Wiping/Washing of the feet

[GreatChineseFall 48]

2 minutes ago, Talut said:

Who said I am even interrested in this? What matters to me is what is the right way of wudhu and what is not. 

Fair enough, then that is what all madhhabs have concluded on the basis of the mulititude and authenticity of narrations showing that. You can either try to de-authenticate them. But I still believe that de-authenticating them on the basis that it supposedly contradicts Qur'an is a wrong assertion. If you can de-authenticate them otherwise by pointing out a defect of a narrator example, then I would like to see that. The other option is to interpret these narrations differently than the scholars of the madhabs do.

[Talut 211]

11 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

That is what I find reasonable, if you disagree you can explain to me how it's contradicting.

The christians found it reasonable to introduce celibacy because they believed they could serve Allah better by doing that.

Furthermore it is not about reason. It is about belief in extra-Quranic texts that makes you willing to read something diffirent than actually stands there.

 

 

13 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

Research is done by authenticating and de-authenticating what is narrated. You are free to propose a system for doing that.

Yes but to de-authenticate a Quranic by verse by authenticating a narration is unbearable no matter how you present your point.

 

 

15 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

They were an example because that's what people usually claim, I also said anyone for further clarification.

You should talk for yourself and not for other people so much.



 

[Talut 211]

20 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

But I still believe that de-authenticating them on the basis that it supposedly contradicts Qur'an is a wrong assertion.

Only when one does not take the Quran as highest authority.

 

 

20 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

If you can de-authenticate them otherwise by pointing out a defect of a narrator example, then I would like to see that.

So you're more confident about people than the Book of Allah?

 

 

20 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

The other option is to interpret these narrations differently than the scholars of the madhabs do.

I have no interests. Only a conviction.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Talut

[GreatChineseFall 48]

18 minutes ago, Talut said:

The christians found it reasonable to introduce celibacy because they believed they could serve Allah better by doing that.

Furthermore it is not about reason. It is about belief in extra-Quranic texts that makes you willing to read something diffirent than actually stands there.

If prophet Isa told them to do that, then it is reasonable, if they invented it themselves then it's not reasonable. It would only be unreasonable in both cases if the book of Allah specifically told them not to do that.

20 minutes ago, Talut said:

It is about belief in extra-Quranic texts that makes you willing to read something diffirent than actually stands there.

I still don't see how that is different from washing your mouth, ears etc. Only if you do something that neglects wiping your feet, then you would have a point.

24 minutes ago, Talut said:

Yes but to de-authenticate a Quranic by verse by authenticating a narration is unbearable no matter how you present your point.

That is were we disagree, I don't feel I de-authenticate a Qur'anic verse, I still wipe my feet.

17 minutes ago, Talut said:

Only when one does not take the Quran as highest authority.

No, anyone who believes the two statements are not contradicting each other.

25 minutes ago, Talut said:

You should talk for yourself and not for other people so much.

I don't talk for other people by stating what other people say. Do you talk for the Imams if you quote them?

18 minutes ago, Talut said:

So you're more confident about people than the Book of Allah?

Again, there is no contradiction as far I can judge. Can you please show me?

[Talut 211]

 

20 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

That is were we disagree, I don't feel I de-authenticate a Qur'anic verse, I still wipe my feet.

No you still wash your feet.

 

 

28 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

I still don't see how that is different from washing your mouth, ears etc. Only if you do something that neglects wiping your feet, then you would have a point.

That is to wash them.

 

29 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

No, anyone who believes the two statements are not contradicting each other.

So to wipe is to wash?

 

 

29 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

I don't talk for other people by stating what other people say. Do you talk for the Imams if you quote them?

You said people. I am not people. Be more specific and do not generalize.

 

 

31 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

Do you talk for the Imams if you quote them?

There you go again. I rarely quote an Imam if not never.

 

 

32 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

If prophet Isa told them to do that, then it is reasonable, if they invented it themselves then it's not reasonable. It would only be unreasonable in both cases if the book of Allah specifically told them not to do that.

