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sunnilove2hussain

Holy Imams of Ahlulbayt (as)

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Assalamu alaikum. This thread will deal with the following questions and please be concise and don't answer,unless you have a solid point and don't use conjectures. 1) Is the imamate from the lineage of husayn (as) proven in the Quran? Don't use qiyas or conjectures or some unknown tafsirs. 2) Why the imamate of children of Hasan (as) not take precedence? 3) Imam Zayd (as) [The followers are zaydis] did he claim imamate? Why didn't his line of imamate rejected by 12ers? 4) Why only once in history,imamate transferred from brother to brother,Hasan (as) to Hussain (as) and all other times father to son? 5) Did all imams appoint their eldest son as imam? Why did imam jafar (ra) not appoint Imam Ismail (ra) ? 6) Did Ali (as) ever mention imamate will be there and is it found ANYWHERE in his nahjal balagha? Also,did he EVER talk about his Wilayah? During his time or his two sons time (Hasan&Hussain (as)') 7. Which Imam first claimed imamate and told his followers,he is a divine imam? Are there any sources that say Such and such imam,told his followers,he is divinely appointed? 8) My personal question,no offence : Is shiaism a birth product of a political group that became defunct and had nowhere to go and created theories for its survival? I mean no offence. Please answer with proofs and not qiyas or conjectures or stories,the questions are pretty much yes or no with proofs,please.

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Salam, brother.

I will try to answer the questions with my limited amount of knowledge. First of all, I want you to bear in mind that the next Imam could not be chosen according to any personal whims or anything like that but that they were all chosen by Allah. So, Imamate might very well be pre-destined also indicated by the fact that we have narrations (one from during Imam Ali's (a) time comes do mind) mentioning all their names.

1.) That depends, really. As you are aware, the concept of Imamah can be found in the Qu'ran and is specified through the traditions. The same could apply in this case because: a narration by Imam ar-Ridha (a) states that Ismail's (a) sacrifice was, actually, ransomed with al-Husayn's (a) after Ibrahim (a) had been told about the tragedy to come and lamented over the killing of al-Husayn (a) (which, apparently, was part of the test after which he became an Imam) - which, ambigous as it is, is to be found in the Qu'ran. Other traditions, furthermore, clarify that due to this sacrifice al-Husayn (a) would give, 9 Imams would emerge from his progeny - at this time (the sacrifice), Ibrahim (a) was tested and made an Imam, Allah made a covenant with him and his family, so, sacrifice and covenant have a connection. I'm copying from another, very informative thread by br. Qa'im:

"When Allah ordered Abraham [a] to slaughter the ram that was brought to him in the place of Ishmael, Abraham [a] had hoped to have slaughtered Ishmael by his hand rather than being ordered to slaughter the ram in his place. This was so that he may regain the feeling in his heart that a father’s heart feels when he slaughters the dearest of his sons by his hand. He wanted to attain the highest of levels from the people of good deeds upon this calamity. So Allah revealed to him, “O Abraham, who is the most beloved of My creation to you?” Abraham said, “O Lord, you have not created a creation who is more beloved to me than your beloved Muhammad .” SoAllah revealed, “O Abraham, is he more beloved to you, or yourself?” Abraham said, “Of course, he is more beloved to me than my own self.” Allah said, “So is his son more beloved to you, or your son?” Abraham said, “His son, of course.” Allah said, “So [what is more painful to your heart:] his son being slaughtered oppressively upon the hands of his enemies, or the slaughtering of your son by your hand in obedience to me?” Abraham said, “O Lord, his slaughter upon the hands of his enemies is more painful to my heart.” Allah said, “O Abraham, a faction that alleges that it is from the Nation of Muhammad will kill his son al-Husayn [a] after him oppressively and with aggression, just as a ram is slaughtered. And by that, my wrath upon them will become obligatory.” So Abraham lamented over that. His heart was pained by that, and he began to weep. So Allah revealed to him, “O Abraham, I have ransomed your lamentation upon the slaughtering of your son Ishmael with your lamentation upon Husayn. And so the highest of levels from the people of good deeds has become obligatory for you for this calamity."

And that is the saying of Allah, “And we have ransomed him with a great sacrifice” (37:107), and there is no power nor ability except by Allah, the High and the Great." (Look up the thread, if you want)

 

2.) There was no Imamate of al-Hasan's (a) children so, what was there to take precedence? None of Imam al-Hasan's (a) children even claimed Imamate for themselves, not even after Karbala. So? What is there to talk about? Oh, and in addition to the above (sorry, I am not copying the Arabic alongside because I am on my tablet and if I use too much formatting and/or Arabic, chances are there will be lines cutting through the text, but this, too, is from the link above): 

Imam as-Sadiq said: When Fatima (a) became pregnant with al-Husayn (a), the Messenger of Allah (s) said to her: Allah عز وجل has gifted a male to you whose name is al-Husayn. He will be killed by my Umma. She said: I do not need it (the killing). He said: Allah عز وجل has made a promise to me regarding him. She said: And what did He promise you? He said: He promised me that He will cause the Imamate after me to come from his loins. So she said: I am pleased. (Keep in mind that Ali and Hasan have already been born and Husayn conceived, so, the line will be continued by Husayn.)

In addition to this: the line of prophethood in Bani Israel was continued through Yusuf's (a) brother, Levi, and not himself. Albeit, there are doubts whether his (a) son was a prophet or not. Still, the point stands: Musa (a) and Harun (a), for example, were from the progeny of Levi and not prophet Yusuf (a). Why the transfer occured, only Allah knows. Similarly, only Allah knows why He wanted the Imamate to continue through al-Husayn (a). And another example is our own prophet and those before him- prophethood transferred from Isaac's (a) children to Ismail's (a).

 

3.) No. At least, there is nothing in our sources that says he did - on the contrary, it seems that he supported his brother (a) and later, nephew (a) (who had fortold him his martyrdom). An Imam does not need to consult others on anything, really. Yet, Zayd did.

