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In the Name of God بسم الله

As an Alevi why do shia curse omer etc and knife theirselves

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Why do shia curse omer, Osman etc

We don't know exactly know what happened and they are also the companions of Hz Muhammed saw

Also during kerbela, why do they knife theirselves?

We in Alevi say "Eline, Beline, Diline Sahip ol" - Haci Bektash Veli 

No stealing, cursing or haram

 

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Salaamon 'Alaykom.

Thank you for your question.

First and foremost, it does not matter which sect or religion you belong to; it is Humanity to Condemn the Wrong and Favour the Right, Regardless of weather you are a Sunni, a Shia'h, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian or any other religion; When someone goes against the laws of Humanity, they are condemed.

In this case, According to the Authentic Sunni and Shia'h books (references below), it is believed and narrated in History that although some people were companions of the Holy Prophet during his lifetime, however, as soon as the prophet died, those so-called companions did not adhere to what the prophet had advised them, and more to that, neither did they attend the prophet;s funeral, and nor did they part-take in the prophet's burrial. More to that, they tortured the only daughter of the Holy Prophet, Lady Fatimatoz Zahraa, and even set her house on fire; She was pregnant and she miscarried, they (the same companions, struck her face, whipped her, threw the door on her, and dragged the holy prophet's son in law, Aly ibn. AbiTaleb, in chains to pledge alligiance to Aba Bakr (Note that Aly ibn. AbiTaleb who was appointed as the rightful successor by the prophet in his lifetime, when the prophet breathed his last, the companions, as mentioned earlier, were not at the funeral, but they gathered at a meeting place called Saqiifah to overthrow Aly, while 'Aly was burrying his cousin, The Holy Prophet of Allah. )
 

Moreover, they denied the right of the garden of Fadak to Lady Fatimatoz Zahraa... This garden was part of the war booty of Khaybar that the Prophet was gifted by the Jews, and The Prophet presented it to his only daughter in his lifetime. But after the death of the Holy Prophet, along with usurping the right to caliphate, the so-called companions of the prophet also usurped the garden of Fadak...

Now, you tell me, WAS THAT THE RIGHT THING TO DO? WERE 'ALY AND FATIMAH, THE BLOOD RELATIONS OF THE PROPHET TREATED FAIRLY AFTER THE PROPHET?
 

HOW CAN WE GIVE PREFERENCE TO UNFAITHFUL COMPANIONS OVER THE BLOOD RELATIONS OF THE PROPHET?

SO IN THIS VEIN, WE DO NOT CURSE, BUT WE CONDEMN AND ASSERT THAT THE WAY THE PROPHET'S FAMILY WAS ILL TREATED BY THE "COMPANIONS" WAS WRONG...

REFERENCES:
A] REFERENCES FOR THE SUCCESSORSHIP OF 'ALY IBN, ABITALEB AFTER RASOOLULLAH - THE EVENT OF GHADEER:

(1) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, under commentary of verse 5:67,v12, pp 49-50, narrated on the authorities of Ibn Abbas, al-Bara Ibn Azib, and Muhammad Ibn Ali.

(2) Asbab al-Nuzool, by al-Wahidi, p50, narrated on the authorities ofAtiyyah and Abu Sa'id al Khudri.

(3) Nuzul al-Quran, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu'aym narrated on the authoritiesAbu Sa'id Khudri and Abu Rafi.

(4) al-Fusool al Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki al-Makki, p24

(5) Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz al-Suyuti, under commentary of verse 5:67

(6) Fathul Qadir, by al-Shawkani, under commentary of verse 5:67

(7) Fathul Bayan, by Hasan Khan, under commentary of verse 5:67

(8) Shaykh Muhi al-Din al-Nawawi, under commentary of verse 5:67

(9) al-Sirah al-Halabiyah, by Noor al-Din al-Halabi, v3, p301

(10) Umdatul Qari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, by al-Ayni

(11) Tafsir al-Nisaboori, v6, p194

B] REFERENCES FOR WHAT HAPPENED TO THE FAMILY OF THE PROPHET AFTER HIS PASSING AWAY:


