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Chaotic Muslem

Proper Hjab

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57 minutes ago, Zendegi said:

Each to their own. Sorry I don't want to be a bully to any women even my younger Sister. They themselves should decide what they wear and how they wear it. Its basically none of my business and I don't want to pester anyone about this issue. 

This is exactly what this thread is about. There is the courteous ways for each culture but then there is the islamic spirit of muslim communities which should not discourage calls for attention for flaws. For example, if many brothers start to abandon the prayer or they start mingling with girls, according to islam , it is an obligation upon the rest to alert them, else all the community will be doomed and subject to wrath of Allah. 

This islamic spirit should not be exploited like in many eastern cultures nor it should be abandoned in west.

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2 hours ago, Sumayyeh said:

Shout out to CM for raising this topic :)

As a member of the female race, I appreciate it when brothers talk about the importance of proper hijab. Why?

Because they know how guys think.

He's giving me the male perspective that some choose to be oblivious to.

With all the "fashion" hype and advertising of women, we should take advantage of every opportunity to empower Hayaa and modesty and true beauty for the sisters.

Why doesnt every female think like you ?

Edited by laithAlIRAQI

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While I am sure there is a need for amr bil maaroof and nahy anil munkar with regards to hijab, I think we must not underestimate the power of "leading by example". If enough people consistently observe proper hijab, and stand out in their everyday life for example good students, co workers, teachers, neighbors etc, the hijab speaks out for itself and you start noticing people making a conscious effort to observe better hijab while around you, and eventually even away from you. 

P.s I have never lived in the west though i do live in a majority non muslim country and am aware of the hijabless in "hijab" challenge in our society, so there may be challenges and unique aspects about life in the west that require a one on one reminder as opposed to spreading general information about hijab to all that i have not taken into consideration. My worry is that a lot of people tend to take a hardline position and go on the defensive if they even think you are implying they are doing something wrong and that you have noticed it. For example, when I was at campus, I had a Muslim classmate who came from a background which made her a muslim by name only. She did not pray, know/observe any rules about taharah/najis, observe hijab, know how to read quran etc. But we ignored all this stuff and simply included her in our Muslim sisters circle without making a topic of her non-observance. As a by the way, we initiated qur'an and salah classes for all, whether you could or could not, held "fiqh classes", shared recipes etc, and in less than two months she was fully part of the circle and observed salah, hijab etc. We never did manage to make her fluent in Qur'an recitation, but I think that may have been due to moving a bit too fast on the lessons owing to time restriction and possibly over zealousness.

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12 hours ago, Zendegi said:

Each to their own. Sorry I don't want to be a bully to any women even my younger Sister. They themselves should decide what they wear and how they wear it. Its basically none of my business and I don't want to pester anyone about this issue. 

If I'm not mistaken there is no punishment in the Sunni or Shia hadith canon for punishment if a hijab is not worn properly.

Edited by Enlightened Follower

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On 3/8/2016 at 2:33 AM, baradar_jackson said:

There are two problems we have with respect to the issue of propagating correct hijab: On the one hand, many of those who propagate correct hijab (be they men or women) sometimes do not use the best methods and the desired result is not achieved, and on the other hand we have a lot of people who have the Iblees / Vince Young logic of: "caint nobody tell me nuthin." The former strengthens the latter and vice versa.

Nowadays when Iblees' logic is ubiquitous and even encouraged, we need to find away around this.

Not me, of course. Y'all people need to.

Salam brother,

The hijab should be treated with respect as a reward not a burden one must carry.

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There is nothing wrong at all with a brother or sister advising someone wearing hijab if they do it in a polite and courteous manner. One time I had a lovely who came up and started talking to me and she mentioned that my sleeves had to be a bit longer and I really appreciated how she brought it up.

The thing that bothers me is when you get someone who is always moaning about how sisters are dressed when they themselves aren't modestly dressed. Its a shame that some brothers seem to think hijab and hayaa is not an obligation on them as well. And its the only thing they seem to care about. Of course hijab is important wallahi but there are other issues that need to be adressed among the Muslims as well.

