among the Muhajirun, who later migrated to al-Madinah. The Madinan surahs continue to mention them and their roles.

Another verse I want to mention is this (8:49):

إِذْ يَقُولُ الْمُنَافِقُونَ وَالَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِم مَّرَضٌ غَرَّ هَٰؤُلَاءِ دِينُهُمْ وَمَن يَتَوَكَّلْ عَلَى اللَّهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ

And when the hypocrites and those with sickness in their hearts said, ´These people have been deluded by their deen.´ But those who put their trust in Allah will find Allah to be Almighty, All-Wise.

This was revealed in the second year after Hijrah, immediately after the Battle of Badr. The Surah was obviously revealed to address the Muslim warriors who participated in the battle.

Are those with sickness in their hearts synonymous to the hypocrites and not a sub-category of the Kafirun because I see no clear distinction nor accordance. 

Indeed this is a group that I did not define yet. 

Edited by Talut
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28 minutes ago, Talut said:




 

That's another issue.

This is about the policy of Abu Bakr and Umar during the event of Saqifah and the contradicting policy of the latter during his own period of Caliphacy. 

Furthermore, even though I despise the character and deeds of Ibn Walid, he did convert during a stage in Islam wherein it was not fully established yet while the governor of Syria converted during a point wherein Islam was fully and totally secured and the enemies of Islam (of whom the latter was one of) had no choice other than to become muslim to save their lives. 

I agree that was a contradiction of what was said in the saqifa not just that but also putting muhajireen ahead of ansar which was abubakr/umar policy was wrong although latter's exploits are just as much and their merits were same

Edited by Panzerwaffe
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37 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Wa 'alaikum salam,

I want to mention a side point here. This verse was revealed very early in Makkah, long before the Hijrah (74:31):

وَمَا جَعَلْنَا أَصْحَابَ النَّارِ إِلَّا مَلَائِكَةً وَمَا جَعَلْنَا عِدَّتَهُمْ إِلَّا فِتْنَةً لِّلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لِيَسْتَيْقِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ وَيَزْدَادَ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِيمَانًا وَلَا يَرْتَابَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ وَلِيَقُولَ الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِم مَّرَضٌ وَالْكَافِرُونَ مَاذَا أَرَادَ اللَّهُ بِهَٰذَا مَثَلًا كَذَٰلِكَ يُضِلُّ اللَّهُ مَن يَشَاءُ وَيَهْدِي مَن يَشَاءُ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ جُنُودَ رَبِّكَ إِلَّا هُوَ وَمَا هِيَ إِلَّا ذِكْرَىٰ لِلْبَشَرِ

We have only appointed angels as masters of the Fire and We have only specified their number as a trial for those who are kafir; so that those who were given the Book might gain in certainty, and those who have iman might increase in their iman, and both those who were given the Book and the muminun might have no doubt; and so that those with sickness in their hearts and the kuffar might say, ´What did Allah intend by this example?´ In this way Allah misguides those He wills and guides those He wills. No one knows the legions of your Lord but Him. This is nothing but a reminder to all human beings.

This was the second Surah revealed to the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family). So, this was at the earliest period of Islam. Even at that period, there were some Muslims "with sickness in their hearts." These people were among the Muhajirun, who later migrated to al-Madinah. The Madinan surahs continue to mention them and their roles.

Another verse I want to mention is this (8:49):

إِذْ يَقُولُ الْمُنَافِقُونَ وَالَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِم مَّرَضٌ غَرَّ هَٰؤُلَاءِ دِينُهُمْ وَمَن يَتَوَكَّلْ عَلَى اللَّهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ

And when the hypocrites and those with sickness in their hearts said, ´These people have been deluded by their deen.´ But those who put their trust in Allah will find Allah to be Almighty, All-Wise.

This was revealed in the second year after Hijrah, immediately after the Battle of Badr. The Surah was obviously revealed to address the Muslim warriors who participated in the battle.

