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In the Name of God بسم الله

Some Questions / Asking for your help

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Assalaamu aleykum wa rahmatullah dear brothers and sisters,

i hope you are in the best health and iman.

I'm a revert to Islam for about 10 years, alhamdulillah. After being Salafi for a long time, I decided for myself that the essence of salafism is a wrong approach to Islam and I chose to research about the several madhahib. I'm practicing Hanafi fiqh at the moment because it's easy to learn and the Ahnaf have some good arguments on their side as it is a very early school of thought. Fiqh of Medina interpreted by Imam Malik also has something appealing to me.

I find it very interesting, that both Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Malik were strongly against the tyrants of the Ummayads and that Abu Hanifa actually supported Imam  Zaid ibn Ali. So i started investigating a little more about the political situation in early Islam, which really raised a few questions.

Unfortunatly, there actually are still some Shia brothers and sisters who really think, that the Sunnis support and love Yazid , hate Ahlul Bayt and stuff like that. Of course this is false, and if there are Sunnis who hold this opinion, then they are deviant and misguided. I think this has to be made clear first.

So I already was clear about the injustice and sinfulness of the Ummayad rulers. The Sunni position towards Muawiya and other topics relating to this have been discussed earlier in many threads, so I decide not to go deeeper into this.

During my reasearch I investigated the shiite version of the historical events and found certain points I can agree with. To make it a little bit clearer, I already knew that the Zaidi Shia were closer to the Sunnis and more balanced in their views (as far as I consider it), so I looked at their approach (they have a few english websites) and what I found really made some sense. I kept reading through this forum for a while, but it doesn't seem like there are any Zaidis here (correct me if I'm wrong, would be really happy if there were some), so maybe  it's the wrong place to find out more about their stance here. Where I live, there are only very few Shia, who are not very well organized and I think almost no Zaidis. Whatever, my point is, maybe you can give me some arguments for the 12ers approach or at least bring some light into my doubts. Maybe I got some things wrong and maybe this is the right path, i don't know.

May Allah reward anybody who can answer my questions honestly.

I don't think it would make sense to crush you with tons of questions right now, so maybe we can talk about things one after another. I'm sure everybody agrees, that everybody (including myself) should stick to the Adab of Islam in such a matter. Because it might happen that there might be several opinions and probably we won't agree on everything. So we should show mutual respect also respect other opinions, which should be normal for any Muslim anyway.

Allah is my witness that my intention is neither to offend anyone nor to raise doubts about someones believes, wallahy. All I want is to find out things first-hand and I consider it a good opportunity to learn from you.

I mention this explicitly, because my very first question could be misinterpreted. Please don't get me wrong, about this, brothers and sisters. I really haven't fully understood what Taqqiyah in your madhab means and this really boggles my mind. So my first question would be, how can I be sure that you tell me the true positions of your madhab when it is considered as an `Ibada (as far as I understood it) to lie about the `Aqaaid to non-shias?

This is really confusing to me, because I'm sure everybody knows this harcore-takfeeri Yaser Habib. This guy attacks the mainstream-shia for their Taqqiyah and implies, that actually every 12er holds the same views he has, but they don't come out with it. Is this true?

Barak Allahu feekum wa Assaalaamu aleykum

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Ok, thank you brother. So, obviously I'm neither in the position nor have the intention to cause anybody harm according to his believes, inshaAllah everybody will answer my questions honestly :)

Maybe one question to you brother, did you not reply my Salaam because I'm a kafir for you? Unfortunatly, I had this experience one or two times when talking to Shiites. So, are Ahlu-Sunnah in general Kuffar according to `Ithna Asharis? Or is there disagreement about this on your scholars?

My second question is similar and this made wonder everytime it came to my mind:

Unlike the Zaidis, who just think that it was either sinful or an error of Abu Bakr and `Umar taking the Chilapha from `Alee (I feel like they have some Ikhtilaaf about this), I think I'm right that 12ers see them as kuffar. So if they were kuffar and the believers actually only were very few, why didn't they just return to their old ways and worship the idols and revive the traditions and laws of jahiliyya?

I feel the Zaidiyya have a considerable point, but the opinion that they and most of the sahaba apostated right out raises the question, why they didn't return to their old ways and tried to kill the few remaining muslims.

Barak Allahu feekum for your replies

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Oh, and before I forget: maybe somebody can answer my question about Yasser Habib: is it true, that what he says is the general belief of all `Ithna Ashariya and the other scholars avoid to utter these views publicly for "security reasons"?

Because if so, I would wonder why Sheykh Hassan Nasrallah from Hezbollah made some positive statements about Sunni/Shia-Peace. There wouldn't be too much reason to lie and most certainly Hezbollah is strong enough and wouldn't have to worry too much about being attacked for making a step towards the Sunnis and questioning some points within the 12er madhab.

