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In the Name of God بسم الله

Did all imams give zakat while in ruku

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2 hours ago, The Batman said:

I believe we do have hadiths like that

could you plz share the Ahadith ? it would be greatly appreciated.

Sometimes we really go off. Do we really need such Hadith to prove the Imamat?

If some one admitted the Imamat of Imam Ali which is indicated by this Ayat he no longer needs to say that other Imams are included in the implication of the Ayat as well.

All things makes sense with this Ayat is that we say the Ayat has revealed the time all companions at the mosque refrained to do Zakat to that poor guy yet Imam Ali did it while he was doing Salat. So if the Ayat is revealed now it would be easy for every one to play the role afterwards the same way to have the implication of Ayat for himself.

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3 hours ago, mahdi servant.01 said:

All things makes sense with this Ayat is that we say the Ayat has revealed the time all companions at the mosque refrained to do Zakat to that poor guy yet Imam Ali did it while he was doing Salat. So if the Ayat is revealed now it would be easy for every one to play the role afterwards the same way to have the implication of Ayat for himself.

the thing is. we are in no doubt as to the wilayat of Ameerul Momineen (as). and part of his wilayat was revealing his successor, and his successor revealed his and so on until the awaited imam (atf). if you believe in the wilayat of Imam Ali (as) you must also therefore believe in the wilayat of his successor (Imam Hassan (as)) and the other 10 Imams. 

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45 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

the thing is. we are in no doubt as to the wilayat of Ameerul Momineen (as). and part of his wilayat was revealing his successor, and his successor revealed his and so on until the awaited imam (atf). if you believe in the wilayat of Imam Ali (as) you must also therefore believe in the wilayat of his successor (Imam Hassan (as)) and the other 10 Imams. 

Yes, this is what I meant.

Jazakallah.

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9 hours ago, Qasim_Husayn said:

Salam I was watching this lecture by sayed ammar on Surah 5:55. And he claims that one of the marij found narrations of all 12 imams giving zakat to a poor man while in ruku

I don't even think Ali (ra) did such a thing ever.  If you look at the ayah, in al-Maidah:55 is says:

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّـهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ 

"Your ally is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship]".

To understand what this verse means, shouldn't we look at the verses before and after?  in al-Maidah:51 it says:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا تَتَّخِذُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَىٰ أَوْلِيَاءَ ۘبَعْضُهُمْ أَوْلِيَاءُ بَعْضٍ ۚ وَمَن يَتَوَلَّهُم مِّنكُمْ فَإِنَّهُ مِنْهُمْ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّـهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الظَّالِمِينَ

"O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people."

Ok so ayah 51 discusses who the muslims at the time shouldn't take as allies.  Now who is their ally? Allah, his messenger, those who pray, give zakat, and are obedient.  Now what else does it say about these allies?

وَمَن يَتَوَلَّ اللَّـهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا فَإِنَّ حِزْبَ اللَّـهِ هُمُ الْغَالِبُونَ

"And whoever is an ally of Allah and His Messenger and those who have believed - indeed, the party of Allah - they will be the predominant" (al-Maidah:56).

Notice how this ayah is in the plural?  It doesn't mean that this person is our sole ally, but it describes the sort of people the muslims should place their trust in.  Now, has Ali been mentioned in this ayah?  No.  Even if it was him (Ali (ra) is definitely included in the category of people described in the ayah) how does this make the imamah valid?  The Qur'an doesn't support this concept at all. 

Edited by Sincere Faith
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sunni tafsir says one thing, shia tafsir says another. 

18 minutes ago, Sincere Faith said:

Notice how this ayah is in the plural?  It doesn't mean that this person is our sole ally, but it describes the sort of people the muslims should place their trust in.  Now, has Ali been mentioned in this ayah?  No.  Even if it was him (Ali (ra) is definitely included in the category of people described in the ayah) how does this make the imamah valid?  The Qur'an doesn't support this concept at all. 

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27 minutes ago, Sincere Faith said:

I don't even think Ali (ra) did such a thing ever.  If you look at the ayah, in al-Maidah:55 is says:

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّـهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ 

"Your ally is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship]".

To understand what this verse means, shouldn't we look at the verses before and after?  in al-Maidah:51 it says:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا تَتَّخِذُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَىٰ أَوْلِيَاءَ ۘبَعْضُهُمْ أَوْلِيَاءُ بَعْضٍ ۚ وَمَن يَتَوَلَّهُم مِّنكُمْ فَإِنَّهُ مِنْهُمْ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّـهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الظَّالِمِينَ

"O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people."

Ok so ayah 51 discusses who the muslims at the time shouldn't take as allies.  Now who is their ally? Allah, his messenger, those who pray, give zakat, and are obedient.  Now what else does it say about these allies?

وَمَن يَتَوَلَّ اللَّـهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا فَإِنَّ حِزْبَ اللَّـهِ هُمُ الْغَالِبُونَ

"And whoever is an ally of Allah and His Messenger and those who have believed - indeed, the party of Allah - they will be the predominant" (al-Maidah:56).

Notice how this ayah is in the plural?  It doesn't mean that this person is our sole ally, but it describes the sort of people the muslims should place their trust in.  Now, has Ali been mentioned in this ayah?  No.  Even if it was him (Ali (ra) is definitely included in the category of people described in the ayah) how does this make the imamah valid?  The Qur'an doesn't support this concept at all. 