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On 3/8/2016 at 5:37 PM, habib e najjaar said:

While I am sure there is a need for amr bil maaroof and nahy anil munkar with regards to hijab, I think we must not underestimate the power of "leading by example". If enough people consistently observe proper hijab, and stand out in their everyday life for example good students, co workers, teachers, neighbors etc, the hijab speaks out for itself and you start noticing people making a conscious effort to observe better hijab while around you, and eventually even away from you. 

P.s I have never lived in the west though i do live in a majority non muslim country and am aware of the hijabless in "hijab" challenge in our society, so there may be challenges and unique aspects about life in the west that require a one on one reminder as opposed to spreading general information about hijab to all that i have not taken into consideration. My worry is that a lot of people tend to take a hardline position and go on the defensive if they even think you are implying they are doing something wrong and that you have noticed it. For example, when I was at campus, I had a Muslim classmate who came from a background which made her a muslim by name only. She did not pray, know/observe any rules about taharah/najis, observe hijab, know how to read quran etc. But we ignored all this stuff and simply included her in our Muslim sisters circle without making a topic of her non-observance. As a by the way, we initiated qur'an and salah classes for all, whether you could or could not, held "fiqh classes", shared recipes etc, and in less than two months she was fully part of the circle and observed salah, hijab etc. We never did manage to make her fluent in Qur'an recitation, but I think that may have been due to moving a bit too fast on the lessons owing to time restriction and possibly over zealousness.

surely, amr bil ma'roof is an art. it has many degrees and many laws and many methods and it is on itself an obligation that cannot be ignored.

leading by example is one way of amr bil ma'roof and not something external.

prophet said whoever saw a munkar (wrong) then he should fix it with his hands. if he couldn't he should speak against it. if he couldn't then he should reject that wrong with his heart and this last phase is the weakest level of imaan.

meaning, if we not even saw the wrong as wrong with our hearts at least, then let us all know that imaan has not entered our hearts and we belong to the group of beduins who came to the prophet and said we acquired imaan. Allah revealed to them in Quran that they didn't, they only were muslims.

قَالَتِ الأَعْرَابُ آمَنَّا قُلْ لَمْ تُؤْمِنُوا وَلَكِنْ قُولُوا أَسْلَمْنَا وَلَمَّا يَدْخُلِ الإِيمَانُ فِي قُلُوبِكُمْ

this is critical point.

On 3/8/2016 at 8:32 PM, zainabamy said:

There is nothing wrong at all with a brother or sister advising someone wearing hijab if they do it in a polite and courteous manner. One time I had a lovely who came up and started talking to me and she mentioned that my sleeves had to be a bit longer and I really appreciated how she brought it up.

The thing that bothers me is when you get someone who is always moaning about how sisters are dressed when they themselves aren't modestly dressed. Its a shame that some brothers seem to think hijab and hayaa is not an obligation on them as well. And its the only thing they seem to care about. Of course hijab is important wallahi but there are other issues that need to be adressed among the Muslims as well.

yes. there is a video for shaheed mutahhari talking about etiquette of amr bil ma'roof. for if you done it wrong, you might get ethm (sins) instead of rewards that is when you push people away from religion. 

one of the stories told about some preachers from the past is that he tests himself for long period of time observing himself regarding a trait or an action before he goes on a pulpit and preach it to people.

Allah said in Quran : 

O you who have believed, why do you say what you do not do? 

Great is hatred in the sight of Allah that you say what you do not do.

and we have ahadith that show some scholars will be in hell for preaching one thing then going against it.

But that's their own problem. in hadiths we find imams describing the believers as seekers of knowledge and that believer will catch up that knowledge from anyone. Maybe a hypocrite will utter that word but the effect of it on the believer will be guidance while the hypocrite will be further from the right path.

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12 minutes ago, Semiramis said:

First it's men's responsibility to cast their eyes down n everybody is just worried about women's hijab n that's not fair. Better to start a topic about men's glance!!!!!

And it's the responsibility of the women to cover themselves.