Many of those who even attended Badr can't be said with 100 % certainty were pure believers that only God knows best 

e.g QuDama b Mazun drank alcohol , hatib b abi batla helped enemy of the prophet and son of affan became a corrupt caliph 

so what's your point ?

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My beef with this logic though is that umars appointment of muawiyah does not mean umar intended muawiyah to become caliph and oppress ahlulbayt infact quite the opposite umar was fearful of latter converts rising power on later part of his life and promoted the earlier converts as much as possible to counter them e.g bara b azib Qurdah b kaab, ammar b yasir salman farsi, uthman b hunyef,  hudhayfa all held posts under umar and were favorably desposed towards Ali 

but umar cannot completely ignore the ummayyad faction either it was not until uthman Gave them monopoly that muawiyah governers hip of syria turned into an existential threat to medina govt 

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57 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Many of those who even attended Badr can't be said with 100 % certainty were pure believers that only God knows best 

e.g QuDama b Mazun drank alcohol , hatib b abi batla helped enemy of the prophet and son of affan became a corrupt caliph 

so what's your point ?

Did 'Uthman participate in the Battle of Badr?

52 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

My beef with this logic though is that umars appointment of muawiyah does not mean umar intended muawiyah to become caliph and oppress ahlulbayt infact quite the opposite umar was fearful of latter converts rising power on later part of his life and promoted the earlier converts as much as possible to counter them e.g bara b azib Qurdah b kaab, ammar b yasir salman farsi, uthman b hunyef,  hudhayfa all held posts under umar and were favorably desposed towards Ali 

but umar cannot completely ignore the ummayyad faction either it was not until uthman Gave them monopoly that muawiyah governers hip of syria turned into an existential threat to medina govt 

Perhaps, 'Umar did not consider Imam 'Ali (peace be upon him) an early convert?!

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No he didn't but I was giving an example early converts are not immune from scrutiny 

umar probably distrusted Ali given the incident when banu hashim refused to recognize abuakr for several months so he thought Ali a towering personality on his own can declare independence of a given province if Ali is the governer there.Obviously no other early convert or much less later convert had that much clout to challenge the medina govt and those that did become potential threats were promptly removed like saad b abiwaqqas and khalid b walid

Edited by Panzerwaffe
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Waleykum Salaam,

Brother Talut

Before Muawiyah there 1-2 governors of Syria and they were from the early Muhajirin i.e. Abu Ubaidah ibn Jarrah (whom the Prophet (saw) called the trustee of the Ummah). Muawiyah was the third Governor appointed when the previous governors died due to a plague.

 

 

Edited by Abul Hussain Hassani
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Narrated 'Aisha:

(the wife of the Prophet) Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) died while Abu Bakr was at a place called As-Sunah (Al-'Aliya) 'Umar stood up and said, "By Allah! Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) is not dead!" 'Umar (later on) said, "By Allah! Nothing occurred to my mind except that." He said, "Verily! Allah will resurrect him and he will cut the hands and legs of some men." Then Abu Bakr came and uncovered the face of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), kissed him and said, "Let my mother and father be sacrificed for you, (O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)), you are good in life and in death. By Allah in Whose Hands my life is, Allah will never make you taste death twice." Then he went out and said, "O oath-taker! Don't be hasty." When Abu Bakr spoke, 'Umar sat down. Abu Bakr praised and glorified Allah and said, No doubt! Whoever worshipped Muhammad, then Muhammad is dead, but whoever worshipped Allah, then Allah is Alive and shall never die." Then he recited Allah's Statement.:-- "(O Muhammad) Verily you will die, and they also will die." (39.30) He also recited:--

"Muhammad is no more than an Apostle; and indeed many Apostles have passed away, before him, If he dies Or is killed, will you then Turn back on your heels? And he who turns back On his heels, not the least Harm will he do to Allah And Allah will give reward to those Who are grateful." (3.144)