Well did Allah told you to wash or to wipe your feet?
 

[GreatChineseFall 48]

May I take a small detour please?

Tell me honestly your personal opinion, do you think you invalidate your wudu if you decide one day to wash your feet, because they are more dirty than other days, so not because of any narration of the Prophet or any religious law, just because you feel like it. Are you contradicting the Qur'an?

14 minutes ago, Talut said:

You said people. I am not people. Be more specific and do not generalize.

There you go again. I rarely quote an Imam if not never.

Maybe I misunderstood, you said "You should talk for yourself and not for other people so much." in response to " They were an example because that's what people usually claim, I also said anyone for further clarification." What did you mean and what did you think I said with my statement?

[Reader. 39]

Shias contradictory books themselves says one side to "wash" and on other hand to "wipe" feet ! But ayatollahs and majlisis always prefers opposite of sunnism, for sake of tabarra. 

[Talut 211]

19 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

May I take a small detour please?

Yes, you're welcome.

 

 

19 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

Tell me honestly your personal opinion, do you think you invalidate your wudu if you decide one day to wash your feet, because they are more dirty than other days, so not because of any narration of the Prophet or any religious law, just because you feel like it. Are you contradicting the Qur'an?

Well if that would happen I would do it before my wudhu and not consider it to be a part of it and it would be the same case as washing my armpits first if they would become moist on a hot and sunny day. 

And let's be honest. If you are dirty because of any reason no matter if it are limbs regarding wudhu or other body parts you will first clean yourself and then start the wudhu.

If to wipe your feet means to clean your feet than to wipe is not sufficient and that would refute your argument which is based on your reason right away.

To become partially clean (meaning to wash certain parts of the body) is a consequence of doing wudhu but to purify oneself has a much more deeper meaning and is about obedience, spirituality and many more.

 

Edited March 27, 2016 by Talut

[GreatChineseFall 48]

5 minutes ago, Talut said:

Yes, you're welcome.

Thanks

5 minutes ago, Talut said:

Well if that would happen I would do it before my wudhu and not consider it to be a part of it and it would be the same case as washing my armpits first if they would become moist on a hot and sunny day. 

And if you do it during your wudu, is it then invalidated?

Also, can the Prophet prescribe that you should wash your armpits as part of wudu?

7 minutes ago, Talut said:

If to wipe your feet means to clean your feet than to wipe is not sufficient and that would refute your argument which is based on your reason right away.

No, I dont want to get in a discussion about definitions. I concede every point and accept the shia point of view. To wipe means to wipe and doesn't mean cleaning.

[Talut 211]

14 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

And if you do it during your wudu, is it then invalidated?

 

Only when it replaces wiping. Wiping is wiping. Not washing.

 

 

14 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

Also, can the Prophet prescribe that you should wash your armpits as part of wudu?

The Prophet s.a.w. would transmit all Allah wants us to do. 

I don't understand your question anyway. I don't know the wisdom and the reason behind the wudhu why we only should wash the arms up to the elbows and not the entire arm to the armpit for example. 

It's a decision from Allah and I don't question why this and why not that so that is a discussion I do not wish to enter.

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2016 by Talut

[GreatChineseFall 48]

4 minutes ago, Talut said:

The Prophet s.a.w. would transmit all Allah wants us to do. 

I don't understand your question. I don't know the wisdom and the reason behind the wudhuwhy we only should treat the arms to elbows and not the entire arm to the armpit for example. 

It's a decision of Allah and I don't question it so that is a discussion I do not wish to enter.

Well, unfortunately you can't avoid it. Where is the prescription by Allah to wash (or wipe) your private parts as part of wudu? Or do you only do that when you are in a state of janabah?

The question is, can the Prophet prescribe you to do something in your wudu without being explicitly stated by the Qur'an

Edited March 27, 2016 by GreatChineseFall

[Talut 211]

Do I have to explain you the ABC of the conditions before you start your wudhu?

Or do you really believe you can wash your private parts dyuring your wudhu?