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On 3/9/2016 at 2:20 AM, Semiramis said:

First it's men's responsibility to cast their eyes down n everybody is just worried about women's hijab n that's not fair. Better to start a topic about men's glance!!!!!

It is man responsibility to save their family as well from fire, including mother, sister and daughter. It is even harder to advise a relative.

It is everyone's responsibility to cast their eyes down , including women who now days adore some sinful actors or singers or whatever.

It is everyone's resposnislity to cast their eyes down when haram content is on display including zillions of naked women bodies.

It is,  in my opinion, an era responsibility of muslim women to stand up and say : women are not for sale directly or indirectly.

Women beauty through media and fashion means only to increase sale. They pay handsomely to maintain such state . They pay writers, magazines, tv shows etc. They support campaigners and right activists . These things dont exist without a fund.

Women are for sale and muslims women with their hijab are saying : I am sorry, I am not for sale. I am not a hoarse that will be ride to achieve some profit by someone who dose not fear Allah and who exploit the body of women.

Women are responsible that society finds it hard to speak about hijab in critical manner. Their attitude towards their own community is negative once the hijab topic is talked about. One should not fear to talk against wine nor against illegal relationships nor about illegal food nor about domestic violence within a muslim community. We should not terrorise our brothers, give them the worst of our tongues because some of them are bad. Surely the bad samples exist in both gender groups.

By doing so, we dont push away some bad samples only. We reinforce in every young muslim man that he is bad sample for being muslim young man with twisted mind. We reinforce that woman is above any criticism regarding her garment and we reinforce that amr bil ma'roof is to be done in certain direction that serves the status quo.

It wouldn't be an obligation if it was that pleasant , but amr isn't pleasant . Truth hurts but after reflection it should be the best pieces of advice given. 

Women should really man up a little and accept that they are not above the law. Hijab is islamic obligation. Yes it is a personal duty but that is the case of prayer too. We should reinforce the obligation of prayer because it is an islamic law, not because it is a personal choice of spiritual practice. Like wise, hijab dose not belong to women, it belongs to Allah. He made that law and women should abde by it. If a man came and told a woman about her hijab in the proper way , she should listen because thats the law of Allah. You dont own this religion. 

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8 hours ago, Enlightened Follower said:

If I'm not mistaken there is no punishment in the Sunni or Shia hadith canon for punishment if a hijab is not worn properly.

There is no specified Hadd. But the State can enforce it.

Edited by The Batman

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Infact even God gave authority to all individuals to choose the right way. God said we showed the way whether he be grateful or ungrateful. Why brothers n fathers have this right to decide instead of women? If a woman wants to sell her body it's her matter n she'll be judged by God. Don't u think women doing mutah r doing the same thing but legally?

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On 3/9/2016 at 3:51 AM, Semiramis said:

Infact even God gave authority to all individuals to choose the right way. God said we showed the way whether he be grateful or ungrateful. Why brothers n fathers have this right to decide instead of women? If a woman wants to sell her body it's her matter n she'll be judged by God. Don't u think women doing mutah r doing the same thing but legally?

Do you see the word "instead" anywhere above in the whole discussion?

And it is up to the disobedient  woman to look the way she likes. It is the duty of obedient brothers and sisters to point out the way that Allah likes his obedient servant to look. If the disobedient woman went frenzy angry, she might as well hit her head on four walls. If she thinks that she can wear what she likes then certainly what those brothers and sisters are saying should not of her concern.

The above message is for those women who CARE to follow the rules and DONT MIND to be informed that they ignorantly or obliviously done something wrong.

Allah said that these reminders benefit only those who are believing. Those who dont believe are not of our concern.

NO ONE HERE IS ADVOCATING WRONG WAYS OF AMR BIL MA'ROOF.

Will there be a similar backlash if i opened a thread about proper way of prayer for brothers? Or how to treat your wife in Islam?

Or about some cyber prevs ? I doubt it.

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4 hours ago, Chaotic Muslem said:

It is man responsibility to save their family as well from fire, including mother, sister and daughter.

