How to prove that since the universe is contingent, it must be dependant on god, even if it had existed for an infinite period of time

[Qasim_Husayn]

Salam how can we prove that even if the universe was eternal, it still is dependant on the existence of god

 

@Ibn Sina @Abu Ja'afar@IbnSina

 

[Muslim2010]

The following searched from the internet may be helpful for evidence:

Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.³ Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.⁴

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has wide margin between its boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that various chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.⁵

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.⁶

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.⁷ Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.

The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously.⁸ Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter.

Does God exist? The universe operates by uniform laws of nature. Why does it?

Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day after day: gravity remains consistent, a hot cup of coffee left on a counter will get cold, the earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us.

How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable?

"The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence."¹¹

Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle."¹²

Does God exist? The DNA code informs, programs a cell's behavior.

All instruction, all teaching, all training comes with intent. Someone who writes an instruction manual does so with purpose. Did you know that in every cell of our bodies there exists a very detailed instruction code, much like a miniature computer program? As you may know, a computer program is made up of ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very similar. It's made up of four chemicals that scientists abbreviate as A, T, G, and C. These are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. There are three billion of these letters in every human cell!!

Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell. DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.¹³

Why is this so amazing? One has to ask....how did this information program wind up in each human cell? These are not just chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct, that code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop.

Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.

Wassalam

[Abu-Jafar Herz]

If something is eternal then it cannot be contingent.

[Enlightened Follower]

5 hours ago, Qasim_Husayn said:

Salam how can we prove that even if the universe was eternal, it still is dependant on the existence of god

 

@Ibn Sina @Abu Ja'afar@IbnSina

 

Second Law of Thermodynamics even if an infinite amount of successive energy reactions initiated existence they eventually would have lost all their energy i.e. had no way of sustaining themselves and then ceased to exist.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Enlightened Follower

[StrugglingForTheLight]

Go for the two birds in one stone. If you can prove Tawheed, you prove a Creator. However if you prove a Creator, you don't necessarily prove Tawheed.  So look for proof of Tawheed.

 

 

[Qasim_Husayn]

7 hours ago, skamran110 said:

The following searched from the internet may be helpful for evidence:

Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.³ Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.⁴

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has wide margin between its boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that various chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.⁵

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.⁶

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.⁷ Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.

The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously.⁸ Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter.

Does God exist? The universe operates by uniform laws of nature. Why does it?

Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day after day: gravity remains consistent, a hot cup of coffee left on a counter will get cold, the earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us.

How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable?

"The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence."¹¹

Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle."¹²

Does God exist? The DNA code informs, programs a cell's behavior.

All instruction, all teaching, all training comes with intent. Someone who writes an instruction manual does so with purpose. Did you know that in every cell of our bodies there exists a very detailed instruction code, much like a miniature computer program? As you may know, a computer program is made up of ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very similar. It's made up of four chemicals that scientists abbreviate as A, T, G, and C. These are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. There are three billion of these letters in every human cell!!

Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell. DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.¹³

Why is this so amazing? One has to ask....how did this information program wind up in each human cell? These are not just chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct, that code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop.

Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.

Wassalam

The problem is intelligent design can be easily answerd by the multiverse theory.

In the multiverse theory there are an infinite number of universe with our universe being one out of the infinite. If there is an infintie possiblities of life, then there is bound to be one that is like ours

Think about it this way

I'm sure you've heard the whole Infinite Monkeys writing Shakespeare theory before, right?  It goes something like this.  If you had an infinite number of monkeys, and an infinite number of typewriters, and they were all banging around on the keys, somewhere in that INFINITE mess, a monkey would hammer out the script to Hamlet.  You might not believe it.... you might think that is a trillion to one or quadrillion to one chance of something like that happening.... that something complex and coherent could be randomly generated spontaneously.

However... that's how life began here. 

A big cosmic soup.  Just the right environment, just the right catalysts, just the right ingredients, and life was produced.  Then, over millions upon millions of years, life evolved and changed.  What could survive, did.  What couldn't survive, died off.  There is overly abundant proof of the species that couldn't survive and went extinct.

