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In the Name of God بسم الله

So I guess I'm a Wahhabi...

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6 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Salam

These things are sensitive. Some people like Sunnis accept hadithal thaqalain means Ahlulbayt are guides to the umma, but then take it to mean follow the fallible scholars from them as opposed to Chosen ones.

Some people want to make following Ahlulbayt as chosen Imams, but today to be following their example as passed on by hadiths and history only.

Some people believe in something else all together. That hadiths are prone to fabrications, that Quran has many faces, and that ilmel rijaal is not an concrete science, and we are in need of guidance from ALIVE Ahlulbayt, mainly that of Imam Mahdi.

And then out of the latter, there two type of hadiths that have been attributed to Ahlulbayt (as), one that asks Allah to help us by obedient spirits or asks us to be guided by Imam Mahdi on the right path and eventually see his light without night in it and that through him we seek nothing but God's face. 

There are others however that while we ask Allah, we ask Ahlulbayt as well.

Then there are others where we just Ahlulbayt. 

These are what the traditions have handed to us.

I am not aware of any hadith that says do not talk to us while we are absent or it is shirk. Or don't ask of us anything while we are dead or it's shirk. You would think they would of warned us.

At the end, I am leaning towards that these hadiths are not fabrications, but pointing to us to something. 

I maybe be wrong. I've been going through pyschosis these past two weeks and every time I do, it seems that this issue I take a different angle to it.

I hope Allah guides me to the truth of this issue.

From what I've seen both sides don't present the issue with clarity. And we need to reach a better conclusion through a thorough deep understanding.

 

Salam, 

I believe that if we put the Quran above all first we are able to reach a common understanding. 

The verse says, 'My people have abandoned the Quran'. It doesn't say, 'My people have abandoned the Quran and Ahaadith' so let us take the Quran as common ground. 

Because if we do not, things will stay unclear forever.

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I have many issues with this thread. I feel that a serious topic is being discussed in an emphatic way. Instead of presenting the issue and discussing it, we have a moderator posting an "Anti-M

This is from al-Khisal of Shaykh al-Saduq (ra): حدثنا محمد بن الحسن بن أحمد بن الوليد رضي الله عنه قال: حدثنا محمد بن الحسن الصفار، عن الحسن بن موسى الخشاب، عن يزيد بن إسحاق شعر، عن عباس بن يزيد،

The video starts off by calling Fatima the 'goddess of Ithna Ashari shias' (nauzubillah) and puts 'majoos' wherever the word 'Ahlul Bayt' comes up. Their sole sources are these idiotic ghuluw scholars

2 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

There are others however that while we ask Allah, we ask Ahlulbayt as well.

Then there are others where we just Ahlulbayt. 

These are what the traditions have handed to us.

I would like to see those ahadith. Please post them. I believe no such ahadith exist.

Quote

I am not aware of any hadith that says do not talk to us while we are absent or it is shirk. Or don't ask of us anything while we are dead or it's shirk. You would think they would of warned us.

I have given a hadith that says making du'a to any Imam or prophet (or other creatures) makes you a polytheist. That apart, there are TONS of explicit verses in the Qur'an that expressly forbid making du'a to other than Allah.

Quote

At the end, I am leaning towards that these hadiths are not fabrications, but pointing to us to something.

At least, we need to see the so-called ahadith first!

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I disagree that this is a mainstream belief among shia or a common belief. 

You can find Ghulat(extremists) in every community. I have heard this thing before about 

Hazrat Abbas(a.s) being 'bab al hawarij' but I only heard it once, and I have met thousands

of Shia in my lifetime. So 1 out of a thousand is not really that common. 

The video proves one thing, that if you walk around Iraq long enough, you will find a so called 'scholar' who is preaching Ghulaw and nonsense from the minbar. But we already knew that, right ? 

So what is the point of the video ? 

 

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2 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

The video proves one thing, that if you walk around Iraq long enough, you will find a so called 'scholar'

who is preaching Ghulaw and nonsense from the minbar. But we already knew that, right ? 

So what is the point of the video ? 

The video is obviously intended to warn other Shi'ah from falling into the traps of those pulpit-climbing ghulat.

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8 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

I disagree that this is a mainstream belief among shia or a common belief. 

You can find Ghulat(extremists) in every community. I have heard this thing before about 

Hazrat Abbas(a.s) being 'bab al hawarij' but I only heard it once, and I have met thousands

of Shia in my lifetime. So 1 out of a thousand is not really that common. 