I hope you get my point, english is not my native tongue and I might sometimes not find the proper words or make some grammar-mistakes :):)

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4 hours ago, Abd-alHaq said:

I mention this explicitly, because my very first question could be misinterpreted. Please don't get me wrong, about this, brothers and sisters. I really haven't fully understood what Taqqiyah in your madhab means and this really boggles my mind. So my first question would be, how can I be sure that you tell me the true positions of your madhab when it is considered as an `Ibada (as far as I understood it) to lie about the `Aqaaid to non-shias?

I would like to see your evidence for the part in red.

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This is really confusing to me, because I'm sure everybody knows this harcore-takfeeri Yaser Habib. This guy attacks the mainstream-shia for their Taqqiyah and implies, that actually every 12er holds the same views he has, but they don't come out with it. Is this true?

Yasir al-Khabith is only a pretender. Taqiyyah is obligatory in Shi'ism - and whosoever abandons it before the rise of Imam al-Hujjah (ajfs) is no longer a Muslim. Yasir has abandoned it. So, do the maths.

Secondly, Yasir tells lies a lot, and has regularly attributed lies to the Imams (peace be upon them). You cannot seriously put value on the words of a worthless man like that.

1 hour ago, Abd-alHaq said:

Ok, thank you brother. So, obviously I'm neither in the position nor have the intention to cause anybody harm according to his believes, inshaAllah everybody will answer my questions honestly :)

Maybe one question to you brother, did you not reply my Salaam because I'm a kafir for you? Unfortunatly, I had this experience one or two times when talking to Shiites. So, are Ahlu-Sunnah in general Kuffar according to `Ithna Asharis? Or is there disagreement about this on your scholars?

If 'Abd Allah b. Ubayy who denied the nubuwwah of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) could be a Muslim, how then can Sunnis be non-Muslims?

The only outright non-Muslims among Sunnis are the Nawasib - those who hate or insult any of the Twelve Imams (peace be upon them) or their Shi'ah (may Allah protect them).

1 hour ago, Abd-alHaq said:

Unlike the Zaidis, who just think that it was either sinful or an error of Abu Bakr and `Umar taking the Chilapha from `Alee (I feel like they have some Ikhtilaaf about this), I think I'm right that 12ers see them as kuffar. So if they were kuffar and the believers actually only were very few, why didn't they just return to their old ways and worship the idols and revive the traditions and laws of jahiliyya?

Abu Bakr and 'Umar were definitely Muslims. There is no doubt about that. They recited the two Shahadah, and that is all that is required to be a Muslim. But, were they believers? Did they have iman? That is a different question.

Anyone who rejects a man from Allah certainly has no iman or loses his iman.

The khilafah cannot be seized, taken or stolen. But, there can be false pretenders, who claim to be khulafa even though they are not. This happened between Prophet Harun (peace be upon him) and al-Samiri during the absence of Prophet Musa (peace be upon him).

2 hours ago, Abd-alHaq said:

I feel the Zaidiyya have a considerable point, but the opinion that they and most of the sahaba apostated right out raises the question, why they didn't return to their old ways and tried to kill the few remaining muslims.

I need your evidence for the part in red.

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Thank You for your reply. First of all i have to make clear that i only understood the issue of using taqqiyah understood as lying about the deen being ibadah from the little research i did. Same thing with apostasy of sahaba actually. As i saied, im here to learn. So thanks again. As we have an Exchange in another thread i would suggest we talk about This here, makes it more covineant. Ok, so you stated that abu bakr and omar are muslim and so are the sunnis. Then why will they still go to hell for eternity? Ans zaidiyya dont reject the other a'imma, as far as i know. They call them a'imma of knowledge. They actually dont accept the 12th one and the occultation because their mahdi is more like the mahdi of The sunnis. As far as yet, i think if i become shia i go for The zaidis. Their concept of infallability sounds more rational to me and their imamate concept also is more appealing to logic in my opinion. Maybe its because before my Islam i was catholic and rejected it because it contained things that couldnt ne proven but had to ne believed blindly.

Still i appreciate your answers, would you be willing to answer some other questions?

 

By The way, are there any other opinions?

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7 minutes ago, Abd-alHaq said:

Thank You for your reply. First of all i have to make clear that i only understood the issue of using taqqiyah understood as lying about the deen being ibadah from the little research i did.

Taqiyyah is anything you do out of fear. The fear might be fatal. Or, it could be another type of fear. For instance, as recorded in the Sunni books, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) failed to reconstruct the Ka'bah upon its original foundations because he feared that his Sahabah would apostatize. THAT was taqiyyah. Yet, he did not lie about anything.

Taqiyyah does NOT mean telling lies about your Deen. Yes, one may do that if he is confronted by Sunni extremists like ISIS and others. However, in ordinary circumstances like this, where the Sunni poses no immediate fatal danger, why would anyone do that? Taqiyyah has its rules, circumstances and conditions. And ALL Muslims and ALL Muslim countries practise it. Even Yasir the Pretender, he practises taqiyyah even though he denies it.

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Same thing with apostasy of sahaba actually.

There were 12,000 saints of Allah among the Sahabah according to a sahih Shi'i hadith. As for the ahadith about their apostasy, none of them has a reliable chain. If you disagree, present any with a good chain.