The fact that we are here isn't proof of some intelligent design.

The fact that we are here is proof that there are an infinite number of planets and stars out there, and we are just a script for Hamlet... and evolution takes a long time to work up from a simple protein chain.

[Qasim_Husayn]

5 hours ago, Abu-Jafar Herz said:

If something is eternal then it cannot be contingent.

Jazakallah but there is new theorem called the quantum eternity theorem, this theorem proves that our universe always existed, so how could we prove that even if the universe existed eternally it still requires a cause

[StrugglingForTheLight]

Do you believe something can emerge from nothing? (not saying the universe must have came from nothing if you don't believe in God or that it's not eternal) And answer simply "why not?"

[Qasim_Husayn]

43 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Do you believe something can emerge from nothing? (not saying the universe must have came from nothing if you don't believe in God or that it's not eternal) And answer simply "why not?"

Well yes 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_fluctuation

Quantum fluctuations can cause something to come from nothing

[StrugglingForTheLight]

So let me get this straight. You believe non-existence could of been what was, then existence appeared out of it? You think this maybe for all you know rationally possible?

[Quisant]

7 hours ago, Qasim_Husayn said:

Well yes 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_fluctuation

Quantum fluctuations can cause something to come from nothing

And what causes quantum fluctuations? 

Quantum physics melts my brain.

The legendary physicist Richard Feynman said: “I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics.”

'Quantum' science is one of the major revolutions in 20th century Physics, there are a number of competing models and hypotheses theorising on the behaviour of particles. 

However this still requires a knowledge of the initial state, it does not explain it.

So, we don't know is the honest answer. 

wslm.
 

[Qasim_Husayn]

@StrugglingForTheLight Ok think about it this way

Let 0 represent nothingness

Now 0 can be written as 3 + -3

Nothingness can and will switch from nothingness into 3 and -3.

The 3 siginifies matter such as electrons

The -3 signifies antimatter which are things positrons 

[Qasim_Husayn]

@Enlightened Follower

But the cyclical model explains a possibility of the universe existing for infinite amount of time and not suffering heat death.(i.e burning up or using up all of its energy

[Enlightened Follower]

27 minutes ago, Qasim_Husayn said:

@Enlightened Follower

But the cyclical model explains a possibility of the universe existing for infinite amount of time and not suffering heat death.(i.e burning up or using up all of its energy

That is impossible as what is sustaining that cyclical direction? The sustaining energy behind that would also be lost and then bam no more universe or existence. The cyclical energy model is just a fancy means of skipping over the central issue.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Enlightened Follower

[Enlightened Follower]

31 minutes ago, Qasim_Husayn said:

@StrugglingForTheLight Ok think about it this way

Let 0 represent nothingness

Now 0 can be written as 3 + -3

Nothingness can and will switch from nothingness into 3 and -3.

The 3 siginifies matter such as electrons

The -3 signifies antimatter which are things positrons 

Who gave that nothingness meaning?

[Abu-Jafar Herz]

Quantum fluctuations isn't "something from nothing." Upper level physicists do not say this either, the principle of sufficient reason nor is the law of conservation of energy violated here. Quantum fluctuations are simply fluctuations in energy levels in an almost completely closed system. These fluctuations are residual backround matter coming together and breaking apart, or something similar. No one believes nothingness can source matter popping into being, to suggest that we would run into some major problems that can be demonstrated. For example, if something is coming from nothing then why is it consistently in the form of quantum atoms, why not larger matter? How can "nothing" specify a consistent size? The biggest problem of course is the violations of two types of causes, material and the principle of sufficient reason. Material cause= from nothing, nothing comes. Principe of sufficient reason= Everything has a reason or cause.

[Enlightened Follower]

12 hours ago, Quisant said:

And what causes quantum fluctuations? 

Quantum physics melts my brain.

The legendary physicist Richard Feynman said: “I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics.”

'Quantum' science is one of the major revolutions in 20th century Physics, there are a number of competing models and hypotheses theorising on the behaviour of particles. 