The video proves one thing, that if you walk around Iraq long enough, you will find a so called 'scholar' who is preaching Ghulaw and nonsense from the minbar. But we already knew that, right ? 

So what is the point of the video ? 

 

Is there any scholar who didn't teach these things though from Shia aside from Fadlallah?

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2 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

The video is obviously intended to warn other Shi'ah from falling into the traps of those pulpit-climbing ghulat.

No, I suspect the ones who made this video have ulterior motives, like disparaging Shi'ism to nothing more than a silly, baseless, fabricated 'religion'. This becomes blatantly obvious from their other derogatory and deceitful videos (look at the kind of language they use).

But what hurts the most is that in this video they are right...

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1 minute ago, Vestige said:

No, I suspect the ones who made this video have ulterior motives, like disparaging Shi'ism to nothing more than a silly, baseless, fabricated 'religion'. This becomes blatantly obvious from their other derogatory and deceitful videos (look at the kind of language they use).

But what hurts the most is that in this video they are right...

Well, Imam al-Baqir, 'alaihi al-salam, in a reliable hadith stated that Shi'ahs would be divided into 13 sects. 12 of them will be in Hellfire, and only 1 of them will be in Paradise. These are corroborations of that hadith.

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2 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Could you please name the scholars who teach "these things" that you know?

Imam Khomeini in one of his books says "And I ask the help of his chosen friends..." for example. I'll have to find the book and source.

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I've said this before...Wahhabism's call to monotheism was a necessary reaction at its time to the superstitions that accumulated in Islam among Sufis and Shias. If we have stuff like this in the 21st century, imagine the 1700s when most people were illiterate peasants, there probably was a very clouded understanding of monotheism back then.

The reason Wahhabism went off the rails is because from the beginning it took a violent takfiri character. Instead of just preaching to people about not praying to saints, they waged violent wars and started this extreme militant Islam we see today.

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I hope that God gives me success, for He is the best helper and companion, just as I ask His pure friends for help in this world and the next. 

Misbahal hidayah of Imam Khomeini. Introduction at the end of it.

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33 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Wahhabism itself is idolatry. The "Allah" they worship - "Who" has bodily forms and bodily organs - does NOT exist. So, they only worship an imaginary being, and that is the core of Shirk.

So they exchanged the many gods for an antropmorphic one. 

What a trick!

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1 hour ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Is there any scholar who didn't teach these things though from Shia aside from Fadlallah?

Yes.

One currently alive, a marji.

 

Grand Ayatullah Muhammed Hussain Najafi

 

Grand Ayatollah Allama Shaikh Muhammad Hussain Najafi (Arabic/Persian/Urdu/Punjabi: آية الله العظمی علامہ الشیخ محمد حسین النجفي) (born April 1932) is a Twelver Shi'i alim from Pakistan and has been elevated to the status ofmarjiyyat. At present, there are two maraji of Pakistani descent, the other one Basheer Hussain Najafi. As Basheer Hussain Najafi has chosen to reside in NajafIraq, Muhammad Hussain Najafi is the only marja' on Pakistani soil, running a Hawza in Sargodha.[1] He was included in the lists "The 500 Most Influential Muslims" for the years 2010 and 2011.[2][3]

 

175px-MHN_Image122.jpg

 

"Muslim should only ask Allah for mery, help, for childern, for money and everything. A Muslim (Shia) can't ask masoomeen directly to give all these things. We can't say O Ali give me a child or O Hussain give me money rather we should ask Allah and use the masoomeen as an intermediary." - Translation by ShiaChat user Marbles

 

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And

 

Here is the Marja:

 

Grand Ayatollah[1][2] Seyed Reza Hosseini Nassab (Persian: سيد رضا حسيني نسب) (born 1960) is an Iranian Twelver Shi'a Marja,[3][4][5] currently residing in Canada.[6] He was the President and Imam of the Islamic Centre inHamburgGermany, and since 2003 he has served as the President of Shia Islam Federation “Ahlul Bayt Assembly of Canada".

