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In the Name of God بسم الله

A question for you all

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In the name of Allah the beneficient the merciful,

 

Salamunalaykum,

 

So in recent discussions on tawassul and istighata, i have come to find that actually, there are great divisions of opinion among shias.

I ask you in the name of Allah not to copy and paste tawassul arguments. I believe in it. I've watched the lectures, read all the verses.

Personally, i don't see any shirk in asking the prophet s.a.w to pray to Allah swt for you, or asking Allah swt for the sake of Muhammed s.a.w. I would feel quite sick, with due respect , in asking Muhammed s.a.w to help my wife safely deliver a baby, or to cure my ill grandmother, or to forgive all of my sins.

If you can kindly give me a clear yes or no - i am not looking to debate you, nor am i looking for people to attack me personally or use the 'wahhabi' card, i just want to know , yes or no, if you find the below acceptable:

 

1. Asking Hazrat Abbas a.s to forgive your sins, or to cure your ill grand mother, or to help your wife safely deliver a healthy baby, or to help you pass an exam, or to help you find a spouse, or to grant you jannah, or to help end oppression on earth, with the belief Hazrat Abbas a.s is the one Allah swt has given the power to do so- so it is not independent, and hence you believe it is perfectly acceptable to directly do dua to him and that he will grant you these things - as Allah swt has given him the power to do so.

 

I ask you to please respect what i am trying to do here, a simple yes or no.

 

May Allah swt bless you.

 

 

Edited by Tawheed313
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  • Development Team
27 minutes ago, Tawheed313 said:

In the name of Allah the beneficient the merciful,

 

Salamunalaykum,

 

So in recent discussions on tawassul and istighata, i have come to find that actually, there are great divisions of opinion among shias.

I ask you in the name of Allah not to copy and paste tawassul arguments. I believe in it. I've watched the lectures, read all the verses.

Personally, i don't see any shirk in asking the prophet s.a.w to pray to Allah swt for you, or asking Allah swt for the sake of Muhammed s.a.w. I would feel quite sick, with due respect , in asking Muhammed s.a.w to help my wife safely deliver a baby, or to cure my ill grandmother, or to forgive all of my sins.

If you can kindly give me a clear yes or no - i am not looking to debate you, nor am i looking for people to attack me personally or use the 'wahhabi' card, i just want to know , yes or no, if you find the below acceptable:

 

1. Asking Hazrat Abbas a.s to forgive your sins, or to cure your ill grand mother, or to help your wife safely deliver a healthy baby, or to help you pass an exam, or to help you find a spouse, or to grant you jannah, or to help end oppression on earth, with the belief Hazrat Abbas a.s is the one Allah swt has given the power to do so- so it is not independent, and hence you believe it is perfectly acceptable to directly do dua to him and that he will grant you these things - as Allah swt has given him the power to do so.

 

I ask you to please respect what i am trying to do here, a simple yes or no.

 

May Allah swt bless you.

 

 

Sorry bro, but I don't think that's acceptable. So, no.

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13 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

- are waseela allowed? yes

I agree with you to a certain extent but it is better to pray to Allah on the side of precaution.

17 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

- does Babul Hawayej Abul Fadhl Abbas (as) qualify as a legitimate waseela? undoubtedly

Abbas (as) may have been a matyr and may qualify as a waseela, but isn't as per hadiths so for you to say "undoubtedly" is taking it too far. Only Aima Masomeen are to be used as a waseela if you must do it.

31 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

when people say "oh Abbas! answer my hajaat" do you seriously believe that the asker believes that Abul Fadhl Abbas has power separate or independent to Allah? 

 

You never know about people, they could very well believe that but we are not to judge; That is a matter between a man and His Creator. If they do, then it is shirk.

 

37 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

am guessing you are about to now talk about "there are no hadith that say call abul fadhl abbas so its wrong". am i right?

 

In the lieu of brother Tawheed, I will say this to you, please don't get upset: If there are no hadiths recording of the Imams calling Abul Fadhl Abbas "babul hawayej", should we go ahead and do so? I think not, DU. You need to prove that it is permissible to call Abul Fadhl Abbas from the Qur'an and the teaching and sayings of the Ahlulbayt.

48 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

so its completely fine to do it.

Only when you can prove it, brother. You need to back up your words with proof.

51 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

the quran says in one place that the angel of death takes our souls at the moment of death. it says in another place that Allah takes our souls at the moment of death. literalists like yourself probably think that this is a contradiction in the quran, while the rest of us understand without you having to guide us back to tawheed

I agree with you on that, there is no contradiction whatsoever in this verses. Only a literalist would dare disagree with you on that.

