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أبو فاطمة المحمدي

Imamah and Salvation

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44 minutes ago, Sunnibro said:

Fine. It can be said that these people are the prophets and the messengers sent by Allah. Our holy Prophet (saw) was sent to us with the truth. however the Quran does nto mention anywhere regarding the 12 Imams.

Look at the verse again:

وَمِمَّنْ خَلَقْنَا أُمَّةٌ يَهْدُونَ بِالْحَقِّ وَبِهِ يَعْدِلُونَ

And of those whom We have created are a people who guide with the truth and thereby they do justice.

The verbs in the Arabic are in the present continuous tense. If the ayah had been about the prophets and messengers, the verbs would have been in the past tense.

Quote

So why should salvation of somebody depend on something that does not exists within the quran?

This is only a matter of interpretation.

There are lots of verses about the Twelve Imams (peace be upon them). But, you are free to disagree with our interpretation of the Qur'an.

In any case, what do you think about Prophet Yusha' (peace be upon him). What is your view of anyone who explicitly denies his nubuwwah?

Edited by أبو فاطمة المحمدي

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The Concept of Imamat/Waliyat is in the Quran- one of the verse is 

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ {124}

[Pickthal 2:124] And (remember) when his Lord tried Abraham with (His) commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: Lo! I have appointed thee a leader for mankind. (Abraham) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said: My covenant includeth not wrong-doers.

*****

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ {55}

[Pickthal 5:55] Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poordue, and bow down (in prayer).

وَمَنْ يَتَوَلَّ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا فَإِنَّ حِزْبَ اللَّهِ هُمُ الْغَالِبُونَ {56}

[Pickthal 5:56] And whoso taketh Allah and His messenger and those who believe for guardian (will know that), lo! the party of Allah, they are the victorious.

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On 01/04/2016 at 1:10 PM, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

 

According to the Qur'an, there is always an Imam on the earth (13:7):

إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُنذِرٌ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ

You are only a warner, and there is a guide for every people

Also, according to the Qur'an, there can never be an unjust Imam 2:124):

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا قَالَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِي قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

And when his Lord tested Abraham with certain words, and he fulfilled them, He said, ‘I am making you the Imam of mankind.’ Said he, ‘And from among my descendants?’ He said, ‘My pledge does not extend to the unjust.’

[first of all you twisted verses of Quran to maintain your imamah in an well known old trick of "shiism"!] 

Ok, so let's take this verses of Quran for imamah, then thats what iam asking you, where is your present "imam" and what is his "mode" of guiding for shias !? As he is  not only created for shias "alone" but for all "humanity", according to your aqa'id ! Then can I get any trace of him, so that i can become his shia (battalion or gang member) ! But i will not give qums to any "fallible" person after tracking him. 

Thanks in advance 

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وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ {124}

[Pickthal 2:124] And (remember) when his Lord tried Abraham with (His) commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: Lo! I have appointed thee a leader for mankind. (Abraham) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said: My covenant includeth not wrong-doers.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:124]

Zalim (unjust) in the view of the Quran, is he who worships, or has worshipped a ghayrallah. Shirk (idolatry) in the words of the Quran is the greatest zulm or injustice. Therefore he who, at any time in his life, has been a mushrik (idolater) can never be an Imam. Besides the Holy Prophet there was no one, among his companions, who had not been an idol-worshipper, save his cousin, Ali ibna abi Talib, who alone could be rightfully chosen by providence "to receive the covenant of imamat". The Holy Prophet, therefore, under the command of Allah transferred the imamat to Ali, and after Ali to the eleven Imams in the progeny of Muhammad and Ali. In this way the covenant of Allah with Ibrahim was fulfilled, and in the progeny of Isma-il the twelve princes, the twelve holy Imams, were born..."

*****

Narrated Abu Sarihah, or Zaid bin Arqam - Shu'bah had doubt:

from the Prophet (ﷺ): "For whomever I am his Mawla then 'Ali is his Mawla."

