Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
أبو فاطمة المحمدي

Imamah and Salvation

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

As-Salam 'Alaikum,

In this thread, I want to discuss the centrality of the doctrine of Imamah to the salvation of any Muslim in the Hereafter. Let us start with this Sunni hadith, from Sahih Ibn Hibban:

أخبرنا أبو يعلى قال : حدثنا محمد بن يزيد بن رفاعة قال : حدثنا أبو بكر بن عياش عن عاصم بن أبي النجود عن أبي صالح عن معاوية قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم : ( من مات وليس له إمام مات ميتة جاهلية )

Narrated Mu'awiyah:

The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said: "Whosoever dies without having an Imam, dies a death of Jahiliyyah."

Shaykh al-Arnaut comments on the hadith:

حديث صحيح

A sahih hadith.

Imam Ahmad b. Hanbal has also recorded in his Musnad:

حدثنا عبد الله حدثني أبي ثنا أسود بن عامر انا أبو بكر عن عاصم عن أبي صالح عن معاوية قال قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم : من مات بغير إمام مات ميتة جاهلية

Narrated Mu'awiyah:

The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said: "Whosoever dies without an Imam, dies a death of Jahiliyya."

Again, al-Arnaut says:

حديث صحيح لغيره وهذا إسناد حسن

It is a hadith which is sahih li ghayrih, and this chain is hasan.

And, this is a hasan hadith from al-Kafi, of Shaykh al-Kulayni:

الحسين بن محمد، عن معلى بن محمد، عن الحسن بن علي الوشاء، عن أحمد بن عائذ، عن ابن أذينة، عن الفضيل بن يسار قال: ابتدأنا أبو عبد الله عليه السلام يوما وقال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: من مات وليس عليه إمام فميتته ميتة جاهلية، فقلت: قال ذلك رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله؟ فقال: إي والله قد قال، قلت: فكل من مات وليس له إمام فميتته ميتة جاهلية؟! قال: نعم.

Narrated al-Fudayl b. Yasar:

Abu 'Abd Allah, peace be upon him, started speaking to us one day and said, "The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him and his family, said: 'Whosoever without having an Imam, then his death is a death of Jahiliyyah.'" So, I said, "The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him and his family, said that?" He said, "I swear by Allah, he said it." I said, "So, everyone who dies without having an Imam, his death is a death of Jahiliyyah?" He said, "Yes."

Then, al-Kulayni records another hadith, that has a sahih chain, which explains the reason for this:

عنه، عن هشام بن سالم، عن عبد الحميد بن أبي العلاء قال: دخلت المسجد الحرام فرأيت مولى لأبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) فملت إليه لأسأله عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) فإذا أنا بأبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) ساجدا فانتظرته طويلا فطال سجوده علي، فقمت وصليت ركعات وانصرفت وهو بعد ساجد فسألت مولاه متى سجد؟ فقال: قبل أن تأتينا فلما سمع كلامي رفع رأسه ثم قال: أبا محمد! ادن مني فدنوت منه فسلمت عليه فسمع صوتا خلفه فقال: ما هذه الأصوات المرتفعة؟ فقلت: هؤلاء قوم من المرجئة والقدرية والمعتزلة، فقال: إن القوم يريدوني فقم بنا، فقمت معه فلما أن رأوه نهضوا نحوه فقال لهم: كفوا أنفسكم عني ولا تؤذوني وتعرضوني للسلطان فإني لست بمفت لكم ثم أخذ بيدي و تركهم ومضى فلما خرج من المسجد قال: لي يا أبا محمد والله لو أن إبليس سجد لله عز ذكره بعد المعصية والتكبر عمر الدنيا ما نفعه ذلك ولا قبله الله عز ذكره ما لم يسجد لآدم كما أمره الله عز وجل أن يسجد له وكذلك هذه الأمة العاصية المفتونة بعد نبيها (صلى الله عليه وآله) وبعد تركهم الامام الذي نصبه نبيهم (صلى الله عليه وآله) لهم فلن يقبل الله تبارك وتعالى لهم عملا ولن يرفع لهم حسنة حتى يأتوا الله عز وجل من حيث أمرهم ويتولوا الامام الذي أمروا بولايته ويدخلوا من الباب الذي فتحه الله عز وجل ورسوله لهم، يا أبا محمد إن الله افترض على أمة محمد (صلى الله عليه وآله) خمس فرائض: الصلاة والزكاة والصيام والحج وولايتنا فرخص لهم في أشياء من الفرائض الأربعة (2) ولم يرخص لاحد من المسلمين في ترك ولايتنا لا والله ما فيها رخصة.