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There are some who, unfortunately, carry their love for the Ahlul Bayt of the Prophet too far, and think them virtually independent of Allah.

In the way you have phrased it (Abbas being the only one who can answer the dua), it is wrong.

But, I personally don't think you have to address only Allah (ex:"bi-haqqi") or say necessarily "bi iznillah" or even mention Allah (s.w.t.) directly and verbally. Whenever I say "Ya Ali," I myself am certain that I am asking a slave of Allah, whom Allah has granted some power to, with the hope that Allah has allowed him to hear me.

I know some people may say these things with other intentions, but by Allah, this is my niyyah every time.

You can judge me for it and call it wrong. It's Allah's judgement that I fear.

Edited by Patience101
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6 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Abbas (as) may have been a matyr and may qualify as a waseela, but isn't as per hadiths so for you to say "undoubtedly" is taking it too far. Only Aima Masomeen are to be used as a waseela if you must do it.

we have an example of a globally respected marja taqleed - Sayed Qazwini - calling Hazrat Abbas (as) "fulfiller of desires". not even babul hawayej - full on fulfiller of desires. would you say the marja is committing shirk? of course not, maybe it isn't as evil and shia-nation-destroying as OP is suggesting. maybe its yet another non issue that Shiachatters are getting worked up about.

never mind Abul Fadhl Abbas (as) - we have lectures from sheikh vahid khorasani where he talks about people using mujtahids who have passed away as their waseela, by wiping their alams against the mujtahids graves! is that shirk?

maybe shia arent idiot mushriks in need of OP guiding us all back to tawheed. what do you reckon?

15 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

You never know about people, they could very well believe that but we are not to judge; That is a matter between a man and His Creator. If they do, then it is shirk.

irrelevant.

unless OP can produce evidence of someone on this forum actually believing that shirk is ok (hint: he wont) then this entire thread is just hot air. he is spamming the forum repeatedly with this exact topic and it is becoming tiresome. he is looking for outrage in a place where outrage is not to be found. none of us here have shirk-y views. why doesnt he go out in the real world and find people who believe abul fadhl abbas has powers like allahs, and go guide them instead of eating our heads on this forum?

17 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

In the lieu of brother Tawheed, I will say this to you, please don't get upset: If there are no hadiths recording of the Imams calling Abul Fadhl Abbas "babul hawayej", should we go ahead and do so? I think not, DU. You need to prove that it is permissible to call Abul Fadhl Abbas from the Qur'an and the teaching and sayings of the Ahlulbayt.

sigh.

in our fiqh - all things are halal, unless they are forbidden. 

the imams never said do NOT call abul Fadhl Abbas (as) babul hawayej - so it is halal

 

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13 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

in our fiqh - all things are halal, unless they are forbidden. 

the imams never said do NOT call abul Fadhl Abbas (as) babul hawayej - so it is halal

Actually, the Qur'an - which is GREATER than the Ahl al-Bayt, 'alaihim al-salam - has forbidden that:

 وَلَا تَدْعُ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ مَا لَا يَنفَعُكَ وَلَا يَضُرُّكَ فَإِن فَعَلْتَ فَإِنَّكَ إِذًا مِّنَ الظَّالِمِينَ وَإِن يَمْسَسْكَ اللَّهُ بِضُرٍّ فَلَا كَاشِفَ لَهُ إِلَّا هُوَ وَإِن يُرِدْكَ بِخَيْرٍ فَلَا رَادَّ لِفَضْلِهِ يُصِيبُ بِهِ مَن يَشَاءُ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ وَهُوَ الْغَفُورُ الرَّحِيمُ

Do not call on something besides Allah which can neither help nor harm you. If you do, you will then be wrongdoers. If Allah afflicts you with harm, no one can remove it except Him. If He desires good for you, no one can avert His favour. He bestows it on whichever of His slaves He wills. He is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Qur'an 10:106-107

Basically, even the Prophet, sallallah 'alaihi wa aalih, is INCAPABLE of helping or harming you. So, you must not call on him. And, here, we are even talking of a pious individual who was infinitely inferior to the Messenger of Allah.

 

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Salam

Although I believe the word "Du'a" there is prayer, the logic that Allah alone has harm or benefit is there in Quran as well as in the mutuwatir munajatal Shabaniya.  There it's not emphasizing the worship aspect, but, the aspect of it not being able to help and to emphasize on that emphasizes only Allah can help us when it comes to what perpetually truly harms us and what truly and perpetually benefits us.

I think I have to agree with Abu Fatima Al-Mohammadee then.  

