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In the Name of God بسم الله

Sunnis who do not consider Shias Muslisms do not believe in the Sunnah

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Abu Nasr

By Abu Nasr
in Shia/Sunni Dialogue

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Abu Nasr Newbie

Abu Nasr

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I am talking about these two ahadith found in Sunni books:

 

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "Whoever prays like us and faces our Qibla and eats our slaughtered animals is a Muslim and is under Allah's and His Apostle's protection. So do not betray Allah by betraying those who are in His protection."

Sahih al-Bukhari

 

“Whoever offers the morning prayer, he is under the protection of Allah, so do not betray Allah by betraying those who are under His protection. Whoever kills him, Allah will seek him out until He throws him on his face into Hell.”

Grade: Sahih

 

So I should ask, how can the so called "Sunnis" who claim to be followers of the Sunnah, disbelieve in the above ahadith? Do they choose which part of the religion to believe in and which part to disbelieve in? Have they become like the Jews? Have they become so proud that now they and their scholars are better criteria for deeming a Muslim kafir than the Prophet himself? Or do they no longer believe in the near perfect authenticity of the Sahih al-Bukhari and their rijal books?

My personal conclusion is that the vocal people among the Sunnis who do not consider Shias Muslim, are hypocrites. They are not subservient to God and his Prophet. Rather they are proud of themselves and the fact that they are not Shia.

Now if anyone is willing to shed any light on these two ahadith or clear any misconception, I'm here to listen.

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em Newbie

em

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some sunnis go so far as to call shias kafir. i found these from their own hadith that says that it is not ok to call another Muslim kafir:


In the hadith Ibn Umar related that the Holy Prophet said: If a Muslim calls another kafir, then if he is a kafir let it be so; otherwise, he [the caller] is himself a kafir.'' (Abu Dawud, Book of Sunna, edition published by Quran Mahal, Karachi, vol. iii, p. 484)

Abu Zarr reported that the Holy Prophet said: No man accuses another man of being a sinner, or of being a kafir, but it reflects back on him if the other is not as he called him.'' (Bukhari, Book of Ethics; Book 78, ch. 44)

"Withhold [your tongues] from those who say `There is no god but Allah' --- do not call them kafir. Whoever calls a reciter of `There is no god but Allah' as a kafir, is nearer to being a kafir himself.'' (Tabarani, reported from Ibn Umar)

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sunnilove2hussain Newbie

sunnilove2hussain

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So,we are accepting the norm that,we shouldn't call another person kaafir "if he says the shahdah,good." Now since you brought Sunni sources to back up your case,Refrain from calling (abubakr,Umar and 'Uthman) [radiAllahi anuhuma] as kaafir,use the same yardstick and is it fine?

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أبو فاطمة المحمدي Newbie

أبو فاطمة المحمدي

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29 minutes ago, sunnilove2hussain said:

So,we are accepting the norm that,we shouldn't call another person kaafir "if he says the shahdah,good." Now since you brought Sunni sources to back up your case,Refrain from calling (abubakr,Umar and 'Uthman) [radiAllahi anuhuma] as kaafir,use the same yardstick and is it fine?

Abu Bakr and 'Umar were Muslims but innovators.

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أبو فاطمة المحمدي

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2 minutes ago, sunnilove2hussain said:

As long as your accept they are Muslims,i am fine.

I generally do not deny their Islam. They recited the two shahadah. So, they were as "Muslim" as 'Abd Allah b. Ubayy was.

Edited by أبو فاطمة المحمدي
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sunnilove2hussain Newbie

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2 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Imam 'Ali's shahadah was true. Do not compare the incomparables.

Sorry, our opinions vary and for the better part of 85%+ believe in what i do and that's that. I don't want to drag a sunni/shia war here. Assalamu Alaikum.

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أبو فاطمة المحمدي

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1 minute ago, sunnilove2hussain said:

Sorry, our opinions vary and for the better part of 85%+ believe in what i do and that's that. I don't want to drag a sunni/shia war here. Assalamu Alaikum.

Do you consider an innovator a true mumin?

And, please note that it is your own scholars who have identified Abu Bakr and 'Umar as innovators.

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1 minute ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Do you consider an innovator a true mumin?

And, please note that it is your own scholars who have identified Abu Bakr and 'Umar as innovators.

My dear brother,please be kind enough to return a Salam :clap: . As for the debate,i think shiachat has endless threads on sunni/shia war regarding the Calips (raa) ,so let's not add load to their bandwidth.

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أبو فاطمة المحمدي

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1 minute ago, sunnilove2hussain said:

My dear brother,please be kind enough to return a Salam :clap: . As for the debate,i think shiachat has endless threads on sunni/shia war regarding the Calips (raa) ,so let's not add load to their bandwidth.

Wa 'alaikum salam. Okay, let's leave the "caliphs." Let us talk about innovators generally instead.

Are innovators people of true faith?

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sunnilove2hussain Newbie

sunnilove2hussain

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2 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Wa 'alaikum salam. Okay, let's leave the "caliphs." Let us talk about innovators generally instead.

Are innovators people of true faith?