I refer to this part... It's not man's resposibility to save his family from fire it's an indivial's responsibility to save him/herself... I know wht u mean but I really wonder why this matter is so important for brothers to discuss? N I want to know if your sister wasn't into hijab would u let her to do whtever she wants? All in all I think we reached an agreement.

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This topic came up in the forum front page. I thought it was unfair to have in the brother's forum not the sister's. "I know most women dont like to be preached by men-" you're right, they don't. I don't. The moment a man opens his mouth to correct any woman's hijab,- excuse my languge- I feel like stuffing a sock in there. Women, especially in the west, struggle a lot already. They don't hear or experience the nicest things/reactions from non-muslims and to have a muslim add to that- it can get overwhelmingly painful. The hijab screams "I'm diffirenent!", and that's ok. Fundamentally, we're all different. Unfortunately, to a few ignroant people it also reads "The face of ISIS" and "controversial religion"; sadly ignorant people are everywhere. Women are much easier targets anyway. My mother, during her early years in Germany, was spat at and even slapped by non-muslim men. My father didn't hear of this till much later. She didn't wear long shirts, but she wore a hijab. She wore suits with her hijab to her volunteer job as a physician (since she'd been discriminated against). She did what she could with it. To undermine the struggle and tell someone to do better- it digusts me! Exactly why, although I haven't faced anything more than feeling alienated, a few odd smaking lips and stares, I feel irritated and angry when I hear a man (especially one wearing trousers/jeans tight around the groin region) correcting another woman's hijab. Now there are exceptions. Knowing my father's intentions, I always run things by him when I feel my hijab might be a little too "non-hijabi" so to say. If you hold an appropriate relationship with someone, or find yourself skillful in guiding individuals rather than directing them to change- go for it. But most men I've heard speak, speak utter nonesense. 

Regarding the bump on the back of the head- I think it can be a result of having long hair, though it is possible to minimise the size of it. I do appreciate the fact that many sisters choose to put "butterfly" clips to give it more volume. Regardless, I wouldn't know why it would work against the hijab or be haram. 

On 3/8/2016 at 1:26 PM, StarryNight said:

I never understood why women become offended if you tell them about fixing their hijab. I think the sisters that let you know you hijab isn't correct are like angels Allah swt sends to protect you. It can all be done kindly and no need to sound bossy or undermine anyone. 

Inshallah more sisters can help others and don't ever get offended :)

Normal human nature. We reject persuasion whenever if it feels like someone is imposing their opinion/interpretation of something onto us. ^_^ 

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On 3/9/2016 at 0:15 PM, yusur317 said:

This topic came up in the forum front page. I thought it was unfair to have in the brother's forum not the sister's. "I know most women dont like to be preached by men-" you're right, they don't. I don't. The moment a man opens his mouth to correct any woman's hijab,- excuse my languge- I feel like stuffing a sock in there. Women, especially in the west, struggle a lot already. They don't hear or experience the nicest things/reactions from non-muslims and to have a muslim add to that- it can get overwhelmingly painful. The hijab screams "I'm diffirenent!", and that's ok. Fundamentally, we're all different. Unfortunately, to a few ignroant people it also reads "The face of ISIS" and "controversial religion"; sadly ignorant people are everywhere. Women are much easier targets anyway. My mother, during her early years in Germany, was spat at and even slapped by non-muslim men. My father didn't hear of this till much later. She didn't wear long shirts, but she wore a hijab. She wore suits with her hijab to her volunteer job as a physician (since she'd been discriminated against). She did what she could with it. To undermine the struggle and tell someone to do better- it digusts me! Exactly why, although I haven't faced anything more than feeling alienated, a few odd smaking lips and stares, I feel irritated and angry when I hear a man (especially one wearing trousers/jeans tight around the groin region) correcting another woman's hijab. Now there are exceptions. Knowing my father's intentions, I always run things by him when I feel my hijab might be a little too "non-hijabi" so to say. If you hold an appropriate relationship with someone, or find yourself skillful in guiding individuals rather than directing them to change- go for it. But most men I've heard speak, speak utter nonesense. 