The people wept loudly, and the Ansar were assembled with Sad bin 'Ubada in the shed of Bani Saida. They said (to the emigrants). "There should be one 'Amir from us and one from you." Then Abu Bakr, Umar bin Al-Khattab and Abu 'baida bin Al-Jarrah went to them. 'Umar wanted to speak but Abu Bakr stopped him. 'Umar later on used to say, "By Allah, I intended only to say something that appealed to me and I was afraid that Abu Bakr would not speak so well. Then Abu Bakr spoke and his speech was very eloquent. He said in his statement, "We are the rulers and you (Ansars) are the ministers (i.e. advisers)," Hubab bin Al-Mundhir said, "No, by Allah we won't accept this. But there must be a ruler from us and a ruler from you." Abu Bakr said, "No, we will be the rulers and you will be the ministers, for they (i.e. Quarish) are the best family amongst the 'Arabs and of best origin. So you should elect either 'Umar or Abu 'Ubaida bin Al-Jarrah as your ruler." 'Umar said (to Abu Bakr), "No but we elect you, for you are our chief and the best amongst us and the most beloved of all of us to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)." So 'Umar took Abu Bakr's hand and gave the pledge of allegiance and the people too gave the pledge of allegiance to Abu Bakr. Someone said, "You have killed Sad bin Ubada." 'Umar said, "Allah has killed him."

