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In the Name of God بسم الله

Is Fatima a.s the proof of Allah swt over the Imams a.s?

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15 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Stop being such a killjoy. Do you deny the possibility that Allah could have made this happen??? Can you prove this hadith isn't authentic??? Just because every other scholar in history chose not to record the hadith doesn't mean anything!!! Firstly, loads of our books have been lost. Secondly, our scholars have sometimes only tell each other ahadith from word to mouth. Anyway, I think I'll trust a real scholar over some e-scholar who's never even seen a hawza, thank you very much! Whether the hadith was actually ever said or not, the meaning is obviously correct, so the fact that you are even wasting time questioning this makes me doubt you!!

You have just written every ad-hominem/straw man/logical fallacies people often use against these sorts of challenges into one succinct reply. It takes years of being exposed to replies like that to be able to memorize it.

I felt bad for laughing, because people actually use these sort of arguments.

I think in future threads i might just quote this reply to preempt such comments lol.

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33 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Stop being such a killjoy. Do you deny the possibility that Allah could have made this happen??? Can you prove this hadith isn't authentic??? Just because every other scholar in history chose not to record the hadith doesn't mean anything!!! Firstly, loads of our books have been lost. Secondly, our scholars have sometimes only tell each other ahadith from word to mouth. Anyway, I think I'll trust a real scholar over some e-scholar who's never even seen a hawza, thank you very much! Whether the hadith was actually ever said or not, the meaning is obviously correct, so the fact that you are even wasting time questioning this makes me doubt you!!

I just wanted to say something for shia and muslim and even non-muslim users on here geneerally.

The Burden of Proof is on the one who makes the claim.

If i claim the Imam has said something, i need proof that they actually did say it. By telling me to proove that they DIDN'T say it, i could invent anything under the sun and claim they did prescribe it or say it and no-one would prove me wrong, because i can not exactly ask them in person, and the corpus of hadiths contain statements among which they authentically said, which is the only thing we can go by.

You have to prove a belief iis true - not ask the person to prove that it isn't.

Yes, in many cases you can prove something to be false - but it's absurd to apply that for everything.

 

(Also a note, to users who are not aquainted with brother haydar husayn, he isn't actually typing out this seriously. It's a compliation of replies he has had over many years on SC)

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1 minute ago, Tawheed313 said:

(Also a note, to users who are not aquainted with brother haydar husayn, he isn't actually typing out this seriously. It's a compliation of replies he has had over many years on SC)

Why did you have to ruin it? I would have received some likes!

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:bismillah:

:salam:

In the link below just put the term and you get both classic books and new books:

نحن حجج الله علی خلقه و جدتنا فاطمة حجة الله علینا

http://mizan.hadith.net/

A question if it was not true why our scholars mention it, and also you just said our classic scholars did not mention it but did not provide evidence on it, plus if you get convinced than we are eagerly waiting for another topic from you.

And also you say that the exegesis related to the 11th Imam is false, you should check hadith.net or ask a sheikh about it. Secondly even Imam Khomeini considered the women in Qom as His leader while others considered Him their leader, why is it so! What is the reason they mention it, to prove what! Other scholars have also before Imam Khomeini mentioned the same idea.

Edited by Ali.Isa
refinement
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11 minutes ago, Ali.Isa said:

 

نحن حجج الله علی خلقه و جدتنا فاطمة حجة الله علینا

http://mizan.hadith.net/

 

 Brother...I owe you for showing this resource (the website above) is like a God-send.

You guys have to check it out...

@Tawheed313 just copy and paste the hadith in the search engine...it really is amazing...

The following narration, for example, directly citing the Imams as Wasilah (a means/intercession) and Hujjat (proof), for example, has been extracted from Nahjul Balagha:

عنها عليهاالسلام :اِتَّقُوا اللّهَ حَقَّ تُقاتِهِ ... نَحنُ وَسيلَتُهُ في خَلقِهِ ، ونَحنُ خاصَّتُهُ ، ومَحَلُّ قُدسِهِ ، ونَحنُ حُجَّتُهُ في غَيبِهِ ،ونَحنُ وَرَثَةُ أنبِيائِهِ .

 

شرح نهج البلاغة لابن أبي الحديد : 16 / 211 نقلاً عن كتاب أبي بكر أحمد بن عبد العزيز الجوهريّ بإسناده عن زينب بنت عليّ عليه السلاموعن جعفر بن محمّد عن أبيه عليهماالسلاموعن جابر الجعفيّ عن الإمام الباقر عليه السلاموعن عبداللّه بن حسن بن الحسن ، وراجع دلائل الإمامة : 114 / 36 

I mean it really doesn't get any more clearer and Sahih (authentic) than that. 

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Salamunalaykum to both of you,

I am still trying to understand with the utmost respects dear brother and sister, where our Imams a.s have explicitly said Fatima a.s is the hujjat of Allah swt over them ? I do not want to debate her status as a whole, which is certianly high, nor her importance. Just the fact that she is considered to be a hujjat and proof over the imams a.s themselves.

I do not as of yet feel this has been given to me?

@Sumayyeh

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1 hour ago, Sumayyeh said:

« عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ قَالَ بَيْنَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ص صَلَّى صَلَاةَ الْفَجْرِ ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى فِي مِحْرَابِهِ كَالْبَدْرِ فِي تَمَامِهِ فَقُلْنَا يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ إِنْ رَأَيْتَ أَنْ تُفَسِّرَ لَنَا هَذِهِ الْآيَةَ قَوْلَهُ تَعَالَى فَأُولئِكَ مَعَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِمْ مِنَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَ الصِّدِّيقِينَ وَ الشُّهَداءِ وَ الصَّالِحِينَ فَقَالَ النَّبِيُّ ص أَمَّا النَّبِيُّونَ فَأَنَا وَ أَمَّا الصِّدِّيقُونَ فَعَلِيُّ بْنُ أَبِي طَالِبٍ وَ أَمَّا الشُّهَدَاءُ فَعَمِّي حَمْزَةُ- وَ أَمَّا الصَّالِحُونَ فَابْنَتِي فَاطِمَةُ وَ وَلَدَاهَا الْحَسَنُ وَ الْحُسَيْنُ فَنَهَضَ الْعَبَّاسُ مِنْ زَاوِيَةِ الْمَسْجِدِ إِلَى بَيْنِ يَدَيْهِ ص وَ قَالَ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ أَ لَسْتُ أَنَا وَ أَنْتَ وَ عَلِيٌّ وَ فَاطِمَةُ وَ الْحَسَنُ وَ الْحُسَيْنُ مِنْ يَنْبُوعٍ وَاحِدٍ قَالَ ص وَ مَا وَرَاءَ ذَلِكَ يَا عَمَّاهْ قَالَ لِأَنَّكَ لَمْ تَذْكُرْنِي حِينَ ذَكَرْتَهُمْ وَ لَمْ تُشَرِّفْنِي حِينَ شَرَّفْتَهُمْ فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ص يَا عَمَّاهْ أَمَّا قَوْلُكَ أَنَا وَ أَنْتَ وَ عَلِيٌّ وَ الْحَسَنُ وَ الْحُسَيْنُ مِنْ يَنْبُوعٍ وَاحِدٍ فَصَدَقْتَ وَ لَكِنْ خَلَقَنَا اللَّهُ نَحْنُ حَيْثُ لَا سَمَاءَ مَبْنِيَّةَ وَ لَا أَرْضَ مَدْحِيَّةَ وَ لَا عَرْشَ وَ لَا جَنَّةَ وَ لَا نَارَ كُنَّا نُسَبِّحُهُ حِينَ لَا تَسْبِيحَ وَ نُقَدِّسُهُ حِينَ لَا تَقْدِيسَ فَلَمَّا أَرَادَ اللَّهُ بَدْءَ الصَّنْعَةِ فَتَقَ نُورِي فَخَلَقَ مِنْهُ الْعَرْشَ فَنُورُ الْعَرْشِ مِنْ نُورِي وَ نُورِي مِنْ نُورِ اللَّهِ وَ أَنَا أَفْضَلُ مِنَ الْعَرْشِ ثُمَّ فَتَقَ نُورَ ابْنِ أَبِي طَالِبٍ فَخَلَقَ مِنْهُ الْمَلَائِكَةَ فَنُورُ الْمَلَائِكَةِ مِنْ نُورِ ابْنِ أَبِي طَالِبٍ وَ نُورُ ابْنِ أَبِي طَالِبٍ مِنْ نُورِ اللَّهِ وَ نُورُ ابْنِ أَبِي طَالِبٍ أَفْضَلُ مِنَ الْمَلَائِكَةِ وَ فَتَقَ نُورَ ابْنَتِي فَاطِمَةَ مِنْهُ فَخَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَ الْأَرْضَ فَنُورُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَ الْأَرْضِ مِنْ نُورِ ابْنَتِي فَاطِمَةَ وَ نُورُ فَاطِمَةَ مِنْ نُورِ اللَّهِ وَ فَاطِمَةُ أَفْضَلُ مِنَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَ الْأَرْضِ ثُمَّ فَتَقَ نُورَ الْحَسَنِ فَخَلَقَ مِنْهُ الشَّمْسَ وَ الْقَمَرَ فَنُورُ الشَّمْسِ وَ الْقَمَرِ مِنْ نُورِ الْحَسَنِ وَ نُورُ الْحَسَنِ مِنْ نُورِ اللَّهِ وَ الْحَسَنُ أَفْضَلُ مِنَ الشَّمْسِ وَ الْقَمَرِ ثُمَّ فَتَقَ نُورَ الْحُسَيْنِ فَخَلَقَ مِنْهُ الْجَنَّةَ وَ الْحُورَ الْعِينَ فَنُورُ الْجَنَّةِ وَ الْحُورِ الْعِينِ مِنْ نُورِ الْحُسَيْنِ وَ نُورُ الْحُسَيْنِ مِنْ نُورِ اللَّهِ وَ الْحُسَيْنُ أَفْضَلُ مِنَ الْجَنَّةِ وَ الْحُورِ الْعِينِ ثُمَّ إِنَّ اللَّهَ خَلَقَ الظُّلْمَةَ بِالْقُدْرَةِ فَأَرْسَلَهَا فِي سَحَائِبِ الْبَصَرِ فَقَالَتِ الْمَلَائِكَةُ سُبُّوحٌ قُدُّوسٌ رَبَّنَا مُذْ عَرَفْنَا هَذِهِ الْأَشْبَاحَ مَا رَأَيْنَا سُوءاً فَبِحُرْمَتِهِمْ إِلَّا كَشَفْتَ مَا نَزَلَ بِنَا فَهُنَالِكَ خَلَقَ اللَّهُ تَعَالَى قَنَادِيلَ الرَّحْمَةِ وَ عَلَّقَهَا عَلَى سُرَادِقِ الْعَرْشِ فَقَالَتْ إِلَهَنَا لِمَنْ هَذِهِ الْفَضِيلَةُ وَ هَذِهِ الْأَنْوَارُ فَقَالَ هَذَا نُورُ أَمَتِي فَاطِمَةَ الزَّهْرَاءِ فَلِذَلِكَ سُمِّيَتْ أَمَتِيَ «1» الزَّهْرَاءَ لِأَنَّ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَ الْأَرَضِينَ بِنُورِهَا ظَهَرَتْ وَ هِيَ ابْنَةُ نَبِيِّي وَ زَوْجَةُ وَصِيِّي وَ حُجَّتِي عَلَى خَلْقِي أُشْهِدُكُمْ يَا مَلَائِكَتِي أَنِّي قَدْ جَعَلْتُ ثَوَابَ تَسْبِيحِكُمْ وَ تَقْدِيسِكُمْ لِهَذِهِ الْمَرْأَةِ وَ شِيعَتِهَا إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ فَعِنْدَ ذَلِكَ نَهَضَ الْعَبَّاسُ إِلَى عَلِيِّ بْنِ أَبِي طَالِبٍ وَ قَبَّلَ مَا بَيْنَ عَيْنَيْهِ وَ قَالَ يَا عَلِيُّ لَقَدْ جَعَلَكَ اللَّهُ حُجَّةً بَالِغَةً عَلَى الْعِبَادِ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَة :

Source: ( بحار الأنوار ، ج‏25 ،ص 17 ) Biharal anwar, volum 25, page 17

 او دختر پيامبرم و همسر وصىّ او و حجّت من بر خلق است. شما را گواه می گيرم كه ثواب تسبيح و تقديس شما را به اين بانو و شيعيانش دادم تا روز قيامت. در اين موقع عباس از جاى خود حركت كرد و پيشانى علي بن ابى طالب را بوسيده و گفت: يا علي خدا تو را حجّت بالغه بر مردم قرار داده تا روز قيامت.»

translation of bold part--Narrated from Anas bin Malik who narrated from the Propeht (s)...the following talks about the words of Allah (swt):

".......she is the daughter of the Prophet and the wife of the Wasi (inheritor) and is my Hujjat (proof) upon my creation. I swear by you, oh angels, that I have ordained for the reward of praise for this lady and her Shias until the day of judgement. At this point, Abbas got up from his place and kissed the forehead of Ali ibn Abi Talib, and said, "Ya Ali you are the hujjat balighah upon the people until the day of judgment."