... He (Imam al-Sadiq) said to me, "O Abu Muhammad! I swear by Allah, if Iblis had prostrated to Allah, exalted be His Name, after (his) disobedience and arrogance, for a period as long as the length of the existence of this world, that would not benefit him and Allah, exalted be His Name, would not accept it from him as long as he did not prostrate to Adam as Allah, the Almighty, the Most Glorious, commanded him to prostrate to him. This disobedient, infatuated Ummah is like that after their Prophet, peace be upon him and his family, and after their abandonment of the Imam appointed for them by their Prophet, peace be upon him and his family. Therefore, Allah the Most Blessed, the Most High will never accept any (good) deed of theirs, nor will He ever raise up any good deed of theirs until they approach Allah, the Almighty, the Most Glorious, through where He commanded them, and they follow the Imam whose wilayah they are commanded to follow, and they enter through the door opened for them by Allah, the Almighty, the Most Glorious, and His Messenger...."   

Basically, if you do not follow the Imam appointed by Allah and His Messenger, Allah accepts none of your good deeds. This is why, whenever you eventually die, your death is that of Jahiliyyah. You die without having a single good deed before your Creator.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@abu fatimah Wasalaam. 

Again i would like to say, ahadith above hints "imams" (ie; caliphs, leaders, and rulers etc)! No where ahadith are clearly mentioning which 'rulers', and there are spiritual imams too chosen by Allah. So by "not" following which 'imam',  does one dies death of jahiliyya !? Like in shiism presently not following an "invisible" ¹²th imam is kufr ! And sunnis are following other ahadith which hints towards a time when there will be only tyrants, and Ummah will be without any proper "rulership/imamat". And shias are waiting for their "hidden" imam, and following Iranian & Iraqi fallible "rulers/imams" by giving qums ! Its better as 12th imam followers wait and give qums to yours hidden imam as 'true' shias or parcel it like "letters" in river /dam water, have hope in Allah qums "can" too reach like letters, like sun behind the clouds, typically ! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bro I suggest you read 'Fiqh al 'Aqeedah' by Seyyed Kamal al Haydari. There is no Shia concept of salvation. Paradise (that vast place extending the heavens and worlds), is not private property of Shia. 

Don't spread sectarian ideas. If you're going to propose a topic, at least address it from all aspects. There are countless other narrations that clearly indicate salvation of non-Muslims, let alone Sunnis, etc. 

The first mistake you did is go straight to narrations, without establishing this concept Quranically, and quranically, there is no 'Shias are God's chosen people'. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Reader. said:

@abu fatimah Wasalaam. 

Again i would like to say, ahadith above hints "imams" (ie; caliphs, leaders, and rulers etc)! No where ahadith are clearly mentioning which 'rulers', and there are spiritual imams too chosen by Allah. So by "not" following which 'imam',  does one dies death of jahiliyya !? Like in shiism presently not following an "invisible" ¹²th imam is kufr ! And sunnis are following other ahadith which hints towards a time when there will be only tyrants, and Ummah will be without any proper "rulership/imamat". And shias are waiting for their "hidden" imam, and following Iranian & Iraqi fallible "rulers/imams" by giving qums ! Its better as 12th imam followers wait and give qums to yours hidden imam as 'true' shias or parcel it like "letters" in river /dam water, have hope in Allah qums "can" too reach like letters, like sun behind the clouds, typically ! 

Do you have an Imam now? Please answer "Yes" or "No."

4 minutes ago, beardedbaker said:

Bro I suggest you read 'Fiqh al 'Aqeedah' by Seyyed Kamal al Haydari. There is no Shia concept of salvation. Paradise (that vast place extending the heavens and worlds), is not private property of Shia. 

Don't spread sectarian ideas. If you're going to propose a topic, at least address it from all aspects. There are countless other narrations that clearly indicate salvation of non-Muslims, let alone Sunnis, etc

The first mistake you did is go straight to narrations, without establishing this concept Quranically, and quranically, there is no 'Shias are God's chosen people'. 