However this still requires a knowledge of the initial state, it does not explain it.

So, we don't know is the honest answer. 

wslm.
 

Regardless of the initial state the cause for that cause for that cause all the way back would all require concerted energy steps.

[Abu-Jafar Herz]

To answer your question in your first post, I think you want to know how we can prove that universe had a beginning without using the infinite regress argument. This can be done easily, we just use the argument from contingency since all existence is contingent in and of itself since there is nothing about matter or even existence that makes it necessary, it could of all not been here.

[Enlightened Follower]

20 hours ago, Qasim_Husayn said:

Well yes 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_fluctuation

Quantum fluctuations can cause something to come from nothing

Quantum fluctuations are random and not organized in any pattern we can really assert.

Also nothing can never make anything as nothing means no existence by it's implied meaning. Additionally, even quantum fluctuations are backed by energy so they are technically not "nothing."

[Enlightened Follower]

5 minutes ago, Abu-Jafar Herz said:

To answer your question in your first post, I think you want to know how we can prove that universe had a beginning without using the infinite regress argument. This can be done easily, we just use the argument from contingency since all existence is contingent in and of itself since there is nothing about matter or even existence that makes it necessary, it could of all not been here.

Also information in organized and quantified forms requires an origin from previous information, according to information theory random asserted pieces of information cannot ever put themselves together.

[Abu-Jafar Herz]

4 minutes ago, Enlightened Follower said:

Quantum fluctuations are random and not organized in any pattern we can really assert.

Also nothing can never make anything as nothing means no existence by it's implied meaning. Additionally, even quantum fluctuations are backed by energy so they are technically not "nothing."

Yes this is correct. To suggest that something can be sourced from nothing to akin to saying 2+4=482, its just illogical. From nothing, nothing comes. Everything must have a material cause, when God brought matter into existence he had no need for a material cause but only a sufficient one, i.e. he used his infinite power to create something by nothing.

[Enlightened Follower]

3 minutes ago, Abu-Jafar Herz said:

Yes this is correct. To suggest that something can be sourced from nothing to akin to saying 2+4=482, its just illogical. From nothing, nothing comes. Everything must have a material cause, when God brought matter into existence he had no need for a material cause but only a sufficient one, i.e. he used his infinite power to create something by nothing.

One misconception brought on by a Western mind set is God is bound by time and space(finite concepts), thinkers in the Islamic world never made this claim this idea died out with the Mutazila. As it was reconciled that God is perfect therefore, not reliant on time and space, transcending them and having created those conceptions to begin with.

[Qasim_Husayn]

1 hour ago, Enlightened Follower said:

That is impossible as what is sustaining that cyclical direction? The sustaining energy behind that would also be lost and then bam no more universe or existence. The cyclical energy model is just a fancy means of skipping over the central issue.

After a certain rate of expansion the force of gravity becomes greater than the rate of expansion this causes the universe to collapses on itself back into a point of singularity all over again

[Qasim_Husayn]

1 hour ago, Abu-Jafar Herz said:

Quantum fluctuations isn't "something from nothing." Upper level physicists do not say this either, the principle of sufficient reason nor is the law of conservation of energy violated here. Quantum fluctuations are simply fluctuations in energy levels in an almost completely closed system. These fluctuations are residual backround matter coming together and breaking apart, or something similar. No one believes nothingness can source matter popping into being, to suggest that we would run into some major problems that can be demonstrated. For example, if something is coming from nothing then why is it consistently in the form of quantum atoms, why not larger matter? How can "nothing" specify a consistent size? The biggest problem of course is the violations of two types of causes, material and the principle of sufficient reason. Material cause= from nothing, nothing comes. Principe of sufficient reason= Everything has a reason or cause.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_fluctuation

In quantum physics, a quantum fluctuation (or quantum vacuum fluctuation or vacuum fluctuation) is the temporary change in the amount of energy in a point inspace,^[1] as explained in Werner Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.