Ok adding "Ashadhu Anna aliyan waliullah" is an innovation,do you agree? It wasn't said during the time of prophet (sawaw) or imam Ali (as)'s time. Innovators are indeed of not true faith. Innovation is an innovation regardless of political or other reasons.

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أبو فاطمة المحمدي

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3 minutes ago, sunnilove2hussain said:

Ok adding "Ashadhu Anna aliyan waliullah" is an innovation,do you agree? It wasn't said during the time of prophet (sawaw) or imam Ali (as)'s time. Innovators are indeed of not true faith. Innovation is an innovation regardless of political or other reasons.

Adding the third shahadah to what? To the shahadah? To the adhan?

Besides, I am glad you agreed that innovators are NOT believers. But, they are Muslims.

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sunnilove2hussain Newbie

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54 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Adding the third shahadah to what? To the shahadah? To the adhan?

Besides, I am glad you agreed that innovators are NOT believers. But, they are Muslims.

It didn't exist in Adhaan during Prophet (sawaw)'s time or during the caliphate of Imam Ali (as) ,so yeah its an innovation. Ofcourse no Shia hadith says it existed during the period of the above mentioned people. So it's an innovation.

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أبو فاطمة المحمدي

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22 minutes ago, sunnilove2hussain said:

It didn't exist in Adhaan during Prophet (sawaw)'s time or during the caliphate of Imam Ali (as) ,so yeah its an innovation. Ofcourse no Shia hadith says it existed during the period of the above mentioned people. So it's an innovation.

No Shi'ah says it is part of the adhan or iqamah, either; and it is never recited as a part of them. So, what is your point?

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1 hour ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

No Shi'ah says it is part of the adhan or iqamah, either; and it is never recited as a part of them. So, what is your point?

Who said,its not a part of Adhaan. Wallahi i have prayed in Shia masjids many a times,its recited in Adhaan and iqamah not tashahud,but some people want to include it in tashahud too. Have you heard the adhaan called in Karbala? They say it too,check youtube. Maybe you dont say it but most do. My point is it's bidah

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33 minutes ago, sunnilove2hussain said:

Who said,its not a part of Adhaan. Wallahi i have prayed in Shia masjids many a times,its recited in Adhaan and iqamah not tashahud,but some people want to include it in tashahud too. Have you heard the adhaan called in Karbala? They say it too,check youtube. Maybe you dont say it but most do. My point is it's bidah

During the adhan or iqamah, if you mention the name of the Prophet, you may say the salat upon him and his family, before continuing the adhan or iqamah. This is the Sunnah according to our ahadith. The salat is not part of the adhan. Yet, it is mentioned right in its middle. A somewhat similar status is considered for the third shahadah in the adhan and iqamah, due to the mutawatir Shi'i ahadith which often conjoin the shahadah of nubuwah with the shahadah of wilayah. In particular, there were ahadith which mention the wilayah in the middle of the adhan and iqamah. Their existence was mentioned by the classical Shi'i scholars. However, their authenticity was rejected by them. The latter scholars seem to accept the authenticity of those reports.

Edited by أبو فاطمة المحمدي
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5 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

During the adhan or iqamah, if you mention the name of the Prophet, you may say the salat upon him and his family, before continuing the adhan or iqamah. This is the Sunnah according to our ahadith. The salat is not part of the adhan. Yet, it is mentioned right in its middle. A somewhat similar status is considered for the third shahadah in the adhan and iqamah, due to the mutawatir Shi'i ahadith which often conjoin the shahadah of nubuwah with the shahadah of wilayah. In particular, there were ahadith which mention the wilayah in the middle of the adhan and iqamah. Their existence was mentioned by the classical Shi'i scholars. However, their authenticity was rejected by them. The latter scholars seem to accept the authenticity of those reports.

Brother,with all due respect. Bring proofs with grading's and I would like the opinion of other and more knowledgeable Muslims here than me.

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1 minute ago, sunnilove2hussain said:

Brother,with all due respect. Bring proofs with grading's and I would like the opinion of other and more knowledgeable Muslims here than me.

This is what Ayatullah Muhammad Sadiq al-Ruhani states concerning adhan and iqamah:

لا خلاف ولا اشكال في أن الشهادة لعلي (عليه السلام) بإمرة المؤمنين والولاية ليست من أجزائهما

There is no disagreement and there is no problem about the fact that the shahadah for 'Ali, peace be upon him, as the Amir al-Muminin and for al-wilayah, is NOT part of them.

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Mirkhalil Newbie

Mirkhalil

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There are some hadiths that imply Muslim aren't allowed to address each other as Kafir. For example in one hadith the Prophet Muhammad says:

"  الْمُسْلِمُونَ إِخْوَةٌ تَتَكَافَأُ دِمَاؤُهُمْ وَيَسْعَى بِذِمَّتِهِمْ أَدْنَاهُم وَهُمْ يَدٌ عَلَى مَنْ سِوَاهُم"

“The bloods of Muslims are equal, their subordinates are under their protection and they are one with the exception of others”?

In another hadith he says: من کفر مومنا صار کافرا

Whoever addresses a faithful man as a Kafir, he becomes kafir himself.

The thought of Takfir spread by the enemies of Islam, so they try to separate among Muslim by this accusation and I think it is a great sedition.

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