Salam please watch this lecture Sayed ammar clears up all those arguments. 

 

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the problem here is that the sunni are too busy playing with words in order to prove their points, as the quran never goes deeper than their mouths, and never enters their hearts. we should review reliable tafsir to back up our points. 

the further problem is constant revisionism by sunni online means you can no longer get reliable versions of tafsir online, as no one has any time to scan in older publications of books before sunni started deleting entire chapters when they realised shia are proving our faith right using sunnis own books. 

as an example, I will use the tafsir of pooya/ Ali of this verse. look at the bits in red - how many sunni hadith used to agree with shia hadith on this verse. can you find these references any more? of course not. dimwit sunni will immediately say "herp derp thats because pooya/ ali tafsir is unreliable and lying taqiyyah mutah hidden imam in a cave" without knowing how reliable all muslims shia and sunni viewed the tafsir for decades as it was always fair and well referenced. 

heres what shia tafsir says

All the commentators unanimously hold, as Qushaji admits in the Sharh al Tajrid on the subject of imamat, that this verse refers to Ali when he gave his ring to a beggar while bowing down in the course of his prayers. Nasa-i has also recorded this tradition in his Sahihah al Nasa-i, and so has the author of Al Jama Bayn al Sihah al Sittah (corroboration of the six authentic books) in discussion of the commentary on al Ma-idah, and so does Tha-labi in his Tafsir Kabir, and al Balakhi in his Yanabi has copied it from Ahmad bin Hanbal's Musnad, vol. 5, margin of p. 38. Please refer to the commentary on this verse in Wahidi's book Asbab al Nuzul (the circumstances of descent) which contains the tradition related by Ibn Abbas. Al Khatib has recorded the tradition in Al Muttafiq, and Ibn Marduwayh and Abu Shaykh in their Musnads. It is mentioned in Kanz al Ummal, vol. 6, p. 391, tradition no. 5991. In Ghayah al Maram, chapter 18, there are twenty four traditions from sources other than the Ahl ul Bayt, all supporting the above statement about the descent of this verse.

When Abi Ishaq Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Ibrahim Naysaburi al Tha-labi reached this verse he recorded the following in his Tafsir al Kabir on the authority of Abu Dharr al Ghifari, who said "Both of my ears may turn deaf and both my eyes may become blind if I speak a lie. I heard the Holy Prophet saying, 'Ali is the guide of the righteous and the slayer of the infidels. He who has helped him is victorious and he who has abandoned him is forsaken'. One day I said my prayers in the company of the Holy Prophet; a beggar came to the masjid and begged for alms, but nobody gave him anything. Ali was in a state of ruku in the prayer. He pointed out his ring to the beggar, who approached him and removed the ring from his finger. Thereupon the Holy Prophet implored Allah, saying: 'O Allah! My brother Musa begged You saying: My Lord, delight my heart and make my task easy and undo the knot in my tongue so that they may understand me, and appoint from among my kinsmen, Harun, my brother, as my vizier, and strengthen my back with him and make him participate in my mission so that we may glorify You and remember You more frequently. Certainly You see us-and You inspired him: O Musa! All your requests have been granted. (The Holy Prophet continued) Delight my heart and make my task easy and appoint from among my kinsmen Ali as my vizier and strengthen my back with him'. (Abu Dhar proceeds) By Allah, the Holy Prophet had not yet finished his supplication when the trustworthy Jibril descended to him with this verse". (Ibn Khallikan says that Al Tha-labi was unique as a commentator of the Quran and his Tafsir al Kabir is superior to all other Tafsirs).

In this verse the word wali has been used in the meaning of guardian or master or who holds authority superior to others. Please refer to the origin of the word wali in Sihah or Mukhtar al Sihah or any other good dictionary. The lexicographers have explained that he who manages the affairs of and exercises authority for another person is the wali of that person. This verse, therefore, means that those who manage the affairs of the people (mankind) are superior to all men, and certainly they are Allah, His messenger, the Holy Prophet, and Ali, who possesses all the qualifications enumerated in this verse. Allah has simultaneously confirmed His wilayah (superior authority), that of His prophet and his wali (Ali) in unbroken succession. Allah's wilayah is universal, so likewise, the wilayah of the Holy Prophet and his wali (Ali) must be so. It is not possible to assign to the word wali in this verse the meaning of a helper or a friend, etcetera, for help and friendship are not confined to these three only. All the faithful men and women, according to the holy book, are friends and helpers of one another. It is as obvious as can be that the word wali in this verse means, guardian, ruler, possessor of superior authority. It is in this sense that the word wali has been used by the Holy Prophet in the abovenoted tradition related by Al Tha-labi in his Tafsir al Kabir on the authority of Abu Dharr al Ghifari whom the Holy Prophet had given the title of siddiq (the truthful). There are other authentic traditions, given below, in which the word wali indicates its true meaning:

(i)    Abu Dawud al Tayalisi has recorded in Isti-ab on the authority of Ibn Abbas, who said: "The Holy Prophet said to Ali, 'You are the master (wali) of the faithful after me'."

(ii)    After an expedition, under the command of Ali, some of the men, who went with him, complained to the Holy Prophet about Ali's refusal to oblige them favourably. The Holy Prophet turned to them with signs of displeasure on his face and said: "What do you want to do to Ali? Surely Ali is from me and I am from him, and after me he is the master (wali) of all the faithful."