حَدَّثَنَا إِسْمَاعِيلُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، حَدَّثَنَا سُلَيْمَانُ بْنُ بِلاَلٍ، عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ عُرْوَةَ، عَنْ عُرْوَةَ بْنِ الزُّبَيْرِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ ـ رضى الله عنها ـ زَوْجِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم مَاتَ وَأَبُو بَكْرٍ بِالسُّنْحِ ـ قَالَ إِسْمَاعِيلُ يَعْنِي بِالْعَالِيَةِ ـ فَقَامَ عُمَرُ يَقُولُ وَاللَّهِ مَا مَاتَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم‏.‏ قَالَتْ وَقَالَ عُمَرُ وَاللَّهِ مَا كَانَ يَقَعُ فِي نَفْسِي إِلاَّ ذَاكَ وَلَيَبْعَثَنَّهُ اللَّهُ فَلَيَقْطَعَنَّ أَيْدِيَ رِجَالٍ وَأَرْجُلَهُمْ‏.‏ فَجَاءَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ فَكَشَفَ عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقَبَّلَهُ قَالَ بِأَبِي أَنْتَ وَأُمِّي طِبْتَ حَيًّا وَمَيِّتًا، وَالَّذِي نَفْسِي بِيَدِهِ لاَ يُذِيقُكَ اللَّهُ الْمَوْتَتَيْنِ أَبَدًا‏.‏ ثُمَّ خَرَجَ فَقَالَ أَيُّهَا الْحَالِفُ عَلَى رِسْلِكَ‏.‏ فَلَمَّا تَكَلَّمَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ جَلَسَ عُمَرُ‏.‏ فَحَمِدَ اللَّهَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَأَثْنَى عَلَيْهِ وَقَالَ أَلاَ مَنْ كَانَ يَعْبُدُ مُحَمَّدًا صلى الله عليه وسلم فَإِنَّ مُحَمَّدًا قَدْ مَاتَ، وَمَنْ كَانَ يَعْبُدُ اللَّهَ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ حَىٌّ لاَ يَمُوتُ‏.‏ وَقَالَ ‏{‏إِنَّكَ مَيِّتٌ وَإِنَّهُمْ مَيِّتُونَ‏}‏ وَقَالَ ‏{‏وَمَا مُحَمَّدٌ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِنْ قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ أَفَإِنْ مَاتَ أَوْ قُتِلَ انْقَلَبْتُمْ عَلَى أَعْقَابِكُمْ وَمَنْ يَنْقَلِبْ عَلَى عَقِبَيْهِ فَلَنْ يَضُرَّ اللَّهَ شَيْئًا وَسَيَجْزِي اللَّهُ الشَّاكِرِينَ‏}‏ قَالَ فَنَشَجَ النَّاسُ يَبْكُونَ ـ قَالَ ـ وَاجْتَمَعَتِ الأَنْصَارُ إِلَى سَعْدِ بْنِ عُبَادَةَ فِي سَقِيفَةِ بَنِي سَاعِدَةَ فَقَالُوا مِنَّا أَمِيرٌ وَمِنْكُمْ أَمِيرٌ، فَذَهَبَ إِلَيْهِمْ أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرُ بْنُ الْخَطَّابِ وَأَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ بْنُ الْجَرَّاحِ، فَذَهَبَ عُمَرُ يَتَكَلَّمُ فَأَسْكَتَهُ أَبُو بَكْرٍ، وَكَانَ عُمَرُ يَقُولُ وَاللَّهِ مَا أَرَدْتُ بِذَلِكَ إِلاَّ أَنِّي قَدْ هَيَّأْتُ كَلاَمًا قَدْ أَعْجَبَنِي خَشِيتُ أَنْ لاَ يَبْلُغَهُ أَبُو بَكْرٍ، ثُمَّ تَكَلَّمَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ فَتَكَلَّمَ أَبْلَغَ النَّاسِ فَقَالَ فِي كَلاَمِهِ نَحْنُ الأُمَرَاءُ وَأَنْتُمُ الْوُزَرَاءُ‏.‏ فَقَالَ حُبَابُ بْنُ الْمُنْذِرِ لاَ وَاللَّهِ لاَ نَفْعَلُ، مِنَّا أَمِيرٌ وَمِنْكُمْ أَمِيرٌ‏.‏ فَقَالَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ لاَ، وَلَكِنَّا الأُمَرَاءُ وَأَنْتُمُ الْوُزَرَاءُ هُمْ أَوْسَطُ الْعَرَبِ دَارًا، وَأَعْرَبُهُمْ أَحْسَابًا فَبَايِعُوا عُمَرَ أَوْ أَبَا عُبَيْدَةَ‏.‏ فَقَالَ عُمَرُ بَلْ نُبَايِعُكَ أَنْتَ، فَأَنْتَ سَيِّدُنَا وَخَيْرُنَا وَأَحَبُّنَا إِلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم‏.‏ فَأَخَذَ عُمَرُ بِيَدِهِ فَبَايَعَهُ، وَبَايَعَهُ النَّاسُ، فَقَالَ قَائِلٌ قَتَلْتُمْ سَعْدَ بْنَ عُبَادَةَ‏.‏ فَقَالَ عُمَرُ قَتَلَهُ اللَّهُ‏.‏

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 3667, 3668

In-book reference : Book 62, Hadith 19

USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 5, Book 57, Hadith 19

http://sunnah.com/bukhari/62/19

*****

Mu'awiya was son of Abu Sufyan, a leader of Bani Umayya clan which was one of the clans of Quraish tribes. Mu'awiya grew up in a family known to be cunning, worldly, materialistic, and power hungry. Mu'awiya became Muslim only when Prophet Muhammad (S) triumphed over Mecca. Those who became Muslim in this manner were called Tulaqaa', (a term scornfully used for the disbelievers who became Muslims to save their lives).

Mu'awiya, his father Abu Sufyan, his mother Hind, and his brother Yazid son of Abu Sufyan were all Tulaqaa'; Mu'awiya never forgot this stigma for the rest of his life; he could never shake it from his mind, thus a feeling of malicious vengeance always existed in his heart. Mu'awiya's character and aspirations were entirely opposite to that of his sister,Umm Habiba, who was one of the wives of the Holy Prophet (S). Unlike Mu'awiya, Umm Habiba was a sincere believer and a pious person.