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Ok, so you stated that abu bakr and omar are muslim and so are the sunnis. Then why will they still go to hell for eternity?

'Abd Allah b. Ubayy died a Muslim too. Yet, he will burn forever in Hellfire. Dying a Muslim means little. Dying a mumin is the key.

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Ans zaidiyya dont reject the other a'imma, as far as i know. They call them a'imma of knowledge. They actually dont accept the 12th one and the occultation because their mahdi is more like the mahdi of The sunnis.

If you deny the Imamah of any of the rightful Imams, or you attribute Imamah to anyone not appointed by Allah, you are then a deviant.

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As far as yet, i think if i become shia i go for The zaidis. Their concept of infallability sounds more rational to me and their imamate concept also is more appealing to logic in my opinion. Maybe its because before my Islam i was catholic and rejected it because it contained things that couldnt ne proven but had to ne believed blindly.

You might as well have problem with the general Islamic concept of 'ismah, which even Sunnis sometimes affirm for the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family). The Prophet has informed us that his real successors would NEVER contradict the Qur'an. That is sufficient for us.

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Your replies sound a little Bit like you would assume that i challenged the whole 12er Community for a debate. This is not the case, i can only repeat that i came here to learn.

First of all i cant really understand, why somebody should go to hell forever who dies in Islam. Is there any proof that all 12 a'imma have to be accepted to be considered a mu'min?

The sunni and zaidi concept of infallability also means, that there are no mistakes in the mahsoom when it comes to transmission of the message. But is it not true that ithna asharis also consider the mahsoomeen being able to give and take life, having ilmul ghayb, being allknowing, being able to choose their time of death, knowing all languages and other things?

Again, i cant give you proof for my assumption. Im just asking if this is true or not. If it is not true, why are there shia who believe this and what is their hukm? If my assumption is wrong, i might have more questions.

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One question i forgot, according to zaidiyya the imam must be from either hassan or hussein, rightous, giving charity, sane, mature, male and making khoorooj if able to do so. It is not required that he is chosen by Allahu ta'ala.

How can it be proofed that the 12 a'ima are appointed by Allah and how did their shia know? And why did they disagree sometimes ( for example the ismailiyya)?

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Dear Brother @Abd-alHaq

My Allah bless you if you are here to learn. One basic etiquette of learning is, when you ask a question, and you are given an answer, kindly stick to that answer first, offer your rebuttal or at least acknowledge that you have accepted a part of it, or if certain parts confuses you, then ask further questions and get yourself to a comfortable conclusion.

I'll humbly advice to dear brother AbuFatima Muhammadi to not fall in the trap of Sunni question on topic 1 -> Shia answer -> Sunni question on topic 2 -> Shia answer -> Sunni question on topic 1 and the same circle back to square one for the 100th time.

I apologize if I'm generalizing here but after reading multiple books on Shia Sunni discourses, nothing OP brother is asking is new here, among scholars and also among laymen, it mostly follows the same cycle of spiral above. 

SO just for this once, I again request and recommend to dear brother @Abd-alHaq to ask a question, get the answer, state what you get out of that answer, stick to that question, state your understanding or refusal of that answer and then move on to the next question.

You will learn nothing if you keep jumping from Q1 to Q2 to Q3 to Qn and back to Q3to Q1 to Q4 and so on.

W'salam 

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20 minutes ago, Abd-alHaq said:

Your replies sound a little Bit like you would assume that i challenged the whole 12er Community for a debate. This is not the case, i can only repeat that i came here to learn.

When you come here throwing around baseless accusations, you should naturally not expected to be treated mildly.

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First of all i cant really understand, why somebody should go to hell forever who dies in Islam. Is there any proof that all 12 a'imma have to be accepted to be considered a mu'min?

Are you saying (i) that 'Abd Allah b. Ubayy did not die a Muslim or (ii) that he will be in Paradise?

Anyway, Hadith al-Thaqalayn is very clear. If you do not follow the Ahl al-Bayt, then you are misguided.

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The sunni and zaidi concept of infallability also means, that there are no mistakes in the mahsoom when it comes to transmission of the message.

Hadith al-Thaqalayn states specifically that the Ahl al-Bayt NEVER contradict the Qur'an. That apparently destroys the laughable concept of 'ismah of the Zaydiyyah.

I would like to ask you: if there is a man who never contradicts the Qur'an, what would you say about him?

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But is it not true that ithna asharis also consider the mahsoomeen being able to give and take life, having ilmul ghayb, being allknowing, being able to choose their time of death, knowing all languages and other things?

Provide the authentic Shi'i reports first. Then, we will talk.

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Again, i cant give you proof for my assumption. Im just asking if this is true or not. If it is not true, why are there shia who believe this and what is their hukm? If my assumption is wrong, i might have more questions.

I have no reason to feed your accusations. Do proper researches. When you have the proofs, then bring them.

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18 minutes ago, Abd-alHaq said:

One question i forgot, according to zaidiyya the imam must be from either hassan or hussein, rightous, giving charity, sane, mature, male and making khoorooj if able to do so. It is not required that he is chosen by Allahu ta'ala.