(sorry....it's a long Hadith...Inshallah further translation can be provided if upon request :))

 

 

Grading of this hadith (out of general interest)? I am not claiming it is not authentic, but Bihar Al Anwar , compiled one thousand years after Rasullah s.a.w, and by Majlisi's own admission, mixed with many unauthentic hadith, some estimating to be even 90% in terms of the chain, requires we grade hadiths in here individually.

But, if i were to accept it, this hadith talks about Fatima a.s being the proof of Allah swt upon creation. But the hadith you had stated talks about the imams a.s being proof of Allah swt over creation and Fatima a.s being proof of Allah over the imams a.s.

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5 hours ago, Tawheed313 said:

A habit i have....

is to bring disunity in Shia community. Now in our day and age that we are advised to work in favor of unity and integrity in Muslim Ummah you Alhamdulellah!! do reverse.

Just reread your previous posts and read the Tablighi life of great ulama late ones and alive ones. let me know how much you could find these two similar to each other. we can not separate the manner of ulama from the sunnat. As they initiated preaching and protecting the Shia school of thought and now all we have handed to us by their efforts.

you are either a scholar who have studied in Hawza or a student who are interested in Islamic studies and hope to help the Ummat with their misunderstandings. and may Allah help you with the holy intention you have but dear brother:

@Tawheed313,

Not every topic is suitable to be discussed everywhere.

Some of the members here have no idea about the specific rules on the science of hadith nor they have time to study it yet there are so many Ahadith in Shia resources need more than preliminary studies to be understood. so I do not think posting such Ahladith will help them rather it may weaken their belief even upon straight points. what we lack in our daily life is عمل act. barely we could find those who do completely upon what they know in their life.

I hope you wont get me wrong if the wording and the tone are harsh.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Tawheed313 said:

Grading of this hadith (out of general interest)? I am not claiming it is not authentic, but Bihar Al Anwar , compiled one thousand years after Rasullah s.a.w, and by Majlisi's own admission, mixed with many unauthentic hadith, some estimating to be even 90% in terms of the chain, requires we grade hadiths in here individually.

But, if i were to accept it, this hadith talks about Fatima a.s being the proof of Allah swt upon creation. But the hadith you had stated talks about the imams a.s being proof of Allah swt over creation and Fatima a.s being proof of Allah over the imams a.s.

Two points, first, the hadith you mentioned is saying that she [a] is the hujja over the Imams [a], this hadith is saying that she is hujja over Allah's creation, it isn't the same thing.

Second, the narration presented by the sister, from al-Bihar is a Sunni narration, look at the narrator.

حدثنا محمد بن إبراهيم بن إسحاق الطالقاني رضي الله عنه قال: حدثنا عبدالعزيز بن يحيى قال: حدثني محمد بن زكريا قال: حدثنا جعفر بن محمد بن عمارة، عن أبيه قال: سمعت جعفر بن محمد عليهما السلام يقول: ثلاثة كانوا يكذبون على رسول الله أبوهريرة، وأنس بن مالك، وامرأة

...from Jafar b. Muhammad b. 'Amara, from his father, he said: I heard Ja'far bin Muhammad [a] say: Three would lie about the Messenger of Allah, Abu Hurayra, Anas bin Malik and a woman.

(al-Khisal)

Edited by Ali_Hussain
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3 hours ago, Sumayyeh said:

 Brother...I owe you for showing this resource (the website above) is like a God-send.

You guys have to check it out...

@Tawheed313 just copy and paste the hadith in the search engine...it really is amazing...

The following narration, for example, directly citing the Imams as Wasilah (a means/intercession) and Hujjat (proof), for example, has been extracted from Nahjul Balagha:

عنها عليهاالسلام :اِتَّقُوا اللّهَ حَقَّ تُقاتِهِ ... نَحنُ وَسيلَتُهُ في خَلقِهِ ، ونَحنُ خاصَّتُهُ ، ومَحَلُّ قُدسِهِ ، ونَحنُ حُجَّتُهُ في غَيبِهِ ،ونَحنُ وَرَثَةُ أنبِيائِهِ .

 

شرح نهج البلاغة لابن أبي الحديد : 16 / 211 نقلاً عن كتاب أبي بكر أحمد بن عبد العزيز الجوهريّ بإسناده عن زينب بنت عليّ عليه السلاموعن جعفر بن محمّد عن أبيه عليهماالسلاموعن جابر الجعفيّ عن الإمام الباقر عليه السلاموعن عبداللّه بن حسن بن الحسن ، وراجع دلائل الإمامة : 114 / 36 

I mean it really doesn't get any more clearer and Sahih (authentic) than that. 

 

Sister, the topic of the discussion is sayeda Fatima [a] being the hujja on the Imams.

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If OP simply asked, does this hadith exits? no issue here[ Technical issue]

OP  posts have a lot of bells and whistles attached to them, with broad ramifications for people with insight.

so here is some info

In General- not specific to this topic.

Visible Universe is defined as what? you would need a qualifier

A] Visible to naked Eye B] Visible with ground instruments C]Visible with Instruments In Space.

Your naked eye can’t determine the Visible universe. We can go into microwave,radio etc,..

Shape and forms will be different. Point is no one method can’t  determine the whole Truth..

When we say, classical book, we should qualify it with [Books that survived], this will be the known universe here[Hadith world only].

Secondly, not all our Imams[as] were at liberty to give public lectures, and the ones that did had to be cautious. Hence, faith was transferred by them to us through “Dua'a/supplication left for us.. Include them in you study.

Our Fourth Imam[as] could have said, just say Ya Allah[awj] help. He transferred the faith to us in

Sahifa Sajjadiyya

 

Have you read Hadith Kissa, and reflected on it[ Why do you think its under attack ], even the short version,

In Dua Kumayl Ahlul Bayth introduce Allah[awj] to us, and Allah[awj] introduces Ahlul Bayth [as] to us in Hadith Kissa


Look at Karbala, Best Tafsir of  the Qur’an

Kindly, go through below, and see if you still need more to conceptually understand the issue at hand.

1]Since infallibility is a condition for the delivery and protection of the Divine message, what was the reason that Sayeda Fatima Zahra[sa] was the recipient of 33:33 ?

2]If the Light of Prophet Muhammad existed before Adam[as], Do you understand the mean of the hadith, when the Prophet Muhammad said, Fatima is part of me?

3] Surah Qadr? look all the tafsirs, see what you find there.