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ بَشَّارٍ، حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ، حَدَّثَنَا شُعْبَةُ، عَنْ سَلَمَةَ بْنِ كُهَيْلٍ، قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبَا الطُّفَيْلِ، يُحَدِّثُ عَنْ أَبِي سَرِيْحَةَ، أَوْ زَيْدِ بْنِ أَرْقَمَ شَكَّ شُعْبَةُ - عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ مَنْ كُنْتُ مَوْلاَهُ فَعَلِيٌّ مَوْلاَهُ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو عِيسَى هَذَا حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ صَحِيحٌ غَرِيبٌ ‏.‏ وَقَدْ رَوَى شُعْبَةُ هَذَا الْحَدِيثَ عَنْ مَيْمُونٍ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ عَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ أَرْقَمَ عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏.‏ وَأَبُو سَرِيحَةَ هُوَ حُذَيْفَةُ بْنُ أَسِيدٍ الْغِفَارِيُّ صَاحِبُ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏.‏

Grade: Sahih (Darussalam)

English reference : Vol. 1, Book 46, Hadith 3713

Arabic reference : Book 49, Hadith 4078

http://sunnah.com/urn/635920

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6 hours ago, Reader. said:

Ok, so let's take this verses of Quran for imamah, then thats what iam asking you, where is your present "imam" and what is his "mode" of guiding for shias !? As he is  not only created for shias "alone" but for all "humanity", according to your aqa'id ! Then can I get any trace of him, so that i can become his shia (battalion or gang member) ! But i will not give qums to any "fallible" person after tracking him. 

Thanks in advance 

That is not the starting point. The starting point is the ayah itself (13:7):

إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُنذِرٌ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ

You are only a warner, and there is a guide for every people

Do you believe this verse? If yes, what does it mean according to you? If you agree with the verse that there is a guide for every people, could you tell us the names of some of these guides? If you have a different understanding of the verse, tell us what it is, and how it applies to you personally.

That is how a reasonable discussion is conducted.

When you deal with the queries above, then we can move to the question about Imam al-Hujjah (ajfs).

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4 hours ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

That is not the starting point. The starting point is the ayah itself (13:7):

إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُنذِرٌ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ

You are only a warner, and there is a guide for every people

Do you believe this verse? If yes, what does it mean according to you? If you agree with the verse that there is a guide for every people, could you tell us the names of some of these guides? If you have a different understanding of the verse, tell us what it is, and how it applies to you personally.

That is how a reasonable discussion is conducted.

When you deal with the queries above, then we can move to the question about Imam al-Hujjah (ajfs).

:bismillah:

Indeed, [O Muhammad], you do not guide whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He is most knowing of the [rightly] guided. (28:56)

And those who strive for Us - We will surely guide them to Our ways. And indeed, Allah is with the doers of good. (26:69)

But those who wrong follow their [own] desires without knowledge. Then who can guide one whom Allah has sent astray? And for them there are no helpers. (30:29)

The means with which guidance of Allah S.W.T. comes to people is revelation. 

"Alif, Lam, Meem.

 This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah " (2:1:2)

And We certainly gave Moses the Scripture, so do not be in doubt over his meeting. And we made the Torah guidance for the Children of Israel. (32:23)

"And We had certainly given Moses guidance, and We caused the Children of Israel to inherit the Scripture.

As guidance and a reminder for those of understanding." 40:53:54)

Allah has sent down the best statement: a consistent Book wherein is reiteration. The skins shiver therefrom of those who fear their Lord; then their skins and their hearts relax at the remembrance of Allah. That is the guidance of Allah by which He guides whom He wills. And one whom Allah leaves astray - for him there is no guide. (39:23) 

 

I find it amazing that you would overwrite the message of the Quran on salvation using a hadith. I was planing on quoting a few, but i realize that your interest is solely the fortification of your own ideas and opinions. More amazing is the fact that you open a thread about salvation and completely neglect the verses about salvation from the Quran, even though it is filled with them, clear verses, from beginning to the end. And even when someone tells you the opinion of scholars and ulama contrary to yours, you dismiss it and assume for yourself the position of "tawatur" and ijma'a of Ahle Bayt a.s. from two hadiths and a hadith from muawiya. La Hawla wa la Kuwatta ila Bilah. 

Edited by colargol

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6 minutes ago, colargol said:

I find it amazing that you would overwrite the message of the Quran on salvation using a hadith. I was planing on quoting a few, but i realize that your interest is solely the fortification of your own ideas and opinions. More amazing is the fact that you open a thread about salvation and completely neglect the verses about salvation from the Quran, even though it is filled with them, clear verses, from beginning to the end. And even when someone tells you the opinion of scholars and ulama contrary to yours, you dismiss it and assume for yourself the position of "tawatur" and ijma'a of Ahle Bayt a.s. from two hadiths and a hadith from muawiya. La Hawla wa la Kuwatta ila Bilah. 

I know you are trying to award free guidance to people as you like. So, I have a few questions for you:

1. Do you believe that a person is rightly guided if he follows the Qur'an alone, and does not follow the Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them)?

