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.InshAllah.

10 Apologists’ Mistakes about the Trinity

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I'll have a listen to this later inshAllah. Ive recently started to try to understand the Trinity concept properly and im struggling. I feel i understand it better than i did but its as if language starts to lose its meaning when i try to reconcile the idea of a 'hypostatic union'. I also dont understand why the Holy Spirit is understood as a 'person' by Christians when Jews and Muslims dont find a need to do that. Doesnt it make more sense to understand the HS an attribute of God in the way that His creative power is? so many questions pop up.

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^this was addressed in the lecture he posted. 

And as far Shiism goes, Imam Ali taught: you find the truth then it's people.  You don't say "Shias say this" therefore to be a true followers of Ahlulbayt you must....that's absurd. You find the truth, then find it's people.

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Comment from William Birch:

The intimate relationship between Jesus and the Father comes into perspective when toward the end of his time with [His] disciples, Jesus says, "That you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father" (Jn 10:38; see also John 14:10-11; 17:21). Jesus also says, "I and the Father are one" (Jn 10:30). His hearers understand the implication and accuse him of blasphemy, "because you, being a man, make yourself God" (Jn 10:33; cf. John 10:36, 38; 17:11, 21-22).6

Anti-Trinitarians are obligated to side with Jesus' opponents and confess that He actually was a blasphemer; that is, if Jesus is not "one" with the Father, the second Person of the Trinity, who shares of the divine Essence. Therefore Jesus' death on the cross could in no manner conceivable have been propitiatory (atoning for our sins), but only an act of justice on the part of those who complained against His blasphemy, thus leading Him to His own crucifixion. 

 

In short: If Unitarianism is true, then Jesus deserved to die for blasphemy, since He made Himself out to be one with the God of Israel -- a notion all anti-Trinitarians are obligated to hold as objective and primary truth. Dr. Dale Tuggy and other anti-Trinitarians cannot, as is the old adage, have their cake and eat it, too. Either Jesus actually was (and is) divine, and shares in the same divine Essence with the Father (and the Holy Spirit), or He is the greatest blasphemer who ever lived, died a just death for His own sins of blasphemy (God forbid), and did not atone for the sin of the world (John 1:29).

 

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I did listen. He does not really deal with it, just makes statements that he wants you to think are true.  Since he comes from  an evangelical background, he makes some of the same historical mistakes and claims " Christians" say this or that, which my Church does not, has been slammed over his linguistics ...especially his use of the term " selves" and grasp of church history ( philosophers are not necessarily linguists or historians and since I just read a doctoral thesis on the trinitarian concepts in Iraneous I find that bit interesting) and has one of the oddest takes on the Book of Revelations I have heard. I guess I should pay more attention to what is going on in Evangelical/Pentecostal circles, but I've already put up refutations of them by their own scholars on other threads, so this is getting boring. I knew, since he still claimed to be some sort of "Christian", that this was going to end up in some sort of  true polytheism, instead of a Trinitarian ( to a Mainstream Christian) monotheism. So I followed him down the rabbit hole and wondered what a Muslim would make  of this: ( warning...near naked pic of St. John the Baptist and pics of everyone else)

 

Edited by LeftCoastMom

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@LeftCoastMom

For me, I have never liked and always struggled with the concept of Trinity. Christianity made no sense to me from a monotheist perspective. How can one be monotheist like Jews and Muslims, yet say Allah had a son or He became human to die for our sins. Allah is eternal and self-sufficient so He cannot die nor does He need a son or a blood sacrifice for our sins or the Original Sin of Adam and Eve. That too, never made any sense as babies are born innocent and people are not responsible for the sins of their forefathers. Plus, if Jesus and God were one and the same (John 10:30) , who was Jesus praying to in the Garden of Gethsemane? (Matthew 26:39-44). The more I looked into it, the more I became convinced that the Trinity was a concept meant to appeal to the pagan Romans and followers of various other mysteries in the Empire. It was the only way I could explain the apparent disconnect between Christianity versus Judaism and Islam. I hope that I did not sound ignorant when writing this, but that is how I see the Trinity currently. 

