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أبو فاطمة المحمدي

Seeing Allah

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As-Salam 'Alaikum,

This thread is opened upon the request of the respected @Sunnibro

The Ahl al-Sunnah generally fundamentally disagree on pretty much everything in the religion, including in all areas of 'aqidah and fiqh. However, there is one exception, and that is the question of seeing Allah with the eyes. Essentially all Sunnis of all Sunni sects agree on this one issue. There are a very tiny minority - symbolized by Sayyid Hasan al-Saqqaf - who align with the Shi'i position (that Allah cannot be seen at all, in any circumstance). However, they are very insignificant in their numbers.

Imam Ibn Kathir, in his tafsir, has recorded how it will happen:

(Looking at their Lord.) meaning, they will see Him with their very eyes. This is just as was recorded by Al-Bukhari in his Sahih,

(Verily, you all will see your Lord with your own eyes.)

The believers seeing Allah in the abode of the Hereafter has been confirmed in the authentic Hadiths from numerous routes of transmission with the scholars of Hadith. It is not possible to deny this or refuse it.

Examples would be the Hadiths of Abu Sa`id and Abu Hurayrah, and they are both recorded in the Two Sahihs. They both mentioned that some people said, "O Messenger of Allah! Will we see our Lord on the Day of Judgement'' The Prophet said, (Are you harmed by seeing the sun and the moon when there are no clouds beneath them) They replied, "No.'' The Prophet then said, (Then you will surely see your Lord like that.) In the Two Sahihs it is recorded from Jabir that he said, "The Messenger of Allah looked at the moon on a night when it was full, and he said, (Verily, you will see your Lord just as you see this moon! So if you are able to avoid missing a prayer before the rising of the sun (Fajr prayer) or before its setting (`Asr prayer) then do so.)''

Among the Hadiths, which Muslim was alone in recording, is a narration from Suhayb that the Prophet said, (When the people of Paradise enter the Paradise, Allah will say, `Do you want me to give you anything extra' They will say, `Haven't you whitened our faces Haven't you entered us into Paradise and saved us from the Fire' Then He will remove the veil and they will not be given anything more beloved to them than looking at their Lord, and that will be the extra (Ziyadah).) Then he recited this Ayah, (For those who have done good is the best and extra (Ziyadah).) (10:26)

Also among the Hadiths, which Muslim was alone in recording, is the Hadith of Jabir in which the Prophet said, (Verily, Allah will appear before the believers while He is laughing.) This will take place on the open plains of the Resurrection place.

In some of these Hadiths, it mentions that the believers will be looking at their Lord on the open plains and some mention that this will occur in the Gardens of Paradise. If it were not due to fear of taking up a lot of space, we would present all of these Hadiths with their routes of transmission and wordings from those that are in the Sahih collections, the collections of good narrations, the Musnad collections and the Sunan collections. However, we have mentioned this in separate places in this Tafsir, and Allah is the Giver of success. This issue is something that the Companions, the Successors and the Salaf of this nation have agreed upon, and all praise is due to Allah. It is something that is agreed upon between the Imams of Islam and the guides of all mankind.

These ahadith create some unavoidable conclusions:

1. Allah has a nature which makes Him visible to the naked eye. Of course, our eyes can only see bodily substances. So, the Sunni ahadith claim that Allah is a bodily substance, a jism.

2. There is no difference between seeing Allah and seeing the moon. Both are seen in exactly the same manners.

Naturally, many of the non-Salafi Sunnis feel uncomfortable with the fact that Allah can be seen with the eyes in the raw sense. This is because they are aware of the Qur'anic ayah which declares that there is nothing like Allah. If Allah is a bodily substance too, then He is like us all in that regard. Unlike Salafis who do not seem to care much about this issue, mainstream Sunnis try to harmonize two contradictions: (i) Allah can be seen with the eyes and (ii) Allah is not a bodily substance. For instance, this Hanafi Sunni website states:

The position of the mainstream Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jama’ah (Asha’ira and Maturidiyya) is that the vision of Allah Most High with the eyes of the head is rationally (aqlan) possible and that the believers will be blessed with this vision in the hereafter. This vision, however, will be without encompassment (ihata) or delimitation (tahdid) within any given limit (hadd), whether from the front, the back, above, below, right, or left. Allah Most High will be seen (unlike any material being) not in place or in a direction so far as being confronted, nor by the conjunction of the rays of light, nor by a certain definite distance between the one who sees and Allah.

In other words, the believers will see Allah Most High in Paradise without our specifying how and in a manner Allah knows best. It is impossible and wrong to draw analogy for the unseen from the seen. This vision of Allah is certainly unlike the vision of material things in this world, for vision in this world requires the seen to be in a place, direction, at a specific distance, etc, whilst the vision of Allah Most High in the hereafter will be free from such restrictions. Allah Most High will enable the believers to see His esteemed self. (Culled from Mulla Ali al-Qari’s Sharh Fiqh al-AkbarP: 245-246, Taftazani’s Sharh al-Aqa’id al-Nasafiyya P: 131, Nuh Ali Suleyman’s commentary on Jawhara al-Tawhid P: 113 and Bajuri’s commentary on the Jawhara P: 114)

The problem here, however, is that Sunnis will see Allah in exactly the same way that they see the moon. This is "authentically" transmitted in their ahadith. So, do you see the moon "without encompassment, delimitation within any given limit, whether from the front, the back, above, below, right, or left"? Of course, we see the moon above us - in a specific direction!