 

4.) Well, there are hadiths from RasulAllah (s) stating that the Imamate will only once be held by two brothers, e.g. Hasan and Husayn, and after them, never. Who are we to question the prophet's (s) words? Though, another good explanation: both were beneath the cloak and purified and exalted, both the prophet (s) declared his sons.

Another hadith by Imam ar-Ridha (a): `Ali b. Ibrahim from Muhammad b. `Isa from Yunus from al-Husayn b. Thuwayr b. Abi Fakhta from Abu `Abdillah (a). He said: The Imamate will never be possessed by two brothers after al-Hasan and al-Husayn. It has continued from `Ali b. al-Husayn just as Allah تبارك وتعال said, “And the owners of kinship are closer one to another in the ordinance of Allah…” (33:6). After `Ali b. al-Husayn عليه السلام, it will not be except in the descendants and the descendants of descendants. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 745)

(sahih) (صحيح)

 

5.) No, they did not. Imam Musa (a) is one example and Imam Askari (a), who had an older brother, is another (and there are theories of Ali al-Akbar maybe having been older than Imam as-Sajjad but that is another story, altogether). Why should Imam Sadiq (a) have appointed Ismail when Allah thought that Musa (a) was most fit to be Imam? I am not even sure if at that specific time, people even claimed Ismail was the successor (when Imam Sadiq died and Ismail was already dead (before his father)) although, there were those speaking for Abdullah b. Ja'far (which didn't really hold long). This is like asking, why was Yusuf (a) the next prophet (from Ya'qub's (a) children) and not any other son. Allah chooses not we.

 

8) (Skipping here because the other questions need sources and I'll look them up, in a bit): Well, that is a common misconception especially since Sunnis are a majority so, people falsely believe Shi'a were simply a political movement which emerged later on. I am sure you are very well aware of Ghadir, and Khaybar and the Harun-hadith. We can even go as far back as the moment at which the prophet (s) invited his close family to Islam and Ali was the one who stood up in support thrice- prophet (s) did mention at that time that the one supporting him would hold authority. So, concluding: Shi'a, as such, were "created" by the prophet (s), himself. We even have narrations wherein the prophet (s) would say, "Ali, you and your Shi'a..." And furthermore, during the confrontations with Mu'awiyah, Ali's (a) supporters would be addressed as those "on Ali's deen (religion/faith/way to be followed - way of life (correct shariah))" and not "of his party", leaving aside its correctness/precision.

So, it is safe to say that Shi'a have already been around during the prophet's (s) lifetime. Sunnis, on the other hand...

It being purely political doesn't hold much ground, either, because majority of our Imams were not even politically active. Imam Ali (a) was only for the last few years of his life and Imam Hasan (a) a few months, and Shi'a were havily persecuted - it would have been much safer for them to abandon their beliefs if they wanted to survive, not to cling to them. But dunya is not worth ruining your akhira, is it? People need to realize that the succession of the prophet (s) is not merely a political matter, that is absurd- it encompasses the whole religion: guidance, spirituality etc... Ever read a du'a by an Imam? Ever read their words on Tawheed? Worship? Fiqh issues? Their reach was far beyond politics. From the time of the prophet's (s) death, Shi'a had an Imam to go to (not "nowhere to go") who would guide them, and representatives who would spread the teachings which are supported by ahadith and Qu'ran, not "invented theories".

Besides, the same could be asked of Sunnis, no? Because, history seems to suggest that the term for Sunnis was created during the Umayyad rule (or, Abbasid) and everyone who was not Shi'a was put under its umbrella. 

 

6. and 7.) Well, the Messenger of Allah (s) already appointed Ali at Ghadir and thus, called the people to him, and he (s) does not speak what his Lord does not order him to. So, you can say that it was, actually, the holy prophet (s) who, first, mentioned Imamate (authority after him) and declared it for Ali (a). One article I found on Imamate in Nahjul Balagha (mind you, in there, the Imam (a) talks about the superiority of the Ahlul Bayt more than once): http://www.al-islam.org/articles/perspective-imamat-nahjul-balaghah.

One citation from a sermon (119/120, depending on your edition) - "By Allah, I have knowledge of the conveyance of messages, fulfilment of promises and of entire expressions. We, the people of the house (of the Prophet - Ahlu'l-bayt), possess the doors of wisdom and light of governance (...)" - have a good look at what the Imam says he has knowledge of. Doesn't sound like any normal ruler, does it? Imams inherited from the messenger of Allah (s) and those (prophets) before him (knowledge etc...). And note him mentioning the governance of Ahlu'l-bayt (which is Imamate).

This is not a unique incident, after all, Imam Ali (a) is known as the only man (after the prophet (s)) who told the people "Saluni-Ask me whatever you wish (...)"): Imām `Alī (a) said: “There is not an ayah in the Book of Allāh (awj) except that I know its tafsīr, and in whichever place it was revealed, on a plain or a mountain, and in whatever time it was revealed, in the night or the day.’ – Pointing to his chest – ‘here there is abundant knowledge, but the seekers of it are few, and from the few they will regret when they lose me.’ (al-Sadūq, `Ilal al-Sharā`i’, ed. Muḥammad Ṣādiq Bahr al-`Ulūm, 1 vol. (Najaf, Maktabah al-Ḥaydariyyah, 1385), vol. 1, ch. 38, pg. 40)) - And if that is not calling the people to himself, what is?

 

`Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from ibn Abi `Umayr from `Umar b. Udhayna from Zurara, al-Fudayl b. Yasar, Bukayr b. A`yan, Muhammad b. Muslim, Burayd b. Mu`awiya and Abu’l Jarud together from Abu Ja`far (a).

