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In the Name of God بسم الله

So I guess I'm a Wahhabi...

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2 minutes ago, Tawheed313 said:

When we all say YA ALI (AS) MADAD, this does not proclaim the belief of any Muslim that Allah (SWT) has retired (Astagh Firullah) or that Allah (SWT) has become old (Al Ayaazo Billah) or that someone has deprived Allah (SWT) from him His jurisdictions through elections or an army revolution (Astagh Firullah) or that someone has cheated Allah (SWT) (Astagh Firullah) or that someone has deceived Allah (SWT) and snatched from Him His jurisdictions (Al Ayaazo Billah). The essence of Allah (SWT) and any of His attributes to have any kind of alteration in this belief is equal and parallel to Kufr (disbelief).

Lol. That's an impressive bunch of strawmen.

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Salam, 

To keep it simple or better said as it is.

The Quran motivates us to seek help and to worship Allah alone. Not in just one verse but many times. 

La ilaha il Allah, wahdahu la sharika lah

Nuff said, I'm out.

Edited by Skanderbeg
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Salam

Imams taught things to everyone level of faith. I don't mind being called a disbeliever or ghulat or mushrik, it doesn't matter to me.

I know I worship Allah [swt] alone.

There is Du'as where Imams taught to ask Allah for help of Mohammad and Ali from Allah. There is other words of Ahlulbayt in which they taught us to seek help from Ahlulbayt directly.

Here is a discussion about the "help of Fatima" in the Namaz of Fatima. Also regarding the weakening of the one of the narrators as ghulat, read on later how we have muwathaq hadiths about it's his trustworthiness from Imams: 

 

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We know a lot of Wahabis also go so far to even say, we shouldn't ask by "the right of Mohammad" either, because by the right of Allah is more worthy and we should ask by Allah's Names. Why should we ask by other then Allah, who is more worthy?

To people when they say the by truth of Mohammad, they mean by the glorification of Mohammad to Allah, which is the best of glorifications to God and the path he instilled, and the revelation revealed to his heart.

The Quran emphasizes on intercession, the guiding roles of Imams, and the power they have in many verses, as well as their witnessing people.  The hadiths fill in the details of that and the extent we are allowed.

That said those who want to wait for the help of Ahlulbayt and their intercession on the day of judgement can do so. No one is stopping them. They don't want to have relationship with Ahlulbayt, that is fine.

Keep it between you and Allah. 

At the end, people will know who were the means to Allah and how. Why Allah [swt] emphasize on the power of his chosen ones and those given knowledge from his book.

It's not just to make us look at and say, o his chosen friends are so cool, they are like super heroes....it's about guidance. It's about showing us the path and the way.

He revealed their rank so we know how to come to obey them, ask them when we don't know, and be assisted on the path by helpers appointed by God and Masters to follow and be guided by.

 

 

 

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Salam, 

I believe we only can ask God for the help of somebody else as Musa a.s. asked God for appointing Harun a.s. to help him a.s. 

God contacted Musa a.s. first so Musa was higher in rank. 

Still he a.s. asked God for the support of Harun a.s. 

I think these are some very remarkable verses in the discussion about intercession.

Surah Taha, verse 29-32

Quote

And appoint for me a minister from my family -
Aaron, my brother.
Increase through him my strength
And let him share my task

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7 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

We know a lot of Wahabis also go so far to even say, we shouldn't ask by "the right of Mohammad" either, because by the right of Allah is more worthy and we should ask by Allah's Names. Why should we ask by other then Allah, who is more worthy?

To people when they say the by truth of Mohammad, they mean by the glorification of Mohammad to Allah, which is the best of glorifications to God and the path he instilled, and the revelation revealed to his heart.

The Quran emphasizes on intercession, the guiding roles of Imams, and the power they have in many verses, as well as their witnessing people.  The hadiths fill in the details of that and the extent we are allowed.

That said those who want to wait for the help of Ahlulbayt and their intercession on the day of judgement can do so. No one is stopping them. They don't want to have relationship with Ahlulbayt, that is fine.