3] I like you to go through these videos

 

Four lectures by Ayatollah Vahid Khorasani, Marja-e Taqlid, Most Learned Jurist at the Islamic Seminary  Qom Iran.

He cites hadiths by the learned scholars and if you go through these lectures and have a holistic understanding of the Qur’an, you will not need narrations to understand Sayeda fatima Zahra[sa] true status[which is beyond our understanding]

Lecture on Sayeda Fatima Zahra[sa] 1 of 4

Lecture on Sayeda Fatima Zahra[s.a] 2 of 4

Lecture on Sayeda Fatima Zahra[sa] 3 of 4

Lecture on Sayeda Fatima Zahra [sa] 4 of 4.

 

Edited by S.M.H.A.
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3 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

If OP simply asked, does this hadith exits? no issue here[ Technical issue]

OP  posts have a lot of bells and whistles attached to them, with broad ramifications for people with insight.

so here is some info

In General- not specific to this topic.

Visible Universe is defined as what? you would need a qualifier

A] Visible to naked Eye B] Visible with ground instruments C]Visible with Instruments In Space.

Your naked eye can’t determine the Visible universe. We can go into microwave,radio etc,..

Shape and forms will be different. Point is no one method can’t  determine the whole Truth..

When we say, classical book, we should qualify it with [Books that survived], this will be the known universe here[Hadith world only].

Salamunalaykum brother,

Can you kindly explain this further?

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Ok guys....please don't go away. I want to come back and find more "proof" for yall once I have some time

I agree with Br Mahdi's sentimen...I mean I'm not a scholar from hawza, but I've listened to quite a few...and when the majority quote this Hadith, I'm in a position now that I feel compelled to defend it 

@Tawheed313 You especially don't go away

@ali_hussain bro...even if my Hadith presented above don't exactly tie out to the op...ultimately they are in support of the notion of tawassul and the concept of masumeen being hujjat...Because that also seems to be a point of contention 

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8 hours ago, Sumayyeh said:

Ok guys....please don't go away. I want to come back and find more "proof" for yall once I have some time

I agree with Br Mahdi's sentimen...I mean I'm not a scholar from hawza, but I've listened to quite a few...and when the majority quote this Hadith, I'm in a position now that I feel compelled to defend it 

@Tawheed313 You especially don't go away

@ali_hussain bro...even if my Hadith presented above don't exactly tie out to the op...ultimately they are in support of the notion of tawassul and the concept of masumeen being hujjat...Because that also seems to be a point of contention 

Dear sister, i won't go away.

My intention is not to challenge you in paticular or anyone else.

InshAllah i will be remaining here, i am not judging anyone. It's about a bigger issue as a whole.

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Imam Hasan al-`Askari [a] narrated that the Prophet Muhammad said,

"When Allah created Adam and Eve, they strut through the Garden and said, 'Allah did not create anything better than us.' So the form of a young lady appeared to them, and no seer had seen anything better (more beautiful) than her. She had a brilliant light that blinded sights. She had a crown upon her head, and earrings in her ears.

They asked, 'O Lord, who is this young lady?'

Allah said, 'This is the form of Fatima, the daughter of Muhammad, the mistress of your descendants.'

So Adam asked, 'What is this crown upon her head?'

Allah said, 'This is her husband, `Ali b. Abi Talib.'

Adam asked, 'What are these earrings?'

Allah said, 'Her sons, al-Hasan and al-Husayn. They were present as shadows two thousand years before I created you.'

رقم الحديث: 676

(حديث قدسي) أَنْبَأَنَا أَنْبَأَنَا أَبُو بَكْرٍ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ أَبِي طَاهِرٍ الْبَزَّازُ ، أَنْبَأَنَا الْقَاضِي أَبُو الْحُسَيْنِ بْنُ الْمُهْتَدِي ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الْفَرَجِ الْحَسَنُ بْنُ أَحْمَدَ ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ شَاذَانَ ، حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ مِهْرَانَ الْحَمَّالُ ، حَدَّثَنِي الْحَسَنُ بْنُ صَاحِبِ الْعَسْكَرِ ، حَدَّثَنِي عَلِيُّ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ ، حَدَّثَنِي أَبِي مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ ، حَدَّثَنِي أَبِي عَلِيِّ بْنِ مُوسَى الرِّضَا ، حَدَّثَنِي أَبِي مُوسَى بْنِ جَعْفَرٍ ، حَدَّثَنِي أَبِي جَعْفَرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ ، عَنْ جَابِرِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ، قَالَ : قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ : " لَمَّا خَلَقَ اللَّهُ آدَمَ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ وَحَوَّاءَ تَبَخْتَرَا فِي الْجَنَّةِ ، وَقَالا : مَا خَلَقَ اللَّهُ خَلْقًا أَحْسَنُ مِنَّا ، فَبَيْنَمَا هُمَا كَذَلِكَ إِذَا هُمَا بِصَورَةِ جَارِيَةٍ لَمْ يَرَ الرَّاءُونَ أَحْسَنَ مِنْهَا ، لَهَا نُورٌ شَعْشَعَانِيُّ يَكَادُ يُطْفِئُ الأَبْصَارَ ، عَلَى رَأْسِهَا تَاجٌ وَفِي أُذُنَيْهَا قِرْطَانِ ، فَقَالا : يَا رَبِّ ، مَا هَذِهِ الْجَارِيَةُ ؟ قَالَ : صُورَةُ فَاطِمَةَ بِنْتِ مُحَمَّدٍ سَيِّدَةِ وَلَدِكَ ، فَقَالَ : مَا هَذَا التَّاجُ عَلَى رَأْسِهَا ؟ قَالَ : هَذَا بَعْلُهَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ أَبِي طَالِبٍ . قَالَ : فَمَا هَذَا الْقِرْطَانِ ؟ قَالَ ابْنَاهَا الْحَسَنُ وَالْحُسَيْنُ ، وُجِدَ ذَلِكَ فِي غَامِضِ عَلِمْيِ قَبْلَ أَنْ أَخْلُقَكَ ، بِأَلْفَيْ عَامٍ " .

 

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:bismillah:

:salam:

4 hours ago, Tawheed313 said:

Dear sister, i won't go away.

My intention is not to challenge you in paticular or anyone else.

InshAllah i will be remaining here, i am not judging anyone. It's about a bigger issue as a whole.

Brother, agree it is about a bigger issue, and we need to discuss it to than explain to other siblings and even many can learn about it by visiting this excellent topic you created. As brother mahdi servant mentioned some point i agree but at the same time i say we should discuss these kind of hadith specially if we are interested in it, and solve them because if we do not care about these ahadith than who will care about them. And at start i just was not so specified and the cause was because this topic is so nice and i have the honor to read your and other siblings posts so i chilled.