You prefer the personal opinions of Sayyid Kamal al-Haydari, and reject the mutawatir ahadith of the Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them). Whosoever does not follow the Ahl al-Bayt has no chance of salvation - unless he belongs to the group of mustad'afun. There are mutawatir ahadith to this effect. When a scholar says anything that contradicts the Qur'an or authentic ahadith, his words have zero value in such a case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, beardedbaker said:

Bro I suggest you read 'Fiqh al 'Aqeedah' by Seyyed Kamal al Haydari. There is no Shia concept of salvation. Paradise (that vast place extending the heavens and worlds), is not private property of Shia. 

[sry bro, i don't like shia authors, of course everything belongs to Allah] 

 

Don't spread sectarian ideas. If you're going to propose a topic, at least address it from all aspects. There are countless other narrations that clearly indicate salvation of non-Muslims, let alone Sunnis, etc. 

[Iam not spreading "sectarian" ideas, so plz don't blame me for doing so by "your" point of view]! 

 

The first mistake you did is go straight to narrations, without establishing this concept Quranically, and quranically, there is no 'Shias are God's chosen people'. 

Thanks, but you didn't replied upon imamah ! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Again i would like to say, ahadith above hints "imams" (ie; caliphs, leaders, and rulers etc)! No where ahadith are clearly mentioning which 'rulers', and there are spiritual imams too chosen by Allah. 

It is not that hard to figure out what kind of Imams we are talking about, when the Hadith itself indicate that not having such an Imam, you gonna die as Jahil. Do you think that not choosing your local Imam or not accepting Saudi ruler or Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi makes you die a death of Jahil?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Do you have an Imam now? Please answer "Yes" or "No."

What ! First tell me what i asked, can't the" qums amount" reach 12th imam like "letters" by water ways ! And give his "address" or ask your 'present' imam' about your coming imam, and let me know his invisible "resident, family, children & assistants"! Or you may U-turn in any direction as a 'good' shia. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Reader. said:

What ! First tell me what i asked, can't the" qums amount" reach 12th imam like "letters" by water ways ! And give his "address" or ask your 'present' imam' about your coming imam, and let me know his invisible "resident, family, children & assistants"! Or you may U-turn in any direction as a 'good' shia. 

Sorry I did not understand what you are talking about. And I can guess it has nothing to do with with my statement.

Edited by Dhulfikar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Dhulfikar said:

It is not that hard to figure out what kind of Imams we are talking about, when the Hadith itself indicate that not having such an Imam, you gonna die as Jahil. Do you think that not choosing your local Imam or not accepting Saudi ruler or Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi makes you die a death of Jahil?

MashaAllah zaheen hummm, read my full post, as i mentioned there will come a 'time' Ummah will be without imam /leader, and their will be "tyrants" ruling unjustly, as per some ahadith foretold by Prophet s.a.w ! So no "point" of "jahiliyya" is there. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

as i mentioned there will come a 'time' Ummah will be without imam /leader, and their will be "tyrants" ruling unjustly,

Yeah, that's why "Whosoever dies without having an Imam, dies a death of Jahiliyyah." is in hold right now. Nice contradiction.

As for verifying such an nice contradiction, is it possible for you to post the hadith of there will be time without Imam?

Edited by Dhulfikar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Dhulfikar said:

Sorry I did not understand what you are talking about. And I can guess it has nothing to do with with my statement.

Firstly bcoz your "not" Abu fatimah al ! And secondly congratulations you takes a nice "u-turn" as i said, like a "good shia"! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Reader. said:

Firstly bcoz your "not" Abu fatimah al !

You speak in such an language that only Abu Fatimah understand?

Quote

And secondly congratulations you takes a nice "u-turn" as i said, like a "good shia"! 

What?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Dhulfikar said:

Yeah, that's why "Whosoever dies without having an Imam, dies a death of Jahiliyyah." is in hold right now. Nice contradiction.

As for verifying such an nice contradiction, is it possible for you to post the hadith of there will be time without Imam?

You may proceed by Googling too, bunch of ahadith are there, and after all bro "burden" is upon you ! 

Will catch you, time for rest. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

You may proceed by Googling too, bunch of ahadith are there, and after all bro "burden" is upon you !