He said: The wilaya of `Ali was an order from Allah عز وجل to His messenger, and He revealed upon him, “Verily your guardian is Allah, His messenger, and those who believed – who stand in prayer and give the zakat…” (5:55). And He made the wilaya of the Possessors of the Command (ulu ‘l-amr) obligatory, and they did not understand what it was; so Allah ordered Muhammad (s) to interpret [and clarify] the wilaya to them, just as he interpreted salat, zakat, sawm, and Hajj. When Allah gave that [order] to him, the chest of the Messenger of Allah (s) tightened, and he feared that they would apostatize from their religion and bely him – so his chest tightened. He consulted his Lord عز وجل, so Allah عز وجل inspired to him, “O Messenger, preach what is revealed to you from your Lord. If you do not preach, it will be as though you have not conveyed My Message, and Allah will protect you from the people”. (5:67) So he executed the command of Allah تعالى ذكره and declared the wilaya of `Ali (a) on the day of Ghadeer Khumm. He called for a congregational prayer and commanded the people to bear testimony and inform the absent.

 

Another authentic narration to conclude this long post, taken from br. Nader Zaveri's blog:

Aboo Ja`far Al-Thaanee (Imaam Al-Taqee Al-Jawaad) said: "Once Amir al-Mu’minin `Alee (a) came with al-Hassan and al-Husayn and he was holding the hand of Salman for support. He entered the sacred Mosque in Makka and sat down. Then a good looking and well dressed man came. He offered the greeting of peace to Amir al-Mu’minin `Alee (a) who answered his greetings likewise and he sat down. He then said, "I will ask you three questions. If you would answer them I will acknowledge that the people who have acted against you in the matters of leadership after the Holy Prophet (s.a) they have acted against their own selves. Their actions have taken away peace from them in this world as well in the next life. If it would be otherwise, (you can answer) then you and those people will be the same." Amir al-Mu’minin`Alee (a) said, "Ask whatever you would like." He said, "Tell about the man who sleeps. Where does his spirit go?" Tell about the man, how he remembers and forgets? Tell me about the man how do his children become similar to the aunts and uncles?" Amir al-Mu’minin `Alee (a) turned to al-Hassan and said, "O Aboo Muhammad, answer him." The narrator has said that al-Hassan answered his questions. The man then said,

"I testify that there is no lord besides Allah and I continue to testify to this fact. I testify that Muhammad (s) is the Messenger of Allah and I continue to testify to this fact. I testify that you are the executor of the will of the Messenger of Allah and that you are the in charge of this task (Leadership with Divine Authority) with His authorization." He pointed out to Amir al-Mu’minin (a) with his hand. He then said, "I continue to testify to this fact."

"I testify that you are the executor of his (Amir al-Mu’minin’s (a)) will and the in charge of this task (Leadership with Divine Authority) by His authorization after him (Amir alMu’minin (a))." He pointed out with his hand to al-Hassan (a). Then He then said, "I continue to testify to this fact."

"I testify that al-Husayn ibn `Alee (a) will be the executor of the will of his brother and the in charge of this task (Leadership with Divine Authority) with His authorization after him. 

"I testify in support of `Alee ibn al-Husayn (a) that he will be the in charge of the task of al-Husayn after him.

"I testify that Muhammad ibn `Alee will be the in charge of the task of `Alee ibn al-Husayn (a) after him.

"I testify that Ja‘far ibn Muhammad (a) will be the in charge of the task of Muhammad ibn `Alee (a).

"I testify that Moosa (a) will be the in charge of the task of Ja‘far ibn Muhammad after him.

"I testify that `Alee ibn Moosa (a) will be the in charge of the task of Moosa ibn Ja‘far (a).

"I testify that Muhammad ibn `Alee (a) will be the in charge of the task of `Alee ibn Moosa (a) after him.

"I testify that `Alee ibn Muhammad (a) will be the in charge of the task of Muhammad ibn `Alee (a) after him.

"I testify that al-Hassan ibn `Alee (a) will be the in charge of the task of `Alee ibn Muhammad (a) after him.

"I testify in support of a man from the children of al-Hassan who will not be mentioned by his Kunya (father or son of so and so) or his name until he will rise with Divine authority to fill the earth with justice after being filled with injustice."

I offer you my greeting of peace O Amir al-Mu’minin (a) and praay to Allah to grant you blessings and holiness." He then stood up and left. Amir al-Mu’minin (a) said, "O Aboo Muhammad follow him and see where went." Al-Hassan ibn `Alee (a) went out to find out (and came back) and said, "As soon as he stepped out of the Mosque I could not figure out in which direction of the earth of Allah did he disappear. I returned to Amir al-Mu’minin (a) and informed him." He said, "O Aboo Muhammad, do you know him?" I said, Allah, the Messenger of Allah and Amir al-Mu’minin (a) know best." He said, "He was al-Khidr (a)."

 

I just jotted down the little I know. I am sure more knowledgeable brothers and sisters can be of better assistance. 

Ma'asalama.

Edited by Noor al Batul

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1 hour ago, Noor al Batul said:

Salam, brother.

I will try to answer the questions with my limited amount of knowledge. First of all, I want you to bear in mind that the next Imam could not be chosen according to any personal whims or anything like that but that they were all chosen by Allah. So, Imamate might very well be pre-destined also indicated by the fact that we have narrations (one from during Imam Ali's (a) time comes do mind) mentioning all their names.