Nasa-i has recorded it in his Khasa-is al Alawiyyah, p. 17, Ahmad ibn Hanbal in his Musnad, vol. 4, p. 438; Hakim in Mustadrak, vol. 11, p. 11; Al Dhahabi in his Talkhis al Mustadrak; Ibn Shaybah and Jarir both have recorded it from whom Muttaqi of India has copied it in his Kanz al Ummal, vol. 6, p. 400; Tirmidhi has recorded it from Asqalani, mentioned in his account of Ali in his Isabah; Ibn Hadid has copied it from Tirmidhi in his Sharh al Nahj al Balagha, vol. 2, p. 450.

(iii)    The Holy Prophet said to Buraydah:

"Am I not a more privileged master (mawla or wali) of the lives of the faithful than the faithful themselves? Ali is the master (wali or mawla) of those who believe me to be their master."

Ahmad ibn Hanbal has recorded it in his Musnad, vol. 5, p. 356, Hakim has recorded it in his Mustadrak, vol. 3, p. 110, besides many other traditionists.

(iv)    The Holy Prophet said:

"O Ali! After me you are the master of all the faithful."

Hakim has recorded this tradition as reported by Ibn Abbas in his Mustadrak, vol. 3, p. 134; and Dhahabi in his Talkhis; Nasa-i in Khasa-is al Alawiyyah p. 6; Ahmad ibn Hanbal in Musnad vol. 1, p. 331.

"Ali is your wali after me", means that Ali and none else will be the master of the faithful after the Holy Prophet. It confines in Ali the authority to manage the affairs of the ummah after him. It is, therefore, necessary to attach the same meaning to the word wali and to understand it in the same sense as has been pointed out above. Help, affection, love, friendship are not confined to any one person. All faithful men and women love and are friends of one another. If the meaning of wali is taken as helper or friend, then why the Holy Prophet took so much interest in, and attached so much importance to, clarifying emphatically what was obvious and evident, so as to repeat the declaration off and on? His perfect wisdom, his thorough impeccability and termination with him of the prophethood make him far above the indulgence of explaining the self-evident, emphasising the obvious and making unnecessary repetitions. Besides, the traditions lay down clearly that Ali is or will be master of the nation after the Holy Prophet, and this makes it all the more necessary to understand the word wali in the same sense and fix for it the same meaning as has been stated above. The abovenoted traditionists, commentators and historians also deal with the word wali or mawla as the "more privileged master of the lives of the faithful than the faithful themselves."

"Those who believe" is in the plural form. How can it be applicable to an individual?

All the annotators, traditionists and historians agree that it was Na-im ibn Mas-ud al Ashja-i, whom Abu Sufyan gave ten camels for discouraging the Muslim, said to them: "Fear your enemies who have united against you and gathered in large numbers to attack you" (Ali Imran: 173), but in this verse "people said to them" (a plural form) has been used.

It was Ghawrath from the tribe of Banu Maharib, some scholars say, while others say that it was Umar ibn Jahash of the tribe of Banu Nadir, (a single man) single man) who drew out his sword to strike the Holy Prophet, but verse 11 of al Ma-idah describes it as "when a group of persons became so bold as to stretch their hands to you"-in plural form. Verse 120 of al Nahl says: "Ibrahim was certainly a people obedient to Allah".


There are plenty of other examples of using the plural form for an individual.

Tabrasi, while commenting on this verse in his Majma al Bayan, says: "The plural form has been used for Ali in order to express his glory and eminence ."

Zamakhshari, in his Tafsir al Kashshaf, says:

"If you inquire how this plural word is applicable to Ali, who is an individual, I shall say that though this verse is about Ali, an individual, the plural form is used in order to persuade others to act similarly and give alms as readily as Ali did."

The Imams among the Ahl ul Bayt have frequently referred to this verse as a proof of their rightful imamat and have assigned the same meaning to the word wali as we have stated.

The word innama makes the decision of Allah (that He, the Holy Prophet and Ali alone are the masters of the believers) final and decisive. The construction of the sentence and the word wali, used in singular for all the three, means that wilayah of all the three is essentially one in nature as well as in effect. Therefore, obedience to the Holy Prophet must be as it should be to Allah, and obedience to Ali and his successors (the Imams among the Ahl ul Bayt) must be as it should be to the Holy Prophet.


Wa hum raki-un is an adverbial clause qualifying the manner in which the alms were given. If it is taken as a conjunctive clause, then yuqimunas salat or this clause becomes an unnecessary repetition.

In fact this verse points out the highest state of spiritual attainment-fully absorbed in witnessing the glory of the absolute Lord and at the same time alive to the needs of His servants so as to solve them at once to their full satisfaction- which alone entitles a man to be a master like the eternal master, the almighty Allah. The Quran a asserts this possibility for such a man, not for all the followers because they have been addressed in

second person (kum). The plural term "those who believe" is used to include the Imams among the Ahl ul Bayt in the same way as has been done in verse 61 of Ali Imran (Mubahilah).


Please also refer to verse 67 of this surah for the event of Ghadir Khum where the Holy Prophet openly declared Ali as the wali or mawla of the faithfuls just as the Holy Prophet himself is. The entire Muslim nation is unanimous that when the verses of the Quran were collected they were not arranged in the same order in which they descended. There is many a verse occurring in an irrelevant context, for instance, the verse of purification, which occurs in the account of the wives of the Holy Prophet, but actually is in praise of the five persons of al kisa, as has been universally admitted. All Muslims are agreed that arguments are to be preferred to the context, and whenever the implication of the context was opposed to the implication of arguments they ignored the context and yielded to the arguments, because they were doubtful about the context in which a certain verse occurs.