This is a Sufi opinion on this matter:

Let us now move towards the Arabic of first hadith which actually proves without doubt that Prophet (Peace be upon him) actually said that "He saw Allah"

حدّثنا أَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ أَبِي شَيْبَةَ : حَدَّثَنَا وَكِيعٌ عَنْ يَزِيدَ بْنِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ قَتَادَةَ عَنْ عَبْدِ اللّهِ بْنِ شَقِيقٍ عَنْ أَبِي ذَرٍّ ، قَالَ: سَأَلْتُ رَسُولَ اللّهِ: هَلْ رَأَيْتَ رَبَّكَ؟ قَالَ: «نُورٌ انى أَرَاهُ»؟.

Translation of Matn: Narrated by Abu Dharr (RA): I asked the Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him): Did you see your Lord? The Prophet (Peace be upon him) replied: He is Nur (نُورٌ) I Saw Him ( انى أَرَاهُ) [Sahih Muslim, Hadith # 351, Hadith number from Sharh Sahih Muslim by Allama Ghulam Rasool Sa’eedi – Damat Barkatahum Alia]

This is the perfect translation which actually proves that Prophet (Peace be upon him) did indeed see Allah.

In other words, the Prophet allegedly saw Allah with the very same eyes he used to see Abu Bakr and 'Umar, in Makkah and al-Madinah.

Here is another Sufi website which repeats the same thing:

Here is a detailed article with proofs from Qur'an al Kareem, Ahadith an-Nabawi (Sallallaho Alaihi Wasallam), Sayings of the Noble Sahaba and from the writings of great and authentic scholars of Islam that the Messenger of Allah Sallallahu Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wa Sallam did see Allah with his naked eyes and he also did proceed to the Divine Arsh on the night of Me'raj.

Perhaps, I should quote this hadith from Sahih al-Bukhari as well, which proves that Allah resembles His creatures so much that Sunnis will think He is a creature:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The people said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He replied, "Do you have any doubt in seeing the full moon on a clear (not cloudy) night?" They replied, "No, O Allah's Apostle!" He said, "Do you have any doubt in seeing the sun when there are no clouds?" They replied in the negative. He said, "You will see Allah (your Lord) in the same way. On the Day of Resurrection, people will be gathered and He will order the people to follow what they used to worship. So some of them will follow the sun, some will follow the moon, and some will follow other deities; and only this nation (Muslims) will be left with its hypocrites. Allah will come to them and say, 'I am Your Lord.' They will say, 'We shall stay in this place till our Lord comes to us and when our Lord will come, we will recognize Him. Then Allah will come to them again and say, 'I am your Lord.' They will say, 'You are our Lord.'

This hadith indicates two things:

1. That Sunnis will see Allah BEFORE getting to Paradise. (This contradicts other "authentic" ahadith which state that they will only see Him AFTER getting into Paradise.)

2. Hypocrites too will see Allah. (This contradicts the general Sunni 'aqidah that only believers will see Him.)
 

Edited by أبو فاطمة المحمدي

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2 hours ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

 

This hadith indicates two things:

1. That Sunnis will see Allah BEFORE getting to Paradise. (This contradicts other "authentic" ahadith which state that they will only see Him AFTER getting into Paradise.)

2. Hypocrites too will see Allah. (This contradicts the general Sunni 'aqidah that only believers will see Him.)
 

W. A. Salaam, brother,

This hadith and those similar to it also contradict sheer intellect and reason. How can a finite creature conceive an infinite being?

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51 minutes ago, sadegh said:

W. A. Salaam, brother,

This hadith and those similar to it also contradict sheer intellect and reason. How can a finite creature conceive an infinite being?

i dont think calling him a "being" is correct, because that would indicate that there is more than one as if he is a part of a species, which is not correct when He is unique and one and only 

Edited by neverforgotten313

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6 minutes ago, neverforgotten313 said:

i dont think calling him a "being" is correct, because that would indicate that there is more than one as if he is a part of a species, which is not correct when He is unique and one and only 

Being is equal to existent, and when you add to it the attribute of "infinite" it cannot be applied to any thing other than Allah s,w,t. This is what I thought.

But anyway, what do you suggest?

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7 hours ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

"Being" means "existent."

Allah exists.

Therefore, He is a Being.

Yes that's true, In one of Imam Ali(as)'s sermons in Najhul Balagha, Imam Ali(as) says that Allah IS a being, but not through the phenomenon of coming into being.

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21 hours ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

That Sunnis will see Allah BEFORE getting to Paradise. (This contradicts other "authentic" ahadith which state that they will only see Him AFTER getting into Paradise.)
 

Before dealing with the unsophisticated OP... I would like to know where it says that 'they will only see Him AFTER getting into Paradise'? I may have missed the narration. Thanks

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2 hours ago, Bukhari8k said:

Before dealing with the unsophisticated OP... I would like to know where it says that 'they will only see Him AFTER getting into Paradise'? I may have missed the narration. Thanks

This is from OP as Ibn Kathir mentions:

Quote

The believers seeing Allah in the abode of the Hereafter has been confirmed in the authentic Hadiths from numerous routes of transmission with the scholars of Hadith. It is not possible to deny this or refuse it.

Where is the abode of the believers?

Also:

Quote

Among the Hadiths, which Muslim was alone in recording, is a narration from Suhayb that the Prophet said, (When the people of Paradise enter the Paradise, Allah will say, `Do you want me to give you anything extra' They will say, `Haven't you whitened our faces Haven't you entered us into Paradise and saved us from the Fire' Then He will remove the veil and they will not be given anything more beloved to them than looking at their Lord, and that will be the extra (Ziyadah).) Then he recited this Ayah, (For those who have done good is the best and extra (Ziyadah).) (10:26)

 

Edited by Inquisitor

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24 minutes ago, Inquisitor said:

This is from OP as Ibn Kathir mentions:

Where is the abode of the believers?

Also:

 

My question was  'they will only see Him AFTER getting into Paradise' and 'not before that'... where is that? None of the narrations that you have re-quoted suggest so...