1.) That depends, really. As you are aware, the concept of Imamah can be found in the Qu'ran and is specified through the traditions. The same could apply in this case because: a narration by Imam ar-Ridha (a) states that Ismail's (a) sacrifice was, actually, ransomed with al-Husayn's (a) after Ibrahim (a) had been told about the tragedy to come and lamented over the killing of al-Husayn (a) (which, apparently, was part of the test after which he became an Imam) - which, ambigous as it is, is to be found in the Qu'ran. Other traditions, furthermore, clarify that due to this sacrifice al-Husayn (a) would give, 9 Imams would emerge from his progeny - at this time (the sacrifice), Ibrahim (a) was tested and made an Imam, Allah made a covenant with him and his family, so, sacrifice and covenant have a connection. I'm copying from another, very informative thread by br. Qa'im:

"When Allah ordered Abraham [a] to slaughter the ram that was brought to him in the place of Ishmael, Abraham [a] had hoped to have slaughtered Ishmael by his hand rather than being ordered to slaughter the ram in his place. This was so that he may regain the feeling in his heart that a father’s heart feels when he slaughters the dearest of his sons by his hand. He wanted to attain the highest of levels from the people of good deeds upon this calamity. So Allah revealed to him, “O Abraham, who is the most beloved of My creation to you?” Abraham said, “O Lord, you have not created a creation who is more beloved to me than your beloved Muhammad .” SoAllah revealed, “O Abraham, is he more beloved to you, or yourself?” Abraham said, “Of course, he is more beloved to me than my own self.” Allah said, “So is his son more beloved to you, or your son?” Abraham said, “His son, of course.” Allah said, “So [what is more painful to your heart:] his son being slaughtered oppressively upon the hands of his enemies, or the slaughtering of your son by your hand in obedience to me?” Abraham said, “O Lord, his slaughter upon the hands of his enemies is more painful to my heart.” Allah said, “O Abraham, a faction that alleges that it is from the Nation of Muhammad will kill his son al-Husayn [a] after him oppressively and with aggression, just as a ram is slaughtered. And by that, my wrath upon them will become obligatory.” So Abraham lamented over that. His heart was pained by that, and he began to weep. So Allah revealed to him, “O Abraham, I have ransomed your lamentation upon the slaughtering of your son Ishmael with your lamentation upon Husayn. And so the highest of levels from the people of good deeds has become obligatory for you for this calamity."

And that is the saying of Allah, “And we have ransomed him with a great sacrifice” (37:107), and there is no power nor ability except by Allah, the High and the Great." (Look up the thread, if you want)

 

2.) There was no Imamate of al-Hasan's (a) children so, what was there to take precedence? None of Imam al-Hasan's (a) children even claimed Imamate for themselves, not even after Karbala. So? What is there to talk about? Oh, and in addition to the above (sorry, I am not copying the Arabic alongside because I am on my tablet and if I use too much formatting and/or Arabic, chances are there will be lines cutting through the text, but this, too, is from the link above): 

Imam as-Sadiq said: When Fatima (a) became pregnant with al-Husayn (a), the Messenger of Allah (s) said to her: Allah عز وجل has gifted a male to you whose name is al-Husayn. He will be killed by my Umma. She said: I do not need it (the killing). He said: Allah عز وجل has made a promise to me regarding him. She said: And what did He promise you? He said: He promised me that He will cause the Imamate after me to come from his loins. So she said: I am pleased. (Keep in mind that Ali and Hasan have already been born and Husayn conceived, so, the line will be continued by Husayn.)

In addition to this: the line of prophethood in Bani Israel was continued through Yusuf's (a) brother, Levi, and not himself. Albeit, there are doubts whether his (a) son was a prophet or not. Still, the point stands: Musa (a) and Harun (a), for example, were from the progeny of Levi and not prophet Yusuf (a). Why the transfer occured, only Allah knows. Similarly, only Allah knows why He wanted the Imamate to continue through al-Husayn (a). And another example is our own prophet and those before him- prophethood transferred from Isaac's (a) children to Ismail's (a).

 

3.) No. At least, there is nothing in our sources that says he did - on the contrary, it seems that he supported his brother (a) and later, nephew (a) (who had fortold him his martyrdom). An Imam does not need to consult others on anything, really. Yet, Zayd did.

 

4.) Well, there are hadiths from RasulAllah (s) stating that the Imamate will only once be held by two brothers, e.g. Hasan and Husayn, and after them, never. Who are we to question the prophet's (s) words? Though, another good explanation: both were beneath the cloak and purified and exalted, both the prophet (s) declared his sons.

Another hadith by Imam ar-Ridha (a): `Ali b. Ibrahim from Muhammad b. `Isa from Yunus from al-Husayn b. Thuwayr b. Abi Fakhta from Abu `Abdillah (a). He said: The Imamate will never be possessed by two brothers after al-Hasan and al-Husayn. It has continued from `Ali b. al-Husayn just as Allah تبارك وتعال said, “And the owners of kinship are closer one to another in the ordinance of Allah…” (33:6). After `Ali b. al-Husayn عليه السلام, it will not be except in the descendants and the descendants of descendants. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 745)

(sahih) (صحيح)

 

5.) No, they did not. Imam Musa (a) is one example and Imam Askari (a), who had an older brother, is another (and there are theories of Ali al-Akbar maybe having been older than Imam as-Sajjad but that is another story, altogether). Why should Imam Sadiq (a) have appointed Ismail when Allah thought that Musa (a) was most fit to be Imam? I am not even sure if at that specific time, people even claimed Ismail was the successor (when Imam Sadiq died and Ismail was already dead (before his father)) although, there were those speaking for Abdullah b. Ja'far (which didn't really hold long). This is like asking, why was Yusuf (a) the next prophet (from Ya'qub's (a) children) and not any other son. Allah chooses not we.

 

8) (Skipping here because the other questions need sources and I'll look them up, in a bit): Well, that is a common misconception especially since Sunnis are a majority so, people falsely believe Shi'a were simply a political movement which emerged later on. I am sure you are very well aware of Ghadir, and Khaybar and the Harun-hadith. We can even go as far back as the moment at which the prophet (s) invited his close family to Islam and Ali was the one who stood up in support thrice- prophet (s) did mention at that time that the one supporting him would hold authority. So, concluding: Shi'a, as such, were "created" by the prophet (s), himself. We even have narrations wherein the prophet (s) would say, "Ali, you and your Shi'a..." And furthermore, during the confrontations with Mu'awiyah, Ali's (a) supporters would be addressed as those "on Ali's deen (religion/faith/way to be followed - way of life (correct shariah))" and not "of his party", leaving aside its correctness/precision.