[01] Tafseer'e Ayyashi, volume 2 page 307
[02] Al Milalo was Nihal, volume 1 page 57
[03] Al Imamah was Siyasah, volume 1 page 20; Al Mustarshid, page 377/378
[04] Sulaym Ibne' Qays, page 74 and page 250
[05] Al Hidayatul Kubra, page 407
[06] Ash Shafi by Sayyed Murtaza, volume 3 page 24
[07] Muattamire’ Ulamae’ Baghdad, page 63
[08] Seeratul Aimmah Isna Ashar, volume 1 page 145
[09] Hadeeqatush Shiah; page 30
[10] Behaarul Anwaar, volume 53 page 19
 

ALSO READ THESE TWO ARTICLES AND DECIDE FOR YOURSELF WEATHER WRONG DOERS SHOULD BE CONDEMNED OR NOT:

 

 

 

Edited by Fatimiyyeh
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I do not curse them, and when I have the energy I take to task those who do.  Like you said, we don't really know what happened.  We're basing our judgement on sources that where written and trasmitted by regular humans, from what other humans told them.  It's not like the Qu'ran, where it was at least from a divine source and written by humans as transmitted by a prophet.  Anyone who's played the telephone game should have a good idea of how great humans are at preserving the exact story.  And exactly, they were his companions, and among his closest advisors.  If they were such horrible people, why wouldn't he kick them out of his circle if he feared they had ulterior motives?

Also, the self mutilation (also known as zanjeer matam) is stupid and haram.  It's a classic example of the snowballing effect that occurs when people try to compete in religion and do something they don't understand.  I'd be willing to bet it started as people lightly hitting their head to show grief, and then turned into beating themselves to show grief and feel the pain of Imam Hussain, and eventually turned into cutting themselves to feel the pain that Imam Hussain felt, and the person who could hurt themselves the most was obviously the most devoted and religious (sarcasm).

I don't get why so many people even care about sunni/shia.  Just focus on yourself and being a better person/Muslim.  Once you're perfect, then turn your energy into finding others' faults.

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Now about knifing with regards to Karbalaa:

This too, is not an act of the "Shiah"
Rather, it is just someone's way of expressing love... and we know,, some people can be more emotional than the others.. it doesn't depend on "sect" or anything, it is just a person on his own accord...

For example, we have seen people, when they love, they tend to slash their wrists... to prove their love.. others are also suicidal... will you generalize them all as Shiahs????

The knifing has got nothing to do with the rules of the Shiah faith... it is strictly personal...

 

 

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5 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

You don't follow abdullah ibn saba r.a that's why ...he is our leader guide and role model.

This is nonsense, @AleviTurkmenKhorasan, Ibn Saba is not my role model or my leader. Rather, Ali Ibn Abi Talib (as) is our leader and role model.

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3 hours ago, Fatimiyyeh said:

Now about knifing with regards to Karbalaa:

This too, is not an act of the "Shiah"
Rather, it is just someone's way of expressing love... and we know,, some people can be more emotional than the others.. it doesn't depend on "sect" or anything, it is just a person on his own accord...

For example, we have seen people, when they love, they tend to slash their wrists... to prove their love.. others are also suicidal... will you generalize them all as Shiahs????

The knifing has got nothing to do with the rules of the Shiah faith... it is strictly personal...

 

 

Was it not an Arab custom to beat oneself on the chest?

I don't know but maybe they did this in the time of the Prophet s.a.w. to show their grievance when someone passed away.

Edited by Alfasi
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9 hours ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

Why do shia curse omer, Osman etc

We don't know exactly know what happened and they are also the companions of Hz Muhammed saw

Also during kerbela, why do they knife theirselves?

We in Alevi say "Eline, Beline, Diline Sahip ol" - Haci Bektash Veli 

No stealing, cursing or haram

 

There is no concensus about the practice altough the most known ulama forbade this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatbir#Views_of_Grand_Ayatollahs_regarding_Tatbir

Edited by Alfasi
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1 hour ago, Alfasi said:

Was it not an Arab custom to beat oneself on the chest?

I don't know but maybe they did this in the time of the Prophet s.a.w. to show their grievance when someone passed away.