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29 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Actually, the Qur'an - which is GREATER than the Ahl al-Bayt, 'alaihim al-salam - has forbidden that:

 وَلَا تَدْعُ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ مَا لَا يَنفَعُكَ وَلَا يَضُرُّكَ فَإِن فَعَلْتَ فَإِنَّكَ إِذًا مِّنَ الظَّالِمِينَ وَإِن يَمْسَسْكَ اللَّهُ بِضُرٍّ فَلَا كَاشِفَ لَهُ إِلَّا هُوَ وَإِن يُرِدْكَ بِخَيْرٍ فَلَا رَادَّ لِفَضْلِهِ يُصِيبُ بِهِ مَن يَشَاءُ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ وَهُوَ الْغَفُورُ الرَّحِيمُ

Do not call on something besides Allah which can neither help nor harm you. If you do, you will then be wrongdoers. If Allah afflicts you with harm, no one can remove it except Him. If He desires good for you, no one can avert His favour. He bestows it on whichever of His slaves He wills. He is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Qur'an 10:106-107

Basically, even the Prophet, sallallah 'alaihi wa aalih, is INCAPABLE of helping or harming you. So, you must not call on him. And, here, we are even talking of a pious individual who was infinitely inferior to the Messenger of Allah.

 

completely out of context. 

[10.104] Say: O people! if you are in doubt as to my religion, then (know that) I do not serve those whom you serve besides Allah but I do serve Allah, Who will cause you to die, and I am commanded that I should be of the believers.
[10.105] And that you should keep your course towards the religion uprightly; and you should not be of the polytheists.
[10.106] And do not call besides Allah on that which can neither benefit you nor harm you, for if you do then surely you will in that case be of the unjust.

is the verse you quoted talking about muslims seeking a waseela, or idol worshippers?

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4 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

completely out of context. 

[10.104] Say: O people! if you are in doubt as to my religion, then (know that) I do not serve those whom you serve besides Allah but I do serve Allah, Who will cause you to die, and I am commanded that I should be of the believers.
[10.105] And that you should keep your course towards the religion uprightly; and you should not be of the polytheists.
[10.106] And do not call besides Allah on that which can neither benefit you nor harm you, for if you do then surely you will in that case be of the unjust.

is the verse you quoted talking about muslims seeking a waseela, or idol worshippers?

But notice how it emphasized that if Allah desires any harm to him no one can avert it but HIM and if he desires good no one can avert him but Him. This is emphasizing not on the worship aspect, but the seeking help/relying on others.

That is why if we seek guidance from Ahlulbayt (as) or even Quran, we should seek refuge in God because at the end, it's up to God to guide us or misguide us, and all benefit and harm is his hands. That is why Du'a is the essence of worship, he didn't put lords aside from him that we may in the mercy of others, but rather, we are at the mercy of God.

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43 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

completely out of context. 

[10.104] Say: O people! if you are in doubt as to my religion, then (know that) I do not serve those whom you serve besides Allah but I do serve Allah, Who will cause you to die, and I am commanded that I should be of the believers.
[10.105] And that you should keep your course towards the religion uprightly; and you should not be of the polytheists.
[10.106] And do not call besides Allah on that which can neither benefit you nor harm you, for if you do then surely you will in that case be of the unjust.

is the verse you quoted talking about muslims seeking a waseela, or idol worshippers?

So, you think some other people can also benefit or harm others besides Allah? That's strange.

Meanwhile, perhaps you will agree with these words from Nahj al-Balaghah:

Do not seek help or protection from anybody but Allah. Reserve your prayers, your requests, your solicitations, your supplications, and your entreaties to Him and Him alone because to grant, to give, to confer and to bestow, as well as to withhold, to deprive, to refuse, and to debar, lies only in His Power. Ask as much of His Blessings and seek as much of His Guidance as you can.

Realize this truth, my son, that the Lord who owns and holds the treasures of Paradise and the earth has given you permission to ask and beg for them and He has promised to grant your prayers. He has told you to pray for His Favours that they may be granted to you and to ask for His Blessings that they may be bestowed upon you. He has not appointed guards to prevent your prayers reaching Him. Nor is there any need for anybody to intercede before Him on your behalf.

Edited by أبو فاطمة المحمدي
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Salam

Abu Fatima Al-Mohammadi, you brought a muhkam verse from Quran. I think the logic there in is even more reasonable.

If whatever good God desires will reach us and no one can stop it but Him, and whatever harm he desires us no one can stop it but Him, then this emphasizing on the seeking help aspect of prayer and not the worship aspect.