MANY DO NOT REGARD HIM AS A MARJI, BUT MERELY AN AYATULLAH

Here was my question:

 

Dear respected Marajah,

I have read volumes of books on waseelah, tawassul, so i know the concepts. However, to clarify, is it permissible to:
1. Call on Ali a.s to forgive sins, to grant our dua, to grant us children and protection
Or
2. Calling on Allah swt for the sake of Ali a.s, or asking Ali a.s rather than to grant us children, to pray to Allah swt and beg Allah swt on our behalf
Which is the proper and which is the incorrect form of tawassul
 
And the answer:
 
In the name of Allah
Salaam Alaikum,
The second one is proper and recommended. 
Best Regards, 
 
(The signature's IMAGE is not permitted on the Forum, but it was answered with his seal)

 

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4 minutes ago, Tawheed313 said:

Sayed Hadi Qazwini Reply (These are authentic replies, i am not making it up, WALLAHi)

24b52k3.png

 

You should ask him what he thinks about the prayer to Fatima (a). You can pack a whole lot of stuff into the 'essentially' he used when describing tawassul.

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3 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

You should ask him what he thinks about the prayer to Fatima (a). You can pack a whole lot of stuff into the 'essentially' he used when describing tawassul.

I'm going to start a project to try and collect atleast four marji, and about twenty or so clerics and speakers who believe in tawassul, who believe in asking the imams a.s to pray for you, or saying bihhaqi, rather than asking the imams a.s to forgive your sins, grant you a baby etc.

I'll make sure i make my question specific and warn them in advance not to explain tawassul as i know.

And then when we get names, i can try to lobby them to give talks to distinguish the better kind of tawassul.

This in my eyes is a shady practise. And i believe shady practises not totally found in the sunnah while prevelant also have a weakness.

 

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8 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

You should ask him what he thinks about the prayer to Fatima (a). You can pack a whole lot of stuff into the 'essentially' he used when describing tawassul.

My hypothesis: There may be many shia's who do not believe an Imam can directly grant you a baby, or forgive all your sins for you, but that the imam a.s can only plead before Allah swt to you.

Many who say Ya Ali Madad may fall into the latter bracket.

If so, then it's important to campaign for them to say EXACTLY what they mean.

I want to create a vocal and credible division and difference of opinion, and it may only take the success of lobbying one scholar or one known speaker to fire up the debate if they then give a recorded talk.

 

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I am just trying to understand the logic.

God says in the Quran, if there was a another god with God, the heavens and earth would be corrupted.

If Imams can help us spiritually and we are allowed to seek their help, you guys are saying the heavens and the earth would be corrupted?

From what I understand of Quran, it's saying, do not equate anything that possibly can exist with God.  The emphasis on that they prayed to them is emphasis of a type of worship they did but it doesn't mean it's the same thing if a Shia calls out to Imams for intercession for example.

It's saying if there was anything at the level of the highest being, then heavens and earth would be corrupted. So to me, it's all about equating with the highest being things that should be seen as incomparable to him.

Otherwise it doesn't seem to make sense to say if Imam can hear our calls to him, all together, it would make the heavens and the earth corrupted. Or if Imam can spiritually help us by us calling out to him, the heavens and the earth would be corrupted. Yet according to you guys people who believe such about the Imams are believing they are gods. So this would be the case.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight
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3 hours ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Salam

Imams taught things to everyone level of faith. I don't mind being called a disbeliever or ghulat or mushrik, it doesn't matter to me.

I know I worship Allah [swt] alone.

There is Du'as where Imams taught to ask Allah for help of Mohammad and Ali from Allah. There is other words of Ahlulbayt in which they taught us to seek help from Ahlulbayt directly.

Here is a discussion about the "help of Fatima" in the Namaz of Fatima. Also regarding the weakening of the one of the narrators as ghulat, read on later how we have muwathaq hadiths about it's his trustworthiness from Imams: 

 

Even if this individual later became reliable and repented from his ways, it is known, or atleast, stated that this individual was at one time a ghali.

Therefore he may have narrated or made up hadiths of ghali fashion.

I need another answer also:

1. When is the earliest recorded source of this salah, and tell me if the book itself is considered to be reliable.

Mufadhal Ibn Umar was on the right path but then subsequently deviated as we read in Rijal ibn Dawood, page 280:

إنه رجع خطابياً بعد استقامته وحمل ما ورد في مدحه على حال استقامته أولاً

“He (Mufadhal bin Umar) became Khatabi after being straight, and the praises about him relate to his period of straightness”.