Anyways one of the things we should look after is our understanding of the word Hujjat, and that it can even mean and be defined differently based on the hadith and its contend. But to be honest there is not much visible about these kind of ahadith and it is extraordinary difficult to talk about them, but we can try to reach a basic and common understanding of it.

Here another discussion, if you find anything let us know also: http://www.yahosein.com/vb/showthread.php?t=209692

http://hadith.net/en/post/33772/argument/

الإمام على عليه السلام: إنّ الأَدَبَ حُجَّةُ العَقلِ، وَالعِلمُ حُجَّةُ القَلبِ .
امام على عليه السلام: ادب، حجّت خرد است، و دانش، حجّت دل.
أعلام الدين: ص 96.

الإمام الكاظم عليه السلام: يا هِشامُ، إنَّ للّهِِ عَلَى النّاسِ حُجَّتَينِ: حُجَّةً ظاهِرَةً وحُجَّةً باطِنَةً؛ فَأَمَّا الظّاهِرَةُ فَالرُّسُلُ وَالأَنبِياءُ وَالأَئِمَّةُ عليهم السلام، وأَمَّا الباطِنَةُ فَالعُقولُ.
امام كاظم عليه السلام: اى هشام! خدا را بر مردم، دو حجّت است: حجّتى بيرونى و حجّتى درونى. حجّت بيرونى، فرستادگان و پيامبران و امامان اند، و حجّت درونى، خِردهايند .
الكافي: ج 1 ص 16 ح 12، تنبيه الخواطر: ج 2 ص 35 كلاهما عن هشام بن الحكم، تحف العقول: ص 386، بحار الأنوار: ج 1 ص 137 ح 30.

عنه صلى الله عليه و آله: إنَّ عَلِيَّ بنَ أبي طالِبٍ خَليفَةُ اللّهِ وخَليفَتي، وحُجَّةُ اللّهِ وحُجَّتي.
پيامبر خدا صلى الله عليه و آله: على بن ابى طالب، خليفه خدا و خليفه من و حجّت خدا و حجّت من است.
الأمالي للصدوق: ص 271 ح 299، بشارة المصطفى: ص 31 ، كنز الفوائد: ج 2 ص 13 كلّها عن محمّد بن الفرات عن الإمام الباقر عن آبائه عليهم السلام، مائة منقبة: ص 58 ح 14
.

So how is the last hadith possible, it is more difficult to maybe answer, because as Ayatollah Subhani answers that the hadith you have put is not from jurisprudence perspective rather from another perspective but this third hadith you can not explain with Ayatollah Subhanis answer. The writer of the link says that the scholar is twisting the meaning of hujjat without putting the meaning of hujjat for us and of course from our own sources. Because if others do not get convinced by our sources why should we get convinced by others so to make us understand they must use our sources. Can one find in the video that he twisted in other questions! To read about hujjat-argument -, some more hadith one can refer to hadith.net link so we can build firstly a definition of the word. But still the first hadith i put one see that even other things have hojjat but the hojjat is different, even there is outer and inner hojjat. Many are not into hadith sciences and knowing chains and their authenticity so if we take it from hadith university under Ayatollah Reyshahri we accept it as he is one of our scholars and they have done already the necessary research for its authenticity.

"In the following video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob-gjIFD89w ), people ask Ayatullah Jafar Subhani questions related to beliefs. At 10 min 33 sec (10:33), someone asks him about this hadith. So Ayatullah Jafar Subhani twists the meaning of “Hujjat” and says that this is not Hujjat according to Sharia, this is only to signify the high position of Fatima (as), moreover we cannot base our Aqeeda on this Hadith because this Hadith is “Khabar al Wahid” (Solitary narration), and Aqeeda can only be based on the vserses of Quran and Mutawatir Narrations (narrations with multiple chains of narrations)." Notes: https://shiareformist.wordpress.com/2016/01/06/is-fatima-as-hujjat-on-the-imams/

Is this guy some super hadith scholar just in one article he makes the hadith fabricated without evidence. He does not even give example of one of baseless present day shia belief-of course skipping the tadbir -, some example that has to do with belief that is baseless and our scholars do not inform us about it and keep 'silence'.

"It seems Ayatullah Subhani did not tell the whole truth, either because he isn’t aware of it (which is improbable) or because he doesn’t want to expose other baseless present day popular shia beliefs, because there are many other beliefs which are based on narrations as baseless as this narration.

The reality is that this narration has NO SANAD (no chain of narrators), and this narration CANNOT be found in any original books of hadith, nor in the books of History or Tafseer.

So where did this narration come from?

Well this narration only popped up out of no where in the 20th century. The first book that mentions this narration is “أطيب البيان ج 13 ص 225  ”, “Atyabul Bayaan fee Tafseeril Quraan by Sayyid Abdul Husain al-Tayyib (1893 – 1990 AC)”."

In these sentences even not logical reasoning is used let alone intellectual argumentation! This and that passed with tafseer Imam Askari being fabricated. He does not put proof and documentation that when all these scholars passed or maybe some got martyred i do not know, that they did not know about this hadith.

"It is surprising that for all these centuries Sheikh Kulayni passed, Nomani passed, Sadooq passed, Mufeed passed, Toosi passed, the fabricator of Tafseer Imam al-Askari passed, Majlisi passes, Hurr al-Aamili passed, Muhaddith Noori passed, Faydh al-Kashaani passed…….so many Muhadditheen passed, and none of them ever knew that Imam had ever said this, until this guy who is born after all these centuries comes forward and claims that Imam Hasan al-Askari said this Hadith."

I did not saw the quotation in your first post on regard to fabrication of tafseer Imam Hasan al-Askari Peace upon Him, but still you say Hazrat Abol Fazl Peace upon Him and His thirsty lips, does not have the status without putting your research. "(like hazrat abbas a.s being given exclusive babul hawa'ij status) i did research into it." Again your research is for yourself if a Marja or scholars do not accept it, and at least you proof that you have the necessary qualifications to research these issues.

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22 hours ago, Tawheed313 said:

 

The hadith you quoted in your opening post, is not in the classical books. No issue here. Problem solved.

 

You are concerned with the particular title that people  are giving, no issue.

Do you think, people have the right to ask you,

 

1] What is your understanding of the Status of Sayeda Fatima Zahra [s.a]?

 

-----

Qur’an/Hadith/Aql

-----

In addition to the material provided in previous posts, here is some more material for your review and reflection.