2. Do you believe that a person is rightly guided if he follows the Ahl al-Bayt alone, and does not follow the Qur'an?

Please provide direct, explicit answers to both questions.

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16 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

I know you are trying to award free guidance to people as you like. So, I have a few questions for you:

1. Do you believe that a person is rightly guided if he follows the Qur'an alone, and does not follow the Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them)?

2. Do you believe that a person is rightly guided if he follows the Ahl al-Bayt alone, and does not follow the Qur'an?

Please provide direct, explicit answers to both questions.

 

I will answer your questions despite you neglecting my post.

1) A person is rightly guided if they do not follow Ahle Bayt a.s. and they follow the Quran. They believe in Allah S.W.T. His Prophets a.s., His Angels, His Revelation and the Day of Judgment. 

2) A person is not guided if they follow Ahle Bayt a.s. only and not the Quran.

Hadith alThaqalayn does not give you a right to neglect the Quranic message in favor of sayings of Imams a.s. that may or may not be true, and are measured by people as to their authenticity. Nor gives you the right to make them equal weights, after The Holy Prophet s.a.w.a. has distinguished them first then joined them together.

The difference between you and me, is that you think guidance is a membership contract whereas i think it is maqams, stages. You believe that guidance is a right on you to stick your fingers in people's eyes and i believe guidance prevents you from just that.

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On 04/04/2016 at 8:43 AM, 12reasons4truth. said:

bismillah.gif.750995fb0fc4e08cf7ba654591

In the Quran, Surah Baqara (Chapter of the Cow), Ayah (verse) 255 is very beautiful and special and is given this title: “verse of the throne”.

[2.255] Allah – there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. His Knowledge [throne] extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Most Great.

 

 

 

Quranic verses that prove the necessity of following the path of Ahlul Bayt (a.s.).

Allah Almighty says:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُوْلِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ذَلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا.

O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those in authority (Ulil Amr) from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end. (Sura Nisa 4:59)

And He says:

وَإِذَا جَاءَهُمْ أَمْرٌ مِنَ الْأَمْنِ أَوْ الْخَوْفِ أَذَاعُوا بِهِ وَلَوْ رَدُّوهُ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ وَإِلَى أُوْلِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْهُمْ لَعَلِمَهُ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَنْبِطُونَهُ مِنْهُمْ وَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَتُهُ لَاتَّبَعْتُمْ الشَّيْطَانَ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا.

And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Apostle and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it... (Sura Nisa :83)

And:

أَمْ يَحْسُدُونَ النَّاسَ عَلَى مَا آتَاهُمْ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ فَقَدْ آتَيْنَا آلَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَآتَيْنَاهُمْ مُلْكًا عَظِيمًا.فَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ آمَنَ بِهِ وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ صَدَّ عَنْهُ وَكَفَى بِجَهَنَّمَ سَعِيرًا.

Or do they envy the people for what Allah has given them of His grace? But indeed We have given to Ibrahim’s children the Book and the wisdom, and We have given them a grand kingdom. So of them is he who believes in him, and of them is he who turns away from him, and hell is sufficient to burn. (Sura Nisa 4:54-55)

 

are you trying to convert me to Shi'ism bro? you're preaching to the converted, and that's the problem. you can't use these arguments on a concept that's not a necessity of faith, hence cannot be used to condemn people to hell. Imamah is a necessity of the Shi'i sect, and to those who first-hand witnessed the Holy Prophet's designation of the leadership mentioned in the verses above to Imam Ali (as). 

 

ws 

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4 hours ago, colargol said:

I will answer your questions despite you neglecting my post.

1) A person is rightly guided if they do not follow Ahle Bayt a.s. and they follow the Quran. They believe in Allah S.W.T. His Prophets a.s., His Angels, His Revelation and the Day of Judgment.

Here, it seems you disagree with the Prophet's statement in Hadith al-Thaqalayn?

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57 minutes ago, beardedbaker said:

are you trying to convert me to Shi'ism bro? you're preaching to the converted, and that's the problem. you can't use these arguments on a concept that's not a necessity of faith, hence cannot be used to condemn people to hell. Imamah is a necessity of the Shi'i sect, and to those who first-hand witnessed the Holy Prophet's designation of the leadership mentioned in the verses above to Imam Ali (as). 