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أحمد بن محمد، عن علي بن الحكم، عن الحسين بن أبي العلاء قال: ذكرت لابي عبد الله عليه لاسلام قولنا في الاوصياء أن طاعتهم مفترضة قال: فقال: نعم، هم الذين قال الله تعالى: " أطيعوا الله وأطيعوا الرسول وأولي الامر منكم " وهم الذين قال الله عز وجل: " إنما وليكم الله ورسوله والذين آمنوا "

Ahmad b. Muhammad from `Ali b. al-Hakam from al-Husayn b. Abu’l `Alaa’.

He said: I mentioned to Abu `Abdillah عليه لاسلام our saying regarding the deputies (awsiya’), that obedience to them is obligatory. He said: So he said: Yes, they are the ones about whom Allah تعالى says, “Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger and those in authority from you,” (4:59) – and they are the ones about whom Allah عز وجل says, “Verily, your master is [only] Allah, His Messenger, and those who believed,” (5:55). (al-Kafi, Volume 1,hadith 480)

(hasan kal-sahih) (حسن كالصحيح) 

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/usul-kafi/book-4/chapter-8

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3 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

the problem here is that the sunni are too busy playing with words in order to prove their points, as the quran never goes deeper than their mouths, and never enters their hearts. we should review reliable tafsir to back up our points. 

the further problem is constant revisionism by sunni online means you can no longer get reliable versions of tafsir online, as no one has any time to scan in older publications of books before sunni started deleting entire chapters when they realised shia are proving our faith right using sunnis own books. 

as an example, I will use the tafsir of pooya/ Ali of this verse. look at the bits in red - how many sunni hadith used to agree with shia hadith on this verse. can you find these references any more? of course not. dimwit sunni will immediately say "herp derp thats because pooya/ ali tafsir is unreliable and lying taqiyyah mutah hidden imam in a cave" without knowing how reliable all muslims shia and sunni viewed the tafsir for decades as it was always fair and well referenced. 

heres what shia tafsir says

All the commentators unanimously hold, as Qushaji admits in the Sharh al Tajrid on the subject of imamat, that this verse refers to Ali when he gave his ring to a beggar while bowing down in the course of his prayers. Nasa-i has also recorded this tradition in his Sahihah al Nasa-i, and so has the author of Al Jama Bayn al Sihah al Sittah (corroboration of the six authentic books) in discussion of the commentary on al Ma-idah, and so does Tha-labi in his Tafsir Kabir, and al Balakhi in his Yanabi has copied it from Ahmad bin Hanbal's Musnad, vol. 5, margin of p. 38. Please refer to the commentary on this verse in Wahidi's book Asbab al Nuzul (the circumstances of descent) which contains the tradition related by Ibn Abbas. Al Khatib has recorded the tradition in Al Muttafiq, and Ibn Marduwayh and Abu Shaykh in their Musnads. It is mentioned in Kanz al Ummal, vol. 6, p. 391, tradition no. 5991. In Ghayah al Maram, chapter 18, there are twenty four traditions from sources other than the Ahl ul Bayt, all supporting the above statement about the descent of this verse.

When Abi Ishaq Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Ibrahim Naysaburi al Tha-labi reached this verse he recorded the following in his Tafsir al Kabir on the authority of Abu Dharr al Ghifari, who said "Both of my ears may turn deaf and both my eyes may become blind if I speak a lie. I heard the Holy Prophet saying, 'Ali is the guide of the righteous and the slayer of the infidels. He who has helped him is victorious and he who has abandoned him is forsaken'. One day I said my prayers in the company of the Holy Prophet; a beggar came to the masjid and begged for alms, but nobody gave him anything. Ali was in a state of ruku in the prayer. He pointed out his ring to the beggar, who approached him and removed the ring from his finger. Thereupon the Holy Prophet implored Allah, saying: 'O Allah! My brother Musa begged You saying: My Lord, delight my heart and make my task easy and undo the knot in my tongue so that they may understand me, and appoint from among my kinsmen, Harun, my brother, as my vizier, and strengthen my back with him and make him participate in my mission so that we may glorify You and remember You more frequently. Certainly You see us-and You inspired him: O Musa! All your requests have been granted. (The Holy Prophet continued) Delight my heart and make my task easy and appoint from among my kinsmen Ali as my vizier and strengthen my back with him'. (Abu Dhar proceeds) By Allah, the Holy Prophet had not yet finished his supplication when the trustworthy Jibril descended to him with this verse". (Ibn Khallikan says that Al Tha-labi was unique as a commentator of the Quran and his Tafsir al Kabir is superior to all other Tafsirs).