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On 2/26/2016 at 4:27 PM, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

As-Salam 'Alaikum,

2. There is no difference between seeing Allah and seeing the moon. Both are seen in exactly the same manners.

The problem here, however, is that Sunnis will see Allah in exactly the same way that they see the moon. This is "authentically" transmitted in their ahadith. So, do you see the moon "without encompassment, delimitation within any given limit, whether from the front, the back, above, below, right, or left"? Of course, we see the moon above us - in a specific direction!

 

:ws:

Thank you Abu fatima for this post. It is very informative. I agree it is very difficult to understand those hadiths metaphorically. I, for one, have a hard time getting to wrap my head around the fact that Allah can be seen - in whatever "form". I don't even understand when scholars say that He can be seen with a vision, without explaining how. 

I don't even know what that means.

I was going to argue with a statement but then it is difficult to defend it when the hadith says that one will see Allah as they see the moon.

What do other sunni brothers have to say regarding this issue? Do you people agree that Allah is a being that can be seen? @Bukhari8k @sunnilove2hussain @Student_of_Deen

 

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3 hours ago, Sunnibro said:

:ws:

Thank you Abu fatima for this post. It is very informative. I agree it is very difficult to understand those hadiths metaphorically. I, for one, have a hard time getting to wrap my head around the fact that Allah can be seen - in whatever "form". I don't even understand when scholars say that He can be seen with a vision, without explaining how. 

I don't even know what that means.

I was going to argue with a statement but then it is difficult to defend it when the hadith says that one will see Allah as they see the moon.

What do other sunni brothers have to say regarding this issue? Do you people agree that Allah is a being that can be seen? @Bukhari8k @sunnilove2hussain @Student_of_Deen

 

Brother, If you want to take something from me. 

Me myself regarding the truth, I'm very simple. When I see something that just not fits I reject it right away. 

I dealt like that with the Bible once a christian but also with certain ahaadith or fatawa.

When still a sunni I dod not felt comfortable with certain ahaadith and noticed that a lot of ahaadith contain some Judeo-Christian elements like 'Allah created man in his image'. 

Then all kind of explanations are given to change its meaning while it is actually clear that it is meant otherwise.

Why give a divine status to ahaadith anyway? It's all about the truth and in the end ..

Tawheed is a serious matter.

Edited by Skanderbeg

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11 hours ago, Sunnibro said:

I don't even understand when scholars say that He can be seen with a vision, without explaining how. 

There was a pretty decent article written about this recently. I dont know if you can post links here but you can google Shia and the texts of Tajseem & Tashbeeh for an overview of different views.

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On 2/27/2016 at 7:50 PM, Skanderbeg said:

Brother, If you want to take something from me. 

Me myself regarding the truth, I'm very simple. When I see something that just not fits I reject it right away. 

I dealt like that with the Bible once a christian but also with certain ahaadith or fatawa.

(1)
When still a sunni I dod not felt comfortable with certain ahaadith and noticed that a lot of ahaadith contain some Judeo-Christian elements like 'Allah created man in his image'.
(2)
Then all kind of explanations are given to change its meaning while it is actually clear that it is meant otherwise.

Why give a divine status to ahaadith anyway? It's all about the truth and in the end ..

Tawheed is a serious matter.

@Sunnibro 

1. I said to Al-RiDaa (عليه السلام): ‘O son of the Messenger of Allaah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). The people narrate that the Messenger of Allaah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: “That Allaah (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ) created Adam in His image.” So he(عليه السلام) said: ‘May God kill them! They have deleted the beginning (part) of the hadeeth. The Messenger of Allaah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) passed by two men who were abusing each other.  He (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)heard one of his companions say, ‘May Allaah deform your face and of everyone who resembles you!’  So he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said to him: ‘O `Abd Allaah! Do not say this to your brother since indeed Allaah (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ) created Adam in His image.’”

Source: Al-Sadooq, `Uyoon Al-Akhbaar Al-RiDaa, vol. 1, ch. 11, pg. 119, hadeeth # 12;  Al-Sadooq, Al-TawHeed, ch. 12, pg. 152, hadeeth # 12

2. Regarding explanation which you don't require as your mind is clear but still al-Murtada deems it important to explain the phenomena:

Here is what Al-MurtaDa says:
"It is not necessary that this khabar (hadeeth) apparently implies tashbeeh (likening) and that Allah has an image. We say our answer is: That the ‘haa’ in Sooratuh, if this statement is SaHeeH, is that it goes back to Adam not Allah. And that the meaning is that The Most High (Allaah) created Adam in the image that he was when He seized him (i.e. died). And that he did not change in the image through growth or anything similar like other humans.”
Source:
1.     Al-MurtaDa, Tanzeeh Al-Anbiyaa, pg. 127

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Salam Sunnibro,

The explanation and meaning of the ahaadith about man created in the image of Allah according to a Salafi Q&A site:
 

Quote

 

Praise be to Allaah.  

 

Al-Bukhaari (6227) and Muslim (2841) narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah created Adam in His image, and he was sixty cubits tall. When he created him he said, ‘Go and greet that group of angels who are sitting and listen to how they greet you, for that will be your greeting and the greeting of your descendents.’ So he said, ‘Al-salaamu ‘alaykum (peace be upon you),’ and they said, ‘Al-salaamu ‘alayka wa rahmat-Allaah (Peace be upon you and the mercy of Allaah.’ So they added (the words) ‘wa rahmat-Allaah.’ Everyone who enters Paradise will be in the form of Adam, but mankind continued to grow shorter until now.” 

Muslim (2612) narrated that Abu Hurayrah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When any one of fights his brother, let him avoid the face, for Allaah created Adam in His image.” 