Omar, the second Khalifa, appointed Mu'awiya's brother, Yazid son of Abu Sufyan, as the Governor of Syria when the Muslims captured that territory from the Byzantines. Within a few years, Yazid son of Abu Sufyan died of a disease, and Omar appointed Mu'awiya in his brother's place as the Governor. Upon coming to power, Mu'awiya took advantage of the rich public treasury of Syria using it personally to buy favors and influence people...."

http://www.al-islam.org/articles/karbala-the-chain-of-events-ramzan-sabir#who-was-muawiya

"

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9 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

I agree that was a contradiction of what was said in the saqifa not just that but also putting muhajireen ahead of ansar which was abubakr/umar policy was wrong although latter's exploits are just as much and their merits were same

So you believe that just anyone should have been a candidate no matter in what stage of Islam he converted or if he belonged to the Muhajirin and Ansar or not?

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9 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

My beef with this logic though is that umars appointment of muawiyah does not mean umar intended muawiyah to become caliph and oppress ahlulbayt infact quite the opposite umar was fearful of latter converts rising power on later part of his life and promoted the earlier converts as much as possible to counter them e.g bara b azib Qurdah b kaab, ammar b yasir salman farsi, uthman b hunyef,  hudhayfa all held posts under umar and were favorably desposed towards Ali 

but umar cannot completely ignore the ummayyad faction either it was not until uthman Gave them monopoly that muawiyah governers hip of syria turned into an existential threat to medina govt 

I agree as well that it was a political move based on his own reasoning. But to favour Banu Umayya had consequences for the Banu Hashim and the Qurashi middle group as well. Everybody had to be satisfied but as always in politics in the end there is only one goal. 

I remember the statement that Prophethood and Caliphacy should not belong to one clan and I believe this was Umar's if not mistaken but if so then this statement clears a lot of the underlying goal of his policy.


 

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16 minutes ago, Talut said:

So you believe that just anyone should have been a candidate no matter in what stage of Islam he converted or if he belonged to the Muhajirin and Ansar or not?

No when did I say that ? and candidate for shaam governership ?

 

concept of sabiqa I'm a big supporter of and you are right umar ignored it in the governership of shaam but as explained earlier some issues with plague also may have played a role in his reluctance of sending early muhajireen there.And Abu sufyan family had strong trading ties there but my problem with  umar decision on this remains why did 

he not appoint an early convert ansar to the governership ?

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5 minutes ago, Talut said:

I agree as well that it was a political move based on his own reasoning. But to favour Banu Umayya had consequences for the Banu Hashim and the Qurashi middle group as well. Everybody had to be satisfied but as always in politics in the end there is only one goal. 


 

remember that banu ummayyah at that time were not neccesarily anti-banu hashim either so appointment of muawiyah is not a anti-Ali move , if anything it was more of a anti-ansar move and against those lesser tribes of yemen like Tai, khuzai, kinda who might have harbored some anti-medina resentment and the appointment of a quraishi with string ties to Mecca probably served that purpose.

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8 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

remember that banu ummayyah at that time were not neccesarily anti-banu hashim either so appointment of muawiyah is not a anti-Ali move , if anything it was more of a anti-ansar move and against those lesser tribes of yemen like Tai, khuzai, kinda who might have harbored some anti-medina resentment and the appointment of a quraishi with string ties to Mecca probably served that purpose.

In another statement you said this:

 

Quote

umar probably distrusted Ali given the incident when banu hashim refused to recognize abuakr for several months so he thought Ali a towering personality on his own can declare independence of a given province if Ali is the governer there.Obviously no other early convert or much less later convert had that much clout to challenge the medina govt and those that did become potential threats were promptly removed like saad b abiwaqqas and khalid b walid


 

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4 minutes ago, Talut said:

I misunderstood then because you said that putting Muhajirin ahead of Ansar was wrong I thought you meant that just any muslim should have been a candidate.