In this verse the word wali has been used in the meaning of guardian or master or who holds authority superior to others. Please refer to the origin of the word wali in Sihah or Mukhtar al Sihah or any other good dictionary. The lexicographers have explained that he who manages the affairs of and exercises authority for another person is the wali of that person. This verse, therefore, means that those who manage the affairs of the people (mankind) are superior to all men, and certainly they are Allah, His messenger, the Holy Prophet, and Ali, who possesses all the qualifications enumerated in this verse. Allah has simultaneously confirmed His wilayah (superior authority), that of His prophet and his wali (Ali) in unbroken succession. Allah's wilayah is universal, so likewise, the wilayah of the Holy Prophet and his wali (Ali) must be so. It is not possible to assign to the word wali in this verse the meaning of a helper or a friend, etcetera, for help and friendship are not confined to these three only. All the faithful men and women, according to the holy book, are friends and helpers of one another. It is as obvious as can be that the word wali in this verse means, guardian, ruler, possessor of superior authority. It is in this sense that the word wali has been used by the Holy Prophet in the abovenoted tradition related by Al Tha-labi in his Tafsir al Kabir on the authority of Abu Dharr al Ghifari whom the Holy Prophet had given the title of siddiq (the truthful). There are other authentic traditions, given below, in which the word wali indicates its true meaning:

(i)    Abu Dawud al Tayalisi has recorded in Isti-ab on the authority of Ibn Abbas, who said: "The Holy Prophet said to Ali, 'You are the master (wali) of the faithful after me'."

(ii)    After an expedition, under the command of Ali, some of the men, who went with him, complained to the Holy Prophet about Ali's refusal to oblige them favourably. The Holy Prophet turned to them with signs of displeasure on his face and said: "What do you want to do to Ali? Surely Ali is from me and I am from him, and after me he is the master (wali) of all the faithful."

Nasa-i has recorded it in his Khasa-is al Alawiyyah, p. 17, Ahmad ibn Hanbal in his Musnad, vol. 4, p. 438; Hakim in Mustadrak, vol. 11, p. 11; Al Dhahabi in his Talkhis al Mustadrak; Ibn Shaybah and Jarir both have recorded it from whom Muttaqi of India has copied it in his Kanz al Ummal, vol. 6, p. 400; Tirmidhi has recorded it from Asqalani, mentioned in his account of Ali in his Isabah; Ibn Hadid has copied it from Tirmidhi in his Sharh al Nahj al Balagha, vol. 2, p. 450.

(iii)    The Holy Prophet said to Buraydah:

"Am I not a more privileged master (mawla or wali) of the lives of the faithful than the faithful themselves? Ali is the master (wali or mawla) of those who believe me to be their master."

Ahmad ibn Hanbal has recorded it in his Musnad, vol. 5, p. 356, Hakim has recorded it in his Mustadrak, vol. 3, p. 110, besides many other traditionists.

(iv)    The Holy Prophet said:

"O Ali! After me you are the master of all the faithful."

Hakim has recorded this tradition as reported by Ibn Abbas in his Mustadrak, vol. 3, p. 134; and Dhahabi in his Talkhis; Nasa-i in Khasa-is al Alawiyyah p. 6; Ahmad ibn Hanbal in Musnad vol. 1, p. 331.

"Ali is your wali after me", means that Ali and none else will be the master of the faithful after the Holy Prophet. It confines in Ali the authority to manage the affairs of the ummah after him. It is, therefore, necessary to attach the same meaning to the word wali and to understand it in the same sense as has been pointed out above. Help, affection, love, friendship are not confined to any one person. All faithful men and women love and are friends of one another. If the meaning of wali is taken as helper or friend, then why the Holy Prophet took so much interest in, and attached so much importance to, clarifying emphatically what was obvious and evident, so as to repeat the declaration off and on? His perfect wisdom, his thorough impeccability and termination with him of the prophethood make him far above the indulgence of explaining the self-evident, emphasising the obvious and making unnecessary repetitions. Besides, the traditions lay down clearly that Ali is or will be master of the nation after the Holy Prophet, and this makes it all the more necessary to understand the word wali in the same sense and fix for it the same meaning as has been stated above. The abovenoted traditionists, commentators and historians also deal with the word wali or mawla as the "more privileged master of the lives of the faithful than the faithful themselves."

"Those who believe" is in the plural form. How can it be applicable to an individual?

All the annotators, traditionists and historians agree that it was Na-im ibn Mas-ud al Ashja-i, whom Abu Sufyan gave ten camels for discouraging the Muslim, said to them: "Fear your enemies who have united against you and gathered in large numbers to attack you" (Ali Imran: 173), but in this verse "people said to them" (a plural form) has been used.

It was Ghawrath from the tribe of Banu Maharib, some scholars say, while others say that it was Umar ibn Jahash of the tribe of Banu Nadir, (a single man) single man) who drew out his sword to strike the Holy Prophet, but verse 11 of al Ma-idah describes it as "when a group of persons became so bold as to stretch their hands to you"-in plural form. Verse 120 of al Nahl says: "Ibrahim was certainly a people obedient to Allah".


There are plenty of other examples of using the plural form for an individual.

Tabrasi, while commenting on this verse in his Majma al Bayan, says: "The plural form has been used for Ali in order to express his glory and eminence ."

Zamakhshari, in his Tafsir al Kashshaf, says:

"If you inquire how this plural word is applicable to Ali, who is an individual, I shall say that though this verse is about Ali, an individual, the plural form is used in order to persuade others to act similarly and give alms as readily as Ali did."

The Imams among the Ahl ul Bayt have frequently referred to this verse as a proof of their rightful imamat and have assigned the same meaning to the word wali as we have stated.

The word innama makes the decision of Allah (that He, the Holy Prophet and Ali alone are the masters of the believers) final and decisive. The construction of the sentence and the word wali, used in singular for all the three, means that wilayah of all the three is essentially one in nature as well as in effect. Therefore, obedience to the Holy Prophet must be as it should be to Allah, and obedience to Ali and his successors (the Imams among the Ahl ul Bayt) must be as it should be to the Holy Prophet.