 

Edited March 27, 2016 by Talut

[GreatChineseFall 48]

4 minutes ago, Talut said:

To wash your private parts after visiting the lavatory is an act you do before you start your wudhu.

I don't know who told you that it can be a part f wudhu but now you're ridiculing yourself.

Forget about terms, where does the Qur'an talk about wudu? Is it a religious obligation or not?

[Talut 211]

13 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

The question is, can the Prophet prescribe you to do something in your wudu without being explicitly stated by the Qur'an

That's another issue. We are discussing the issue changing the act of wiping into washing. 

Edited March 27, 2016 by Talut

[Talut 211]

8 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

Forget about terms, where does the Qur'an talk about wudu? Is it a religious obligation or not?

Don't ask questions all the time where you already know the anwsers of 

[GreatChineseFall 48]

3 minutes ago, Talut said:

That's another issue. We are discussing of changing the act of wiping into washing. 

No it isn't, I fail to see the significant difference. That would mean he can prescribe you to wash your shins, but can't prescribe you to wash your feet, that would be unreasonable.

[GreatChineseFall 48]

2 minutes ago, Talut said:

Don't ask questions all the time where you already know the anwsers of 

Ok, but it seems this is overlooked, the Prophet can prescribe you to do something without it being explicitly stated in the Qur'an, so he can tell you to wash your feet as well.

[Talut 211]

4 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

Ok, but it seems this is overlooked, the Prophet can prescribe you to do something without it being explicitly stated in the Qur'an, so he can tell you to wash your feet as well.

An addition which is not obligatory for an extra reward, yes.

An act to replace an act prescribed in the Quran, no.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Talut

[GreatChineseFall 48]

3 minutes ago, Talut said:

An addition which is not obligatory for an extra reward, yes.

An act to replace an act prescribed in the Quran, no.

Washing your private parts is not for extra reward, it is an obligation

You don't replace anything, I really don't understand this argument. How does washing result in a neglect of wiping?

[Talut 211]

5 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

Washing your private parts is not for extra reward, it is an obligation

You don't replace anything, I really don't understand this argument. How does washing result in a neglect of wiping?

Let's stick to the thread please and not enter side ways all the time.

I am talking about the issue to wipe and not to wash.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Talut

[GreatChineseFall 48]

3 minutes ago, Talut said:

Let's stick to the thread please.

I am still talking about the issue to wipe and not to wash.

You mean the definition? I conceded that. I still fail to see how an obligation can not exist if it is not specifically stated in the Qur'an

[Talut 211]

4 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

You mean the definition? I conceded that. I still fail to see how an obligation can not exist if it is not specifically stated in the Qur'an

What does that have to do with washing the feet instead of wiping them?

Edited March 27, 2016 by Talut

[Talut 211]

Right now we are talking about an obligatory act which is specifically stated in the Quran but is replaced by another act according to a narration.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Talut

[GreatChineseFall 48]

3 minutes ago, Talut said:

What does that have to do with to washing the feet instead of wiping them?

Because the Prophet gave us the instruction to wash our feet (according to those narrations) and that is an obligation that is not specifically stated in the Qur'an. And it's not instead, you still wipe them if you wash them.

[Talut 211]

3 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

Because the Prophet gave us the instruction to wash our feet (according to those narrations) and that is an obligation that is not specifically stated in the Qur'an. And it's not instead, you still wipe them if you wash them.

If we should wash them then why does the Quran says wipe them?

[GreatChineseFall 48]

3 minutes ago, Talut said:

If we should wash them then why does the Quran says wipe them?

If we should wash our private parts evrytime we go to the bathroom, why does the Qur'an say to wash them after a state of janabah?

The point is that the Prophet can prescribe things that are not specifically stated in the Qur'an. If we agree on this, I don't see how your question is relevant.

[Talut 211]

31 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

If we should wash our private parts evrytime we go to the bathroom, why does the Qur'an say to wash them after a state of janabah?

 

This is about what do after visiting a lavatory and what to do when in a state of Janabah. Two diffirent situations.