Yes it was wrong I think as early ansar were just as important as the early muhajireen but its abubakr/umar insistance that the muhajireen being closer to Prophet and from Quraish have more right to rule , 

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5 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Yes so what is the contradiction ?

The anti-Ali policy believing he was a threat for certain reasons and then the switch to anti-Ansar policy instead of anti-Ali policy in explaining the appointment of Mu'awiyah.

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10 minutes ago, Talut said:

The anti-Ali policy believing he was a threat for certain reasons and then the switch to anti-Ansar policy instead of anti-Ali policy in explaining the appointment of Mu'awiyah.

But Muawiyah was not a counter for Ali in any way ( esp not in 20 AH) as no one in the islamic establishment would back muaiwyah against Ali, thats why the fitna of aisha and talha was so destructive.If lets say aisha and talha were solidly behind Ali with all of mecca and ALL OF iraq then even the much powerful mauwiayh of 36 AH ( not the mauwiayh of umar's time) would have meekly surrendered his position as he stood no chance.

The only way to counter Ali for umar was not to let his influence spread too much in any one area of the empire and that already was apparent in yemen and iraq ,  thats why it was essential to keep Ali in medina 

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10 hours ago, Talut said:



If so then why didn't Umar used the same criterium for appointing the governor of Syria who became a muslim only after and because the Conquest of Mecca?

And does this not make him responsible for all the fitna that because of this emerged afterwards?

 

"

"The alliance of Abu Bakr and Umar with the family of Abu Sufyan and the Umayyads against the family of Muhammad and the Banu Hashim was permanent and unbreakable.

As the spiritual heirs and the “instruments” of the policy of Abu Bakr and Umar, the Umayyads served a period of “apprenticeship” at the end of which they were ready to claim and to receive their reward. Their reward was the government of Saqifa itself!

This is the story of the rise of the Umayyads to power. It was in this manner that in the words of Gibbon, “the champions of idolatry became the supreme heads of his (Mohammed's) religion and empire,” one of history's most consummate touches of irony."

http://www.al-islam.org/restatement-history-islam-and-muslims-sayyid-ali-ashgar-razwy/principal-events-caliphate-abu-bakr#aims-wars-abu-bakr-and-umar

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And does this not make him responsible for all the fitna that because of this emerged afterwards?

You know ziyad b abih rose to political prominance as a supporter of Ali esp his role as governer so now should we blame Ali for all the evil things ziyad and his son did AFTER Ali's death ?

 

hindsight is always 20/20 

 

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Narrated 'Aisha:

(the wife of the Prophet) Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) died while Abu Bakr was at a place called As-Sunah (Al-'Aliya) 'Umar stood up and said, "By Allah! Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) is not dead!" 'Umar (later on) said, "By Allah! Nothing occurred to my mind except that." He said, "Verily! Allah will resurrect him and he will cut the hands and legs of some men." Then Abu Bakr came and uncovered the face of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), kissed him and said, "Let my mother and father be sacrificed for you, (O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)), you are good in life and in death. By Allah in Whose Hands my life is, Allah will never make you taste death twice." Then he went out and said, "O oath-taker! Don't be hasty." When Abu Bakr spoke, 'Umar sat down. Abu Bakr praised and glorified Allah and said, No doubt! Whoever worshipped Muhammad, then Muhammad is dead, but whoever worshipped Allah, then Allah is Alive and shall never die." Then he recited Allah's Statement.:-- "(O Muhammad) Verily you will die, and they also will die." (39.30) He also recited:--

"Muhammad is no more than an Apostle; and indeed many Apostles have passed away, before him, If he dies Or is killed, will you then Turn back on your heels? And he who turns back On his heels, not the least Harm will he do to Allah And Allah will give reward to those Who are grateful." (3.144)