Ibn Abi ‘Aasim narrated in al-Sunnah (517) that Ibn ‘Umar said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not say ‘May Allaah deform your face’ [a form of cursing in Arabic], for the son of Adam was created in the image of the Most Merciful.” Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn al-Ghunaymaan (may Allaah preserve him) said: “This hadeeth is saheeh and was classed as such by the imams and by Imam Ahmad and Ishaaq ibn Raahawayh. Those who classed it as da’eef have no evidence, except for the view of Ibn Khuzaymah, but those who classed it as saheeh are more knowledgeable than him. 

Ibn Abi ‘Aasim also narrated (516) that Abu Hurayrah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When any one of you fights let him avoid the face, for Allaah created Adam in the image of His Face.” Shaykh al-Albaani said: its isnaad is saheeh. 

These two hadeeth indicate that the pronoun in the phrase “in His image” refers to Allaah, may He be glorified. 

Al-Tirmidhi (3234) narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “My Lord came to me in the most beautiful image and said, ‘O Muhammad.’ I said, ‘Here I am at Your service, my Lord.’ He said, ‘What are the chiefs (angels) on high disputing about…’” Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi

According to the lengthy hadeeth about intercession, it says, “… then the Compeller (al-Jabbaar) will come to then in an image different than the image in which they saw Him the first time…” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 7440; Muslim, 182. 

From these ahaadeeth we learn that it is proven that Allaah has an image (soorah in Arabic), in a manner that befits Him, may He be glorified and exalted. His image is one of His attributes which cannot be likened to the attributes of created beings, just as His essence cannot be likened to their essence. 

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said: “The word soorah (image) in this hadeeth is like all the other names and attributes narrated (in the texts) where the words used may also be applied to created beings, in a limited manner. When these words are applied to Allaah, they carry a unique meaning, such as al-‘Aleem (All Knowing), al-Qadeer (All-Powerful), al-Raheem (Most Merciful), al-Samee’ (All Hearing), al-Baseer (All-Seeing), and such as His creating with His hands, rising above the Throne, etc.” Naqd al-Ta’sees, 3/396 

 Everything that exists must inevitably have a form or image. Shaykh al-Islam said: “Just as everything that exists must have attributes that, so too everything that exists by itself must have a form or image. It is impossible for something that exists by itself not to have a form or image.” 

And he said: “There was no dispute among the salaf of the first three generations that the pronoun in the hadeeth refers to Allaah, and it is narrated through many isnaads from many of the Sahaabah. The contexts of the ahaadeeth all indicate that… but when al-Jahamiyyah became widespread in the third century AH, a group began to say that the pronoun refers to something other than Allaah, and this was transmitted from a group of scholars who are known to have knowledge and to follow the Sunnah in most of their affairs, such as Abu Thawr, Ibn Khuzaymah, Abu’l-Shaykh al-Asfahaani and others. Hence they were denounced by the imams of Islam and other Sunni scholars.”  

Naqd al-Ta’sees, 3/202 

Ibn Qutaybah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “That Allaah should have an image is no stranger than His having two hands, fingers or eyes. Rather those are readily accepted because they are mentioned in the Qur’aan, but this idea (image or form) is regarded as strange because it is not mentioned in the Qur’aan. But we believe in them all, but we do not discuss how any of them are.” 

Ta’weel Mukhtalif al-Hadeeth, p. 221 

Shaykh al-Ghunaymaan said: “Thus it is clear that the form or image is like all the other divine attributes. Any attribute which Allaah has affirmed in the Revelation, we must affirm it and believe in it.” 

Sharh Kitaab al-Tawheed min Saheeh al-Bukhaari, 2/41 

Shaykh Ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked: There is a hadeeth narrated from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in which he forbids saying “May Allaah deform your face”, and says that Allaah created Adam in His image. What is the correct belief with regard to this hadeeth? 

He replied: 

This hadeeth is proven from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), in which he said: “If any one of you strikes (another), let him avoid the face, for Allaah created Adam in His image.” According to another version: “In the image of the Most Merciful.” This does not imply resemblance or likeness. 

What is meant, according to the scholars, is that Allaah created Adam with the ability to hear and see, and to speak when he wants. These are also attributes of Allaah, for He is All-Hearing, All-Seeing, and He speaks when He wants, and He has a Face, may He be glorified and exalted. 

But it does not mean that there is any resemblance or likeness. Rather the image of Allaah is different from that of created beings. What is meant is that He is All-Hearing, All-Seeing, and He speaks when He wants, and He created Adam also able to hear and see, with a face and hands and feet. But man’s hearing is not like Allaah’s hearing, his seeing is not like Allaah’s seeing, his speaking is not like Allaah’s speaking. Rather Allaah has attributes that befit His majesty and might, and man has attributes that befit him, attributes that are finite and imperfect, whereas the attributes of Allaah are perfect, with no shortcomings, infinite and without end. Hence Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

“There is nothing like Him, and He is the All‑Hearer, the All‑Seer”

[al-Shoora 42:11] 

“And there is none co‑equal or comparable unto Him”

[al-Ikhlaas 112:4] 

So it is not permissible to strike the face or say “May Allaah deform your face”. 

End quote. Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh, 4/226 

Another thing that will help to explain the meaning of this hadeeth is the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “The first group to enter Paradise will be in the image of the moon” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3245; Muslim, 2834.” What the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) meant here is that the first group will be in human form, but because of their purity, beauty and brightness of face they will look like the moon, so they are likened to the moon, but without resembling it. So just because a thing is said to be in the image of a thing it does not mean that it is like it in all aspects. 