Your claim: " And sunnis are following other ahadith which hints towards a time when there will be only tyrants, and Ummah will be without any proper "rulership/imamat"

We ask for you for proof and verification of your own statement. How can it be our burden?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hadith Silsilat al-Dhahab (Golden Chain)3 in Neyshabur

People of Neyshabur were eagerly looking forward to seeing Imam al-Ridha (as). At his arrival they asked him to stay on for a while longer so they could better see the charming and dignified countenance of the Prophet (S)'s grandson. Having dressed quite simply, the holy Imam (as) stood before the people.

Upon seeing the Imam (as), those people let out a cheerful chanting. When Imam al-Ridha (as) began to speak, two of the hadith memorizers named Abudhar‘a and Muhammad b. Aslam bade people to keep silent, and restated the graceful and elegant words of the holy Imam (as) loudly enough for all to hear. Imam al-Ridha (as) expressed a hadith regarding the unity and oneness of the Exalted Allah as follows:

“The statement La illaha illa Allah is My strong fortress, whoever says it will enter this fortress, and if he enters it, he will be safeguarded from the punishment of the Judgment Day.” And then, when his retinue were about to set off, he looked out of the camel litter. People found out that the Imam (as) intended to say something. Once again silence prevailed, and then Imam al-Ridha (as) concluded the above hadith by the following words:

But yet on some conditions, and I am one of the conditions”.

By this Divine Hadith,4 the holy Imam (as) intended to state three points:

Firstly, by naming his ancestors who had each quoted the hadith from the previous ones back to the Holy Prophet (S) who had himself heard it through the trusted Gabriel from the Exalted Lord, he could remind people of his honorable ancestors who were all Shi‘ite Imams and rightful Caliphs of the true path.

Secondly, to remind people of monotheism and theology, which are the cornerstones of all beliefs and contentions to avert them from getting duped by illegitimate rulers, taghuts, and the tyrannical bullies.

Thirdly, real and non-idolatrous monotheism and theology free from hypocrisy requires and accompanies theWilayat of Ahl al-Bayt (as), and that unless a just leadership is not set up in the Muslims' community, the idols and pseudo-idols and the illegitimate rulers will not allow Divine Unity turn in the right path.

Historically, it is recorded that when writing down this hadith, the eager people were so prepared that they had in their disposal 24 thousand pen-holders to be used in writing the precious words of the Holy Prophet (S)'s descendent.5

http://www.al-islam.org/fourteen-luminaries-islam-ahmad-ahmadi-birjandi/tenth-infallible-hadhrat-imam-ali-b-musa-al-ridha#hadith-silsilat-al-dhahab-neyshabur

Edited by S.M.H.A.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

The Sunnis/Salafis I debated in the past, say the Leader means Mohammad [pbuh&hf]. They say he is the leader for the whole world from then till the end of time.

Well according to their sahih hadiths It does not mean Prophet Muhammad (saws), but as fallibles leaders who leads the Ummah. They also do believe that it is not applicable for right now because they do not have "right" Imam. But then 1. It contradict the OP hadith. 2. It contradict the following Qur'an Verse:

[Quran: 17:71] (Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.

So now the question arise, if a person believe that we don't have an Imam right now, how do you explain 17:71?

Now then they have this sahih hadith for support;

The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said: I said: Messenger of Allah, what do you suggest if I happen to live in that time? He said: You should stick to the main body of the Muslims and their Imam(leader). I said: If they have no (such thing as the) main body and have no Imam(leader)? He said: Separate yourself from all these factions, though you may have to eat the roots of trees (in a jungle) until death comes to you and you are in this state.(Sahi Muslim Bk 20, Number 4553)
 

But how can you support this hadith when it contradict the Qu'ran itself, where it says We will call every people with their Imam? Sunnis just can't throw these hadith out, they just make an exuses.

Edited by Dhulfikar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Means that they do not consider all the hadith mentioned in above referenced post as Authentic, or Some how are Agnostic in terms of their meanings.

And have a different understanding of the these Qur’anic verses

[Qur’an 5:3]..... This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam. ….
 

[Qur’an 5:67] O Messenger! Make known that which hath been revealed unto thee from thy Lord, for if thou do it not, thou wilt not have conveyed His message. Allah will protect thee from mankind. Lo! Allah guideth not the disbelieving folk.

What ever this Important message is, it will meet with hostility from the people in the past and today. Shirk is to not have faith in Allah[awj] promise and support.

