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In the Name of God بسم الله

The non-belief in the Mahdi by some Sunni's

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Salam, 

I have a Sunni colleguae with who I talked about the End of Times and then he mentioned the return of Isa a.s.

Then I added  'and the Mahdi' but then he replied he wasn't sure about the existence of the Mahdi.

I know he did not made this up on his own but because of hearsay as he is not a real student but one who follows authorized imams and some hardline Sunni sheikhs with Salafi aspirations. 

My questions are:

1) If there is a case of invention then should't the belief in the return of Isa a.s. be the first to reject as this belief could be ascribed to Israiliyat, the narratives of converted jews and muslims who added their narratives to our ahaadith while the belief in the Mahdi is much more close to us and last but not least because he a.s. is a son of Muhammad s.a.w., Ahl al-Bayt, Aale Muhammad?

2) Are there Sunni or Salafi scholars who reject the belief in al-Mahdi a.s. or trying to cover it up and if so why?

 

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26 minutes ago, Skanderbeg said:

Salam, 

I have a Sunni colleguae with who I talked about the End of Times and then he mentioned the return of Isa a.s.

Then I added  'and the Mahdi' but then he replied he wasn't sure about the existence of the Mahdi.

I know he did not made this up on his own but because of hearsay as he is not a real student but one who follows authorized imams and some hardline Sunni sheikhs with Salafi aspirations. 

My questions are:

1) If there is a case of invention then should't the belief in the return of Isa a.s. be the first to reject as this belief could be ascribed to Israiliyat, the narratives of converted jews and muslims who added their narratives to our ahaadith while the belief in the Mahdi is much more close to us and last but not least because he a.s. is a son of Muhammad s.a.w., Ahl al-Bayt, Aale Muhammad?

2) Are there Sunni or Salafi scholars who reject the belief in al-Mahdi a.s. or trying to cover it up and if so why?

 

Mahdavism and belief in Mahdi is not only for Shia rather Sunni narrates plenty of Hadiths on Mahdi. There are more than 100 Hadiths that meaningfully are “Motavater”. They admit that more than 20 companions narrated Hadiths about Mahdi from Prophet Muhammad. These are in their famous and main references including: Sonan Ibn Dawood, Sonan Termezi, Ibn Majeh, Mosnad Ahmed, Saheeh Hakim and so on.

If you want more detail please let me know.

Thanks.

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47 minutes ago, mohsenhona said:

Mahdavism and belief in Mahdi is not only for Shia rather Sunni narrates plenty of Hadiths on Mahdi. There are more than 100 Hadiths that meaningfully are “Motavater”. They admit that more than 20 companions narrated Hadiths about Mahdi from Prophet Muhammad. These are in their famous and main references including: Sonan Ibn Dawood, Sonan Termezi, Ibn Majeh, Mosnad Ahmed, Saheeh Hakim and so on.

If you want more detail please let me know.

Thanks.

JazakAllah... which is the earliest book in Shia madhab (reliably transmitted) that mentions al-Mahdi? Thanks

Edited by Bukhari8k
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1 hour ago, Skanderbeg said:

Salam, 

I have a Sunni colleguae with who I talked about the End of Times and then he mentioned the return of Isa a.s.

Then I added  'and the Mahdi' but then he replied he wasn't sure about the existence of the Mahdi.

I know he did not made this up on his own but because of hearsay as he is not a real student but one who follows authorized imams and some hardline Sunni sheikhs with Salafi aspirations. 

My questions are:

1) If there is a case of invention then should't the belief in the return of Isa a.s. be the first to reject as this belief could be ascribed to Israiliyat, the narratives of converted jews and muslims who added their narratives to our ahaadith while the belief in the Mahdi is much more close to us and last but not least because he a.s. is a son of Muhammad s.a.w., Ahl al-Bayt, Aale Muhammad?

2) Are there Sunni or Salafi scholars who reject the belief in al-Mahdi a.s. or trying to cover it up and if so why?

 

He is clearly unaware of the subject and he admitted it but still you are blaming Sunni scholars for it ? Subhan Allah.

1) this is not a case of invention. there are numerous Sahih Ahadith in the Sunni collection which talks about Imam Mahdi.

2) why would the Sunni (For your information Salafis are also Sunnis) deny so many Sahih Hadiths from their collections ? they will only prove they are ignorant of this hadiths by doing so. therefore no Sunni Scholar ever denies the coming of Imam Mahdi.

 

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43 minutes ago, Student_of_Deen said:

He is clearly unaware of the subject and he admitted it but still you are blaming Sunni scholars for it ? Subhan Allah.