The Prophet’s words, “Adam was created in His image” means that Allaah created Adam in His image, for He has a face, an eye, a hand, and a foot, and Adam had a face, an eye, a hand, and a foot… but that does not mean that these things are exactly the same. There is some similarity, but it is not exactly the same. Similarly the first group to enter Paradise are likened to the moon, but they are not exactly the same. This confirms the view of Ahl al-Sunnah wa'l-Jamaa'ah, who say that none of the attributes of Allaah can be likened to the attributes of created beings, without distorting or misinterpreting, or discussing how or likening Him to His creation. 

See Sharh al-‘Aqeedah al-Waasitah by Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Uthaymeen, 1/107, 293. 

For more information, see: Sharh Kitaab al-Tawheed min Saheeh al-Bukhaari by Shaykh al-Ghunaymaan, 2/33-98, in which he quotes at length from Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him), refuting the misinterpretation of this hadeeth by ahl al-kalaam and those who agreed with them. 

And Allaah knows best.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Bukhari8k said:

@Sunnibro 

1. I said to Al-RiDaa (عليه السلام): ‘O son of the Messenger of Allaah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). The people narrate that the Messenger of Allaah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: “That Allaah (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ) created Adam in His image.” So he(عليه السلام) said: ‘May God kill them! They have deleted the beginning (part) of the hadeeth. The Messenger of Allaah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) passed by two men who were abusing each other.  He (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)heard one of his companions say, ‘May Allaah deform your face and of everyone who resembles you!’  So he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said to him: ‘O `Abd Allaah! Do not say this to your brother since indeed Allaah (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ) created Adam in His image.’”

Source: Al-Sadooq, `Uyoon Al-Akhbaar Al-RiDaa, vol. 1, ch. 11, pg. 119, hadeeth # 12;  Al-Sadooq, Al-TawHeed, ch. 12, pg. 152, hadeeth # 12

2. Regarding explanation which you don't require as your mind is clear but still al-Murtada deems it important to explain the phenomena:

Here is what Al-MurtaDa says:
"It is not necessary that this khabar (hadeeth) apparently implies tashbeeh (likening) and that Allah has an image. We say our answer is: That the ‘haa’ in Sooratuh, if this statement is SaHeeH, is that it goes back to Adam not Allah. And that the meaning is that The Most High (Allaah) created Adam in the image that he was when He seized him (i.e. died). And that he did not change in the image through growth or anything similar like other humans.”
Source:
1.     Al-MurtaDa, Tanzeeh Al-Anbiyaa, pg. 127

Salam, 

It's clear that Al-Murtada isn't comfortable with the hadith as well and tries to de-antropomorphosize it while there are sunni scholars who love to emphasize the claim that man is created in God's image. Must be jewish ancestry or influence or something.

The Judaization of Islam started with the interrest of Umar for the Taurat and consulting the converted jew Ka'ab al-Ahbar. This consulting of him continued during the caliphate of Uthman as well as Muawiya the governor who also consulted him often, 

This Ka'ab told Umar to put the altar of the Dome of the Rock towards the sakhra (Jewish Qiblah).

I can't say that there is no Israiiyat influence in Shi'a ahaadith for there is but there are elements of Israiliyat incorporated in the creed of Sunni Islam and it should be located and erased.

Edited by Skanderbeg

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18 minutes ago, Skanderbeg said:

Salam, 

It's clear that Al-Murtada isn't comfortable with the hadith as well (explanations are given [as you said]) and tries to (to change its meaning while it is actually clear [as you said]) de-antropomorphosize it while there are sunni scholars who love to emphasize the claim that man is created in God's image. Same as in Shia narration(s) and defended by al-Murtada.

Must be jewish ancestry or influence or something. that made roads to Ayun Akhbar a Ridhaa?

The Judaization of Islam started with the interrest of Umar for the Taurat (i know he [ra] was once reading the scripture and was forbidden by his master [saw].... Can you show that he had ever opened that book again after that incident?) and consulting the converted jew Ka'ab al-Ahbar. As you say converted, a Tabai... was not Salman [ra], a prominent sahabi a convert too. This consulting of him continued during the caliphate of Uthman as well as Muawiya the governor who also consulted him often, he must have something useful to tell to them... I don't think that Uthman (ra) made much use of him

This Ka'ab told Umar to put the altar of the Dome of the Rock towards the sakhra (Jewish Qiblah).

Actually, the whole of al-aqsa compound was Jewish qibla and not just sakhra which was small part of it. And this altar was already there inside the al-aqsa compound or the jewish qibla. What Kab had perhaps suggested was to build a mosque on the northern side of the sakhra, however Umar (ra) ordered to build the mosque on its southern side and left sakhra or dome of rock way behind the main praying hall.

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On 2/27/2016 at 0:17 PM, Bukhari8k said:

Before dealing with the unsophisticated OP... I would like to know where it says that 'they will only see Him AFTER getting into Paradise'? I may have missed the narration. Thanks

I quoted this in this OP. You should have read more carefully:

Among the Hadiths, which Muslim was alone in recording, is a narration from Suhayb that the Prophet said, (When the people of Paradise enter the Paradise, Allah will say, `Do you want me to give you anything extra' They will say, `Haven't you whitened our faces Haven't you entered us into Paradise and saved us from the Fire' Then He will remove the veil and they will not be given anything more beloved to them than looking at their Lord, and that will be the extra (Ziyadah).) Then he recited this Ayah, (For those who have done good is the best and extra (Ziyadah).) (10:26)

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14 hours ago, Bukhari8k said:

@Sunnibro 

1. I said to Al-RiDaa (عليه السلام): ‘O son of the Messenger of Allaah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). The people narrate that the Messenger of Allaah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: “That Allaah (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ) created Adam in His image.” So he(عليه السلام) said: ‘May God kill them! They have deleted the beginning (part) of the hadeeth. The Messenger of Allaah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) passed by two men who were abusing each other.  He (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)heard one of his companions say, ‘May Allaah deform your face and of everyone who resembles you!’  So he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said to him: ‘O `Abd Allaah! Do not say this to your brother since indeed Allaah (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ) created Adam in His image.’”