The people wept loudly, and the Ansar were assembled with Sad bin 'Ubada in the shed of Bani Saida. They said (to the emigrants). "There should be one 'Amir from us and one from you." Then Abu Bakr, Umar bin Al-Khattab and Abu 'baida bin Al-Jarrah went to them. 'Umar wanted to speak but Abu Bakr stopped him. 'Umar later on used to say, "By Allah, I intended only to say something that appealed to me and I was afraid that Abu Bakr would not speak so well. Then Abu Bakr spoke and his speech was very eloquent. He said in his statement, "We are the rulers and you (Ansars) are the ministers (i.e. advisers)," Hubab bin Al-Mundhir said, "No, by Allah we won't accept this. But there must be a ruler from us and a ruler from you." Abu Bakr said, "No, we will be the rulers and you will be the ministers, for they (i.e. Quarish) are the best family amongst the 'Arabs and of best origin. So you should elect either 'Umar or Abu 'Ubaida bin Al-Jarrah as your ruler." 'Umar said (to Abu Bakr), "No but we elect you, for you are our chief and the best amongst us and the most beloved of all of us to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)." So 'Umar took Abu Bakr's hand and gave the pledge of allegiance and the people too gave the pledge of allegiance to Abu Bakr. Someone said, "You have killed Sad bin Ubada." 'Umar said, "Allah has killed him."

حَدَّثَنَا إِسْمَاعِيلُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، حَدَّثَنَا سُلَيْمَانُ بْنُ بِلاَلٍ، عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ عُرْوَةَ، عَنْ عُرْوَةَ بْنِ الزُّبَيْرِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ ـ رضى الله عنها ـ زَوْجِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم مَاتَ وَأَبُو بَكْرٍ بِالسُّنْحِ ـ قَالَ إِسْمَاعِيلُ يَعْنِي بِالْعَالِيَةِ ـ فَقَامَ عُمَرُ يَقُولُ وَاللَّهِ مَا مَاتَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم‏.‏ قَالَتْ وَقَالَ عُمَرُ وَاللَّهِ مَا كَانَ يَقَعُ فِي نَفْسِي إِلاَّ ذَاكَ وَلَيَبْعَثَنَّهُ اللَّهُ فَلَيَقْطَعَنَّ أَيْدِيَ رِجَالٍ وَأَرْجُلَهُمْ‏.‏ فَجَاءَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ فَكَشَفَ عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقَبَّلَهُ قَالَ بِأَبِي أَنْتَ وَأُمِّي طِبْتَ حَيًّا وَمَيِّتًا، وَالَّذِي نَفْسِي بِيَدِهِ لاَ يُذِيقُكَ اللَّهُ الْمَوْتَتَيْنِ أَبَدًا‏.‏ ثُمَّ خَرَجَ فَقَالَ أَيُّهَا الْحَالِفُ عَلَى رِسْلِكَ‏.‏ فَلَمَّا تَكَلَّمَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ جَلَسَ عُمَرُ‏.‏ فَحَمِدَ اللَّهَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَأَثْنَى عَلَيْهِ وَقَالَ أَلاَ مَنْ كَانَ يَعْبُدُ مُحَمَّدًا صلى الله عليه وسلم فَإِنَّ مُحَمَّدًا قَدْ مَاتَ، وَمَنْ كَانَ يَعْبُدُ اللَّهَ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ حَىٌّ لاَ يَمُوتُ‏.‏ وَقَالَ ‏{‏إِنَّكَ مَيِّتٌ وَإِنَّهُمْ مَيِّتُونَ‏}‏ وَقَالَ ‏{‏وَمَا مُحَمَّدٌ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِنْ قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ أَفَإِنْ مَاتَ أَوْ قُتِلَ انْقَلَبْتُمْ عَلَى أَعْقَابِكُمْ وَمَنْ يَنْقَلِبْ عَلَى عَقِبَيْهِ فَلَنْ يَضُرَّ اللَّهَ شَيْئًا وَسَيَجْزِي اللَّهُ الشَّاكِرِينَ‏}‏ قَالَ فَنَشَجَ النَّاسُ يَبْكُونَ ـ قَالَ ـ وَاجْتَمَعَتِ الأَنْصَارُ إِلَى سَعْدِ بْنِ عُبَادَةَ فِي سَقِيفَةِ بَنِي سَاعِدَةَ فَقَالُوا مِنَّا أَمِيرٌ وَمِنْكُمْ أَمِيرٌ، فَذَهَبَ إِلَيْهِمْ أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرُ بْنُ الْخَطَّابِ وَأَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ بْنُ الْجَرَّاحِ، فَذَهَبَ عُمَرُ يَتَكَلَّمُ فَأَسْكَتَهُ أَبُو بَكْرٍ، وَكَانَ عُمَرُ يَقُولُ وَاللَّهِ مَا أَرَدْتُ بِذَلِكَ إِلاَّ أَنِّي قَدْ هَيَّأْتُ كَلاَمًا قَدْ أَعْجَبَنِي خَشِيتُ أَنْ لاَ يَبْلُغَهُ أَبُو بَكْرٍ، ثُمَّ تَكَلَّمَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ فَتَكَلَّمَ أَبْلَغَ النَّاسِ فَقَالَ فِي كَلاَمِهِ نَحْنُ الأُمَرَاءُ وَأَنْتُمُ الْوُزَرَاءُ‏.‏ فَقَالَ حُبَابُ بْنُ الْمُنْذِرِ لاَ وَاللَّهِ لاَ نَفْعَلُ، مِنَّا أَمِيرٌ وَمِنْكُمْ أَمِيرٌ‏.‏ فَقَالَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ لاَ، وَلَكِنَّا الأُمَرَاءُ وَأَنْتُمُ الْوُزَرَاءُ هُمْ أَوْسَطُ الْعَرَبِ دَارًا، وَأَعْرَبُهُمْ أَحْسَابًا فَبَايِعُوا عُمَرَ أَوْ أَبَا عُبَيْدَةَ‏.‏ فَقَالَ عُمَرُ بَلْ نُبَايِعُكَ أَنْتَ، فَأَنْتَ سَيِّدُنَا وَخَيْرُنَا وَأَحَبُّنَا إِلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم‏.‏ فَأَخَذَ عُمَرُ بِيَدِهِ فَبَايَعَهُ، وَبَايَعَهُ النَّاسُ، فَقَالَ قَائِلٌ قَتَلْتُمْ سَعْدَ بْنَ عُبَادَةَ‏.‏ فَقَالَ عُمَرُ قَتَلَهُ اللَّهُ‏.‏