 

1/1 (Al-Kulayni's disciples say): Abu Ja`far Muhammad ibn Ya`qub (al-Kulayni, the compiler of al-Kafi informed us, saying: A group of our companions (i.e. al-Kulayni's teachers), among them Muhammad ibn Yahya al-`Altar1, narrated to us from Ahmad ibn Muhammad2 , he from al-Hasan ibn Mahbub3, from al 'Ata' ibn Razin4 , from Muhammad ibn Muslims5 from Abu Ja'far (al-'Imam al-Baqir) (A) that he said:

 

When God created the Intellect (al-`Aql), He examined it. Thereupon He said to it: `Come forward!' It came forward. Then He said: `Go back!' It went back. Thereupon He said: `By My power and majesty, I didn't create any creature dearer to me than thee! I will not make thee perfect except in one whom I love. Indeed, to thee are My orders and-prohibitions addressed. And for you are My rewards and retributions reserved.'

 

http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/general-al-tawhid/selections-usul-al-kafi-muhammad-ibn-yaqub-al-kulayni/i-book-intellect





 

“'Abdu 's-Salam al-Harawi said:

"I said to ar-Rida (a.s.): 'O son of the Messenger of Allah! tell me about the tree from which Adam and Hawwa' ate, what was it? Because people do have different views about it; some have narrated that it was a wheat-plant, and others have reported that it was the tree of envy.'

 

He said: 'All this is true.' I said: 'Then what do these explanations, with their differences, mean?'

 

He said: 'O son of as-Salt! verily the tree of the Garden bears (fruits of) many kinds; and it was a wheat-plant and (yet) it bore grapes; and it was not like a tree of this world. And when Allah raised the status of Adam by making the angels prostrate before him and by placing him in the Garden, he said: "Has Allah created any man superior than me?" And Allah knew what had came into his mind; so He called out to him: "Raise your head, O Adam! and look at the pillar of the Throne."

 

So, he looked at the pillar of the Throne and found written on it: "There is no god except Allah; Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; 'Ali ibn Abl TaIib is the Leader of the faithful, and his wife, Fatimah is the Chief of the women of the worlds, and al-Hasan and al-Husayn are the Chiefs of the youths of the people of the Garden." Adam said: "O my Lord! who are they?" He, Mighty and Great is He said: "O Adam! they are (from) your off-springs; and they are better than you and all My creation; and if it were not (for) them, I would have not created you, nor the Garden, nor the fire, nor the heaven, nor the earth. So be careful not to look at them with envious eyes; otherwise, I will turn you out of My nearness."

 

But he looked at them with envious eyes and entertained the hope of (attaining to) their rank. So, the Satan got the better of him, until he ate from the forbidden tree; and got the better of Hawwa', and she looked at Fatimah with envious eyes until she too, like Adam, ate from the tree. Thereupon, Allah turned them out of His Garden, and got them down from His nearness to the earth.'" ('Uyunu'l-akhbar)

 

The author says: This matter has been described in many traditions, some more detailed than this; others, more concise. In this tradition, the lmam has confirmed that the tree was the wheat-plant, and also that it was the tree of envy. The former implies that the tree was not worthy of attention of the people of the Garden; the later indicates that it was too lofty to come within the grasp of Adam and his wife (as a tradition says that it was the tree of the knowledge of Muhammad and his progeny).....”

 

"But he looked at them with envious eyes and entertained the hope of (attaining to) their rank": The second clause explains the first; Adam wanted that he too should attain to that status; it was not that he was envious (i.e., had any ill will) against them. Envy is a vice, while aspiring to raise one's status is not.”

 

Commentary Surah 2: Verse 35

Tafsir Al-Mizan BY ALLAMAH MUHAMMAD HUSSEIN TABATABAI

www.almizan.org

 

'Aishah reported:

On one occasion all the wives of the Prophet (ﷺ) were with him when his daughter, Fatimah (May Allah be pleased with her) who walked after the style of his father, came there. He (ﷺ) welcomed her saying, "Welcome, O my daughter", and made her sit on his right side, or on his left side and then whispered something to her at which she wept bitterly. When he perceived her grief, he talked secretly to her again and she smiled (with happiness). I said to her: "Messenger of Allah (ﷺ chose you from amongst all his wives to speak secretly to you and yet you cried." When he left, I asked her, "What did Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say to you?" She said, "I will not divulge the secret of Messenger of Allah (ﷺ)." When Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) passed away, I said to her: "I adjure you by the right I have in respect of you to tell me what Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) had told you." She said: "Now (when Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) has died), I will tell you. When he whispered to me the first time, he told me, 'Jibril (Gabriel) used to listen to my recitation of the Qur'an and then recite it back to me once or twice a year, and this time he has done it twice; and so I perceive that my death is approaching. Then be mindful of your duty to Allah and be patient and steadfast, for I shall be an excellent predecessor for you.' On this I wept as you saw. When he perceived my distress he talked to me secretly the second time and said, 'O Fatimah, are you not pleased that you will be the chief among the believing women or of this Ummah?' This made me smile as you saw."

http://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/2/7

Narrated Anas:

When the ailment of the Prophet (ﷺ) got aggravated, he became unconscious whereupon Fatima said, "Oh, how distressed my father is!" He said, "Your father will have no more distress after today." When he expired, she said, "O Father! Who has responded to the call of the Lord Who has invited him! O Father, whose dwelling place is the Garden of Paradise (i.e. Al-Firdaus)! O Father! We convey this news (of your death) to Gabriel." When he was buried, Fatima said, "O Anas! Do you feel pleased to throw earth over Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)?"

http://sunnah.com/bukhari/64/478

 

Narrated `Aisha:

Once Fatima came walking and her gait resembled the gait of the Prophet (ﷺ) . The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Welcome, O my daughter!" Then he made her sit on his right or on his left side, and then he told her a secret and she started weeping. I asked her, "Why are you weeping?" He again told her a secret and she started laughing. I said, "I never saw happiness so near to sadness as I saw today." I asked her what the Prophet (ﷺ) had told her. She said, "I would never disclose the secret of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)." When the Prophet (ﷺ) died, I asked her about it. She replied. "The Prophet (ﷺ) said: 'Every year Gabriel used to revise the Qur'an with me once only, but this year he has done so twice. I think this portends my death, and you will be the first of my family to follow me.' So I started weeping. Then he said. 'Don't you like to be the chief of all the ladies of Paradise or the chief of the believing women? So I laughed for that."

http://sunnah.com/bukhari/61/129

Edited by S.M.H.A.
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On 1/21/2016 at 6:01 AM, Sumayyeh said:

 The following narration, for example, directly citing the Imams as Wasilah (a means/intercession) and Hujjat (proof), for example, has been extracted from Nahjul Balagha:

عنها عليهاالسلام :اِتَّقُوا اللّهَ حَقَّ تُقاتِهِ ... نَحنُ وَسيلَتُهُ في خَلقِهِ ، ونَحنُ خاصَّتُهُ ، ومَحَلُّ قُدسِهِ ، ونَحنُ حُجَّتُهُ في غَيبِهِ ،ونَحنُ وَرَثَةُ أنبِيائِهِ .