While the last step of wudhu according to the Quran which is to wipe the feet while you claim it is to wash the feet is about one action and the replacement of that action with another one.
 

Edited March 27, 2016 by Talut

[StrugglingForTheLight 1,633]

The Fatha and kasra is with regards if a portion or a whole of subject is be wiped or washed. In the case of "head" it is part of it, however, the next subject is interesting in that it says "from feet to ankle", that means from the feet to ankle, it all has to be wiped. Not part of it, like the head. 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2016 by StrugglingForTheLight

[GreatChineseFall 48]

10 minutes ago, Talut said:

These are two diffirent situations.

But the last step of wudhu according to the Quran is to wipe the feet while you claim it is to wash the feet. It is about the replacement of one action with another action. 

What has that to do with your example of going to the bathroom and having sexual intercourse or doing those things that cause someone to enter the state of janabah?

I don't see them differently. In both cases the Qur'an provides instructions that are extended by the Prophet. In one case, the extension is in action, in the other the extension is in the range of applicability. I don't consider this difference significant for the discussion, honestly.

[Talut 211]

8 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

I don't see them differently. In both cases the Qur'an provides instructions that are extended by the Prophet. In one case, the extension is in action, in the other the extension is in the range of applicability. I don't consider this difference significant for the discussion, honestly.

So what should I do? Should I wash them or wipe them?

[GreatChineseFall 48]

If sunni narrations, have no bearing at all for you, I don't know what to advise you.

If you do, then it's hard to conclude not to wash them. In any case, if you wash them, you wipe them so you never contradict the Qur'an.

[certainclarity 1,094]

34 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

I don't see them differently. In both cases the Qur'an provides instructions that are extended by the Prophet. In one case, the extension is in action, in the other the extension is in the range of applicability. I don't consider this difference significant for the discussion, honestly.

One should definately wash and clean their feet before Salat,specially if your feet are stinky or unclean before wudhu. How ever washing the head and feet is not part of the wudhu.

Allah has used two different words first ghasala, which means wash, which is used for face and hands, then uses a separate word for the feet and head, as masaah.

Ghusl ( wash ) is an act done with a couple of handful of water, but masaah which is wipe just requires your hands to be damp from the wetness of the water.

You cannot wipe your privates for cleaning or do ghusl janaba with only hands from dampness or wetness from water. You need a handful , which is ghusl.

If it were only to be wash ( ghasalah ) Allah would not use ( masaah ) seperately for head and feet.

It is only common sense to use, one word for all instead of separating it with another word which has a totally different meaning.

 

Edited March 27, 2016 by certainclarity

[أبو فاطمة المحمدي 755]

Talk about a confused, ridiculous fellow:

6 hours ago, GreatChineseFall said:

I concede every point and accept the shia point of view. To wipe means to wipe and doesn't mean cleaning.

 

8 hours ago, GreatChineseFall said:

If the Qur'an doesn't explicitly tells us to not wash them, then there is no contradiction. Again, do you do wudu exactly as it is written in the Qur'an and nothing else?

 

6 hours ago, GreatChineseFall said:

Because the Prophet gave us the instruction to wash our feet (according to those narrations) and that is an obligation that is not specifically stated in the Qur'an. And it's not instead, you still wipe them if you wash them.

 

5 hours ago, GreatChineseFall said:

If you do, then it's hard to conclude not to wash them. In any case, if you wash them, you wipe them so you never contradict the Qur'an.

Edited March 28, 2016 by أبو فاطمة المحمدي

[GreatChineseFall 48]

4 hours ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Talk about a confused, ridiculous fellow:

You have a habit of ignoring context, no wonder my comments would be treated the same way.

Keep running away, (how many times did those seventy people die that day?)

Edited March 28, 2016 by GreatChineseFall

[أبو فاطمة المحمدي 755]

5 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

You have a habit of ignoring context, no wonder my comments would be treated the same way.

According to your twisted logic, when the Qur'an commands you to WIPE your feet, you can fulfill that command by instead WASHING them. And you think that makes you look responsible and sincere?