Even shiapen struggles to fully equit him: http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/sunni-myth-love-adherence-ahlulbayt-as/nasibi-propaganda-prominent-onshia-narrators.html

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4 hours ago, Ali_Hussain said:

I wonder who these speakers are that are spreading these deviant ideas around Iraq.

Well the thing is this video is not about shirk or anything. The sheikh is being misunderstood here. Now before anyone start philosophising or over explaining the obvious: I am not a fan of Al Muhajiri (The sheikh in the video who is a common face on some shia channels ).

Putting Wahhabis and all their circus aside, the thing is there is 2 main schools if we can call them that in Arab world amongst Shia :

1- First school calls for no Ttabir, no intimidation of Sunnis or instigating hatred with them. (Wars are exclusion, the talk here is about regular and social connections with them) To do so, this schools calls for a halt of some cultural shia activities or non essential shia activities or even sometime some may say fundamental shia activities.

2- second school is calling for talking about everything shia believe in and do publicly and not making any sort of barrier of public speech or intervention. Instead, they call for no military wars and no political interventions.

Sheikh almuhajiri is from the second school . He is attacking the first school for not being hardcore shia and putting emphasis on Tawassul. He is seeing the other school calling for a sort of understanding similar to Wahhabis.

Now the problem with the Wahhabi version of towhead isn't only in tajsim but also in the tawheed of obedience : which is to make the source of authority one source.

Allah = prophet = Imam orders because the orders of the imam is the order of Allah but we can't ask Allah directly, we have to ask the imam about our fiqh or laws.

This understanding is lacking in Wahhabism, they call for best sort of tawheed as they claim but practically their source of obedience isn't one but multiple ( companions, uli alamr : Sultans, opinions).

Al Muhajiri is saying that the statement : We obey Allah alone if not explained properly as in we Obey Allah alone and follow all authorities that He appointed because that's part of obeying him alone... then according to almuhajiri, we are adopting this partially correct understating of Tawheed from Wahhabis.

 

I think i belong to the second school. Although what almuhajiri said might be true i totally disagree on his methods and him not caring about what is to be said in public. Imams instructed us clearly to talk to people (instead of shunning them away) to talk to them with what they know, and leave what they dont know< Meaning to not bring what we think is the epoch of knowledge and try to stuff it down their throat even if they were not ready yet . We might be even be wrong in our understanding and our approach.

 

Then you have the 

3- Third school which is the circus ... WHATEVER will bring more likes and views will be turned to yummy social media meal.

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Ok I'm a Sufi Sunni and I just watched this video. The first point is that Wahabis' videos always have ulterior motives. Even in this video they added the image of the Hindu goddess Kali and also added the word "goddess" in brackets after the name of Sayyida Fatima (s.a.) .I don't know Arabic very well but I am pretty sure the speaker did not use the word "goddess" for SAyyida Fatima? 

 

I do not know about this prayer which he is referring to but I did NOT understand his words to mean you should do salah for sayyida Fatima (nauzubillah). It might be some kind of special namaz for fulfilling needs. I do not know of this particular one but I do know that in authentic Sunni sources (not Wahabi) special prayers and duas exist for seeking help. As a Qadiri Sufi we have a dua called Salat al Ghawthiyyah, for example, which is a dua taught by Sayyidina Ghawlth al Azam Abdul Qadir Jilani (ra) to seek help from Allah via the Ghawth.I have used it and it works alhamdulillah. 

 

If Shaykh Abd al Qadir Jilani (q) can help, who is both Hassani and Hussaini sayyid, don't you think his noble ancestors the Imams of Ahlul Bayt, or Hazrat Abbas or other members of the Aal, can't help? They are greater than Huzoor Ghawth al Azam!

I am Sunni and I routinely say, "Ya Ali madad!", or "Ya Hussain!" etc. (or Ya Shaykh Abdul Qadir! etc. etc.)  The issue of tawassul is a delicate one and people often misunderstand it. It is all to do with intention. If you believe Allah has given these holy saintly people the power to help his servants then it is not shirk. If you believe these people can help independently of Allah then it would be shirk but no Muslim, as far as I know, has ever believed that! 

When I say, "Ya Ali madad!" I know it is because Allah has given Mawla Ali (a.s.) the power to help those in need! And that is true of all his saintly servants. 

There is that famous verse in the Qur'an about calling upon Allah and His Messenger and those who give charity whilst in ruku....which we all believe refers to Ali (a.s.)