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 3667, 3668

In-book reference : Book 62, Hadith 19

USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 5, Book 57, Hadith 19

http://sunnah.com/bukhari/62/19

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And add to this the hadith of 12 caliphs from quraish and you get the big picture which is leadership of muslims was always considered a birth right by quraish right from abu bakr coup against ansar to the sharif of MeCCA revolt against ottomans 

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Unless The Leader is Appointed by Allah[awj]'s Command.

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ {124}

[Pickthal 2:124] And (remember) when his Lord tried Abraham with (His) commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: Lo! I have appointed thee a leader for mankind. (Abraham) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said: My covenant includeth not wrong-doers.

Zalim (unjust) in the view of the Quran, is he who worships, or has worshipped a ghayrallah. Shirk (idolatry) in the words of the Quran is the greatest zulm or injustice. Therefore he who, at any time in his life, has been a mushrik (idolater) can never be an Imam. Besides the Holy Prophet there was no one, among his companions, who had not been an idol-worshipper, save his cousin, Ali ibna abi Talib, who alone could be rightfully chosen by providence "to receive the covenant of imamat". The Holy Prophet, therefore, under the command of Allah transferred the imamat to Ali, and after Ali to the eleven Imams in the progeny of Muhammad and Ali. In this way the covenant of Allah with Ibrahim was fulfilled, and in the progeny of Isma-il the twelve princes, the twelve holy Imams, were born.

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