Indeed and esp when a lord or Sayyid passed away it was a spontaneous out pouring of grief and that's what the first matam  was as done by the tawwabun. Bear in mInd the tawwabun are generally highly respected by sunni scholars too.. ..these highly sophisticated developed "azadari" rituals are a persian creation centuries later of safavis which was transferred to mighal india and rest is history.

Edited by Panzerwaffe
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11 hours ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

Why do shia curse omer, Osman etc

We don't know exactly know what happened and they are also the companions of Hz Muhammed saw

Also during kerbela, why do they knife theirselves?

We in Alevi say "Eline, Beline, Diline Sahip ol" - Haci Bektash Veli 

No stealing, cursing or haram

 

Since you are Turkish, have a look at this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atRjXlzeE5I

Edited by celestial
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1 hour ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Indeed and esp when a lord or Sayyid passed away it was a spontaneous out pouring of grief and that's what the first matam  was as done by the tawwabun. Bear in mInd the tawwabun are generally highly respected by sunni scholars too.. ..these highly sophisticated developed "azadari" rituals are a persian creation centuries later of safavis which was transferred to mighal india and rest is history.

I agree without any hesitation.

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12 hours ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

Why do shia curse omer, Osman etc

We don't know exactly know what happened and they are also the companions of Hz Muhammed saw

Also during kerbela, why do they knife theirselves?

We in Alevi say "Eline, Beline, Diline Sahip ol" - Haci Bektash Veli 

No stealing, cursing or haram

 

I give you a brief description about it.

About cursing caliphs:

1.Religious leaders of Shias forbid cursing Sunnis' beloved characters. But in Pakistan (based on what i know) some Shia Akhonds curse Omar,Uthman... and nothing happens but if a Shia Akhond speaks of union he will probably be assassinated by bomb and ... . and the studios of TV channels that insult Omar, Uthman, ... are located in England.

 

2. The origin of self knifing returns to centuries ago when a caliph made a law that if a person want to visit Imam Hussein(as)'s tomb her/his hand must be cut. One day a group of pilgrims were stopped and said if you want to visist Imam Hussein(as)'s tomb you should cut your hands.They answered you to try to scare us from losing our hands, for Imam Hussein we give our heads and they took out their knives and hit their heads. When caliph heard this news he canceled the law.

This is the origin of knifing.

Knifing is forbidden now a days by religious leaders instead it is converted to donating blood on Ashura day.

But about those who still knife themselves you should know that they do it in England and the government guards them with polices so no one can bother them and also provides them medical services. [I have to mention that in England killing a hen is forbidden because it is an example of violence or the requiem for Ali Asghar(as) is forbidden because the story is violent]. Killing hen is forbidden requiem is forbidden but knifing is not.

the reason for these things is that the western countries that accidentally control the whole medias don't want Shias and Sunnis to unite.

Many Christians are converting to Islam and they don't want them to become Shias that's why they show the scenes of knifings 

 

Here are some pics of Christians crucifixion and knifing: 

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2725394_153.jpg

2725407_919.jpg

785695_856.jpg

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRt2G4ZtCqZE_L3adWvc5D

phoca_thumb_l_9.jpg

%D9%85%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%B3%D9%85+%D8%B9%D8

Those who show you shia knifing will never show you this because they don't want you to know it.

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13 hours ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

Why do shia curse omer, Osman etc

We don't know exactly know what happened and they are also the companions of Hz Muhammed saw

Also during kerbela, why do they knife theirselves?

We in Alevi say "Eline, Beline, Diline Sahip ol" - Haci Bektash Veli 

No stealing, cursing or haram

Considering that you are an 'Alawi, I would advise that you accept Islam first, before talking about Islam or Muslims.

1 hour ago, Hidaren said:

2. The origin of self knifing returns to centuries ago when a caliph made a law that if a person want to visit Imam Hussein(as)'s tomb her/his hand must be cut. One day a group of pilgrims were stopped and said if you want to visist Imam Hussein(as)'s tomb you should cut your hands.They answered you to try to scare us from losing our hands, for Imam Hussein we give our heads and they took out their knives and hit their heads. When caliph heard this news he canceled the law.

This is the origin of knifing.

Where did you get this bad joke?

Cutting yourself in the name of mourning anyone is a bid'ah - pure and simple. Trying to justify a bid'ah is a bid'ah in itself.