According to one formulation of the principle, energy and time can be related by the relation^[2]

That means that conservation of energy can appear to be violated, but only for small times. This allows the creation of particle-antiparticle pairs of virtual particles. The effects of these particles are measurable, for example, in the effective charge of the electron, different from its "naked" charge.

[Abu-Jafar Herz]

26 minutes ago, Qasim_Husayn said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_fluctuation

In quantum physics, a quantum fluctuation (or quantum vacuum fluctuation or vacuum fluctuation) is the temporary change in the amount of energy in a point inspace,^[1] as explained in Werner Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.

According to one formulation of the principle, energy and time can be related by the relation^[2]

That means that conservation of energy can appear to be violated, but only for small times. This allows the creation of particle-antiparticle pairs of virtual particles. The effects of these particles are measurable, for example, in the effective charge of the electron, different from its "naked" charge.

It is not violated at all. Also notice that the wiki link you gave me says that it only appears to be violated, not that it actually is. There is no such thing as matter coming into existence from nothing, this is simply background residual matter coming together in a point and space and then dispersing.

[Qasim_Husayn]

18 minutes ago, Abu-Jafar Herz said:

It is not violated at all. Also notice that the wiki link you gave me says that it only appears to be violated, not that it actually is. There is no such thing as matter coming into existence from nothing, this is simply background residual matter coming together in a point and space and then dispersing.

Can you share with us a simple article on understanding what quantum fluctuations are 

 

In quantum physics, a quantum fluctuation (or quantum vacuum fluctuation or vacuum fluctuation) is the temporary change in the amount of energy in a point inspace,^[1] as explained in Werner Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.

According to one formulation of the principle, energy and time can be related by the relation^[2]

That means that conservation of energy can appear to be violated, but only for small times. This allows the creation of particle-antiparticle pairs of virtual particles. The effects of these particles are measurable, for example, in the effective charge of the electron, different from its "naked" charge.

[Muhammed Ali]

OP, PM me.

[Enlightened Follower]

6 hours ago, Qasim_Husayn said:

After a certain rate of expansion the force of gravity becomes greater than the rate of expansion this causes the universe to collapses on itself back into a point of singularity all over again

What causes the rate of gravity to exist in the first place? Also energy keeps on becoming less usable as it has been used over and over akin to when a battery runs out of energy there is no way to sustain the battery itself.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Enlightened Follower

[Enlightened Follower]

6 hours ago, Qasim_Husayn said:

Can you share with us a simple article on understanding what quantum fluctuations are 

 

In quantum physics, a quantum fluctuation (or quantum vacuum fluctuation or vacuum fluctuation) is the temporary change in the amount of energy in a point inspace,^[1] as explained in Werner Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.

According to one formulation of the principle, energy and time can be related by the relation^[2]

That means that conservation of energy can appear to be violated, but only for small times. This allows the creation of particle-antiparticle pairs of virtual particles. The effects of these particles are measurable, for example, in the effective charge of the electron, different from its "naked" charge.

This surely implies the existence of another universe in order to use that energy,  it has to have a source it still does not address the key question to start with.

[Enlightened Follower]

On 4/4/2016 at 9:36 PM, Qasim_Husayn said:

Well yes 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_fluctuation

Quantum fluctuations can cause something to come from nothing

Quantum fluctuations are not things coming out of nothing they are akin to vibrations within molecules, only this on a much smaller scale and it includes the whole universe, I really don't see the premises of your claim at.

[Enlightened Follower]

7 hours ago, Qasim_Husayn said:

That means that conservation of energy can appear to be violated, but only for small times. This allows the creation of particle-antiparticle pairs of virtual particles. The effects of these particles are measurable, for example, in the effective charge of the electron, different from its "naked" charge.

I think you have been reading too much Laurence Krauss "A Universe from Nothing" as he makes this absurd claim in his book. This theory has many noted problems for starters, and more critically, quantum fluctuations are only known to occur within space that already exists. How would the first universe-generating fluctuation occur without space, and how could that space be there without a universe already in place? It appears that in order to make a universe this way, another universe must already exist. In that case, how did the first universe begin—or the one before that? The assertion that the universe came from nothing assumes pre-existence of the very laws of physics that can supposedly generate universes. 