So, it is safe to say that Shi'a have already been around during the prophet's (s) lifetime. Sunnis, on the other hand...

It being purely political doesn't hold much ground, either, because majority of our Imams were not even politically active. Imam Ali (a) was only for the last few years of his life and Imam Hasan (a) a few months, and Shi'a were havily persecuted - it would have been much safer for them to abandon their beliefs if they wanted to survive, not to cling to them. But dunya is not worth ruining your akhira, is it? People need to realize that the succession of the prophet (s) is not merely a political matter, that is absurd- it encompasses the whole religion: guidance, spirituality etc... Ever read a du'a by an Imam? Ever read their words on Tawheed? Worship? Fiqh issues? Their reach was far beyond politics. From the time of the prophet's (s) death, Shi'a had an Imam to go to (not "nowhere to go") who would guide them, and representatives who would spread the teachings which are supported by ahadith and Qu'ran, not "invented theories".

Besides, the same could be asked of Sunnis, no? Because, history seems to suggest that the term for Sunnis was created during the Umayyad rule (or, Abbasid) and everyone who was not Shi'a was put under its umbrella. 

 

6. and 7.) Well, the Messenger of Allah (s) already appointed Ali at Ghadir and thus, called the people to him, and he (s) does not speak what his Lord does not order him to. So, you can say that it was, actually, the holy prophet (s) who, first, mentioned Imamate (authority after him) and declared it for Ali (a). One article I found on Imamate in Nahjul Balagha (mind you, in there, the Imam (a) talks about the superiority of the Ahlul Bayt more than once): http://www.al-islam.org/articles/perspective-imamat-nahjul-balaghah.

One citation from a sermon (119/120, depending on your edition) - "By Allah, I have knowledge of the conveyance of messages, fulfilment of promises and of entire expressions. We, the people of the house (of the Prophet - Ahlu'l-bayt), possess the doors of wisdom and light of governance (...)" - have a good look at what the Imam says he has knowledge of. Doesn't sound like any normal ruler, does it? Imams inherited from the messenger of Allah (s) and those (prophets) before him (knowledge etc...). And note him mentioning the governance of Ahlu'l-bayt (which is Imamate).

This is not a unique incident, after all, Imam Ali (a) is known as the only man (after the prophet (s)) who told the people "Saluni-Ask me whatever you wish (...)"): Imām `Alī (a) said: “There is not an ayah in the Book of Allāh (awj) except that I know its tafsīr, and in whichever place it was revealed, on a plain or a mountain, and in whatever time it was revealed, in the night or the day.’ – Pointing to his chest – ‘here there is abundant knowledge, but the seekers of it are few, and from the few they will regret when they lose me.’ (al-Sadūq, `Ilal al-Sharā`i’, ed. Muḥammad Ṣādiq Bahr al-`Ulūm, 1 vol. (Najaf, Maktabah al-Ḥaydariyyah, 1385), vol. 1, ch. 38, pg. 40)) - And if that is not calling the people to himself, what is?

 

`Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from ibn Abi `Umayr from `Umar b. Udhayna from Zurara, al-Fudayl b. Yasar, Bukayr b. A`yan, Muhammad b. Muslim, Burayd b. Mu`awiya and Abu’l Jarud together from Abu Ja`far (a).

He said: The wilaya of `Ali was an order from Allah عز وجل to His messenger, and He revealed upon him, “Verily your guardian is Allah, His messenger, and those who believed – who stand in prayer and give the zakat…” (5:55). And He made the wilaya of the Possessors of the Command (ulu ‘l-amr) obligatory, and they did not understand what it was; so Allah ordered Muhammad (s) to interpret [and clarify] the wilaya to them, just as he interpreted salat, zakat, sawm, and Hajj. When Allah gave that [order] to him, the chest of the Messenger of Allah (s) tightened, and he feared that they would apostatize from their religion and bely him – so his chest tightened. He consulted his Lord عز وجل, so Allah عز وجل inspired to him, “O Messenger, preach what is revealed to you from your Lord. If you do not preach, it will be as though you have not conveyed My Message, and Allah will protect you from the people”. (5:67) So he executed the command of Allah تعالى ذكره and declared the wilaya of `Ali (a) on the day of Ghadeer Khumm. He called for a congregational prayer and commanded the people to bear testimony and inform the absent.

 

Another authentic narration to conclude this long post, taken from br. Nader Zaveri's blog:

Aboo Ja`far Al-Thaanee (Imaam Al-Taqee Al-Jawaad) said: "Once Amir al-Mu’minin `Alee (a) came with al-Hassan and al-Husayn and he was holding the hand of Salman for support. He entered the sacred Mosque in Makka and sat down. Then a good looking and well dressed man came. He offered the greeting of peace to Amir al-Mu’minin `Alee (a) who answered his greetings likewise and he sat down. He then said, "I will ask you three questions. If you would answer them I will acknowledge that the people who have acted against you in the matters of leadership after the Holy Prophet (s.a) they have acted against their own selves. Their actions have taken away peace from them in this world as well in the next life. If it would be otherwise, (you can answer) then you and those people will be the same." Amir al-Mu’minin`Alee (a) said, "Ask whatever you would like." He said, "Tell about the man who sleeps. Where does his spirit go?" Tell about the man, how he remembers and forgets? Tell me about the man how do his children become similar to the aunts and uncles?" Amir al-Mu’minin `Alee (a) turned to al-Hassan and said, "O Aboo Muhammad, answer him." The narrator has said that al-Hassan answered his questions. The man then said,

"I testify that there is no lord besides Allah and I continue to testify to this fact. I testify that Muhammad (s) is the Messenger of Allah and I continue to testify to this fact. I testify that you are the executor of the will of the Messenger of Allah and that you are the in charge of this task (Leadership with Divine Authority) with His authorization." He pointed out to Amir al-Mu’minin (a) with his hand. He then said, "I continue to testify to this fact."