If this is true, why rely on other then God?  

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2 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Salam

Abu Fatima Al-Mohammadi, you brought a muhkam verse from Quran. I think the logic there in is even more reasonable.

If whatever good God desires will reach us and no one can stop it but Him, and whatever harm he desires us no one can stop it but Him, then this emphasizing on the seeking help aspect of prayer and not the worship aspect.

If this is true, why rely on other then God?  

Unfortunately, many Shi'ah do what they like.

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4 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Unfortunately, many Shi'ah do what they like.

Salam

We are all too attached to our religious leaders to think clearly over the Quran. This verse I think is muhkam regarding this subject. Let's think about this with patience inshallah and the matter will become clear inshallah to others as well.

What role does intercession then have from this view point? I think we have to see it that intercession only occurs when God pleases it on two parts. 1. The one seeking the intercession. 2. The intercessor. That said, it makes more sense to seek it from God. Notice how Quran emphasized when they go to the Rasool, that they ought to ask forgiveness from God as well, and not just ask the Rasool to intercede.

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1 hour ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

But notice how it emphasized that if Allah desires any harm to him no one can avert it but HIM and if he desires good no one can avert him but Him. This is emphasizing not on the worship aspect, but the seeking help/relying on others.

you are clutching at straws now. 

if only Allah can avert good, harm etc, then why did the bani israel in the quran repeatedly ask hazrat Musa (as) to intercede to Allah on their behalf, and not ask Allah directly? did they commit shirk in the presence of a prophet?

off the top of my head they asked musa to ask Allah to:

- send food from heaven
- send water in different springs so different tribes could drink separately

1 hour ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

That is why if we seek guidance from Ahlulbayt (as) or even Quran, we should seek refuge in God because at the end, it's up to God to guide us or misguide us, and all benefit and harm is his hands. That is why Du'a is the essence of worship, he didn't put lords aside from him that we may in the mercy of others, but rather, we are at the mercy of God.

irrelevant argument. when have I (or anyone else) said that we believe our waseela has power separate to Allah, that you need to specify we must only ask Allah?

if one prayed for death from the angel of death, does that person think that the angel of death can do something without allahs permission?

40 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

So, you think some other people can also benefit or harm others besides Allah? That's strange.

is that what I said?

40 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Do not seek help or protection from anybody but Allah

see my multiple identical previous points. you ignoring them doesnt make them go away.

 

 

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They ended up asking Allah through Musa though and Musa was able to let them know if their prayer is acceptable to Allah or not. When Musa is present, it's an automatic way to know if your prayer to God regarding a matter is accepted or not. Do you think Jews today if they ask Musa the same exact things, like for rivers to come out of the ground while he is not present, will get the same response from Allah [swt]?

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight
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10 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

if only Allah can avert good, harm etc, then why did the bani israel in the quran repeatedly ask hazrat Musa (as) to intercede to Allah on their behalf, and not ask Allah directly? did they commit shirk in the presence of a prophet?

We are all unanimous that tawassul is the Sunnah of the Prophet, sallallah 'alaih wa aalih. You can ask the Prophet or the Imam, or any other pious servant of Allah, to pray to Him on your behalf - whether alive or dead. There is no dispute about this among us. Rather, if someone says "Ya 'Ali!" with the intention of tawassul, it is perfectly okay. Also, if someone says "Ya 'Ali, help me" with the intention of "Ya 'Ali, help me pray to Allah for my needs," it is correct.

The problem is when the du'a is not directed to Allah anymore, but to one of His creatures. The Qur'an and the Ahl al-Bayt have forbidden this.

Edited by أبو فاطمة المحمدي
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7 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

We are all unanimous that tawassul is the Sunnah of the Prophet, sallallah 'alaih wa aalih. You can ask the Prophet or the Imam, or any other pious servant of Allah, to pray to Him on your behalf - whether alive or dead. There is no dispute about this among us. Rather, if someone says "Ya 'Ali!" with the intention of tawassul, it is perfectly okay. Also, if someone says "Ya 'Ali, help me" with the intention of "Ya 'Ali, help me pray to Allah for my needs," it is correct.

The problem is when the du'a is not directed to Allah anymore, but to one of His creatures. The Qur'an and the Ahl al-Bayt have forbidden this.

and you can prove that shiachatters commit shirk can you? that we need the likes of you to teach us the error of our ways?

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Salam bro Abu Fatima Al-Muhamadee.

What do you think if we turn to Allah for help against Satan, and then to Imam Mahdi to be that help? While the intention to Allah is the of Lord and Master, while intention to Imam is that he does by God's permission and you recognize his station, while you are asking Allah to help you by the Imam?