Source: Al-Sadooq, `Uyoon Al-Akhbaar Al-RiDaa, vol. 1, ch. 11, pg. 119, hadeeth # 12;  Al-Sadooq, Al-TawHeed, ch. 12, pg. 152, hadeeth # 12

Where is its authentic sanad?

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On 2/27/2016 at 5:17 PM, Sunnibro said:

:ws:

Thank you Abu fatima for this post. It is very informative. I agree it is very difficult to understand those hadiths metaphorically. I, for one, have a hard time getting to wrap my head around the fact that Allah can be seen - in whatever "form". I don't even understand when scholars say that He can be seen with a vision, without explaining how. 

I don't even know what that means.

I was going to argue with a statement but then it is difficult to defend it when the hadith says that one will see Allah as they see the moon.

What do other sunni brothers have to say regarding this issue? Do you people agree that Allah is a being that can be seen? @Bukhari8k @sunnilove2hussain @Student_of_Deen

 

Walaykum As`salam, 

how about you start reading the Qu`ran then Brother SunniBro ? In`sha Allah that won`t be hard to wrap around your head.

Some faces, that Day, will beam (in brightness and beauty);- Looking towards their Lord. ( Surah Al-Qiyamah 75:22-23)

Edited by Student_of_Deen

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12 hours ago, power said:

I would like to ask my Sunni brothers, did Rasulillah (pbuh&hf) see Allah swt when he went to Miraj?

No, The Prophet (Peace be upon him) did not see Allah when he went to Miraj.

Edited by Student_of_Deen

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38 minutes ago, Student_of_Deen said:

Walaykum As`salam, 

how about you start reading the Qu`ran then Brother SunniBro ? In`sha Allah that won`t be hard to wrap around your head.

Some faces, that Day, will beam (in brightness and beauty);- Looking towards their Lord. ( Surah Al-Qiyamah 75:22-23)

Let me ask you this simple question:

Will you see Allah on the Day of al-Qiyamah itself, or will you see Him only later - after getting to Paradise?

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7 hours ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

I quoted this in this OP. You should have read more carefully:

Among the Hadiths, which Muslim was alone in recording, is a narration from Suhayb that the Prophet said, (When the people of Paradise enter the Paradise, Allah will say, `Do you want me to give you anything extra' They will say, `Haven't you whitened our faces Haven't you entered us into Paradise and saved us from the Fire' Then He will remove the veil and they will not be given anything more beloved to them than looking at their Lord, and that will be the extra (Ziyadah).) Then he recited this Ayah, (For those who have done good is the best and extra (Ziyadah).) (10:26)

No no... i guess you are not understanding what i am talking about...             you said, " That Sunnis will see Allah BEFORE getting to Paradise. (This contradicts other "authentic"ahadith which state that they will only see Him AFTER getting into Paradise.) "

I am actually asking about the "authentic" ahadith that you referred to in the OP, as underlined above. Where is that hadith that state so?

@Student_of_Deen

1 hour ago, silentrepenter_ said:

no idea. 

@Student_of_Deen @silentrepenter_

Remeber that the believers will not see him in this world. Ibn Hibban (d. 354 H.) explained regarding the issue of seeing Allah on the day of judgement and differentiating between Ru'yah and Idrak "...visions do not encompass Him when it sees Him, for Al-Idrak is encompassment, and Ru’yah is looking, and Allah is seen and not encompassed.”

As for Prophet (saw), when asked about whether he saw Allah or not, during ascension... he (saw) said that he (pbuh) saw 'Nur'. Nur is roughly translated as some kind of light and that was an experience without any encompassment like a glimpse that was shown to Prophet (saw) during ascension. 

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5 hours ago, Student_of_Deen said:

Some faces, that Day, will beam (in brightness and beauty);- Looking towards their Lord. ( Surah Al-Qiyamah 75:22-23)

This is a superficial understanding of the meaning of the verse. There is no doubt that the apparent meaning of the words in the Qur'an is not always meant. When the apparent meaning contradicts the sheer logic, we realize that it has not been meant.

A very clear example:

وَ مَنْ كانَ في‏ هذِهِ أَعْمى‏ فَهُوَ فِي الْآخِرَةِ أَعْمى‏ وَ أَضَلُّ سَبيلاً

"But whoever has been blind in this [world], will be blind in the Hereafter, and [even] more astray from the way." [17:72]

The apparent/ superficial meaning is absurd! because it contradicts reason.

The verse you mentioned and the likes of it have another meaning, because the apparent meaning of them is in contradiction with reason.

Argument 1:

- Allah s.w.t. is infinite;

- An infinite thing is definitely immaterial;

> Allah s.w.t. is immaterial.

Argument 2:

- Allah s.w.t. is immaterial;

- An immaterial being is not perceivable (by eyes);

>Allah s.w.t. is not perceivable.

Is there any doubt about any of the premises or conclusions?

Edited by sadegh

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1 hour ago, Bukhari8k said:

No no... i guess you are not understanding what i am talking about...             you said, " That Sunnis will see Allah BEFORE getting to Paradise. (This contradicts other "authentic"ahadith which state that they will only see Him AFTER getting into Paradise.) "

I am actually asking about the "authentic" ahadith that you referred to in the OP, as underlined above. Where is that hadith that state so?

Please stop playing dumb. My time is more precious than to waste explaining simple matters to a dumb man, or to a man who plays dumb.

That hadith claims that Sunnis will see Allah as an "extra" when they get to Paradise. Why do you think it is called an "extra"?