This article by the Lebanese scholar Dr. Gibril Haddad is excellent about the permissibility of calling upon other than Allah for help with evidences:

http://www.sunnah.org/aqida/madad.htm

 

 

 

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Some hadith:

1. Al-Bukhari narrates in his Sahih that our mother Hajar, when she was running in search of water between Safa and Marwa, heard a voice and called out: "O you whose voice you have made me hear! If there is a ghawth (help/helper) with you (then help me)!" and an angel appeared at the spot of the spring of Zamzam.

2. Abu Ya`la, Ibn al-Sunni, and al-Tabarani in al-Mu`jam al-Kabir narrated that the Prophet (saws) said: "If one of you loses something or seeks help or a helper (ghawth), and he is in a land where there is no one to befriend, let him say: "O servants of Allah, help me! (ya `ibad Allah, aghithuni), for verily Allah has servants whom one does not see."  Al-Haythami said in Majma` al-Zawa'id (10:132): "The men in its chain of transmission have been declared reliable despite weakness in one of them."

Another wording:

3. Al-Bayhaqi narrates on the authority of Ibn `Abbas in "Kitab al-Aadaab" (p. 436) and with a second chain mawquf from Ibn `Abbas in "Shu`ab al-Iman" (1:445-446=1:183 #167; 6:128 #7697) and a third from Ibn Mas`ud in "Hayat al-Anbiya' ba`da Wafatihim" p. 44: "Allah has angels on the earth - other than the [two] record-keepers - who keep a record [even] of the leaves that fall on the ground. Therefore, if one of you is crippled in a deserted land where no-one is in sight, let him cry out: a'înû 'ibâd Allâh rahimakum Allâh, 'Help, O servants of Allah, may Allah have mercy on you!'  Verily he shall be helped, if God wills."  Ibn Hajar said its chain is fair (isnaduhu hasan) in "al-amali".

Narrated by al-Tabarani in al-Kabir with a fair chain (according to Ibn Hajar in al-Amali) of sound narrators according to al-Haythami (10:132), al-Bazzar (#3128) - as cited by al-Shawkani in Tuhfa al-Dhakirin (p. 219=p. 155-156) -, and Ibn Abi Shayba (7:103).

4. Ibn Abi Shayba relates in his "Musannaf" (7:103) from Aban ibn Salih that the Prophet (saws) said: "If one of you loses his animal or his camel in a deserted land where there is no-one in sight, let him say: "O servants of Allah, help me! (yâ 'ibâd Allâh a'înûnî), for verily he will be helped."

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6 minutes ago, Chaotic Muslem said:

@warisshah2012

You are correct. He did not use "Goddess" or any similar word in his talk. He is talking about istighatha : Seeking aid and help from Sayyida Fatimah. Wahhabis consider istighatha a form of shirk.

Shi'a consider istighatha through un authorised individuals to be shirk.

The majority of sunni's i've met also consider it shirk, and the majority are not wahhabis

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Personally I just want to post some great hadiths we have on this subject, without insha Allah getting into too much controversy.

 

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علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن الحسين بن سعيد، عن فضالة، عن أبان، ومعاوية بن وهب قالا: قال أبوعبدالله (عليه السلام): إذا قمت إلى الصلاة فقل: اللهم إني اقدم إليك محمدا (صلى الله عليه وآله) بين يدي حاجتي وأتوجه به إليك، فاجعلني به وجيها عندك في الدنيا و الآخرة ومن المقربين، اجعل صلاتي به مقبولة وذنبي به مغفورا ودعائي به مستجابا إنك أنت الغفور الرحيم

Ali bin Ibrahim from his father (Ibrahim bin Hashim) from Husayn bin Said from Fadhala (bin Ayub) from Aban (bin Uthman) AND Muawiya bin Wahb who said: Abu Abdillah عليه السلام said: when you stand to (go and) pray then say: O my Lord, I give preference to Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله (over myself in front of You) and place Him between my outsretched hands in need (of You), and turn to You through Him, so make me through Him an intimate of Yours in this world and the next, and from among the close ones (to You), and make my prayers through Him accepted, and my sins through Him forgiven, and my supplications through Him answered, Indeed You are the most Forgiving – the Merciful. (Hasan due to Ibrahim

Taken from: https://mutabaralkafi.wordpress.com/2012/11/17/chapter-19-of-kitab-as-salat/

 

 

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[PART OF A LONGER DU'A from Kitab al-Kafi, al-Majlisi said it is hasan]

I direct myself to You through Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad, I ask You through You and them to send Blessings upon Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad and to do for me this or that.