1) this is not a case of invention. there are numerous Sahih Ahadith in the Sunni collection which talks about Imam Mahdi.

2) why would the Sunni (For your information Salafis are also Sunnis) deny so many Sahih Hadiths from their collections ? they will only prove they are ignorant of this hadiths by doing so. therefore no Sunni Scholar ever denies the coming of Imam Mahdi.

 

Look, 

My colleguae admitted himself a while ago that an Imam told him that the belief in Mahdi is not a part of belief. Not in the way that it is not obliged to belief in it but that belief in it is not Islam.

I would not have said this if it wasn't the case.

And as an ex-sunni I know there are ahaadith confirming the belief in Imam Mahdi a.s.

So student, verify your facts first or ask me before you hastily draw conclusions.

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44 minutes ago, Student_of_Deen said:

(For your information Salafis are also Sunnis)

But not every Sunni wants to be called a Salafi or even identified with a Salafi.

While all if not most Salafi calls a Sufi a non-Sunni or even a non-muslim so if you want to go specific then mention all the details.

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17 minutes ago, Skanderbeg said:

Look, 

My colleguae admitted himself a while ago that an Imam told him that the belief in Mahdi is not a part of belief. Not in the way that it is not obliged to belief in it but that belief in it is not Islam.

I would not have said this if it wasn't the case.

So student, verify your facts first or ask me before you hastily draw conclusions.

if that was the case then you should have mentioned it in your first post because your post made it look as if your colleague didn`t knew about the narrations about Imam Mahdi. 

Anyways if that is the case then his Imam is misguided and he is agaisnt the Methodology of Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaah. 

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3 minutes ago, Skanderbeg said:

But not every Sunni wants to be called a Salafi or even identified with a Salafi.

While all if not most Salafi calls a Sufi a non-Sunni or even a non-muslim so if you want to go specific then mention all the details.

yes just like but there are disagreements among Shias as well, not every Shia wants to be identified as a Twelver Shia.

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16 minutes ago, Student_of_Deen said:

yes just like but there are disagreements among Shias as well, not every Shia wants to be identified as a Twelver Shia.

What? No brother....

I'm sorry to tell you this but if there's any shia who doesnt recognize the 12 imams, then he's into something else but not really "shiism"...  The foundation of Shiism is based upon the recognition and acceptance of the progeny of our beloved prophet muhammad (SAW) as the proofs of Allah.... (which are, our 12 imams)... nothing less than this.

Jazakallah.

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2 hours ago, fatemah kareema said:

What? No brother....

I'm sorry to tell you this but if there's any shia who doesnt recognize the 12 imams, then he's into something else but not really "shiism"...  The foundation of Shiism is based upon the recognition and acceptance of the progeny of our beloved prophet muhammad (SAW) as the proofs of Allah.... (which are, our 12 imams)... nothing less than this.

Jazakallah.

As`salamu Alaykum,

BaarakAllahu Feek for the post sister. 

 

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2 hours ago, sadegh said:

One of the Differences between Shias and Sunnis in this issue is that most Sunnis believe that Imam Mahdi will be born in the End Times, and that he is not the son of Imam Hassan al-Askari a.s.

good post, May Allah reward you pointing our the differences in brief. 

Imam Hassan al-Askar (ra) died at the young age of 22 and there is no sound report about him which says he was father to a Son. i think most historians agree he didn`t die leaving a son (i.e 12th Imam) behind.

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4 hours ago, sadegh said:

One of the Differences between Shias and Sunnis in this issue is that most Sunnis believe that Imam Mahdi will be born in the End Times, and that he is not the son of Imam Hassan al-Askari a.s.

I believe this is correct.  Where as the Shia view is that "the Mahdi" is the 12th Imam.  The Sunni view is that "the Mahdi" refers to a person that has yet to exist, and someone that will come prior to the return of Isa (a.s.), and possibly prepare the world for his return.

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1 hour ago, Student_of_Deen said:

good post, May Allah reward you pointing our the differences in brief. 

Imam Hassan al-Askar (ra) died at the young age of 22 and there is no sound report about him which says he was father to a Son. i think most historians agree he didn`t die leaving a son (i.e 12th Imam) behind.

Thanks for the complement, brother!

But I should say that it is one of the certain beliefs of the Shia that Imam Mahdi a.f.s. was born to Imam Hassan al-Askari a.s. in the year 255 A.H.