"I testify that you are the executor of his (Amir al-Mu’minin’s (a)) will and the in charge of this task (Leadership with Divine Authority) by His authorization after him (Amir alMu’minin (a))." He pointed out with his hand to al-Hassan (a). Then He then said, "I continue to testify to this fact."

"I testify that al-Husayn ibn `Alee (a) will be the executor of the will of his brother and the in charge of this task (Leadership with Divine Authority) with His authorization after him. 

"I testify in support of `Alee ibn al-Husayn (a) that he will be the in charge of the task of al-Husayn after him.

"I testify that Muhammad ibn `Alee will be the in charge of the task of `Alee ibn al-Husayn (a) after him.

"I testify that Ja‘far ibn Muhammad (a) will be the in charge of the task of Muhammad ibn `Alee (a).

"I testify that Moosa (a) will be the in charge of the task of Ja‘far ibn Muhammad after him.

"I testify that `Alee ibn Moosa (a) will be the in charge of the task of Moosa ibn Ja‘far (a).

"I testify that Muhammad ibn `Alee (a) will be the in charge of the task of `Alee ibn Moosa (a) after him.

"I testify that `Alee ibn Muhammad (a) will be the in charge of the task of Muhammad ibn `Alee (a) after him.

"I testify that al-Hassan ibn `Alee (a) will be the in charge of the task of `Alee ibn Muhammad (a) after him.

"I testify in support of a man from the children of al-Hassan who will not be mentioned by his Kunya (father or son of so and so) or his name until he will rise with Divine authority to fill the earth with justice after being filled with injustice."

I offer you my greeting of peace O Amir al-Mu’minin (a) and praay to Allah to grant you blessings and holiness." He then stood up and left. Amir al-Mu’minin (a) said, "O Aboo Muhammad follow him and see where went." Al-Hassan ibn `Alee (a) went out to find out (and came back) and said, "As soon as he stepped out of the Mosque I could not figure out in which direction of the earth of Allah did he disappear. I returned to Amir al-Mu’minin (a) and informed him." He said, "O Aboo Muhammad, do you know him?" I said, Allah, the Messenger of Allah and Amir al-Mu’minin (a) know best." He said, "He was al-Khidr (a)."

 

I just jotted down the little I know. I am sure more knowledgeable brothers and sisters can be of better assistance. 

Ma'asalama.

Are you really serious about point no.1? OMA! What kind of a story is that,it has no basis,whatsoever. You just pull a verse from the Quran and have your own tafsir ? Which major scholar approvs this story? Does it even have a slightest proof from Sunni side? Usually Shias back up with Sunni proofs'. Does it have any or slightest hint from sunni sources?

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1 hour ago, sunnilove2hussain said:

Are you really serious about point no.1? OMA! What kind of a story is that,it has no basis,whatsoever. You just pull a verse from the Quran and have your own tafsir ? Which major scholar approvs this story? Does it even have a slightest proof from Sunni side? Usually Shias back up with Sunni proofs'. Does it have any or slightest hint from sunni sources?

You know, when someone gets rude (the tone of your reply is), you know not to take them seriously, anymore. Have you even read the thread I linked you to? Obviously not, otherwise you would know where this incident stands. This (ransomed with a great sacrifice, the "story") is a possibility since it was narrated in a(n authentic) hadith (so much for no basis...) - and it doesn't seem that far-fetched, if we're honest (and open, but, alas). Even if you don't accept it, the point still stands: the Imamate was, most likely, continued through the progeny of al-Husayn (a) because of the sacrifice he (a) gave. If you want a simpler one: because Allah ordained it so.

And lol, why should I back it up with Sunni proofs? What has this even to do with Sunnis? I wasn't trying to prove anything to you, not everything is about polemics and whatnot- You just wanted explanations (from us) and I provided you some, take them or leave them. One could debate them endlessly, after all.

That's probably my cue to step back from this thread. I hope you can keep it civil with others.

Ma'asalama.

Edited by Noor al Batul

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1 hour ago, Noor al Batul said:

You know, when someone gets rude (the tone of your reply is), you know not to take them seriously, anymore. Have you even read the thread I linked you to? Obviously not, otherwise you would know where this incident stands. This (ransomed with a great sacrifice, the "story") is a possibility since it was narrated in a(n authentic) hadith (so much for no basis...) - and it doesn't seem that far-fetched, if we're honest (and open, but, alas). Even if you don't accept it, the point still stands: the Imamate was, most likely, continued through the progeny of al-Husayn (a) because of the sacrifice he (a) gave. If you want a simpler one: because Allah ordained it so.

And lol, why should I back it up with Sunni proofs? What has this even to do with Sunnis? I wasn't trying to prove anything to you, not everything is about polemics and whatnot- You just wanted explanations (from us) and I provided you some, take them or leave them. One could debate them endlessly, after all.

That's probably my cue to step back from this thread. I hope you can keep it civil with others.

Ma'asalama.

I apologise,if my tone sounded rude. I am a vocal supporter of shias and imamah. Ofcourse i haven't yet accepted the Wilayah of Ali (as) but i do accept the imamah of all the imams as spiritual guides and worthy of intercession but not more as more as shias. I want to clarify that i am inturn going to explain most of the concepts back to Sunnis and I need to be well equipped. I am sorry I jumped to conclusions without reading the tread you linked me to. I will Insha'Allah read it and ask a better question.

Edited by sunnilove2hussain

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5 hours ago, sunnilove2hussain said:

Are you really serious about point no.1? OMA! What kind of a story is that,it has no basis,whatsoever. You just pull a verse from the Quran and have your own tafsir ? Which major scholar approvs this story? Does it even have a slightest proof from Sunni side? Usually Shias back up with Sunni proofs'. Does it have any or slightest hint from sunni sources?