 

 

bismillah.gif.dabfcbca2da651cd3be3f65b64

First of all, ASALAM O ALAYKUM WARAHMATULLAH WA BARAKATO. Second, there is no such a thing as Shiais, and 3rd, why would I try to impose my religion on you, or as you said it, why would I want to convert you to Shia Islam?  I could care less what you believe in, whether you are a Sunni or a Christian or an atheist. Last but not least, my reply was in response to your comment that you said Imams can not intercede for us or similar thing, I am actually too tired and sleepy right now to find your exact post.

Wasalam.

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On 05/04/2016 at 8:44 AM, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

That is not the starting point. The starting point is the ayah itself (13:7):

إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُنذِرٌ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ

You are only a warner, and there is a guide for every people

Do you believe this verse? If yes, what does it mean according to you? If you agree with the verse that there is a guide for every people, could you tell us the names of some of these guides? If you have a different understanding of the verse, tell us what it is, and how it applies to you personally.

That is how a reasonable discussion is conducted.

When you deal with the queries above, then we can move to the question about Imam al-Hujjah (ajfs).

 

On 05/04/2016 at 8:44 AM, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

That is not the starting point. The starting point is the ayah itself (13:7):

 

[ofcourse, its not starting point for "sunnis" but for "shias", bcoz imamah is basic pillar of shiism without believing in it shiism can't "stand !] 

 

إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُنذِرٌ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ

You are only a warner, and there is a guide for every people

Do you believe this verse? If yes, what does it mean according to you? If you agree with the verse that there is a guide for every people, could you tell us the names of some of these guides? If you have a different understanding of the verse, tell us what it is, and how it applies to you personally. 

 

[[There's nothing like personal ayah or any thing like analogy of "shiism" for Muslims, Alhamdulillah i believe in total Quran al hakeem furqan al majeed, unlike a doubt about Quran's whereabouts too !]] 

 

That is how a reasonable discussion is conducted.

When you deal with the queries above, then we can move to the question about Imam al-Hujjah (ajfs).!!! 

As I said friend, imamah & imams are basic pillar of shiism, then you  would have answered me about your 12th imam whereabouts instead of pushing a incomplete verse of Quran first, bcoz we are aware of "Quran" and its whereabouts and all history, but iam not aware of your "present" imam ! But you nor even your ayatollahs are capable of giving answer of your imam's "mode" of operating and not even you people know about his resident/family/assistants etc ; unfortunately friend you disheartened me and iam unable to get "salvation" from your topic neither from you or any 'self proclaimed' shias till now. And it's waste of time for me/us. 

Good bye

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asa,

 

jannah is only for ithna ashari who had marif and did tathiratul qalb. that said is many would be raised from the dead and offered the din in rajat, they like everyone would have three days, my teacher has shown me this from several ways. the people who died pre baligh would be tested. jannah is not for mutard repentant or not or walad zani, for more these topics see illaush shari of shaykh saduq, and haqqul yaqin of allammah majalisi.

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39 minutes ago, Reader. said:

As I said friend, imamah & imams are basic pillar of shiism, then you  would have answered me about your 12th imam whereabouts instead of pushing a incomplete verse of Quran first, bcoz we are aware of "Quran" and its whereabouts and all history, but iam not aware of your "present" imam ! But you nor even your ayatollahs are capable of giving answer of your imam's "mode" of operating and not even you people know about his resident/family/assistants etc ; unfortunately friend you disheartened me and iam unable to get "salvation" from your topic neither from you or any 'self proclaimed' shias till now. And it's waste of time for me/us. 

Good bye

Okay, answer these questions:

1. If a Muslim says "I do not believe in the Imamah of Abu Bakr and 'Umar," is he still a Muslim, or a kafir? Answer with quotations from your Sunni scholars (I have fatwas of your scholars, in case you want to play any trick).

2. If a Muslim denies the coming of Imam al-Mahdi (ajfs) or his Imamah, is he still a Muslim, or a kafir? (Again, I have fatwas of your scholars, in case you intend to play any trick).

And, you are yet to tell us your understanding of Qur'an 13:7.

I am still waiting for your tafsir.

Edited by أبو فاطمة المحمدي

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On 4/4/2016 at 8:45 PM, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Look at the verse again:

وَمِمَّنْ خَلَقْنَا أُمَّةٌ يَهْدُونَ بِالْحَقِّ وَبِهِ يَعْدِلُونَ

And of those whom We have created are a people who guide with the truth and thereby they do justice.

The verbs in the Arabic are in the present continuous tense. If the ayah had been about the prophets and messengers, the verbs would have been in the past tense.

5:55
Sahih International
Your ally is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship].

I guess this verse is then apparently explaining that Imam Ali is still giving zakat to this day.

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