According to the Qur'an, Imamah is the Covenant of Allah, and it is appointed by Him. What you stated is another clear proof that the Zaydiyyah are indeed deviants.

Quote

How can it be proofed that the 12 a'ima are appointed by Allah and how did their shia know? And why did they disagree sometimes ( for example the ismailiyya)?

How do you know if a prophet has truly been appointed by Allah?

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Dear brother @Abd-alHaq

Its been more than 10 posts on this topic so far, and you have not replied once of how did you make your opinion on the Taqiyyah of Shia?

1. Could you kindly elaborate why you stated what you stated about Taqiyyah?

2. Could you kindly find Taqiyyah in Quran?

3. Do you agree that Taqiyyah is in Quran or do you disagree that it is in Quran?

Once you answer above, then we could talk more about Taqiyyah. Let us move on to next questions once we lay Taqiyyah question to the rest.

I would recommend everybody to stop filling the posts unless we hear something from the dear OP on his opinion of his first assertion of Taqiyyah.

 

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24 minutes ago, Abd-alHaq said:

How can it be proofed that the 12 a'ima are appointed by Allah 

We are all here to learn from each other and understand each other's point of view.

Do you think, we should first address and have a dialogue on the Fundamentals/Basic of Islam.
One question, I have is to understand based on your research do you think Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp] announced a successor, if Yes - who is it or if No. What method was left for the Muslims to follow by the Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp]. Based on the answer , How does this question impact the Status of the Prophethood and ultimately Tawheed.

Layman.

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3 minutes ago, Irfani313 said:

Dear brother @Abd-alHaq

Its been more than 10 posts on this topic so far, and you have not replied once of how did you make your opinion on the Taqiyyah of Shia?

1. Could you kindly elaborate why you stated what you stated about Taqiyyah?

2. Could you kindly find Taqiyyah in Quran?

3. Do you agree that Taqiyyah is in Quran or do you disagrre that it is in Quran?

Once you asnwer above, then we could talk more about Taqiyyah. Let us move on to next questions once we lay Taqiyyah question to the rest.

I will no longer answer any of his questions until he addresses our previous answers.

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Dear brothers, i already told you that i dont want to accuse or offend anyone. I am here for asking questions and i am happy if i can get answers. As far as i know, ibn ubayy is mostly consiidered as a munafiq which is a haal different from muslim.

Dear brother irfan, i do exactly this: I get an answer and if the answer is not clear or convincing, i keep asking. I am not forced to accept any given answer blindly. If i am wrong about something, why dont you simply correct me by saying look, dear brother, you got this and that wrong and then give my proof instead of answering questions with questions. There is also an etticete of teaching.

A person not contradcting the quran is a mumin. A person contradicting quran is a faasiq.

I recognize a prophet by being mentioned as a prophet by Allah or his messenger sawas.

But what has this to do with the a'imma? They are no prophets.

Why is the zaidi concept of an imam foolish? Isnt this very offensive and also baseless?

The taqqiyah issue is already solved. The brother sent me two links and i accepted what i saied in these links. If i was first in error about it, then it simply comes from idiots like yasser habib and anti shia propaganda.

Im not so far to accept it 100%, but im 99,9% sure that 'Alee was supposed to be the successor of rasulullah sawas

Edited by Abd-alHaq
More answers came in i had to reply to
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6 minutes ago, Abd-alHaq said:

Dear brothers, i already told you that i dont want to accuse or offend anyone. I am here for asking questions and i am happy if i can get answers. As far as i know, ibn ubayy is mostly consiidered as a munafiq which is a haal different from muslim.

And a munafiq is not a Muslim?!! OK, why then did the Prophet allow Ibn Ubayy to perform jihad with him? Would you mind shedding light on that?

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A person not contradcting the quran is a mumin. A person contradicting quran is a faasiq.

I asked about a person who NEVER contradicts the Qur'an. The above is your answer. Then, I have more questions:

1. Are you a mumin?

2. If yes, does this mean that you never contradict the Qur'an?

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I recognize a prophet by being mentioned as a prophet by Allah or his messenger sawas.

But what has this to do with the a'imma? They are no prophets.

The Imams are announced by Allah too, through His Messenger.

Quote

Why is the zaidi concept of an imam foolish? Isnt this very offensive and also baseless?

The Zaydi concept of 'ismah is laughable, because it allow "imams" who sometimes contradict the Qur'an.

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7 hours ago, Abd-alHaq said:

I really haven't fully understood what Taqqiyah in your madhab means and this really boggles my mind.

mainstream-shia for their Taqqiyah and implies, that actually every 12er holds the same views he has, but they don't come out with it. Is this true?

Since you had a concern about Taqqiyah. Members have pointed out what you can refer to understand. Untill that point, since you have this in your mind. It is prudent that we can ask you your understanding. 

Do you think, we should first address and have a dialogue on the Fundamentals/Basic of Islam.
One question, I have is to understand based on your research do you think Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp] announced a successor, if Yes - who is it or if No. What method was left for the Muslims to follow by the Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp]. Based on the answer , How does this question impact the Status of the Prophethood and ultimately Tawheed.