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13 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

@LeftCoastMom

For me, I have never liked and always struggled with the concept of Trinity. Christianity made no sense to me from a monotheist perspective. How can one be monotheist like Jews and Muslims, yet say Allah had a son or He became human to die for our sins. Allah is eternal and self-sufficient so He cannot die nor does He need a son or a blood sacrifice for our sins or the Original Sin of Adam and Eve. That too, never made any sense as babies are born innocent and people are not responsible for the sins of their forefathers. Plus, if Jesus and God were one and the same (John 10:30) , who was Jesus praying to in the Garden of Gethsemane? (Matthew 26:39-44). The more I looked into it, the more I became convinced that the Trinity was a concept meant to appeal to the pagan Romans and followers of various other mysteries in the Empire. It was the only way I could explain the apparent disconnect between Christianity versus Judaism and Islam. I hope that I did not sound ignorant when writing this, but that is how I see the Trinity currently. 

They should have never taught me how to study if they were going to teach me what to believe. 

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16 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

They should have never taught me how to study if they were going to teach me what to believe. 

Perhaps, although I would say that I shouldn't have been taught to read, study or think if I was going to be taught the doctrine of Trinity. 

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@Gaius I. Caesar No, you don't sound ignorant...but The very early Church was mostly Jewish and continued to be influenced by them for a while  ,which would have rejected this without good cause. Most of the early Church Fathers were not from pagan Rome , but the East and some from or close to the Holy Lands and if they were going to appeal to pagans in any area ...why not just do what Dr. Tuggy the " Christian" does and pray to a man? Or deify the Apostles? I think they were forming a logical conclusion from both apostolic accounts and scripture, which was fiercely defended from early days. The passages with Jesus talking to other persons of the Trinity just doesn't seem illogical to me because it's not a human situation, so I don't look at it as such.

I understand and accept that  Muslims don't accept it but they  keep digging around to find fringe " Christians" to support their stance when the evidence is overwhelmingly in their face that the vast majority of Christians accept this doctrine. So it's simply an academic exercise for me because I'm not interested in converting anyone either and I don't find Trinitarian discussions particularly interesting because so much regarding beliefs about God are not subject to anything but faith. Even belief in any God at all is not " logical" to many.  ( I honestly find those arguments boring, too, because again...a matter of faith.) 

 I would caution against flinging some of these you-tubes around in front of folks young in their faith. As I just showed with the last video from this lecturer advocating that it is logically false to worship God alone, people who reject Christianity will often lead others down a path to rejecting other forms of faith as well.   But it's you Muslims'  call. I just don't know why this keeps coming up.

Are we making that many converts? :grin:

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2 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

 I would caution against flinging some of these you-tubes around in front of folks young in their faith. As I just showed with the last video from this lecturer advocating that it is logically false to worship God alone, people who reject Christianity will often lead others down a path to rejecting other forms of faith as well.   But it's you Muslims'  call. I just don't know why this keeps coming up.

 

I agree, makes us look really stupid when it is revealed to be some weird 30-year thing from National Enquirer. The guy did not show that, rather he showed that it is logically false from a Christian perspective to worship God alone which is the First Commandment said (Deut.5:7, Exo. 20:3 and Psalms 81:9) because of the doctrine of Original Sin and what was told in the Revelation.

 

2 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Are we making that many converts? :grin:

No, not really from the Catholic side, I guess people prefer the happy-sappy sing-along kind with snake-handling and speaking in tongues with churches that look like shopping malls and superstar preachers from Protestant evangelical side, complete with feel-good speeches and a side of Catholic-hating fries with that. That's what I saw in North Carolina anyway.

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^ Lol. North Carolina. 

As I said, the Trinitarian Christian view is that they're worshipping " God Alone". This guy is doing something  weird. But you know that. 

Yes,these days Catholics in most places leave other people alone and let them come to us. The Churches are full already and we don't have enough pastors as it is. 

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Trinity is indeed complicated. I've just created a thread which you can see the debates regarding the status of Jesus (including its divinity vs humanity) which was discussed in the 7 early ecumenical councils in Christianity: 

 

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Honestly the trinity is well backed by the Gospels which is one of the reasons why I reject them. Its in the Baptism of Christ and the great commission for those who dont know

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