Wa hum raki-un is an adverbial clause qualifying the manner in which the alms were given. If it is taken as a conjunctive clause, then yuqimunas salat or this clause becomes an unnecessary repetition.

In fact this verse points out the highest state of spiritual attainment-fully absorbed in witnessing the glory of the absolute Lord and at the same time alive to the needs of His servants so as to solve them at once to their full satisfaction- which alone entitles a man to be a master like the eternal master, the almighty Allah. The Quran a asserts this possibility for such a man, not for all the followers because they have been addressed in

second person (kum). The plural term "those who believe" is used to include the Imams among the Ahl ul Bayt in the same way as has been done in verse 61 of Ali Imran (Mubahilah).


Please also refer to verse 67 of this surah for the event of Ghadir Khum where the Holy Prophet openly declared Ali as the wali or mawla of the faithfuls just as the Holy Prophet himself is. The entire Muslim nation is unanimous that when the verses of the Quran were collected they were not arranged in the same order in which they descended. There is many a verse occurring in an irrelevant context, for instance, the verse of purification, which occurs in the account of the wives of the Holy Prophet, but actually is in praise of the five persons of al kisa, as has been universally admitted. All Muslims are agreed that arguments are to be preferred to the context, and whenever the implication of the context was opposed to the implication of arguments they ignored the context and yielded to the arguments, because they were doubtful about the context in which a certain verse occurs.

https://archive.org/stream/musnad_hanbal/musnda04#page/n433/mode/2up

Can you find that hadith of the musnad in there. Furthuremore, can you use this http://sunnah.com/ to find the narration of sunan in his nisai, as well as provide a link to most of your sources

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@sunnilove2hussain@Sincere Faith

 

مَا تُرِيدُونَ مِنْ عَلِيٍّ مَا تُرِيدُونَ مِنْ عَلِيٍّ مَا تُرِيدُونَ مِنْ عَلِيٍّ إِنَّ عَلِيًّا مِنِّي وَأَنَا مِنْهُ وَهُوَ وَلِيُّ كُلِّ مُؤْمِنٍ بَعْدِي ‏" 

 

The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) faced him, and the anger was visible on his face, he said: "What do you want from 'Ali?! What do you want from 'Ali?! Indeed 'Ali is from me, and I am from him, and he is the ally of every believer after me."

(sunan tirmidhi)

http://sunnah.com/urn/635910

 

 

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Salam

 

It represents a group in action, I think implied is "they give zakat (even) while they bow". Meaning if any of Ahlulbayt were in this position, they would of given zakat, as they give in every instance it is loved by God including even while in Ruku and they also have a full understanding when it is loved by God and when it isn't, and not everyone had this understanding like them.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Qasim_Husayn said:

https://archive.org/stream/musnad_hanbal/musnda04#page/n433/mode/2up

Can you find that hadith of the musnad in there. Furthuremore, can you use this http://sunnah.com/ to find the narration of sunan in his nisai, as well as provide a link to most of your sources

um

6 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

the further problem is constant revisionism by sunni online means you can no longer get reliable versions of tafsir online, as no one has any time to scan in older publications of books before sunni started deleting entire chapters when they realised shia are proving our faith right using sunnis own books. 

 

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11 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

the problem here is that the sunni are too busy playing with words in order to prove their points, as the quran never goes deeper than their mouths, and never enters their hearts. we should review reliable tafsir to back up our points. 

All you say is, "Ahmad recorded it...Al-Hakim recorded it...the narration is present in...."

The problem is that you brought forth zero evidence!  That's right, we can't take what you say unless:

1. You quote the actual source and provide a link because anyone can say, "he said, they said"

2. Prove to us that these narrations recorded in the books are sahih, with sound chains.

It seems to me that you are the one playing with words.  If you read the aya, does it explicitly mention Ali's (ra) name?  No it doesn't, so the meat or your evidence is in the hadith.  So therefore the onus is on you to prove that the hadith is sahih, with sound chain of reliable narrators.

11 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

the further problem is constant revisionism by sunni online means you can no longer get reliable versions of tafsir online, as no one has any time to scan in older publications of books before sunni started deleting entire chapters when they realised shia are proving our faith right using sunnis own books. 

What is your proof for this?  The fact that these ahadith existed in the books of Ahlus Sunnah (even if they did) doesn't mean that they were authentic.  Just because you say something is doesn't make it so.

11 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

heres what shia tafsir says

All the commentators unanimously hold, as Qushaji admits in the Sharh al Tajrid on the subject of imamat, that this verse refers to Ali when he gave his ring to a beggar while bowing down in the course of his prayers. Nasa-i has also recorded this tradition in his Sahihah al Nasa-i, and so has the author of Al Jama Bayn al Sihah al Sittah (corroboration of the six authentic books) in discussion of the commentary on al Ma-idah, and so does Tha-labi in his Tafsir Kabir, and al Balakhi in his Yanabi has copied it from Ahmad bin Hanbal's Musnad, vol. 5, margin of p. 38. Please refer to the commentary on this verse in Wahidi's book Asbab al Nuzul (the circumstances of descent) which contains the tradition related by Ibn Abbas. Al Khatib has recorded the tradition in Al Muttafiq, and Ibn Marduwayh and Abu Shaykh in their Musnads. It is mentioned in Kanz al Ummal, vol. 6, p. 391, tradition no. 5991. In Ghayah al Maram, chapter 18, there are twenty four traditions from sources other than the Ahl ul Bayt, all supporting the above statement about the descent of this verse.