You should have gone to your Sunni "shaykhs" in that case.

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3 hours ago, sunnilove2hussain said:

I apologise,if my tone sounded rude. I am a vocal supporter of shias and imamah. Ofcourse i haven't yet accepted the Wilayah of Ali (as) but i do accept the imamah of all the imams as spiritual guides and worthy of intercession but not more as more as shias. I want to clarify that i am inturn going to explain most of the concepts back to Sunnis and I need to be well equipped. I am sorry I jumped to conclusions without reading the tread you linked me to. I will Insha'Allah read it and ask a better question.

No worries, brother. And I see. You don't have to accept this narration, obviously, and as I said, it is a possibility, one that made sense to me. Otherwise, I'd also like to mention that you won't find any clear cut verse that states that Imamate will go to al-Husayn's (a) line (although, I don't know why this is even necessary if one does not even accept the wilayah of the first Imam because, that would be the first step) the same way that you don't find a clear cut verse mentioning all the Imams by name, but there are many ambiguous ones (about Imamate, for example) that are clarified through ahadith. Similarly, our ahadith clarify that the Imamate will continue through al-Husayn (a), so, there's no question about that for us.

I hope you find your answers.

Ma`asalama.

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Salam

There is no explicit verses but implicitly:

Al-Hassan to Al-Hassan has a theme of ten. It is said the 10 Nights are Al-Hassan to Al-Hassan in one hadith, of course, it also referring to the 10 nights in which laylatal qadr can be is possible as well, and both combined can be true. This will go well with the theme of value and that whoever does good, has then ten like it. So we have that coincidence. 

The emphasis on Allah having the fairest of names, most beautiful of names, right before mentioned that there is a people who guide by the truth, can emphasize on this name and why Allah wanted offspring of Hussain to all have nicknames manifesting beauty and we think about their manifestations of beauty due to the name of Hussain must like Allah [swt] emphasize on his names being all beautiful.

Mohammad and Ali go together because of Musa and Harun theme, and the Quran mentions there names together 12 times in the same verse, while 20 times Harun through out. 

If we look at a significance issue is perhaps the emphasis of Tawjeeh to Allah through them (facing Allah through them), and we see the Quran mentions twice "Lord of Musa and Harun" and once "Lord of Harun and Musa".

There exists two Mohammad ibn Ali's and one Ali ibn Mohammad out of the 12 Imams.

Mohammad name is mentioned four times, there exists exactly four Ali's like wise in the 12 Imams....and 4 Mohammads in the 14 Ma'asoomen.

Musa was called Musa according to the bible because he was brought out of the water (it's amazing that Asiya had love of people that she didn't mind using Hebrew nickname).

Jaffar means "river". 

The Quran mentions "you are the best umma brought out for humanity...", and there is a theme in recognizing their path and light, "and had they gone straight, we would of given them abundant water", and there is the middle path with respect to recognizing this reality, neither neglecting them, neither going to extreme.

So we have Musa ibn Jaffar...and these two Imams are right in the Middle.

And Imam Mahdi having the same name of the Rasool of course has wisdom.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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Salam, 

I will and can not anwser all your questions in full depth as my amount of knowledge is insufficient. I'll try to anwser 2 and 4.

But regarding the Why Hussain and not Hassan? - question I can be short. 

Why so many Prophets descended from Jacob (Israel) a.s. and not Ishmael a.s.?

Or

Why did the Last Prophet descend from Ishmael a.s. and not Jacob (Israel) a.s.?

As the statements in above questions are no arguments in itself for a muslim regarding the validity of Prophethood, it isn't an argument either to state that Imamah is not valid as a creed because of the insimultaneous and inequal character of the course of events.

In the end Allah knows what we don't know.

Regarding question 4 about the Imamate passed on from brother to brother.

From where do you have the conviction that it has to be passed from father to son only? Is this a pattern from the Holy Quran when it comes to Prophethood or Kingship or do you believe this because of reason? So from where exactly?



 

Edited by Skanderbeg

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All Muslims agree prophet Muhammad (sawaw) was the last prophet and he is mentioned by name in the Quran. Regarding the caliphate or believing it has been righteous is not a pillar of Islam. So wilayat of Ali (as) has no clear basis in the Quran,Shias can use CONJECTURES to explain and that is not enough. Ofcourse we need hadith for explanation,for example Salah,its atleast mentioned by name in the Quran. Give me one verse in the Quran that Allah (awj) wanted protectors of Sunnah after Muhammad (sawaw) or atleast that Ali is the brother of prophet (sawaw) by name. SO CLEARLY NO TO BOTH. We have to completely rely on hadith which was written by FALLIBLE people?

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You are belittling God's words. Allah [swt] said:

 

Say: no wage do I ask for it except the love of my near kin

Say: whatever wage I have ask of you of it then it is for youselves

Say: I do not ask you a wage regarding it, except, that who wants to, to take a path to his Lord.

Peace be upon the servants that God has chosen

...and God with respect to his servants is seeing aware. Then we inherited the book to those we chosen of our servants....


Or Do they have a share of the authority.....Or do they envy the people for what God has given them out of his grace? For we have given the family of Ibrahim the book, and the wisdom, and gave them a great authority. So of them is who believed in it and of them is he who turned away from it, and hell is sufficient as a burning........O You who believe Obey God and obey the Messenger and those who Possess The Command/Authority from you therefore if you dispute in a thing refer to God and the Messenger if you believe in God and the last day....

 

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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1 hour ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

You are belittling God's words. Allah [swt] said:

 

Say: no wage do I ask for it except the love of my near kin

Say: whatever wage I have ask of you of it then it is for youselves

Say: I do not ask you a wage regarding it, except, that who wants to, to take a path to his Lord.

Peace be upon the servants that God has chosen

...and God with respect to his servants is seeing aware. Then we inherited the book to those we chosen of our servants....