1 hour ago, Hidaren said:

the reason for these things is that the western countries that accidentally control the whole medias don't want Shias and Sunnis to unite.

Many Christians are converting to Islam and they don't want them to become Shias that's why they show the scenes of knifings

The Christians have nothing to do with the heresy of tatbir within Shi'i Islam.

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1 hour ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Considering that you are an 'Alawi, I would advise that you accept Islam first, before talking about Islam or Muslims.

Isn't that a bit harsh? You don't talk like this to Christians or non-Muslims, why is this attitude towards Alawites?

Edited by celestial
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3 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Ghulat are worse in kufr and evil than non-Muslims. This is the 'aqidah of Shi'ism.

I know a lot of people converted to Shia from Alawism. With that attitude, i don't think you are going to achieve much.

Wassalam.

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5 minutes ago, celestial said:

I know a lot of people converted to Shia from Alawism. With that attitude, i don't think you are going to achieve much.

Wassalam.

Imam 'Ali (peace be upon him) burnt them alive, while the subsequent Imams (peace be upon them) cursed them. What have I done yet?

Besides, are you saying I should call them Muslims?

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3 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Imam 'Ali (peace be upon him) burnt them alive, while the subsequent Imams (peace be upon them) cursed them. What have I done yet?

Besides, are you saying I should call them Muslims?

There is not one stereotype Alawi. You need to understand that...

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2 hours ago, celestial said:

I know a lot of people converted to Shia from Alawism. With that attitude, i don't think you are going to achieve much.

Wassalam.

I think he confounds the alevis of turkey who are kuffars and alawites from syria who are "strange shia".

But you know so many people who converted from alawism to shia ?

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10 minutes ago, alidu78 said:

I think he confounds the alevis of turkey who are kuffars and alawites from syria who are "strange shia".

But you know so many people who converted from alawism to shia ?

You too are quick to label them as kuffars. Why would an Alawi would come to this forum while you people act like this?

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16 minutes ago, celestial said:

You too are quick to label them as kuffars. Why would an Alawi would come to this forum while you people act like this?

Again for me there is a big difference between "Alevis" and "Alawites". The alawites live in syria and are from the same sect of Bachar Al Assad, i consider them as muslim and even shia (but with some different beliefs). But for the "Alevis" i talked with many of them in France and the leaders of this community in France said explicitly that they are not muslims.

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3 minutes ago, alidu78 said:

Again for me there is a big difference between "Alevis" and "Alawites". The alawites live in syria and are from the same sect of Bachar Al Assad, i consider them as muslim and even shia (but with some different beliefs). But for the "Alevis" i talked with many of them in France and the leaders of this community in France said explicitly that they are not muslims.

I use both Alawi and Alevi interchangeably, but i live in Turkey, i know Alevis. There are those who are closer to us, and there are those who don't consider themselves as muslims as you said. There is no uniformity...

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4 minutes ago, celestial said:

I use both Alawi and Alevi interchangeably, but i live in Turkey, i know Alevis. There are those who are closer to us, and there are those who don't consider themselves as muslims as you said. There is no uniformity...

For exemple this is the official page of the french alevi community https://www.facebook.com/LesAlevis/?fref=ts . If you ask them if they are muslims or not they will answer "NO" and even they insulted some of our beliefs.

Brother the alevis who you know in turkey where do they from ? From antioch ?

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10 minutes ago, alidu78 said:

For exemple this is the official page of the french alevi community https://www.facebook.com/LesAlevis/?fref=ts . If you ask them if they are muslims or not they will answer "NO" and even they insulted some of our beliefs.

Brother the alevis who you know in turkey where do they from ? From antioch ?

The Antioch alevis are more like Arab Alevis, similar to Nusayris. I'm talking about Anatolian Alevis. Here is the distrubution;firat-arapoglu-anti-pop-alevis-in-turkey

Edited by celestial
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12 minutes ago, celestial said:

I use both Alawi and Alevi interchangeably, but i live in Turkey, i know Alevis. There are those who are closer to us, and there are those who don't consider themselves as muslims as you said. There is no uniformity...

You do a big mistakes. Alawites and Alevis dont have the same beliefs.

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