 

Edited by S.M.H.A.
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Dear brother @Abd-alHaq

Could you kindly summarize then what is your new understanding of Taqiyyah is? Did you find Taqiyyah in Quran. I really don't care what you think of Zaidis or Yasir the half literate hate monger.

All I ask is since you come here in good faith of learning inshAllah, could you kindly state what you learned from Taqiyyah link? Again this is irrespective of what you we Shia think of it, what is your understanding of Taqiyyah now?

Let's stick to Taqiyyah. Please don't jump to Q2 yet :)

Also you didn't reply the first question on Taqiyyah that Br. AbuFatimah had highlighted in red on Taqiyyah. Please answer that too.

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FYI -

Brother @Abd-alHaq emailed me a few minutes ago that he could not post anymore. Since he is a new member, SC policy puts a limitation on the number of posts new members can make in a 24 hours period.

Brother Abd-alHaq had a response on Taqiyyah which he sent me. I'm not going to post it. I would rather brother Abd-alHaq post it himself tomorrow.

I've also requested Br. Abd-alHaq to use these 24 hours on no post time to reflect more on the Taqiyyah, find Taqiyyah in Quran, find out why Shia believe it is wajib to believe and practice it, and why Sunnis do not even though Allah swt makes it in Quran.

 

Let's wait for next 10 posts of Br. Abd-alHaq tomorrow.

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For the rest of us, let's do not burden Br. @Abd-alHaq with more answers.

No sane learner can take so many answers in one go. Let's put the Taqiyyah question to the rest tomorrow. Let's also find the conclusion to it and hear out if OP's opinion is changed or not and what makes it that still causes doubts. I would recommend not to move on to other Qs without extracting a solid statement of understanding from the OP, it does not matter if he ends up agreeing it or not as long as we get a statement of understanding. And ideally a pledge from our dear brother @Abd-alHaq that if things make sense, he would be able to teach other Sunnis the right version of Shia fatih rather than the accusations without evidence that were highlighted in red in Br.AbuFatimah post above. 

 

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Digress here a little 

sahih imami shia hadith saying 12 k saints among Sahaba , can someone give a reference for that.

And does it clarify if there were 12k Sahaba as saints any survived the prophet? I.e how many of these 12k were alive when the issue of saqifa started ?

 

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On 1 April 2016 at 4:21 PM, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

For instance, as recorded in the Sunni books, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) failed to reconstruct the Ka'bah upon its original foundations because he feared that his Sahabah would apostatize. THAT was taqiyyah.

Can anyone give a reference of this, if possible? 

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5 hours ago, Zigzag said:

Can anyone give a reference of this, if possible? 

This is from Sahih Muslim:

وحدثني محمد بن حاتم حدثني ابن مهدي حدثنا سليم بن حيان عن سعيد يعني ابن ميناء قال سمعت عبد الله بن الزبير يقول حدثتني خالتي يعني عائشة قالت قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يا عائشة لولا أن قومك حديثو عهد بشرك لهدمت الكعبة فألزقتها بالأرض وجعلت لها بابين بابا شرقيا وبابا غربيا وزدت فيها ستة أذرع من الحجر فإن قريشا اقتصرتها حيث بنت الكعبة

Muhammad b. Hatim – Ibn Mahdi – Sulaym b. Hayyan – Sa’id b. Mayna - ‘Abd Allah b. al-Zubayr – ‘Aishah:

The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said, “O ‘Aishah, if your people had not been recently polytheists, I would have demolished the Ka’bah, and would have razed it to the ground, and would have constructed two doors, one facing the east and the other one to the west, and would have added to it six cubits of area from al-Hijr, for the Quraysh had reduced it when they rebuilt it.”

And this is another one from Sahih Muslim:

حدثنا يحيى بن يحيى أخبرنا أبو معاوية عن هشام بن عروة عن أبيه عن عائشة قالت قال لي رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم لولا حداثة عهد قومك بالكفر لنقضت الكعبة ولجعلتها على أساس إبراهيم فإن قريشا حين بنت البيت استقصرت ولجعلت لها خلفا

Yahya b. Yahya – Abu Mu’awiyah – Hisham b. ‘Urwah – his father – ‘Aishah:

The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said to me, “Had your people not been disbelievers until recently, I would have demolished the Ka’bah and would have rebuilt it upon the foundation laid by Ibrahim for when the Quraysh built the House, they reduced (it), and I would have built for it in the rear.”
 

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Salam

Personally I was non-Muslim for about five years, and one the constant things that made me think about Islam was the promise of the Mahdi. The promise of an exalted chosen leader by God bringing justice to the world is so intuitive, so manifest for anyone who has faith in God. 

The concept of leadership and power and authority, I suggest studying a little bit of political theories regarding power and authority and today's discussion of "what is power", and "what is authority".

It's very interesting because the Quran has a concept of "Taghut" which although in meaning means that which is worshiped aside from God is used in Quran specially to refer to false authority taken besides God's authority.

