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In the Name of God بسم الله

As an Alevi why do shia curse omer etc and knife theirselves

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3 minutes ago, alidu78 said:

Yes i see and i repeat to you that according to themselves anatolian alevis are not shia and even they say they are not muslims.

I'm not denying that, we have them in Turkey too. But i'm telling you this is not a general thing. They are not all the same.

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The Alevi's are muslims, they believe in Allah and the Quran but their interpretations and traditions are diffirent with maybe even some cultural and ethnical elements in it while on the other hand they have nothing to defend and so they have a very Quranic and a very critical approach towards the mainstreaam traditions, its history and traditions. 

They believe that minarets for example is an invention which is true. Also men and women gathered in the same place together for which they also have their proofs from the Sunnah. 

They were persecuted for the same reason as all Shia's were persecuted so I consider them very close to us.

 

Edited by Talut
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5 minutes ago, alidu78 said:

Maybe i could believe you. So some anatolian alevis say to you that they are in reality shia muslims ?

At least they consider themselves to be muslims. Even though they don't pay much attention to ibadah as we know it, they accept the wilayah of Ahlulbayt a.s. and deny their enemies. They know and accept tawalla & tabarra. I guess that's enough to make them shia, although they don't call themselves as shias. Allahu Alam.

Edited by celestial
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20 minutes ago, alidu78 said:

Again for me there is a big difference between "Alevis" and "Alawites".

Alawi and Alevi are merely variant spellings of the same word.

46 minutes ago, alidu78 said:

I think he confounds the alevis of turkey who are kuffars and alawites from syria who are "strange shia".

Would you mind telling us about their "strange" beliefs?

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37 minutes ago, celestial said:

You too are quick to label them as kuffars. Why would an Alawi would come to this forum while you people act like this?

He should have just stayed away, or done taqiyya, to come here and openly voice the kind of nonsense that he has voiced just made his whole religion look worse.

And to say it with some doubtless authority, I'm speechless.

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4 minutes ago, celestial said:

At least they consider themselves to be muslims. Even though they don't pay much attention to ibadah as we know it, they accept the wilayah of Ahlulbayt a.s. and deny the caliphs. I guess that's enough to make them shia, although they don't call themselves as shias. Allahu Alam.

How exactly do they accept the walayat? In the Sufi "batini" manner, I guess?

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4 minutes ago, Talut said:

The Alevi's are muslims, they believe in Allah and the Quran but their interpretations and traditions are diffirent with maybe even some cultural and ethnical elements in it while on the other hand they have nothing to defend and so they have a very Quranic and a very critical approach towards the mainstreaam traditions, its history and traditions. 

They believe that minarets for example is an invention which is true. Also men and women gathered in the same place together for which they also have their proofs from the Sunnah. 

They were persecuted for the same reason as all Shia's were persecuted so I consider them very close to us.

 

That was i believed before to talk to some alevis in France. they explained to me that in reality they don't believe in the prophecy of Muhammad saws and Allah. They dont believe in Hell or Heaven and of course for them Quran is not important. They explained to me that in reality there religion is a mix of turkish paganism, sufism , christianity and shia islam. And they like Ali as and Hussein as just because they are model of justice (like some people who like Che Guevara but are not communist) but not because they consider them as imams.

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6 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Alawi and Alevi are merely variant spellings of the same word.

Would you mind telling us about their "strange" beliefs?

No because Alevis who i met said explicitely to me that they were not shia and even not muslims but the alawites said they are shia muslims.

For there beliefs i dont really know but they said that they had some specific traditions that we dont have and they dont have marjas for exemple.

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5 minutes ago, alidu78 said:

That was i believed before to talk to some alevis in France. they explained to me that in reality they don't believe in the prophecy of Muhammad saws and Allah. They dont believe in Hell or Heaven and of course for them Quran is not important. They explained to me that in reality there religion is a mix of turkish paganism, sufism , christianity and shia islam. And they like Ali as and Hussein as just because they are model of justice (like some people who like Che Guevara but are not communist) but not because they consider them as imams.

That's the fruit of a campaign going on for years to seperate Alevis from religion. It's called "Alevism without Ali", they are truly wicked people and they are among the causes that Sunnis know Alevis in bad manner. May Allah chasten them...

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9 minutes ago, alidu78 said:

That was i believed before to talk to some alevis in France. they explained to me that in reality they don't believe in the prophecy of Muhammad saws and Allah. They dont believe in Hell or Heaven and of course for them Quran is not important. They explained to me that in reality there religion is a mix of turkish paganism, sufism , christianity and shia islam. And they like Ali as and Hussein as just because they are model of justice (like some people who like Che Guevara but are not communist) but not because they consider them as imams.

But like celestial already said Alevi's are not one homogenous group without distinctions. There are traditional, regional and religious diffirences as well. 

There is indeed a group that is inspired a lot by paganism and pantheism as well. Some have even Ghuluw elements.

Edited by Talut
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4 minutes ago, celestial said:

That's the fruit of a campaign going on for years to seperate Alevis from religion. It's called "Alevism without Ali", they are truly wicked people and they are among the causes that Sunnis know Alevis in bad manner. May Allah chasten them...

I really dont know brother. But that's what the administrator of the Facebook page of french alevi community explained to me.

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3 minutes ago, alidu78 said:

I really dont know brother. But that's what the administrator of the Facebook page of french alevi community explained to me.

Most of the Alevis you see on the Europe are most probably irreligious, they often embrace a western lifestyle. So don't get confused with them...

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5 minutes ago, Talut said:

But like celestial already said Alevi's are not one homogenous group without distinctions. There are traditional, regional and religious diffirences as well. 

There is indeed a group that is inspired a lot by paganism and pantheism as well.

Yes i know but when this guy who said that to me is supposed to be one of the most important representative of french alevi community...

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8 minutes ago, alidu78 said:

Sunni turkish are definetely more religious than Alevi turkish.

There is a diffirence between ceremonial or cultural muslims with a backward machismo and muslims who perform the outwardlly rules but with a real Islamic attitude as well. 



 

Edited by Talut
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7 minutes ago, celestial said:

I really encourage Shias to interact with Alevis. Their hearts overflow with the love of Ahlulbayt. But they need to be guided.

This is exactly what I was thinking as well as they were persecuted for the same reasons as all Shi'ites.

Politically they have the same opinion as Press TV. Pro-Assad, pro-underdog but also in Europe their view of how to behave as a muslim there could be used as an example for sunni's and muslims in general.

And they surely love the Ahl al-Bayt a.s.

 

Edited by Talut
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3 minutes ago, alidu78 said:

Inshallah. But you who live in Turkey do you know many shia here ? Converts or by birth .

No, especially where i live, Shias are very few. We don't even have a masjid. But there are large Shia communities in different cities. Still, its too few compared to general population.

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5 minutes ago, Talut said:

This is exactly what I was thinking as well as they were persecuted for the same reasons as all Shi'ites.

Politically they have the same opinion as Press TV. Pro-Assad, pro-underdog but also in Europe their view of how to behave as a muslim there could be used as an example for sunni's and muslims in general.

 

But Alevis don't like current Iran. They like the Safavid era.

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1 hour ago, alidu78 said:

I think he confounds the alevis of turkey who are kuffars and alawites from syria who are "strange shia".

But you know so many people who converted from alawism to shia ?

Unorthodox doesn't automatically mean kuffar that is going a little too far.

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