Or Do they have a share of the authority.....Or do they envy the people for what God has given them out of his grace? For we have given the family of Ibrahim the book, and the wisdom, and gave them a great authority. So of them is who believed in it and of them is he who turned away from it, and hell is sufficient as a burning........O You who believe Obey God and obey the Messenger and those who Possess The Command/Authority from you therefore if you dispute in a thing refer to God and the Messenger if you believe in God and the last day....

 

Yes we are obligated to love the Ahlul Bayt (as) but does love mean beating yourself once a year,shedding blood and stuff etc... You love your parents and your children,every year do you cut yourself to show your love? No,is the answer. The love of ahlul Bayt is respecting them and following their action to seek nearness to theirs and our creator,the only mawla Allah (awj). Am i wrong?

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[1] No the Holy Qur'an doesn't mention that explicitly and it doesn't have to. The important thing is that the concept of Imamah and Wilayah is mentioned in the Holy Qur'an. The details are in the Sunnah.

This is a hadith from the Imams of Ahlulbayt [AS] which answers your question.

 "I asked Abu 'AbdAllaah (as-Sadiq) (عليه السلام) about the words of Allaah (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ): 'Believers, obey Allah, His Messenger, and your leaders (who possess Divine Authority). . . .' (4:59) "The Imam said, 'This was sent from the heavens about `Ali ibn Abi Taalib, Al-Hasan and Al-Hussain (عليه السلام).' I then said, 'People say, "Why did He not specify Ali and his family by their names in the Book of Allaah (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ)?' "The Imam said, 'Say to them, "The command for prayer came to the Messenger of Allah but He has not specified (the number of the Rak'ats) for them as being three or four. It, in fact, was the Messenger of Allah who explained to them this matter. The command for Zakat (a form of income tax) came to the Messenger of Allah and there was no specific taxable number such as one Dirham on every forty Dirham. It was the Messenger of Allah who explained it for them. The command for Hajj came to the Messenger of Allah. It did not say walk seven times around the Ka'ba. It was the Messenger of Allah who explained it for them...."

Source: al-Kulayni in his al-Kafi, volume 1, pages 286–288, hadeeth #1

Grading: al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (authentic) in his Mir'aat Al-`Uqool, volume 3, page 213

[Translation taken from former ShiaChat threads]

So the details of the concept of Imamah come from the Holy Prophet [SAWW]. The Shi'i claim that the Verses of Ulil Amr, Wilayah of Imam Ali [AS] in Ruku and the Imamah of Prophet Ibrahim [AS], are examples of Imamah in the Holy Qur'an. So who are these Imams? The answer is in the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet [SAWW].

[2] Because Allah [SWT] and His Prophet wanted this to happen. The Muslims have no say in matter which Allah [SWT] and His Prophet [SAWW]. 

[3] The authentic report of Ahlulbayt [AS] show Zayd b. Ali [RA] in a good light and he wasn't calling for his own Imamah, but for Ahlulbayt [AS].

[4] Answer in question 3.

More answers will come insha Allah. A bit busy though.

 

 

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1 hour ago, sunnilove2hussain said:

Yes we are obligated to love the Ahlul Bayt (as) but does love mean beating yourself once a year,shedding blood and stuff etc... You love your parents and your children,every year do you cut yourself to show your love? No,is the answer. The love of ahlul Bayt is respecting them and following their action to seek nearness to theirs and our creator,the only mawla Allah (awj). Am i wrong?

Love has different meanings depending on the station the person you are suppose to love.

Love here is the whole of Islam. It's the path towards God. Think about it.

Now what type of love should that be? There is minimum and then there is potential to whatever you put in it, as long as you don't go out of bounds of Islam.

This by which Allah is approached. This is the ultimate path towards Allah [swt].

The station of these people should be such that they are higher then everyone else. Allah [swt] doesn't manifest a people to be followed and held on to, unless, they are chosen above the rest of people. 

To recognize the implications of this love, and why God reminds of it, you should look at the Surahs with the wage mentioned. For example, look at Suratal Saad. Look at Suratal Sheba. How does it flow with respect to that.

If we read the 2nd last verse of Suratal Shura, we can see that the love here has to do with being inspired by the same spirit of command that Mohammad was guided by, which was a light to him, and that Mohammad guides to the straight path. He has chosen them for himself, and it's the way we won't be separated and differ from the true religion.

I suggest pondering over the Quran bro. Don't belittle God's words. The whole of Quran is showing how to love them.

They been singled out for the wage of the message, that means they are integral part of the message, the central purpose of it.

That already implies they are chosen above the worlds and that God has chosen them for himself.

Don't be stubborn bro. 

 

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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35 minutes ago, The Batman said:

[1] No the Holy Qur'an doesn't mention that explicitly and it doesn't have to. The important thing is that the concept of Imamah and Wilayah is mentioned in the Holy Qur'an. The details are in the Sunnah.

This is a hadith from the Imams of Ahlulbayt [AS] which answers your question.

 

 

So the details of the concept of Imamah come from the Holy Prophet [SAWW]. The Shi'i claim that the Verses of Ulil Amr, Wilayah of Imam Ali [AS] in Ruku and the Imamah of Prophet Ibrahim [AS], are examples of Imamah in the Holy Qur'an. So who are these Imams? The answer is in the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet [SAWW].

[2] Because Allah [SWT] and His Prophet wanted this to happen. The Muslims have no say in matter which Allah [SWT] and His Prophet [SAWW]. 

[3] The authentic report of Ahlulbayt [AS] show Zayd b. Ali [RA] in a good light and he wasn't calling for his own Imamah, but for Ahlulbayt [AS].

[4] Answer in question 3.

More answers will come insha Allah. A bit busy though.

 

 

jazakAllah khair brother. The haduth you posted,kind of summed up my doubts. No wonder the wisdom of the family of muhammad (sawaw) is unquestionable. Allah (awj) has blessed them with so much knowledge.

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