Obeying a Messenger or a King appointed by God like Talut, however was not worshiping these beings.

I thought about the talk of Taghut a lot. It's so sophisticated, and with a little spiritual awakening, you will see it's also an illusion/sorcery/magic that needs to be annulled in the hearts of humans, for it inspired by dark forces in the hearts of humanity. That is why the Quran calls it the Jibt.

I think if you study a little political science, take a course or two about this subject, you will see Quran discussed key issues, in key places, and links them to important subjects.

It can be said that this political subject occurs in the Quran in as much as does spiritual affairs in Quran that are discussed. I haven't counted but they are essentially linked.

To make things short, there is no real authority aside from God's authority, no true person that holds that power that they "should" be followed, except those who God appoints and chooses, those who guide by the truth and you know fully well they are guided.

The Quran showed to Mushrikeen, aside from that there were no equals to God to put servants as sons of God or daughters of God, the reality was it wasn't for them to choose anyways who is a means towards God and who is an exalted servant of God to be revered to get closer to God, rather, God creates and selects, they have no selection.

This verse in context implies the same about choosing leaders who we are to follow to get close to God.  Those who chose there own leaders have no share in the path of submission to God, because to submit to God, you must follow only those who God chooses for you to follow.

Of course we were to learn from those more learned from us and teach it to others, but that is different, then holding the position of "leader" as in this person can be followed fully for the sake of following God.

This includes political, spiritual, and religious leadership.  

This is why Quran after emphasizing in Suratal Shura that God enjoined the same religion that he revealed to Nuh, Abraham, Moses and Jesus, and to Mohammad, and emphasizes that God chooses for himself who he wants and guides to himself who turns to toward him, and then later emphasizes on the love of the family of Mohammad (42:23)...goes on to emphasize that their rule is council among themselves. This because they were to teach the teachings of the family of Mohammad through council to one another.

That is to say the affair of the religion that is to unite humanity and rule them, is done through council of one another, learning from one another.

This is because our aim is to follow what God revealed, which the aim is to follow the light he has brought down, which is to follow God's Signs in our souls and in the horizons, which is to follow the truth of God's beautiful names. 

This is was the ideal society. 

The axis humanity was suppose to make authority over them, was Quran and Ahlulbayt.

People always do the mistakes of saying the following:

God reveals to humanity certain things.

We don't know what he revealed, but these people who studied to.

We will follow the people who studied it, and following them is following God.

This formula never worked in the past once, and always resulted in the true leaders appointed by God to be abandoned.  

If it ever worked, it was by unlikely chance. It's not something God would advocate.

That said leadership is so essential to humanity, that surely, there will be a leader that God will unite humanity upon one day. That is clear to me.

To Sunnis that leader is a normal person. So Shias, he is chosen like Prophets are chosen. Now read Quran and be honest to yourself, which one is per God's Sunnah and the whole of Quran is arguing the wisdom for?

 

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight
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On ‎4‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 2:34 AM, Abd-alHaq said:

Assalaamu aleykum wa rahmatullah dear brothers and sisters,

 

i hope you are in the best health and iman.

I'm a revert to Islam for about 10 years, alhamdulillah. After being Salafi for a long time, I decided for myself that the essence of salafism is a wrong approach to Islam and I chose to research about the several madhahib. I'm practicing Hanafi fiqh at the moment because it's easy to learn and the Ahnaf have some good arguments on their side as it is a very early school of thought. Fiqh of Medina interpreted by Imam Malik also has something appealing to me.

I find it very interesting, that both Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Malik were strongly against the tyrants of the Ummayads and that Abu Hanifa actually supported Imam  Zaid ibn Ali. So i started investigating a little more about the political situation in early Islam, which really raised a few questions.

Unfortunatly, there actually are still some Shia brothers and sisters who really think, that the Sunnis support and love Yazid , hate Ahlul Bayt and stuff like that. Of course this is false, and if there are Sunnis who hold this opinion, then they are deviant and misguided. I think this has to be made clear first.

So I already was clear about the injustice and sinfulness of the Ummayad rulers. The Sunni position towards Muawiya and other topics relating to this have been discussed earlier in many threads, so I decide not to go deeeper into this.

During my reasearch I investigated the shiite version of the historical events and found certain points I can agree with. To make it a little bit clearer, I already knew that the Zaidi Shia were closer to the Sunnis and more balanced in their views (as far as I consider it), so I looked at their approach (they have a few english websites) and what I found really made some sense. I kept reading through this forum for a while, but it doesn't seem like there are any Zaidis here (correct me if I'm wrong, would be really happy if there were some), so maybe  it's the wrong place to find out more about their stance here. Where I live, there are only very few Shia, who are not very well organized and I think almost no Zaidis. Whatever, my point is, maybe you can give me some arguments for the 12ers approach or at least bring some light into my doubts. Maybe I got some things wrong and maybe this is the right path, i don't know.

May Allah reward anybody who can answer my questions honestly.