Regarding the bump on the back of the head- I think it can be a result of having long hair, though it is possible to minimise the size of it. I do appreciate the fact that many sisters choose to put "butterfly" clips to give it more volume. Regardless, I wouldn't know why it would work against the hijab or be haram. 

Normal human nature. We reject persuasion whenever if it feels like someone is imposing their opinion/interpretation of something onto us. ^_^ 

While all that is said above is well respected, when someone new to islam asks you about the proper hijab if there was no social pressure, would you describe a warp up or proper hijab according to islam?

see, this is not about you or your mother. Nor about me and my arrogance. It is about what's there in our books. I cannot tell a revert that islam dose not ask women to cover up when they dont feel like it, that would be a blatant lie.

If brother write something on social media or made a public talk in local mosque about proper hijab, he is certainly not making the exceptions the headlines.

We can eat pork when we are very hungry and about to die. We can claim we are not muslims when we are under death. We can insult and curse the holly of holiest even. But these are exceptions not the main law.

The man law is the proper hijab should cover the woman curves, hair, neck and arms. If someone thought that you are worthy of being better but you thought that he is wrong, well then, it is very bad on your part.

AGAIN, NO ONE HERE IS ADVOCATING THE WRONG WAYS OF ADVISE NOR THIS ONE TO ONE MESSAGES ..

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On 3/9/2016 at 0:44 PM, Chaotic Muslem said:

While all that is said above is well respected, when someone new to islam asks you about the proper hijab if there was no social pressure, would you describe a warp up or proper hijab according to islam?

see, this is not about you or your mother. Nor about me and my arrogance. It is about what's there in our books. I cannot tell a revert that islam dose not ask women to cover up when they dont feel like it, that would be a blatant lie.

If brother write something on social media or made a public talk in local mosque about proper hijab, he is certainly not making the exceptions the headlines.

We can eat pork when we are very hungry and about to die. We can claim we are not muslims when we are under death. We can insult and curse the holly of holiest even. But these are exceptions not the main law.

The man law is the proper hijab should cover the woman curves, hair, neck and arms. If someone thought that you are worthy of being better but you thought that he is wrong, well then, it is very bad on your part.

AGAIN, NO ONE HERE IS ADVOCATING THE WRONG WAYS OF ADVISE NOR THIS ONE TO ONE MESSAGES ..

I'll repeat myself for you sister, 

" If you hold an appropriate relationship with someone, or find yourself skillful in guiding individuals rather than directing them to change- go for it. But most men I've heard speak, speak utter nonesense." 

Under certain circumstances, advising sister is appropriate. I don't want you to drive a sister further from change/improvement, as I'm sure you probably don't either. Read about something called motivational interviewing for behavioural change, might help :) It just happens, that most women don't want to hear it coming from men. Especially male acquaintances or strangers. 

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I think the element that some people may be misunderstanding is that No one here is advocating people to be holier than thou types. Or lecturing, downplaying, or diminishing the challenges of wearing hijab in the west. 

We're talking about empowering each other. That's all.... 

And brothers can have an especially important role in this respect. They should support sisters in this regard.

If anything the brothers' hijab of safeguarding their gazes is extremely challenging. Sisters should be encouraging in that regard as well. In short, we should all be enjoining the good and forbid the evil.

its just real talk 

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15 hours ago, yusur317 said:

I'll repeat myself for you sister, 

" If you hold an appropriate relationship with someone, or find yourself skillful in guiding individuals rather than directing them to change- go for it. But most men I've heard speak, speak utter nonesense." 

Under certain circumstances, advising sister is appropriate. I don't want you to drive a sister further from change/improvement, as I'm sure you probably don't either. Read about something called motivational interviewing for behavioural change, might help :) It just happens, that most women don't want to hear it coming from men. Especially male acquaintances or strangers. 

non sense like what?

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I remember during our childhood in the school we were taught ants and bees are social creatures like humans. It means they had assumed that we knew humans are social creatures. But was it the case? Isn't it better to be taught we humans are social creatures and what it really means to be a social creature?

We, both men and women, should know that the way we dress isn't a personal choice. We, human beings, are social creatures. Every one of us has their own duty.