Al-Kaafi narrates 6 hadeeths in the chapterبَابُ الْإِشَارَةِ وَ النَّصِّ إِلَى صَاحِبِ الدَّارِone of which is as follows:

عَلِيُّ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ الْكُوفِيِّ عَنْ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ الْمَكْفُوفِ عَنْ عَمْرٍو الْأَهْوَازِيِّ قَالَ: أَرَانِي أَبُو مُحَمَّدٍ ابْنَهُ وَ قَالَ هَذَا صَاحِبُكُمْ مِنْ بَعْدِي.

Amr al-Ahwaazi said, “Abu Muhammad [Imam al-Askari a.s.] showed me his son and told me, ‘this is your saahib [Imam] after me.’”

The hadeeths in this chapter proves that Imam Mahdi a.s. was born.

There is another chapter after the preceding one titledبَابٌ فِي تَسْمِيَةِ مَنْ رَآهwhich includes 15 hadeeths on the names of those who saw the Imams, one of which is the following:

عَلِيٌّ عَنْ أَبِي عَلِيٍّ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ بْنِ إِدْرِيسَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ أَنَّهُ قَالَ: رَأَيْتُهُ ع بَعْدَ مُضِيِّ أَبِي مُحَمَّدٍ حِينَ أَيْفَعَ وَ قَبَّلْتُ يَدَيْهِ وَ رَأْسَهُ.

Ibraaheem bin Idrees narrated from his father that he said, “I saw him [Imam Mahdi a.s.] after the demise of Abi Muhammad [Imam al-Askari a.s.] when he was a child and kissed his hands and head.”

So, the fact that Imam Mahdi a.s. was born to Imam al-Askari a.s. as the 12th Imam is out of question.

Peace!

 

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6 hours ago, fatemah kareema said:

What? No brother....

I'm sorry to tell you this but if there's any shia who doesnt recognize the 12 imams, then he's into something else but not really "shiism"...  The foundation of Shiism is based upon the recognition and acceptance of the progeny of our beloved prophet muhammad (SAW) as the proofs of Allah.... (which are, our 12 imams)... nothing less than this.

Jazakallah.

Salam, 

Dear sister, 

The foundation of Shi'ism is that succession of the Prophet is a Divine affair and that Allah appointed Imam Ali a.s. through Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. as his successor.

The number of Imams, if imamate has to be an unbroken line or not and the matter of occultation are the diffirences that made the sects while the foundation of all Shia sects is one and the same.
 

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9 hours ago, sakura1994 said:

hazrat Isa / messih R.A were mention in Torah , hazrat Mohamed S.A.W was mention in Bible , Mahdi is not mention in Quran . 

there are numerous hadiths to prove he will be born before the end times and lead the Muslim Ummah against the Dajjal, until Prophet Isa (Peace be upon him) returns. this is a universal consensus of the Muslim Ummah that Imam Mahdi will come, so denying his coming is a big error.

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8 hours ago, Skanderbeg said:

The return of Nabi Isa a.s isn't mentioned in the Quran either but it is in the Bible.

The holy Qu`ran also tells us about the second coming of Jesus (Peace be upon him). 

And indeed, Jesus will be [a sign for] knowledge of the Hour, so be not in doubt of it, and follow Me. This is the straight path. (Qu`ran 43:61)

Yusuf Ali: And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.

there also some indirect references in the Holy Qu`ran which indicate the second coming of Jesus (Peace be upon him) before the day of judgment occurs.

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27 minutes ago, Student_of_Deen said:

The holy Qu`ran also tells us about the second coming of Jesus (Peace be upon him). 

And indeed, Jesus will be [a sign for] knowledge of the Hour, so be not in doubt of it, and follow Me. This is the straight path. (Qu`ran 43:61)

there also some indirect references in the Holy Qu`ran which indicate the second coming of Jesus (Peace be upon him) before the day of judgment occurs.

It seems Arabic is not your mother tongue. And if so then still you did not check it out thoroughly. 

For if you only checked the word by word corpus the words Jesus nor He are nowhere in the verse. 

The last verse before verse 61 which is verse 60 is about angels and not Jesus so there goes your indication.

Must be one of these poor interpretations of the Quran wherewith they try to fit the Quran in some concept so they demolish and change the entire verse with the translation. 


 

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10 hours ago, sakura1994 said:

Mahdi is not mention in Quran . 

The return of Nabi Isa a.s. either (proof given above) but ...

The return of Nabi Isa a.s. is a Biblical narration and the Mahdi a mere Islamic one i.e. revealed in the time of Rasulullah s.a.w. plus the fact that he a.s. is a descendant of him s.a.w. 