Are we  inserting general salvation offered to the ones without Knowledge /or not able to comprehend after best efforts -of the Prophethood of the last Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp] and Wilayat? VS. People who willfully denied and made best effort to actively overturn it by their actions- the Message at Ghadir Khumm and are still denying it today ?

Why is talking about the Truth in an academic manner - needs to be countered with a Unity or Sectarianism card? More importantly, why are we even entertaining it and accepting it and shying away from pointing to the Truth/Facts because someone will blame us or brand us as anti-unity or sectarian?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Reader. said:

What ! First tell me what i asked, can't the" qums amount" reach 12th imam like "letters" by water ways ! And give his "address" or ask your 'present' imam' about your coming imam, and let me know his invisible "resident, family, children & assistants"! Or you may U-turn in any direction as a 'good' shia. 

Do you have an Imam or not?

9 hours ago, Reader. said:

MashaAllah zaheen hummm, read my full post, as i mentioned there will come a 'time' Ummah will be without imam /leader, and their will be "tyrants" ruling unjustly, as per some ahadith foretold by Prophet s.a.w ! So no "point" of "jahiliyya" is there. 

According to the Qur'an, there is always an Imam on the earth (13:7):

إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُنذِرٌ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ

You are only a warner, and there is a guide for every people

Also, according to the Qur'an, there can never be an unjust Imam 2:124):

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا قَالَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِي قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

And when his Lord tested Abraham with certain words, and he fulfilled them, He said, ‘I am making you the Imam of mankind.’ Said he, ‘And from among my descendants?’ He said, ‘My pledge does not extend to the unjust.’

9 hours ago, Reader. said:

You may proceed by Googling too, bunch of ahadith are there, and after all bro "burden" is upon you ! 

Will catch you, time for rest. 

You mentioned the existence of some fabricated Sunni ahadith. Yet, the burden is upon us to find them for you. What are you smoking?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Assalaamu aleykum wa rahmatullah,

sorry for popping into your discussion, but I have to get this clear (fear I don't have the time to read Sheikh al-Haydais book at the moment): does the 12er madhab really say, that also non-Muslims will go to Jannah? Never heard that before, to be honest. I thought the Ayas mentioning Ahlul Kitab and others being rewarded in akhira applies only to those who were before Rasulullah saws or didn't recieve the message of islam. I'm not a scholar, but wouldn't this view contradict the Ayah that says "Whoever chooses a Deen other than Islam, it won't be accepted from him?"

And why should anybody become Muslim if also the Non-Believer is saved if he's a good person and believes in One God? What if he says, the Prophet saws is a liar and the Quran is false, n`audhubillah?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Abd-alHaq said:

Assalaamu aleykum wa rahmatullah,

sorry for popping into your discussion, but I have to get this clear (fear I don't have the time to read Sheikh al-Haydais book at the moment): does the 12er madhab really say, that also non-Muslims will go to Jannah? Never heard that before, to be honest. I thought the Ayas mentioning Ahlul Kitab and others being rewarded in akhira applies only to those who were before Rasulullah saws or didn't recieve the message of islam. I'm not a scholar, but wouldn't this view contradict the Ayah that says "Whoever chooses a Deen other than Islam, it won't be accepted from him?"

And why should anybody become Muslim if also the Non-Believer is saved if he's a good person and believes in One God? What if he says, the Prophet saws is a liar and the Quran is false, n`audhubillah?

Any human being who hears about Islam or Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) and has means of researching about him but chooses not to do that, he is doomed forever in the Hereafter if he does not die a Muslim.

Any Muslim who hears about the Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them) or Hadith al-Thaqalayn, and has means of researching about them but chooses not to do that, he is doomed forever in the Hereafter if he does not die a Shi'i Ithna 'Ashari.

There is a third category. They are people who have never heard about Islam or Prophet Muhammad, and have no means of finding out or researching about them, such people are called mustad'afun. If they are good human beings, they have hope in the Hereafter.