1.  Where did al-Nasa'i and the other famous sunan and musanid quote it.  Give us a link of the actual narration(s)/narrator(s).  From anywhere!

2.  Which ones are these twenty four traditions?

11 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

When Abi Ishaq Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Ibrahim Naysaburi al Tha-labi reached this verse he recorded the following in his Tafsir al Kabir on the authority of Abu Dharr al Ghifari, who said "Both of my ears may turn deaf and both my eyes may become blind if I speak a lie. I heard the Holy Prophet saying, 'Ali is the guide of the righteous and the slayer of the infidels. He who has helped him is victorious and he who has abandoned him is forsaken'. One day I said my prayers in the company of the Holy Prophet; a beggar came to the masjid and begged for alms, but nobody gave him anything. Ali was in a state of ruku in the prayer. He pointed out his ring to the beggar, who approached him and removed the ring from his finger. Thereupon the Holy Prophet implored Allah, saying: 'O Allah! My brother Musa begged You saying: My Lord, delight my heart and make my task easy and undo the knot in my tongue so that they may understand me, and appoint from among my kinsmen, Harun, my brother, as my vizier, and strengthen my back with him and make him participate in my mission so that we may glorify You and remember You more frequently. Certainly You see us-and You inspired him: O Musa! All your requests have been granted. (The Holy Prophet continued) Delight my heart and make my task easy and appoint from among my kinsmen Ali as my vizier and strengthen my back with him'. (Abu Dhar proceeds) By Allah, the Holy Prophet had not yet finished his supplication when the trustworthy Jibril descended to him with this verse". (Ibn Khallikan says that Al Tha-labi was unique as a commentator of the Quran and his Tafsir al Kabir is superior to all other Tafsirs).

Can you provide a link for this please?  And also, Al-Tha'labi (rh) lived after Abu Dharr (ra).  Roughly 400 years!  Unless you can provide a connected chain, this cannot be taken at face value.

11 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

In this verse the word wali has been used in the meaning of guardian or master or who holds authority superior to others. Please refer to the origin of the word wali in Sihah or Mukhtar al Sihah or any other good dictionary. The lexicographers have explained that he who manages the affairs of and exercises authority for another person is the wali of that person. This verse, therefore, means that those who manage the affairs of the people (mankind) are superior to all men, and certainly they are Allah, His messenger, the Holy Prophet, and Ali, who possesses all the qualifications enumerated in this verse. Allah has simultaneously confirmed His wilayah (superior authority), that of His prophet and his wali (Ali) in unbroken succession. Allah's wilayah is universal, so likewise, the wilayah of the Holy Prophet and his wali (Ali) must be so. It is not possible to assign to the word wali in this verse the meaning of a helper or a friend, etcetera, for help and friendship are not confined to these three only. All the faithful men and women, according to the holy book, are friends and helpers of one another. It is as obvious as can be that the word wali in this verse means, guardian, ruler, possessor of superior authority. It is in this sense that the word wali has been used by the Holy Prophet in the abovenoted tradition related by Al Tha-labi in his Tafsir al Kabir on the authority of Abu Dharr al Ghifari whom the Holy Prophet had given the title of siddiq (the truthful). There are other authentic traditions, given below, in which the word wali indicates its true meaning:

(i)    Abu Dawud al Tayalisi has recorded in Isti-ab on the authority of Ibn Abbas, who said: "The Holy Prophet said to Ali, 'You are the master (wali) of the faithful after me'."

(ii)    After an expedition, under the command of Ali, some of the men, who went with him, complained to the Holy Prophet about Ali's refusal to oblige them favourably. The Holy Prophet turned to them with signs of displeasure on his face and said: "What do you want to do to Ali? Surely Ali is from me and I am from him, and after me he is the master (wali) of all the faithful."

Nasa-i has recorded it in his Khasa-is al Alawiyyah, p. 17, Ahmad ibn Hanbal in his Musnad, vol. 4, p. 438; Hakim in Mustadrak, vol. 11, p. 11; Al Dhahabi in his Talkhis al Mustadrak; Ibn Shaybah and Jarir both have recorded it from whom Muttaqi of India has copied it in his Kanz al Ummal, vol. 6, p. 400; Tirmidhi has recorded it from Asqalani, mentioned in his account of Ali in his Isabah; Ibn Hadid has copied it from Tirmidhi in his Sharh al Nahj al Balagha, vol. 2, p. 450.

(iii)    The Holy Prophet said to Buraydah:

"Am I not a more privileged master (mawla or wali) of the lives of the faithful than the faithful themselves? Ali is the master (wali or mawla) of those who believe me to be their master."

Ahmad ibn Hanbal has recorded it in his Musnad, vol. 5, p. 356, Hakim has recorded it in his Mustadrak, vol. 3, p. 110, besides many other traditionists.

(iv)    The Holy Prophet said:

"O Ali! After me you are the master of all the faithful."

Hakim has recorded this tradition as reported by Ibn Abbas in his Mustadrak, vol. 3, p. 134; and Dhahabi in his Talkhis; Nasa-i in Khasa-is al Alawiyyah p. 6; Ahmad ibn Hanbal in Musnad vol. 1, p. 331.