 Ignoring the necessity of pre-existing space for quantum fluctuations to occur, ignoring logical problems in obtaining laws of physics from nothing, and ignoring the nature of God, all in the name of justifying the idea that the universe could come from nothing is preposterous.

 

[Enlightened Follower]

On 4/3/2016 at 11:19 AM, Qasim_Husayn said:

Salam how can we prove that even if the universe was eternal, it still is dependant on the existence of god

 

@Ibn Sina @Abu Ja'afar@IbnSina

 

The argument hinges on the claim that the total energy of the universe is exactly zero, and this claim is based squarely on assumptions. Stephen Hawking writes:

"The idea of inflation could also explain why there is so much matter in the universe….The answer is that, in quantum theory, particles can be created out of energy in the form of particle/antiparticle pairs. But that just raises the question of where the energy came from. The answer is that the total energy of the universe is exactly zero."

Despite Hawking’s assertion, no human being can possibly know the precise energy content of the entire universe. In order to verify the claim that the total energy content of the universe is exactly zero, one would have to account for all the forms of energy in the universe (gravitational potential energy, the relativistic energies of all particles, etc.), add them together, and then verify that the sum really is exactly zero.

[Enlightened Follower]

6 hours ago, Qasim_Husayn said:

quantum fluctuations

When virtual particles momentarily appear within a vacuum, they are appearing in a space that already exists. Because space itself is part of our universe, the spontaneous creation of a universe requires space itself to somehow pop into existence.

[Qasim_Husayn]

Let there be Object 1

1 is caused by 2, which is caused by 3 which is caused......... (ad infinitum)

Now lets reverse this cycle and  try to reach from infinity  to object 1

Object infinity causes object (inifnity - 1), object (inifnity - 1) causes (infinity-2)........

The problem is we will never reach object 1 as there is an infinite number of causes before reaching the number 1 (infinite regression). Therefore there must be one thing which was not caused by anything before it or after it . Something which has no predecessor, and ignited all the causes. We call that thing "God"
 

5 hours ago, Enlightened Follower said:

I think you have been reading too much Laurence Krauss "A Universe from Nothing" as he makes this absurd claim in his book. This theory has many noted problems for starters, and more critically, quantum fluctuations are only known to occur within space that already exists. How would the first universe-generating fluctuation occur without space, and how could that space be there without a universe already in place? It appears that in order to make a universe this way, another universe must already exist. In that case, how did the first universe begin—or the one before that? The assertion that the universe came from nothing assumes pre-existence of the very laws of physics that can supposedly generate universes. 

 Ignoring the necessity of pre-existing space for quantum fluctuations to occur, ignoring logical problems in obtaining laws of physics from nothing, and ignoring the nature of God, all in the name of justifying the idea that the universe could come from nothing is preposterous.

 

So the universe came from a quantum vaccum and the quantum vaccum which is caused by vibrations of a hidden wave which was caused by ......................... eventully leading us to an Uncaused Cause AKA God

[Quisant]

2 hours ago, Qasim_Husayn said:

Let there be Object 1

1 is caused by 2, which is caused by 3 which is caused......... (ad infinitum)

Now lets reverse this cycle and  try to reach from infinity  to object 1

Object infinity causes object (inifnity - 1), object (inifnity - 1) causes (infinity-2)........

The problem is we will never reach object 1 as there is an infinite number of causes before reaching the number 1 (infinite regression). Therefore there must be one thing which was not caused by anything before it or after it . 

 

The set of past events is not obtained by successive addition from zero. It has always been infinite; and there is no obstacle to adding additional elements to an infinite set.

The mistake you seem to be making here is treating a beginningless past as if it had a beginning an infinity of time ago. But that isn't the case: it has no beginning, no first object. 

2 hours ago, Qasim_Husayn said:

So the universe came from a quantum vaccum and the quantum vaccum which is caused by vibrations of a hidden wave which was caused by ......................... eventully leading us to an Uncaused Cause AKA God

Even if there were a first unknown cause.... why would you call it God?