I don't think it would make sense to crush you with tons of questions right now, so maybe we can talk about things one after another. I'm sure everybody agrees, that everybody (including myself) should stick to the Adab of Islam in such a matter. Because it might happen that there might be several opinions and probably we won't agree on everything. So we should show mutual respect also respect other opinions, which should be normal for any Muslim anyway.

Allah is my witness that my intention is neither to offend anyone nor to raise doubts about someones believes, wallahy. All I want is to find out things first-hand and I consider it a good opportunity to learn from you.

I mention this explicitly, because my very first question could be misinterpreted. Please don't get me wrong, about this, brothers and sisters. I really haven't fully understood what Taqqiyah in your madhab means and this really boggles my mind. So my first question would be, how can I be sure that you tell me the true positions of your madhab when it is considered as an `Ibada (as far as I understood it) to lie about the `Aqaaid to non-shias?

This is really confusing to me, because I'm sure everybody knows this harcore-takfeeri Yaser Habib. This guy attacks the mainstream-shia for their Taqqiyah and implies, that actually every 12er holds the same views he has, but they don't come out with it. Is this true?

 

Barak Allahu feekum wa Assaalaamu aleykum

bismillah.gif.441f6334849dad61f4b767338f

On ‎4‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 2:34 AM, Abd-alHaq said:

Assalaamu aleykum wa rahmatullah dear brothers and sisters,

 

i hope you are in the best health and iman.

I'm a revert to Islam for about 10 years, alhamdulillah. After being Salafi for a long time, I decided for myself that the essence of salafism is a wrong approach to Islam and I chose to research about the several madhahib. I'm practicing Hanafi fiqh at the moment because it's easy to learn and the Ahnaf have some good arguments on their side as it is a very early school of thought. Fiqh of Medina interpreted by Imam Malik also has something appealing to me.

I find it very interesting, that both Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Malik were strongly against the tyrants of the Ummayads and that Abu Hanifa actually supported Imam  Zaid ibn Ali. So i started investigating a little more about the political situation in early Islam, which really raised a few questions.

Unfortunatly, there actually are still some Shia brothers and sisters who really think, that the Sunnis support and love Yazid , hate Ahlul Bayt and stuff like that. Of course this is false, and if there are Sunnis who hold this opinion, then they are deviant and misguided. I think this has to be made clear first.

So I already was clear about the injustice and sinfulness of the Ummayad rulers. The Sunni position towards Muawiya and other topics relating to this have been discussed earlier in many threads, so I decide not to go deeeper into this.

During my reasearch I investigated the shiite version of the historical events and found certain points I can agree with. To make it a little bit clearer, I already knew that the Zaidi Shia were closer to the Sunnis and more balanced in their views (as far as I consider it), so I looked at their approach (they have a few english websites) and what I found really made some sense. I kept reading through this forum for a while, but it doesn't seem like there are any Zaidis here (correct me if I'm wrong, would be really happy if there were some), so maybe  it's the wrong place to find out more about their stance here. Where I live, there are only very few Shia, who are not very well organized and I think almost no Zaidis. Whatever, my point is, maybe you can give me some arguments for the 12ers approach or at least bring some light into my doubts. Maybe I got some things wrong and maybe this is the right path, i don't know.

May Allah reward anybody who can answer my questions honestly.

I don't think it would make sense to crush you with tons of questions right now, so maybe we can talk about things one after another. I'm sure everybody agrees, that everybody (including myself) should stick to the Adab of Islam in such a matter. Because it might happen that there might be several opinions and probably we won't agree on everything. So we should show mutual respect also respect other opinions, which should be normal for any Muslim anyway.

Allah is my witness that my intention is neither to offend anyone nor to raise doubts about someones believes, wallahy. All I want is to find out things first-hand and I consider it a good opportunity to learn from you.

I mention this explicitly, because my very first question could be misinterpreted. Please don't get me wrong, about this, brothers and sisters. I really haven't fully understood what Taqqiyah in your madhab means and this really boggles my mind. So my first question would be, how can I be sure that you tell me the true positions of your madhab when it is considered as an `Ibada (as far as I understood it) to lie about the `Aqaaid to non-shias?

This is really confusing to me, because I'm sure everybody knows this harcore-takfeeri Yaser Habib. This guy attacks the mainstream-shia for their Taqqiyah and implies, that actually every 12er holds the same views he has, but they don't come out with it. Is this true?