The fourth category are Muslims who have never heard about the Ahl al-Bayt or Hadith al-Thaqalayn, and have no means of finding out or researching about them, such people are also called mustad'afun. If they are good Muslims, they have hope in the Hereafter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, thank you for making this clear. By the way, it seems like i get no salaams back in this forum. Kinda sad, but it's up to you. So, we seem to habe a difference of opinion here as what brother saied on The authority of a well-known scholar, that there is a chance of reaching paradise for all people ans another brother applying jannah only to 'Ithna Ashariya. So acording to the second opinion, Zaidi Shia also go hell even if they accept ans defend Hadith ath-Thaqalayn ans other proofs for the supiriority of Ahlul Bayt ans they make khuruj for the Ahlul Bayt?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Abd-alHaq said:

Ok, thank you for making this clear. By the way, it seems like i get no salaams back in this forum. Kinda sad, but it's up to you. So, we seem to habe a difference of opinion here as what brother saied on The authority of a well-known scholar, that there is a chance of reaching paradise for all people ans another brother applying jannah only to 'Ithna Ashariya. So acording to the second opinion, Zaidi Shia also go hell even if they accept ans defend Hadith ath-Thaqalayn ans other proofs for the supiriority of Ahlul Bayt ans they make khuruj for the Ahlul Bayt?

Anyone who dies while knowingly rejecting any of the Twelve Imams (peace be upon them) has no hope of salvation. The point is clear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Do you have an Imam now? Please answer "Yes" or "No."

The Quran is the Imam according to this verse:

Verily, We give life to the dead, and We record that which they send before (them), and their traces and all things We have recorded with numbers (as a record) in a Clear Book.

Sura Yasin: 12

Edited by Sunnibro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Sunnibro said:

The Quran is the Imam according to this verse:

Verily, We give life to the dead, and We record that which they send before (them), and their traces and all things We have recorded with numbers (as a record) in a Clear Book.

Sura Yasin: 12

The Qur'an is an Imam. There is absolutely no doubt about that. Meanwhile, the Qur'an also mentions the existence of other Imams in addition to itself (13:7):

إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُنذِرٌ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ

You are only a warner, and there is a guide for every people

Edited by أبو فاطمة المحمدي

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

شَهْرُ رَمَضَانَ الَّذِي أُنْزِلَ فِيهِ الْقُرْآنُ هُدًى لِلنَّاسِ وَبَيِّنَاتٍ مِنَ الْهُدَىٰ وَالْفُرْقَانِ ۚ فَمَنْ شَهِدَ مِنْكُمُ الشَّهْرَ فَلْيَصُمْهُ ۖ وَمَنْ كَانَ مَرِيضًا أَوْ عَلَىٰ سَفَرٍ فَعِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَيَّامٍ أُخَرَ ۗ يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ بِكُمُ الْيُسْرَ وَلَا يُرِيدُ بِكُمُ الْعُسْرَ وَلِتُكْمِلُوا الْعِدَّةَ وَلِتُكَبِّرُوا اللَّهَ عَلَىٰ مَا هَدَاكُمْ وَلَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ {185}


[Pickthal 2:185] The month of Ramadan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for mankind, and clear proofs of the guidance, and the Criterion (of right and wrong). And whosoever of you is present, let him fast the month, and whosoever of you is sick or on a journey, (let him fast the same) number of other days. Allah desireth for you ease; He desireth not hardship for you; and (He desireth) that ye should complete the period, and that ye should magnify Allah for having guided you, and that peradventure ye may be thankful.
 

*****

[Shakir 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.
[Pickthal 3:7] He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.
[Yusufali 3:7] He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

*****

ذَٰلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لَا رَيْبَ ۛ فِيهِ ۛ هُدًى لِلْمُتَّقِينَ {2}

[Shakir 2:2] This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
[Pickthal 2:2] This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil).
[Yusufali 2:2] This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;

2:185 is the General Message/Guidance to the World/Mankind.

2:2 says its --- In it, is Guidance to Muttaqeen.

Amir al-Muminin(Commander of the Faithful), Imam al-Muttaqeen(Leader of the Pious), Hujjah of Allah(awj)(Proof of Allah(awj), Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib(as).

 

Edited by S.M.H.A.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

The Qur'an is an Imam. There is absolutely no doubt about that. Meanwhile, the Qur'an also mentions the existence of other Imams in addition to itself (13:7):

إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُنذِرٌ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ

You are only a warner, and there is a guide for every people

Why is Quran not sufficient to be the guide for every people?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Sunnibro said:

Why is Quran not sufficient to be the guide for every people?

Hadith al-Thaqalayn

The Quran is the divine revelation while the Ahl al-Bayt are the transmitters of the divine interpretation.