Also, a quote from a scholar, Shaykh al-Ta'ifi al-Tusi [RA], who shared his commentary regarding a certain hadith. May Allah [SWT] have Mercy upon him and may He be pleased with him.

 

Quote

Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Isa from Ibn Abi Umayr from the one he narrates from - who said: Abu Abdillah said: if it becomes too distant for you the journey, and whose house is far away, should climb to the highest position in his home, and pray a two Rakaat prayer, and should make Salaam towards our graves, for that reaches us.

at-Tusi says after the Hadith - commenting on it:

and the Taslim (sending of Salaam) to the Aimmah Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã from afar is exactly like the Taslim (sending of Salaam) on them from near [their graves], except that it is not correct to say in it - 'I have come to you' rather you say in its place - 'I intend with my heart your visitation since I was prevented from presence in your sanctum - and I have sent my Salaam to you with the knowledge that it reaches you Õáì Çááå Úáíß - so intercede for me to your lord ÚÒ æÌá' - and you pray for what you wish.

Translated by brother Islamic Salvation, and taken from here:

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Chaotic Muslem said:

@warisshah2012

You are correct. He did not use "Goddess" or any similar word in his talk. He is talking about istighatha : Seeking aid and help from Sayyida Fatimah. Wahhabis consider istighatha a form of shirk.

Shi'a consider istighatha through un authorised individuals to be shirk.

So if a Sufi does it with Abdul Qadir Jilani, then it's shirk, but if a Shia does it with Sayyida Fatima (a), then it's not shirk?

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3 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

So if a Sufi does it with Abdul Qadir Jilani, then it's shirk, but if a Shia does it with Sayyida Fatima (a), then it's not shirk?

If a Muslim kissed the black stone and "handshake it" it isn't a shirk. But if you believed that Martian stone is blessed then that's a shirk.

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21 minutes ago, Chaotic Muslem said:

 

Then you have the 

3- Third school which is the circus ... WHATEVER will bring more likes and views will be turned to yummy social media meal.

 

Haydar Husyan definitely does not fall into this. Nor do i, nor do the people on this thread. Check our our other posts.

The third group might consist of people who genuinely have no interest in being apologists for sunni's or shias and have made up their opinions after a lot of thought and research.

Additionally , the difference between group 1 and 2 is not simply taqqiyah. I do not believe Um. Aisha commited adultery because there is no credible evidence. I do not believe she murdered rasullah s.a.w because there is no credible evidence. I do not believe the second caliph practised homosexuality because there is no credible evidence.

I am not doing taqqiyah.

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8 minutes ago, The Batman said:

Personally I just want to post some great hadiths we have on this subject, without insha Allah getting into too much controversy.

 

 

 

Also, a quote from a scholar, Shaykh al-Ta'ifi al-Tusi [RA], who shared his commentary regarding a certain hadith. May Allah [SWT] have Mercy upon him and may He be pleased with him.

 

 

No problems with asking through Muhammed s.a.w. We find it even in sunni hadith.

I only have a problem asking the imam a.s to forgive all my sins, asking the imam a.s to grant me jannah, asking the imam a.s to grant me a child etc.

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2 minutes ago, Tawheed313 said:

 

Haydar Husyan definitely does not fall into this. Nor do i, nor do the people on this thread. Check our our other posts.

The third group might consist of people who genuinely have no interest in being apologists for sunni's or shias and have made up their opinions after a lot of thought and research.

Additionally , the difference between group 1 and 2 is not simply taqqiyah. I do not believe Um. Aisha commited adultery because there is no credible evidence. I do not believe she murdered rasullah s.a.w because there is no credible evidence. I do not believe the second caliph practised homosexuality because there is no credible evidence.

I am not doing taqqiyah.

I am not talking about an individuals . The schools are some big factions. The third school has its own cyber army that dose not need your services nor HH services. It is a form of cold war going on here for years now.

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1 minute ago, Chaotic Muslem said:

If a Muslim kissed the black stone and "handshake it" it isn't a shirk. But if you believed that Martian stone is blessed then that's a shirk.

Kissing a stone isn't shirk whether you believe it is blessed or not. It only becomes shirk if you believe that it has special powers to protect you.

What is your evidence that Allah has commanded us to call on Sayyida Fatima (a) for help?

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