The hijab for sisters is a resalat (responsibility) given by Allah to them. Allah has given them some sort of (jamal) beauty -- kind of beauty men's nature is very sensitive to -- and has ordered them to restrict the exposing of this beauty to some specific individuals (for everyone in its own defined level). Hijablessness has its damage to men as well as to women themselves, personally and as a result for families and society.

It's not for nothing we have so many problems in our society. That's because we don't take our social responsibility and regard them as personal! This is what is called modern jaheliyah.

The way we act (dressing is one of these acts) in society is everyone's business.

P.S. That was a response from an Islamic point of view to those who regard women's dressing a personal choice. There are other issues (like when and how and if observing hijab can become a social law) to be discussed which are not the subject of this thread.

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On 3/10/2016 at 9:33 AM, kamyar said:

The hijab for sisters is a resalat (responsibility) given by Allah to them. Allah has given them some sort of (jamal) beauty -- kind of beauty men's nature is very sensitive to -- and has ordered them to restrict the exposing of this beauty to some specific individuals (for everyone in its own defined level). Hijablessness has its damage to men as well as to women themselves, personally and as a result for families and society.

Should I jump to conclusions n ask why men don't do their resalat n keep glancing at women even women in hijab? I can't judge them cuz I am not a man so a man can't judge a woman till he walks in her shoes. Street harassmen has its damage as well. So don't teach us wht to wear teach the other brothers to stop st harassment!!!!!! N if wearing hijab can stop this stuff why my friend wears chador has the same problem?

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1 hour ago, Semiramis said:

Should I jump to conclusions n ask why men don't do their resalat n keep glancing at women even women in hijab? I can't judge them cuz I am not a man so a man can't judge a woman till he walks in her shoes. Street harassmen has its damage as well. So don't teach us wht to wear teach the other brothers to stop st harassment!!!!!! N if wearing hijab can stop this stuff why my friend wears chador has the same problem?

It is the prophet teaching, not his.

If a scholar who happens to be a brother answered a question regarding menses, what dose that make him?

If a brother volunteering in a mosque said " please all sisters  you should know that women during menses should not enter mosque" whats should that make him?

He should experience menses to make a public reminder?

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54 minutes ago, Chaotic Muslem said:
55 minutes ago, Chaotic Muslem said:

It is the prophet teaching, not his.

If a scholar who happens to be a brother answered a question regarding menses, what dose that make him?

If a brother volunteering in a mosque said " please all sisters  you should know that women during menses should not enter mosque" whats should that make him?

He should experience menses to make a public reminder?

 

Wht u say doesn't make sense... Comparing a scholar to the other guys is not rational. If the other brothers reach that point ( in all aspects their knowledge, their manner, their moral) ladies will be grateful to be preached. I even havent seen a scholar talking about obligations without asking them.

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9 hours ago, Semiramis said:

Should I jump to conclusions n ask why men don't do their resalat n keep glancing at women even women in hijab? I can't judge them cuz I am not a man so a man can't judge a woman till he walks in her shoes. Street harassmen has its damage as well. So don't teach us wht to wear teach the other brothers to stop st harassment!!!!!! N if wearing hijab can stop this stuff why my friend wears chador has the same problem?

It is the hearts of those men that is najs or impure. It is defection within them sister don't blame yourself or your friend for what you cannot control, also, hijab does embolden less stares from men it is simply the case some individuals are depraved.

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7 hours ago, Semiramis said:

Wht u say doesn't make sense... Comparing a scholar to the other guys is not rational. If the other brothers reach that point ( in all aspects their knowledge, their manner, their moral) ladies will be grateful to be preached. I even havent seen a scholar talking about obligations without asking them.

Additionally,the prophet's teachings have ways of being interpreted.

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On 3/10/2016 at 3:00 PM, Semiramis said:

Wht u say doesn't make sense... Comparing a scholar to the other guys is not rational. If the other brothers reach that point ( in all aspects their knowledge, their manner, their moral) ladies will be grateful to be preached. I even havent seen a scholar talking about obligations without asking them.

never attended a lecture ? 0.o

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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