So why cling on more to a Judeo-Christian tradition than an Islamic tradition and a person who will lead everyone in prayer including Nabi Isa a.s.?

I don't care if people disbelieve in Imam Mahdi a.s. I only do not understand their levels of priority.

Is it lack of love for Muhammad s.a.w.? I don't know.

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7 minutes ago, Skanderbeg said:

It seems Arabic is not your mother tongue. And if so then still you did not check it out thoroughly. 

For if you only checked the word by word corpus the words Jesus nor He are nowhere in the verse. 

The last verse before verse 61 which is verse 60 is about angels and not Jesus so there goes your indication.

Must be one of these poor interpretations of the Quran wherewith they try to fit the Quran in some concept so they demolish and change the entire verse with the translation. 


 

i agree there is mistake in that Sahih international translation. Jesus (Peace be upon him) name should be in brackets because the reference is made to him but still his name is not mentioned in the verse. BaarakAllahu feek.

Yusuf Ali: And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.

there is a dispute among the scholars regarding who or what shall be a sign for the hour of judgment but the consensus of scholars is that the sign mentioned here is Jesus (Peace be upon him).

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8 minutes ago, Student_of_Deen said:

Jesus (Peace be upon him) name should be in brackets because the reference is made to him but still his name is not mentioned in the verse. BaarakAllahu feek.

Brother, 

When you need brackets to translate the Quran then something is not right. We should translate the core text and not adapt it toward a certain concept or what we wish should stand there.

Same case with Quran 80:1. They put Muhammad's name in brackets while his name is not mentioned at all. This is corrupting the text through the translation and leading believers astray.

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15 minutes ago, Student_of_Deen said:

i agree there is mistake in that Sahih international translation. Jesus (Peace be upon him) name should be in brackets because the reference is made to him but still his name is not mentioned in the verse. BaarakAllahu feek.

Yusuf Ali: And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.

there is a dispute among the scholars regarding who or what shall be a sign for the hour of judgment but the consensus of scholars is that the sign mentioned here is Jesus (Peace be upon him).

another Quranic evidence of the coming of Isa (as) is that every soul has to taste death and Isa (as) has not tasted so Allah would fulfill his promise by sending him back.

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Good discussion, but why should we look so much for a Qur'anic evidence for the name of Imam Mahdi a.s. or the coming of Jesus Christ a.s.?

No Imam has been mentioned in the Qur'an by name.

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Just now, Skanderbeg said:

Brother, 

When you need brackets to translate the Quran then something is not right. We should translate the core text and not adapt it toward a certain concept.

of course the brackets are not part of the verse. they are only there for the understanding of the ordinary reader who does can`t go through the tafsir of every verse in order to Understand it. 

1 minute ago, Skanderbeg said:

Same case with Quran 80:1. They put Muhammad's name in brackets while his name is not mentioned at all. This is corrupting the text through the translation.

then do tell me the correct interpretation of this Ayah, BaarakAllahu feek.

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4 minutes ago, Bukhari8k said:

another Quranic evidence of the coming of Isa (as) is that every soul has to taste death and Isa (as) has not tasted so Allah would fulfill his promise by sending him back.

yes this is exactly what i was referring to by indirect references about the Second coming of Prophet Isa (Peace be upon him).

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13 minutes ago, Student_of_Deen said:

of course the brackets are not part of the verse. they are only there for the understanding of the ordinary reader who does can`t go through the tafsir of every verse in order to Understand it. 

Not at all. It is just the interpretation of the translator and the school he follows.

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Just now, Skanderbeg said:

Not at all. It is just the interpretation of the translator. 

yes that`s what i mean brother. the interpretation of the translator or a scholar of Tafsir used by the translator in order to help the reader understand the verse.

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5 minutes ago, Student_of_Deen said:

yes that`s what i mean brother. the interpretation of the translator or a scholar of Tafsir used by the translator in order to help the reader understand the verse.

According to his understanding. As you already admitted yourself. The case is disputable. 

And regarding concensus. There is concensus that Nabi Isa a.s. will return but let the verses stay as they are instead of incorporating the narration of the belief in his return. 

That's all I ask from the translators. Don't mess with the Quran.

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Just now, Skanderbeg said:

According to his understanding. As you already admitted yourself. The case is disputable. 

yes of course we can dispute with the translator/interpreter`s understanding because all of us can make mistakes.

1 minute ago, Skanderbeg said:

And regarding concensus. There is concensus that Nabi Isa a.s. will return but let the verses stay as they are instead of incorporating the narration of the belief in his return. 

you misunderstood the point of using brackets brother, the translator is not changing the verse itself by using brackets. 

yes that is another thing that his input and also his translation could be wrong.