Edited by Talut

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sunnibro said:

Why is Quran not sufficient to be the guide for every people?

The Qur'an itself answers (7:181):

وَمِمَّنْ خَلَقْنَا أُمَّةٌ يَهْدُونَ بِالْحَقِّ وَبِهِ يَعْدِلُونَ

And of those whom We have created are a people who guide with the truth and thereby they do justice.

So, there are people in the Ummah who guide others with the Truth. If the Qur'an only had been sufficient for us, these people would never have existed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

إِنَّ إِبْرَاهِيمَ كَانَ أُمَّةً قَانِتًا لِّلَّهِ حَنِيفًا وَلَمْ يَكُ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ
 Indeed, Abraham was a [comprehensive] leader, devoutly obedient to Allah , inclining toward truth, and he was not of those who associate others with Allah . (16:120)

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ
And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers." (2:124)

7 hours ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

The Qur'an itself answers (7:181):

وَمِمَّنْ خَلَقْنَا أُمَّةٌ يَهْدُونَ بِالْحَقِّ وَبِهِ يَعْدِلُونَ

And of those whom We have created are a people who guide with the truth and thereby they do justice.

So, there are people in the Ummah who guide others with the Truth. If the Qur'an only had been sufficient for us, these people would never have existed.

1- ibrahim AS is addressed as Ummat / Leader

2. Ibrahim AS was chosen as Imam / Leader

3. Similarly there is a group of people / ummat / leaders who guides with the truth.

Wassalam 

Edited by skamran110

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎3‎/‎31‎/‎2016 at 2:36 PM, beardedbaker said:

Bro I suggest you read 'Fiqh al 'Aqeedah' by Seyyed Kamal al Haydari. There is no Shia concept of salvation. Paradise (that vast place extending the heavens and worlds), is not private property of Shia. 

Don't spread sectarian ideas. If you're going to propose a topic, at least address it from all aspects. There are countless other narrations that clearly indicate salvation of non-Muslims, let alone Sunnis, etc. 

The first mistake you did is go straight to narrations, without establishing this concept Quranically, and quranically, there is no 'Shias are God's chosen people'. 

bismillah.gif.750995fb0fc4e08cf7ba654591

In the Quran, Surah Baqara (Chapter of the Cow), Ayah (verse) 255 is very beautiful and special and is given this title: “verse of the throne”.

[2.255] Allah – there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. His Knowledge [throne] extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Most Great.

 

 

 

Quranic verses that prove the necessity of following the path of Ahlul Bayt (a.s.).

Allah Almighty says:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُوْلِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ذَلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا.

O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those in authority (Ulil Amr) from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end. (Sura Nisa 4:59)

And He says:

وَإِذَا جَاءَهُمْ أَمْرٌ مِنَ الْأَمْنِ أَوْ الْخَوْفِ أَذَاعُوا بِهِ وَلَوْ رَدُّوهُ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ وَإِلَى أُوْلِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْهُمْ لَعَلِمَهُ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَنْبِطُونَهُ مِنْهُمْ وَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَتُهُ لَاتَّبَعْتُمْ الشَّيْطَانَ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا.

And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Apostle and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it... (Sura Nisa :83)

And:

أَمْ يَحْسُدُونَ النَّاسَ عَلَى مَا آتَاهُمْ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ فَقَدْ آتَيْنَا آلَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَآتَيْنَاهُمْ مُلْكًا عَظِيمًا.فَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ آمَنَ بِهِ وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ صَدَّ عَنْهُ وَكَفَى بِجَهَنَّمَ سَعِيرًا.

Or do they envy the people for what Allah has given them of His grace? But indeed We have given to Ibrahim’s children the Book and the wisdom, and We have given them a grand kingdom. So of them is he who believes in him, and of them is he who turns away from him, and hell is sufficient to burn. (Sura Nisa 4:54-55)

We should know that Commentators have differed in explaining Ulil Amr. From the Ahle Sunnat commentators, some have said that they are chiefs and commanders of army and kings, and again some of them have also said that Ulil Amr means the learned of the Ummat. Imamite scholars are unanimous that they are the Imams of Aale Muhammad (a.s.).

On the basis of narrations which will be mentioned henceforth Ulil Amr is one who has authority in affairs and there is no limit to this. It means that he should possess authority in all the affairs of religion and the world and so he can be only the Imam. If a person has authority only in one matter his obedience would be obligatory only in that matter and one who has absolute authority in all affairs only he would be the person whose obedience is absolute and only he is the Imam.