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1 hour ago, Bukhari8k said:

Remeber that the believers will not see him in this world. Ibn Hibban (d. 354 H.) explained regarding the issue of seeing Allah on the day of judgement and differentiating between Ru'yah and Idrak "...visions do not encompass Him when it sees Him, for Al-Idrak is encompassment, and Ru’yah is looking, and Allah is seen and not encompassed.”

Throwing around meaningless expressions does not exactly help matters.

So, explain what you mean by "encompassment", and what you mean by "looking." Also, what do you mean with your claim that Allah will be seen but not "encompassed."

Quote

As for Prophet (saw), when asked about whether he saw Allah or not, during ascension... he (saw) said that he (pbuh) saw 'Nur'. Nur is roughly translated as some kind of light and that was an experience without any encompassment like a glimpse that was shown to Prophet (saw) during ascension. 

How did you miss this in the OP?

On 2/26/2016 at 2:27 PM, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

This is a Sufi opinion on this matter:

Let us now move towards the Arabic of first hadith which actually proves without doubt that Prophet (Peace be upon him) actually said that "He saw Allah"

حدّثنا أَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ أَبِي شَيْبَةَ : حَدَّثَنَا وَكِيعٌ عَنْ يَزِيدَ بْنِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ قَتَادَةَ عَنْ عَبْدِ اللّهِ بْنِ شَقِيقٍ عَنْ أَبِي ذَرٍّ ، قَالَ: سَأَلْتُ رَسُولَ اللّهِ: هَلْ رَأَيْتَ رَبَّكَ؟ قَالَ: «نُورٌ انى أَرَاهُ»؟.

Translation of Matn: Narrated by Abu Dharr (RA): I asked the Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him): Did you see your Lord? The Prophet (Peace be upon him) replied: He is Nur (نُورٌ) I Saw Him ( انى أَرَاهُ) [Sahih Muslim, Hadith # 351, Hadith number from Sharh Sahih Muslim by Allama Ghulam Rasool Sa’eedi – Damat Barkatahum Alia]

This is the perfect translation which actually proves that Prophet (Peace be upon him) did indeed see Allah.

In other words, the Prophet allegedly saw Allah with the very same eyes he used to see Abu Bakr and 'Umar, in Makkah and al-Madinah.

Here is another Sufi website which repeats the same thing:

Here is a detailed article with proofs from Qur'an al Kareem, Ahadith an-Nabawi (Sallallaho Alaihi Wasallam), Sayings of the Noble Sahaba and from the writings of great and authentic scholars of Islam that the Messenger of Allah Sallallahu Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wa Sallam did see Allah with his naked eyes and he also did proceed to the Divine Arsh on the night of Me'raj.

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11 hours ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Please stop playing dumb. My time is more precious than to waste explaining simple matters to a dumb man, or to a man who plays dumb.

That hadith claims that Sunnis will see Allah as an "extra" when they get to Paradise. Why do you think it is called an "extra"?

Unfortunately, you are blessed with a lot of immaturity, bro and the worst is that you are proud of that! I usually avoid a typical bigot but unfortunately got involved with over here.

Actually, that is a very odd and very wrong interpretation. You presumption that the "extra" here means "that Allah will not remove the veil on the day of judgement, and this will happen in the paradise for the first time ever"?


Whereas, the "extra" simply means, that after Allah has entered them into Paradise, He is going to reward them further by allowing His sight. 

`Haven't you whitened our faces Haven't you entered us into Paradise.... He will remove the veil and they will not be given anything more beloved to them than looking at their Lord, and that will be the extra (Ziyadah).

Edited by Bukhari8k

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19 hours ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Let me ask you this simple question:

Will you see Allah on the Day of al-Qiyamah itself, or will you see Him only later - after getting to Paradise?

the verse i posted answers your question. 

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15 hours ago, Bukhari8k said:

@Student_of_Deen

@Student_of_Deen @silentrepenter_

Remeber that the believers will not see him in this world. Ibn Hibban (d. 354 H.) explained regarding the issue of seeing Allah on the day of judgement and differentiating between Ru'yah and Idrak "...visions do not encompass Him when it sees Him, for Al-Idrak is encompassment, and Ru’yah is looking, and Allah is seen and not encompassed.”

As for Prophet (saw), when asked about whether he saw Allah or not, during ascension... he (saw) said that he (pbuh) saw 'Nur'. Nur is roughly translated as some kind of light and that was an experience without any encompassment like a glimpse that was shown to Prophet (saw) during ascension. 

brother i agree with you therefore i did not said believers will see Allah in this world. 

But the verse i quoted from the Holy Qu`ran proves those ahadiths are valid. 

Some faces, that Day, will beam (in brightness and beauty);- Looking towards their Lord. ( Surah Al-Qiyamah 75:22-23)

Edited by Student_of_Deen

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14 hours ago, sadegh said:

This is a superficial understanding of the meaning of the verse. There is no doubt that the apparent meaning of the words in the Qur'an is not always meant. When the apparent meaning contradicts the sheer logic, we realize that it has not been meant.

A very clear example:

وَ مَنْ كانَ في‏ هذِهِ أَعْمى‏ فَهُوَ فِي الْآخِرَةِ أَعْمى‏ وَ أَضَلُّ سَبيلاً

"But whoever has been blind in this [world], will be blind in the Hereafter, and [even] more astray from the way." [17:72]

The apparent/ superficial meaning is absurd! because it contradicts reason.

The verse you mentioned and the likes of it have another meaning, because the apparent meaning of them is in contradiction with reason.

Argument 1:

- Allah s.w.t. is infinite;

- An infinite thing is definitely immaterial;

> Allah s.w.t. is immaterial.

Argument 2:

- Allah s.w.t. is immaterial;

- An immaterial being is not perceivable (by eyes);

>Allah s.w.t. is not perceivable.