 

Barak Allahu feekum wa Assaalaamu aleykum

bismillah.gif.441f6334849dad61f4b767338f

ws2.png.192e19f3b3a6c5a17f6552e7c27349ed

My brother. Congratulations for taking the first step to accept Islam. brother, in no shape or form I am trying to tell you or impose on your my views, in the Holy Quran it says, "there is no compulsion in religion". But to correct you, Abu Hanifa and the other 3 Sunni scholars such as Hanbali, Maliki Shafi'ie were not the early school of thoughts, all 4 of them were the students of Imam Jafa'ar Sadiq a.s., our 6th Holy Imam, you do not see that on Bukhari books. Shia Islam is the original Islam that the last Prophet Mohammad s.a.w left to his successor Imam Ali a.s who was chosen by Allah s.w.t. Imams were chosen by Allah swt, and our 12th Imam is Imam Mehdi a.s., May Allah swt hasten his reappearance soon INSHALLAH, and just like Jesus Christ, he is still alive and will come back soon to guide people of all faiths, including our own misguided Muslims. Let me ask you this, Would you vote for someone whom the last prophet said, "i am the city of knowledge and Ali a.s is its gates". another Hadith that says, "Ali is with truth, and truth is with Ali, they are inseparable" .  When Imam Ali a.s. says: " I know more about parts of heaven then I know more about earth", would you chose him as a 4th Caliph?? My advice to you is, do your own research brother and seek guidance and truth from God Almighty, he will guide you to the path of truth and straight path INSHALLAH. IF you have any questions about Shia Islam, here is a good site: Home.

Wasalam o alaykum Warahmatulah Wabarakato brother.

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Assalaamu aleykum wr wb,

 

unfotunatly i had some private issues and first of all have to take care of my family. I thank everybody for his replies and efforts, inshaAllah i will be back soon so we can pick up our topic again.

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Assalaamu aleykum wa rahmatullah, dear brothers and sisters

now that i´m back on this Forum after almost a year, i´d like to announce that i have chosen the Shia Ithna Ashariyya as the correct way & the true Islam according to Rasulullah (s) & Ahlulbayt (as).

May Allah bless y´all

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3 hours ago, Abd-alHaq said:

Assalaamu aleykum wa rahmatullah, dear brothers and sisters

 

now that i´m back on this Forum after almost a year, i´d like to announce that i have chosen the Shia Ithna Ashariyya as the correct way & the true Islam according to Rasulullah (s) & Ahlulbayt (as).

 

May Allah bless y´all

Mashallah brother, may Allah reward you.

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On 04/04/2016 at 9:31 AM, 12reasons4truth. said:

bismillah.gif.441f6334849dad61f4b767338f

bismillah.gif.441f6334849dad61f4b767338f

ws2.png.192e19f3b3a6c5a17f6552e7c27349ed

My brother. Congratulations for taking the first step to accept Islam. brother, in no shape or form I am trying to tell you or impose on your my views, in the Holy Quran it says, "there is no compulsion in religion". But to correct you, Abu Hanifa and the other 3 Sunni scholars such as Hanbali, Maliki Shafi'ie were not the early school of thoughts, all 4 of them were the students of Imam Jafa'ar Sadiq a.s., our 6th Holy Imam, you do not see that on Bukhari books. Shia Islam is the original Islam that the last Prophet Mohammad s.a.w left to his successor Imam Ali a.s who was chosen by Allah s.w.t. Imams were chosen by Allah swt, and our 12th Imam is Imam Mehdi a.s., May Allah swt hasten his reappearance soon INSHALLAH, and just like Jesus Christ, he is still alive and will come back soon to guide people of all faiths, including our own misguided Muslims. Let me ask you this, Would you vote for someone whom the last prophet said, "i am the city of knowledge and Ali a.s is its gates". another Hadith that says, "Ali is with truth, and truth is with Ali, they are inseparable" .  When Imam Ali a.s. says: " I know more about parts of heaven then I know more about earth", would you chose him as a 4th Caliph?? My advice to you is, do your own research brother and seek guidance and truth from God Almighty, he will guide you to the path of truth and straight path INSHALLAH. IF you have any questions about Shia Islam, here is a good site: Home.

Wasalam o alaykum Warahmatulah Wabarakato brother.

Imam Shafi was the student of Imam Malik, and Imam Ahmad was most definitely not a student of Imam Jafar.

‘Abdullah bin Ahmad has related to us from Abu al-Harth Surayj bin Yunus from Abu Hafs Abbar from Hakam bin ‘Abd al-Malik from Harth bin Hasirah from Abi Sadiq from Rabi‘ah bin Najidh from ‘Ali (RA), who narrates:

The Messenger of Allah (SAW) told me:

"You are like Jesus. The Jews hated him so much that they slandered his mother, and the Christians because of their extreme devotion to him placed him in a position which was not his.”

Then ‘Ali (RA) said: "Two persons [groups] are doomed concerning me; the devoted extremist exalting me to what I am not, and the spiteful hater bearing malice towards me and slandering me."

May Allah guide you all who believe in exaggerations - and fear Allah lest you corrupt His religion with innovations and lies.

Edited by Zamestaneh
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On 3/22/2017 at 7:48 AM, Zamestaneh said:

May Allah guide you all who believe in exaggerations - and fear Allah lest you corrupt His religion with innovations and lies.

This is all nice and fancy, dude. But you understood this Hadith wrong - terribly wrong.

The ones exaggerating Imam Alis (as) status were the Ghulat who attributed deity to him while the ones bearing hatred towards him and envying him were the Nawasib and enemies of Ahlulbayt (as) who are highly loved and respected in the various sects referring to themselves as "Sunni".

Don´t worry - at least you tried, buddy.

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