 

شرح نهج البلاغة لابن أبي الحديد : 16 / 211 نقلاً عن كتاب أبي بكر أحمد بن عبد العزيز الجوهريّ بإسناده عن زينب بنت عليّ عليه السلاموعن جعفر بن محمّد عن أبيه عليهماالسلاموعن جابر الجعفيّ عن الإمام الباقر عليه السلاموعن عبداللّه بن حسن بن الحسن ، وراجع دلائل الإمامة : 114 / 36 

I mean it really doesn't get any more clearer and Sahih (authentic) than that. 

 

Bismillah

Sorry, which part of that narration is Saheeh? You're quoting from the Mu'tazzilite Sunni scholar, Ibn Abi Hadid (whose Sharh i like for some reasons), where the narrations starts with 'Naqlan' - one narrater from his 'Isnad' to Zainab the daughter of Ali (a). Then a 'Mursal' narration from Imam Ja'far Sadiq (a) quoting his father (a). Then, a 'Mursal' from Jaabir al-Ju'fi (who has a Tadh'if) from Imam Baqir (a), and lastly what seems to be like a non-narration (but the reporting of Abdullah b. Hasan b. al-Hasan) since it isn't linked to an infallible. 

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@Tawheed313 @Ali.Isa @S.M.H.A. @mahdi servant.01@Al-Englisi

Salaam dear Hadith experts:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but just because a Hadith is not quoted in the classical hadith books--does not mean automatically cast it aside. Or is that the case that op and others are ultimately making? If so, then maybe a thread should be created regarding that issue...

Unfortunately, I personally don't have the resources to prove the grading for every hadith that's quoted from Bihar...and obviously I understand the importance of the chain of narration, but I think it's also important to not cast doubt on every hadith quoted from there unless warranted...and for that I must say@Ali_Hussain pointed out an interesting catch on the hadith narrated from Anas b. Malik...but isn't it interesting that Sunni sources are in support of the Imams as being Hujjah as well? 

As for Ahadith that are not derived from classical sources...from what I've noticed, the protocol follows like this..look at the source (i.e. the reliability of author), and we look at previous Ahadith that are sahih, and if the Hadith aligns with those previous Hadith, then we have a reasonable case for its reliability, and that certainly seems to be the case regarding the status of Bibi Fatimah (s).

1) Masumeen are Hujjah (check)

حضرت امیرمؤمنان علیه‌السلام از پیامبر اکرم صلی الله علیه و آله و سلم نقل کرده است که پیامبرفرمود:
«من، علی، فاطمه، حسن، حسین و نه فرزند حسین علیهم‌السلام حجتهای خدا بر خلق او هستیم. دشمنان ما دشمنان خدا و دوستان ما دوستان خدا هستند» (بحارالانوار، مجلسی، ج36، ص 228).

Imam Ali (a) has narrated from the Prophet Muhammad (s): I, Ali, Fatimah, Hasan, Hussein, and the 9 sons of Hussain are the Hujjat of God upon the creations. Their enemies are the enemies of God, and their friends are the Friends of God.

Source: Bihar al Anwar, Majlesi, volume 36, page 228)

.الإمام الرضا عليه السلام :نَحنُ حُجَجُ اللّهِ في خَلقِهِ ، وخُلَفاؤُهُ في عِبادِهِ ، واُمَناؤُهُ عَلى سِرِّهِ . ونَحنُ كَلِمَةُ التَّقوى ،وَالعُروَةُ الوُثقى .

امام رضا عليه السلام : ما حجّت هاى خداييم در ميان خلايق و جانشينان او در ميان بندگانش و معتمدان او در اسرارش . ما كلمه تقوا و دستاويز

Al Imam Ridha(a): We are the Hujjat of Allah upon the creations, and the khulafa among his worshipers, and the entrusted ones of his secrets, and we are the word of Taqwa and Urwatul Wuthqa.

source:  كمال الدين : ص 202 ح 6

2) Fatimah (s)'s status surpasses that of all of the Anbiya (prophets) and is the source of Nur for the other Masumeen (refer to the "Nur" hadith I presented above)...check

3) Fatimah (s)'s status as the Uswah (Guiding Example) for the Imams...check:

-  امام عصر عجل الله تعالی فرجه الشریف که فرموده اند: «وفی ابنة رسول الله صلی الله علیه و آله لی اسوة حسنة: دختر رسول خدا صلی الله علیه و آله برای من الگوی نیکویی است»

Imam Zaman (aj): And in the daughter of Rasullallah (s) is an example/model of righteousness for Me.

Sources: (الغیبه، طوسی، ص 286؛ الاحتجاج، طبرسی، ج2، ص279؛ بحارالانوار، مجلسی، ج53، ص 180)، 

Al-Ghayba, page 286; Al-Ihtijaj-Tabrisi volume 2, page 270, Bihar al Anwar-Majlesi volume 53, page 180)

Fatimah (s)'s status of Umme-Abeeha is also a point of contention in support of the hadith quoted in the op btw.

 

Just a personal observation:The very name of Fatimah (s) is enough to make the most knowledgeable and universally recognized scholars of our time to tremble....all while claiming who really can begin to understand the status of Fatimah (s)?

 

اللهم صل على فاطمة وأبيها و بعلها و بينها و السر المستودع فيها بعدد ما أحاط به علمك و ما أحصاه كتابك

Edited by Sumayyeh
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Bismillah 

@Sumayyeh

Wa'alaykum asSalam

Firstly and unfortunately, i am not an expert in any field or subject, let alone Ahadith, and we shouldn't assign these titles to people who know a few terms, can use google or just keep posting narrations. Being an expert in anything requires years of dedicated commitment towards that area/field. Unless you were being sarcastic, then it's all good, although slightly mean. 

 

Regarding 'Bihaar al-Anwaar', since it is a book with many weak or unreliable narrations, and it was never the authors intention to collect only authentic or trustworthy narrations, we can not deal with it in the way you suggest. We have to be careful of whatever we find in there and make sure we can trace it back to the original source, narrator and other similar narrations on the topic (either similar in text or in meaning). This is something you also mentioned in your post. 