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On 2/20/2016 at 0:02 AM, Skanderbeg said:

The return of Nabi Isa a.s isn't mentioned in the Quran either but it is in the Bible.

 

On 2/21/2016 at 8:11 AM, Student_of_Deen said:

there are numerous hadiths to prove he will be born before the end times and lead the Muslim Ummah against the Dajjal, until Prophet Isa (Peace be upon him) returns. this is a universal consensus of the Muslim Ummah that Imam Mahdi will come, so denying his coming is a big error.

 

On 2/20/2016 at 0:02 AM, Skanderbeg said:

 

On 2/21/2016 at 8:56 AM, Skanderbeg said:

The return of Nabi Isa a.s. either (proof given above) but ...

The return of Nabi Isa a.s. is a Biblical narration and the Mahdi a mere Islamic one i.e. revealed in the time of Rasulullah s.a.w. plus the fact that he a.s. is a descendant of him s.a.w. 

So why cling on more to a Judeo-Christian tradition than an Islamic tradition and a person who will lead everyone in prayer including Nabi Isa a.s.?

I don't care if people disbelieve in Imam Mahdi a.s. I only do not understand their levels of priority.

Is it lack of love for Muhammad s.a.w.? I don't know.

if it's not mention in Quran then clearly Allah doesn't want us to waste our time caring for it , Islam is copleted with the Quran , Quran is complete book of Allah for guidness , I don't need anything else . 

prophet Mohammed s.a.w was said to be walking Quran mean what prophet Mohammed did was the quarn , and if Mahdi or jesus return was important for muslims then it would have been mention in Quran , but for it not to be mention mean that it doesn't matter to muslims were they come or not , we as muslims should care more about our current situations then caring about something that haven't happen yet . 

if Mahdi come or Isa R.A come then welcome , if they didn't then I am not gonna wait for them my religion Islam is already completed . 

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It was narrated from Anas bin Malik that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:

“Adhering to religion will only become harder and worldly affairs will only become more difficult, and people will only become more stingy, and the Hour will only come upon the worst of people, and the only Mahdi (after Muhammad (ﷺ)) is ‘Eisa bin Maryam.”

Grade: Da’if (Darussalam) 

Reference : Sunan Ibn Majah 4039

In-book reference : Book 36, Hadith 114

English translation : Vol. 5, Book 36, Hadith 4039

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11 hours ago, sakura1994 said:

 

 

if it's not mention in Quran then clearly Allah doesn't want us to waste our time caring for it , Islam is copleted with the Quran , Quran is complete book of Allah for guidness , I don't need anything else . 

prophet Mohammed s.a.w was said to be walking Quran mean what prophet Mohammed did was the quarn , and if Mahdi or jesus return was important for muslims then it would have been mention in Quran , but for it not to be mention mean that it doesn't matter to muslims were they come or not , we as muslims should care more about our current situations then caring about something that haven't happen yet . 

if Mahdi come or Isa R.A come then welcome , if they didn't then I am not gonna wait for them my religion Islam is already completed . 

you are making a mistake because belief in Mahdi (ra) is confirmed by the Qu`ran if you read it carefully. The Qu`ran commands us to obey Allah and his Messenger (Peace be upon him), it tells us that obedience to Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is obedience to Allah because in another place the holy Qu`ran confirms that the Prophet (Peace be upon him) does not gives religious commands from his own desires but what has been revealed to him by Allah.

So if the Prophet (Peace be upon him) commanded us to believe in the coming of one his descendants who will lead the Muslims (until Prophet Isa [Peace be upon him] returns) when Dajjal is wrecking havoc in the world, then we will have to believe in him. otherwise it will be disobedience to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and therefore disobedience to Allah. 

it is another thing that we Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaah does not claims to know the name the real name of Imam Mahdi (ra) because we don`t have any hadith in the Sunni collections which tells us his name. we only know that his name will be similar to Prophet (Peace be upon him) name as indicated in some narrations. 

But as for the belief in Imam Mahdi (ra) then it is a must because it is confirmed by numerous reliable hadiths of the Prophet (Peace be upon him) upon him and there is absolutely no scope of it`s denial. your belief in it has to be solid and unwavering. you cannot say if he appears then i`ll believe in him or else i do not care because this could open the door for denials of other Prophecies (which were revealed to him by Allah of course) of the Prophet (peace be upon him) as well, May Allah protect us all from it. 

 

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