Is there any doubt about any of the premises or conclusions?

i don`t interpret the verse as per my limited knowledge & understanding just because i can`t understand it. 

i don`t claim to know how they will be looking towards Allah and i`m not claiming they will be able to perceive Allah because Allah is infinite but the words are clear that some Righteous servants of Allah will be actually looking towards Allah on the day of Judgment. 

 

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4 hours ago, Student_of_Deen said:

i don`t interpret the verse as per my limited knowledge & understanding just because i can`t understand it. 

i don`t claim to know how they will be looking towards Allah and i`m not claiming they will be able to perceive Allah because Allah is infinite but the words are clear that some Righteous servants of Allah will be actually looking towards Allah on the day of Judgment. 

 

Very good answer brother. If you mean that broad meaning of looking, we also believe in it. Look at theses hadeeths:

عَمِيَتْ عَيْنٌ لَا تَرَاكَ وَ لَا تَزَالُ عَلَيْهَا رَقِيباً

In du'a of Arafah, Imam Husayn a.s. states, "Blind be the eye that cannot see You, while You are constantly watching over it."

[Bihaar al-Anwaar, vol. 64, pg. 142.]

عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ: بَيْنَا أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع يَخْطُبُ عَلَى مِنْبَرِ الْكُوفَةِ إِذْ قَامَ إِلَيْهِ رَجُلٌ يُقَالُ لَهُ ذِعْلِبٌ‏ ذُو لِسَانٍ بَلِيغٍ فِي الْخُطَبِ شُجَاعُ الْقَلْبِ فَقَالَ يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ هَلْ رَأَيْتَ رَبَّكَ قَالَ وَيْلَكَ يَا ذِعْلِبُ مَا كُنْتُ أَعْبُدُ رَبّاً لَمْ أَرَهُ فَقَالَ يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ كَيْفَ رَأَيْتَهُ قَالَ وَيْلَكَ يَا ذِعْلِبُ لَمْ تَرَهُ الْعُيُونُ بِمُشَاهَدَةِ الْأَبْصَارِ وَ لَكِنْ رَأَتْهُ الْقُلُوبُ بِحَقَائِقِ الْإِيمَان‏

Narrated from Imam as-Saadiq a.s.: "As the commander of the faithful was delivering a sermon on the pulpit of [the mosque of] Kufa, a man eloquent in speech, having a brave heart, called Dhi'lib, stood up saying, 'O commander of the faithful, have you seen your Lord?' He said, 'Woe to you, o Dhi'lib, I never worship a lord whom I have not seen.' Then he asked, 'O commander of the faithful, how did you see Him?' He said, 'Woe to you, o Dhi'lib, the eyes cannot see Him by looking through sights, rather, the hearts see Him by true faith.'"

[Al-Kaafi, vol. 1, pg. 138]

The Holy Qur'an itself puts an end to this, affirming,

لا تُدْرِكُهُ الْأَبْصارُ وَ هُوَ يُدْرِكُ الْأَبْصارَ وَ هُوَ اللَّطيفُ الْخَبيرُ

"The sights do not apprehend Him, yet He apprehends the sights, and He is the All-attentive, the All-aware." [6:103]

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1 hour ago, sadegh said:

Very good answer brother. If you mean that broad meaning of looking, we also believe in it. Look at theses hadeeths:

عَمِيَتْ عَيْنٌ لَا تَرَاكَ وَ لَا تَزَالُ عَلَيْهَا رَقِيباً

In du'a of Arafah, Imam Husayn a.s. states, "Blind be the eye that cannot see You, while You are constantly watching over it."

[Bihaar al-Anwaar, vol. 64, pg. 142.]

عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ: بَيْنَا أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع يَخْطُبُ عَلَى مِنْبَرِ الْكُوفَةِ إِذْ قَامَ إِلَيْهِ رَجُلٌ يُقَالُ لَهُ ذِعْلِبٌ‏ ذُو لِسَانٍ بَلِيغٍ فِي الْخُطَبِ شُجَاعُ الْقَلْبِ فَقَالَ يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ هَلْ رَأَيْتَ رَبَّكَ قَالَ وَيْلَكَ يَا ذِعْلِبُ مَا كُنْتُ أَعْبُدُ رَبّاً لَمْ أَرَهُ فَقَالَ يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ كَيْفَ رَأَيْتَهُ قَالَ وَيْلَكَ يَا ذِعْلِبُ لَمْ تَرَهُ الْعُيُونُ بِمُشَاهَدَةِ الْأَبْصَارِ وَ لَكِنْ رَأَتْهُ الْقُلُوبُ بِحَقَائِقِ الْإِيمَان‏

Narrated from Imam as-Saadiq a.s.: "As the commander of the faithful was delivering a sermon on the pulpit of [the mosque of] Kufa, a man eloquent in speech, having a brave heart, called Dhi'lib, stood up saying, 'O commander of the faithful, have you seen your Lord?' He said, 'Woe to you, o Dhi'lib, I never worship a lord whom I have not seen.' Then he asked, 'O commander of the faithful, how did you see Him?' He said, 'Woe to you, o Dhi'lib, the eyes cannot see Him by looking through sights, rather, the hearts see Him by true faith.'"

[Al-Kaafi, vol. 1, pg. 138]

The Holy Qur'an itself puts an end to this, affirming,

لا تُدْرِكُهُ الْأَبْصارُ وَ هُوَ يُدْرِكُ الْأَبْصارَ وَ هُوَ اللَّطيفُ الْخَبيرُ

"The sights do not apprehend Him, yet He apprehends the sights, and He is the All-attentive, the All-aware." [6:103]

I also agree it`s not possible to see Allah in this life. Even on the Day of judgment this privilege will given to a few blessed servants of Allah out of all of humanity. 

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