 

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Yes, wasila is the best way or you could say a true channel through which our duas could be heard and accepted by Allah. Though the channel should be reliable, not like something kind of a baba type. People who have higher authority after Allah undoubtely the Ahlulbayt are the true channel.

I'm bit in a surprise that most of the people replying our either un aware of what hes actually trying to ask or they do truly neglect thing such as 'Wasila'.

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35 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Salam bro Abu Fatima Al-Muhamadee.

What do you think if we turn to Allah for help against Satan, and then to Imam Mahdi to be that help? While the intention to Allah is the of Lord and Master, while intention to Imam is that he does by God's permission and you recognize his station, while you are asking Allah to help you by the Imam?

The question is not clear. Are you asking whether we can say "I seek refuge with Imam al-Mahdi from the accursed Shaytan" instead of "I seek refuge with Allah from the accursed Shaytan"? If that is what you are asking, then there are very serious problems with it. First, there is a specific recommended formula which Allah has taught us. We cannot just substitute it. Secondly, no prophet or Imam ever did such a thing; and we are supposed to imitate them only. Lastly, if you want to claim that Imam al-Mahdi, 'alaihi al-salam, has the authority and power to protect people from Shaytan, then you have to get first clear proofs from the Qur'an and Sunnah for such a thought. We cannot just assume things in the religion. And, don't forget that Imam al-Mahdi himself is being protected from Shaytan by Allah (which is why he is a ma'sum, a "protected" one).

Edited by أبو فاطمة المحمدي
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16 minutes ago, Abrar7866 said:

I'm bit in a surprise that most of the people replying our either un aware of what hes actually trying to ask or they do truly neglect thing such as 'Wasila'.

Directing your du'as directly to a creature is not tawassul. It is something else. The brother asked about that something else.

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2 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

The question is not clear. Are you asking whether we can say "I seek refuge of Imam al-Mahdi from the accursed Shaytan" instead of "I seek refuge of Allah from the accursed Shaytan"? If that is what you are asking, then there are very serious problems with it. First, there is a specific recommended formula which Allah has taught us. We cannot just substitute it. Secondly, no prophet or Imam ever did such a thing; and we are supposed to imitate them only. Lastly, if you want to claim that Imam al-Mahdi, 'alaihi al-salam, has the authority and power to protect people from Shaytan, then you have to get first clear proofs from the Qur'an and Sunnah for such a thought. We cannot just assume things in the religion.

No I mean we seek refuge in God, but that Imam Mahdi comes and helps us with his light, by asking Allah to help us. For example in Du'a arifni we ask to be guided by the hands of Imam Mahdi. All I mean is that type of guidance he has been assigned to do. Not that he protects us from evils or what not instead of Allah.

For example in a Du'a against black magic on www.duas.org, we say "O Allah help us by the obedient spirits" and that during the du'a we say, "Jibrael is on my right, Michael on my left, and Mohammad is in front of me and Ali is from behind me".

I mean if we can ask Allah to help by Imam, not that Imam is going to replace taking refuge in Allah.

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1 minute ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

No I mean we seek refuge in God, but that Imam Mahdi comes and helps us with his light, by asking Allah to help us. For example in Du'a arifni we ask to be guided by the hands of Imam Mahdi. All I mean is that type of guidance he has been assigned to do. Not that he protects us from evils or what not instead of Allah.

For example in a Du'a against black magic on www.duas.org, we say "O Allah help us by the obedient spirits" and that during the du'a we say, "Jibrael is on my right, Michael on my left, and Mohammad is in front of me and Ali is from behind me".

I mean if we can ask Allah to help by Imam, not that Imam is going to replace taking refuge in Allah.

I do have issues with many of those du'as, by the way. The du'as of the prophets and righteous believers are there in the Quran. You do not find anything similar to that in them.

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2 minutes ago, Abrar7866 said:

Then why do we say "YA ALI MADAD"? Why not say "YA Allah MADAD"? The same argument the Wahhabis make.

Playing the "Wahhabi" card won't do you any benefit. So, let's keep this civil still. Anyway, the Wahhabis call you people mushrikun because some of you actually turn Imam 'Ali into a little "Allah" to whom they make their du'as. Let's face the fact. I was personally informed by a Pakistani guy that he performs all his salats for Imam 'Ali, and directs all his du'as to him, claiming that the noble, innocent Imam is the "manifestation" of Allah. The strange part is that he called his Shirk the true "marifat" of Allah.

 

 

 

 

 

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