 

Nonetheless, the above discussion or the material you keep posting, is not a the point if contention. Every Shia agrees that the lady Fatima (s) enjoyed a very high status, and was greatly respected and admired. The discussion is regarding a particular attribute being given to her (s) - being a hujjah over the Imams. WIth all the narrations we have in regards to the Imams being hujjah's of God (without mentioning any exceptions), one or two weak narrations can not come and challenge that idea, and place someone above the Imams (a). Especially in matters of `Aqaa'id, where khabar waahid has no place according the most, if not all the maraaje', since the requirement is certainty and surety, not 'itminaan' or 'dhan'. 

 

So this thread is not about posting narrations regarding Sayyida Fatima (s), but regarding this particular status and attribute (as quoted in the original/opening post). 

My aim wasn't to discuss the narration, i was just surprised how someone could claim that a narration was Saheeh when it had so many flaws. 

I hope by this, it is not misunderstood that i agree with user Tawheed313 or even like his approach or method, my views on that are irrelevant (in some ways) right now and i do not wish to derail the thread any further. 

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15 hours ago, Sumayyeh said:

@Tawheed313 @Ali.Isa @S.M.H.A. @mahdi servant.01@Al-Englisi

Salaam dear Hadith experts:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but just because a Hadith is not quoted in the classical hadith books--does not mean automatically cast it aside. Or is that the case that op and others are ultimately making? If so, then maybe a thread should be created regarding that issue...


@Ali_Hussain

للهم صل على فاطمة وأبيها و بعلها و بينها و السر المستودع فيها بعدد ما أحاط به علمك و ما أحصاه كتابك

Dear sister,

I am not a hadith expert in any way. Many times on these boards i have made clear i am no expert and no way near half or a tenth or even 1/100th of the knowledge of some people on these boards.

All i wished to do by this thread, is to ask about the validity of this hadith , and the matn of it which people claim.

It is not an attack against you dear sister. I earnestly and honestly just want to know if it came through any reliable paths to our imams a.s

The reason why my methods may be as they are is i remember growing up and hearing story after story, belieivng it all and getting older and finding so many of them had no basis. I lost trust, and so i try to question everything i hear. This does not mean i think i'm better or an expert, i merely question from those who have more knowledge to give me references, sources, gradings , and explain if the grading is weak, other means why we should take it (as rijal is not the be all and end all i know).

That's all.

 

 

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@Sumayyeh

@Tawheed313

@Al-Englisi

@Ali.Isa

@S.M.H.A.

Salam to all

I am not an expert in this field but we wish to be some day.

as for this thread and other threads with respect to Ahadith posted in this forum we should bear in mind that the approach nowadays is being applied on validity of Ahadith is not what our great early scholars [up to Sheikh Bahaei] have been doing. and this is a well known theory in Elm -Rijal.

So this common thinking that we easily could verify or cast aside every hadith through four gradings [Sahih - Dhaef - Hasan - Moeathaqe] is not a scientific approach upon Ahadith.

There are many indications in our Hadith resources implying this idea.

There is a farsi link speaks of this deeply you could refer.

one of the indications is the Ahadith collected in our four most authenticated books

If you refer to the introduction of these books you will see that the great author is saying that i did my best to collect the most authenticated and reliable Ahadith in my book to save the legacy of Shia from distortion. They were much more knowledgeable than us and very surprisingly thorough which the knowledge of Hadith has been handed over to us yet we see that more than half of such book which has been gathered meticulously looks NOT SAHIH to us.

what I want to say as a last word is to be more cautious about Ahadith and do not limit our understanding of Ahadith by casting them aside easily.

Not to derail the thread any longer.

thank you.

 

 

Edited by mahdi servant.01
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2 minutes ago, mahdi servant.01 said:

Walaykumsalam

In this case dear brother, the hadith in the OP is not even found in the likes of bihar, a work compiled over one thousand years after Rasullah s.a.w.

 

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2 minutes ago, Tawheed313 said:

Walaykumsalam

In this case dear brother, the hadith in the OP is not even found in the likes of bihar, a work compiled over one thousand years after Rasullah s.a.w.

 

 

what I said was not specifically about the hadith that OP posted. it was the general thinking and approach we might take upon Ahadith.

any way regardless the validity of this so-called hadith, I do not agree to spread such controversial ideas in our community [that Hzt Zahra is the Hujjah over the imams ] nor I believe we should have such discussion on that.

may Allah help you and all of us to preach Islamic teachings the way that pleases Imam Asr.

 

 

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@Tawheed313

No worries, I know you're not attacking me or anyone else...

The whole point I was trying to make in my post above is that if we're going to question a Hadith just because it's not directly linked to a classical source, then we have to look at the whole story and other Ahadith that have scholars putting 2 and 2 together to make 4...if you know what I mean. The issue of Fatimah (s) as hujjah over the Imams comes with a line of reasoning and science to determine if we can reasonably assume its reliability...hence why this Hadith in particular is oft quoted. 

I appreciate that you related your experiences with different things you might have heard growing up. So, I think it's important to get to the source of the matter...I.e. How do we go about discussing a Hadith that is not in the classical sources per se, so that we give each matter it's due justice. 

If I personally took this matter to heart it's because...Fatimah (s) is my lifeline :) 

Jazakallah kheyr everyone, I respect the approach everyone took and is taking to respond. Also, Sorry if my "expert" greeting didn't come off too well...it was a bit sarcastic I admit..but I do admire your guys' knowledge Mashallah..I just hope every issue which your knowledge contends to is given full justice in every regard...thanks.

 

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34 minutes ago, Sumayyeh said:

 

 

AsSalaamu Alaykum

I have never ever said I have any knowledge, just for the record, I have not studied in any Islamic hawza[school] or a student of any scholar or a student of a student in training. My little knowledge is due to the Imam Husayn[as] open university that open on 1st of Muharram. To avoid any perception I label my post as Layman, as much as possible.


I try to utilize  Qur’an/Hadith/Aql and read the opinions of the Jurist/scholars in matters related to faith.First I consider/ponder/reflect on the concepts before going to seek justification from available sources. It's like understand Theory before going to the lab. If a particular hadit is not found in the “Classical Books” does not mean they do not exit at all, if the concept is clear in Quran and can be deduced from other traditions of the Ahlul bayt[as]. It’s sufficient for now. Aql[intellect] is the decisive factor here. Without Intellect, one can’t understand the Qur’an or Hadith.

Layman.

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Bismillah

Wasalam alaykum, 

Sorry guys, i'm not too familiar with this '@' function, but just a request. Since i'm not sure what part of the replies are relevant to me, and i don't want to read long replies addressed to others, please quote me if you're replying to me, so i know exactly what part of my post you are tackling. With the other method, i can't tell if my post is being addressed or not, even after reading the whole reply. 

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