To mention the Messenger and Ulil Amr by only one word ‘obey’ means that the position of the Imam is similar to that of the Prophet. Rather, just as Prophethood is from Allah (promulgated) through the angel so is really, the Imamate is an appointment through the Prophet and only because of this the observance of the Imam is like obedience of the Prophet. This is why the word ‘obey’ has not been used between ‘Rasool’ and ‘Ulil Amr’. Contrary to it, though the rank of Prophethood is a very high rank, it is not similar to the rank of divinity. The word ‘obey’ between ‘Allah’ and ‘Rasool’ points towards this.

When Allah Himself has joined the obedience of this group with the obedience of Himself and of His Prophet, then doubtlessly a group must have been appointed by them (Allah and the Prophet) whose command (Amr) would be the Amr of Allah and His Prophet so that their obedience may join with the obedience of Allah and His Prophet.

Otherwise it will be construed that the obedience of oppressive and cruel kings like the king of Byzantine will be called (and understood) the obedience of Ulil Amr, which is like obedience of Allah and His messenger. The ugliness of this is not hidden from my wise person. As Shaykh Tabarsi has said: it is not possible that Allah the All-wise can permit the absolute obedience of a person except that of a person whose obedience be proved.

Allah knows that man’s internal condition is just like his outward appearance and about him He may be satisfied that he will neither commit any mistake nor will do any ugly deed and these virtues are not possessed by scholars and rulers except the Infallible Imams. Allah can never command the obedience of any person who may disobey Him and may order the obedience of a group whose deeds may be different from their words because the obedience of the differing group is impossible just as their agreement on a matter in which they have differed.

One of all the proofs which we have given is this one also that Allah Almighty has made the obedience of His Messenger, His obedience because the Ulil Amr are higher than the entire creation just as the Messenger is higher than the Ulil Amr and the entire creation and this virtue is in the Imams from Aale Muhammad whose Imamate and infallibility has been proved and the Ummah has unanimously agreed on their high ranks and their justice.

Then if you quarrel about anything then submit that difference or dispute to the Book of Allah and Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (S). And we Shias say that, after the passing away of the Holy Prophet (S) turn towards the Imams who are the vicegerents of the Prophet. Turning towards them (for guidance) is like it was to seek guidance from the Holy Prophet (S) during his lifetime, because they are the protectors of the Hazrat and his Caliphs in the Ummah. Here ends the words of Tabarsi.

In the first part of the verse there was the mention of Ulil Amr but, at the end of the verse, due to the prevalent recitation (mode of reading), they are not mentioned and only the point stated by Tabarsi has been mentioned. It may be to point out that any disagreement or dispute regarding Imamate should also be referred to the Book and the Sunnah.

Therefore the Imam must be nominated by Allah and His Prophet, not in the way adopted by the opponents, who believe that Imamate should be based on consensus and think that the appointment of an Imam is by the Imam, but it is mentioned in some traditions that in the Qirat (recitation) of Ahle bayt (a.s.) there was Ulil Amr at the end as Ali Ibne Ibrahim has said that Ulil Amr means Amirul Momineen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/2/2016 at 5:06 PM, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

The Qur'an itself answers (7:181):

وَمِمَّنْ خَلَقْنَا أُمَّةٌ يَهْدُونَ بِالْحَقِّ وَبِهِ يَعْدِلُونَ

And of those whom We have created are a people who guide with the truth and thereby they do justice.

So, there are people in the Ummah who guide others with the Truth. If the Qur'an only had been sufficient for us, these people would never have existed.

Fine. It can be said that these people are the prophets and the messengers sent by Allah. Our holy Prophet (saw) was sent to us with the truth. however the Quran does nto mention anywhere regarding the 12 Imams. So why should salvation of somebody depend on something that does not exists within the quran?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1-  The quran does not mention any where that Our Prophet is the Seal of Imams. (Rather he is seal of the prophets)

2-  The quran does not mention in the quoted verses that there WAS a leader for guiding the people or there WERE the people who guided with the truth rather the PRESENT tense has been used.

There are sufficient evidences for the mindful ones duly supported by the hadith for Imams from Ahl albayat.

 

Edited by skamran110

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...