"Ali is your wali after me", means that Ali and none else will be the master of the faithful after the Holy Prophet. It confines in Ali the authority to manage the affairs of the ummah after him. It is, therefore, necessary to attach the same meaning to the word wali and to understand it in the same sense as has been pointed out above. Help, affection, love, friendship are not confined to any one person. All faithful men and women love and are friends of one another. If the meaning of wali is taken as helper or friend, then why the Holy Prophet took so much interest in, and attached so much importance to, clarifying emphatically what was obvious and evident, so as to repeat the declaration off and on? His perfect wisdom, his thorough impeccability and termination with him of the prophethood make him far above the indulgence of explaining the self-evident, emphasising the obvious and making unnecessary repetitions. Besides, the traditions lay down clearly that Ali is or will be master of the nation after the Holy Prophet, and this makes it all the more necessary to understand the word wali in the same sense and fix for it the same meaning as has been stated above. The abovenoted traditionists, commentators and historians also deal with the word wali or mawla as the "more privileged master of the lives of the faithful than the faithful themselves."

Link those sources that "wali/mawla" means what you've described it to mean.  Wali means protector, guardian and ally.  Can you provide a source proving that in the times of the prophet and before him, they used the word "mawla" to refer to a political leader rather than a position of respect?  

11 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

"Those who believe" is in the plural form. How can it be applicable to an individual?

All the annotators, traditionists and historians agree that it was Na-im ibn Mas-ud al Ashja-i, whom Abu Sufyan gave ten camels for discouraging the Muslim, said to them: "Fear your enemies who have united against you and gathered in large numbers to attack you" (Ali Imran: 173), but in this verse "people said to them" (a plural form) has been used.

It was Ghawrath from the tribe of Banu Maharib, some scholars say, while others say that it was Umar ibn Jahash of the tribe of Banu Nadir, (a single man) single man) who drew out his sword to strike the Holy Prophet, but verse 11 of al Ma-idah describes it as "when a group of persons became so bold as to stretch their hands to you"-in plural form. Verse 120 of al Nahl says: "Ibrahim was certainly a people obedient to Allah".

Historians are known for merely collecting narrations and not citing chains of narrators most of the time.  So it seems that you're using a weak source to bolster a strong point...

But anyhow, most shias I've spoken to personally, when I ask them about their narrations, they jump up and say, "If it goes against the Qur'an, then we don't take it!".  Why don't you apply that here?  These people are obviously attributing that verse to a single person when that contradicts the eloquent words of the Qur'an.

Anyway, my main point to you is this:

Given that you base the weight of your claim on the narration.  Prove to us that the narration is authentic!

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@Sincere Faith

 

مَا تُرِيدُونَ مِنْ عَلِيٍّ مَا تُرِيدُونَ مِنْ عَلِيٍّ مَا تُرِيدُونَ مِنْ عَلِيٍّ إِنَّ عَلِيًّا مِنِّي وَأَنَا مِنْهُ وَهُوَ وَلِيُّ كُلِّ مُؤْمِنٍ بَعْدِي ‏" 

 

The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) faced him, and the anger was visible on his face, he said: "What do you want from 'Ali?! What do you want from 'Ali?! Indeed 'Ali is from me, and I am from him, and he is the ally of every believer after me."

(sunan tirmidhi)

http://sunnah.com/urn/635910

Footnote:  Salafi Imam Al-Albani in his commentary to this Hadeeth says it is Saheeh (Authentic).

Surah 5:55

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
Your ally is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship].
 

How much more obvious does it need to get lol and also please watch the video I sent you, it reasons every single arguemnt you proposed

 

 

 

Edited by Qasim_Husayn
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1 hour ago, Qasim_Husayn said:

@Sincere Faith

 

مَا تُرِيدُونَ مِنْ عَلِيٍّ مَا تُرِيدُونَ مِنْ عَلِيٍّ مَا تُرِيدُونَ مِنْ عَلِيٍّ إِنَّ عَلِيًّا مِنِّي وَأَنَا مِنْهُ وَهُوَ وَلِيُّ كُلِّ مُؤْمِنٍ بَعْدِي ‏" 

The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) faced him, and the anger was visible on his face, he said: "What do you want from 'Ali?! What do you want from 'Ali?! Indeed 'Ali is from me, and I am from him, and he is the ally of every believer after me."

(sunan tirmidhi)

http://sunnah.com/urn/635910

Footnote:  Salafi Imam Al-Albani in his commentary to this Hadeeth says it is Saheeh (Authentic).

Surah 5:55

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
Your ally is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship].

How much more obvious does it need to get lol and also please watch the video I sent you, it reasons every single arguemnt you proposed

How does his prove that the verse is referring specifically to Ali (ra)?  Prove that the wali being referred to in the hadith is the very same one being referred to in the verse.

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On 29/01/2016 at 9:01 PM, Qasim_Husayn said:

@sunnilove2hussain@Sincere Faith

 

مَا تُرِيدُونَ مِنْ عَلِيٍّ مَا تُرِيدُونَ مِنْ عَلِيٍّ مَا تُرِيدُونَ مِنْ عَلِيٍّ إِنَّ عَلِيًّا مِنِّي وَأَنَا مِنْهُ وَهُوَ وَلِيُّ كُلِّ مُؤْمِنٍ بَعْدِي ‏" 

 

The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) faced him, and the anger was visible on his face, he said: "What do you want from 'Ali?! What do you want from 'Ali?! Indeed 'Ali is from me, and I am from him, and he is the ally of every believer after me."

(sunan tirmidhi)

http://sunnah.com/urn/635910

 

 

Interesting

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