Keep it between you and Allah. 

At the end, people will know who were the means to Allah and how. Why Allah [swt] emphasize on the power of his chosen ones and those given knowledge from his book.

It's not just to make us look at and say, o his chosen friends are so cool, they are like super heroes....it's about guidance. It's about showing us the path and the way.

He revealed their rank so we know how to come to obey them, ask them when we don't know, and be assisted on the path by helpers appointed by God and Masters to follow and be guided by.

 

 

 

Salam, 

If there are proofs from Quran it's okay for me.

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1 minute ago, Skanderbeg said:

Salam, 

If there are proofs from Quran it's okay for me.

Salam

The Quran is written in a way that teases us to think. None of it is decisively written in an undisputed way. For example, the teachings of Tawheed. How did Allah prove Tawheed. There is in fact VERY FEW people who understand that. That is why Quran says "and none remember but those who possess understanding".  

Musa asked for Harun because he realized his words couldn't convey as good as Harun, Harun was better at conveying and speech then him.

Allah [swt] likes made Ali the door to the city of knowledge even during the life time of Mohammad [saw] and Mohammad's heart was expanded through Allah's Name by Allah in the same Musa's heart was expanded. What is meant by that was in fact was through Ali. 

The companions of Mohammad and Ali were taught the Quran, through a different knowledge all together. A lost knowledge in this day and age. People don't understand the Quran like they did.

They were guided by the Imammate of Mohammad and at times even got glimpse of Ali's Noor as well, as hadiths show of the meaning of the tranquility they got and the water from the sky, the sky was Mohammad and Ali was the water.

We don't even take our time to understand the hadiths of Ahlulbayt [as] regarding these matters.

There is many verses, and if we read the tafsir of Ahlulbayt, and look at the Quran holistically, we will understand. 

For example Allah [swt] didn't say everyone's Guide is the light they have inside of them. Never once. We know that light is not sufficient as a guide. Have you seen what our hadiths have said about verses about light. I have to make a blog on this. And in fact if you combine verses together, you will realize the interpretation of those hadiths is the correct one or otherwise, we would not need Nubuwa or Wilayah or Imammate. We can all be guided with the light within us. 

 

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27 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

There is Du'as where Imams taught to ask Allah for help of Mohammad and Ali from Allah. There is other words of Ahlulbayt in which they taught us to seek help from Ahlulbayt directly.

Here is a discussion about the "help of Fatima" in the Namaz of Fatima. Also regarding the weakening of the one of the narrators as ghulat, read on later how we have muwathaq hadiths about it's his trustworthiness from Imams: 

The Ahl al-Bayt, 'alaihim al-salam, NEVER taught Shirk. All du'a must be directed to Allah Alone. Du'a is a form of worship, and making du'a to anyone other than Allah is blatant Shirk.

The Ahl al-Bayt themselves cannot help themselves or anyone else. All help comes from Allah Alone.

Edited by أبو فاطمة المحمدي
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1 minute ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

It's not shirk to seek direct help from Shiachat people for guidance but it's shirk to seek guidance from Ahlulbayt directly? Is this what they taught?

There is difference between seeking help and making du'a - and you certainly know what I am saying. When you ask ShiaChat members about the authenticity or source of a particular hadith, is that the kind of request you make to Allah in your du'as? By contrast, if you have a tough exam, would you call upon ShiaChat members to make you pass?

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1 hour ago, Haydar Husayn said:

 

Of course, it would be much better to have videos with more unbiased presentation, but unfortunately only the Wahhabis take the time to make them, as apparently no Shias think this stuff is worth exposing.

Muslim sects learned to expose mistakes of each others and that makes enemies of Islam easy hand on all sects, they need not to research. All they need is to promote the workouts already created by each sects for others.

we are enemy of our self.

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Salam, 

Christians often use the saying that you need the Spirit to understand the Bible.

I believe that this creates a problem as the din becomes a subjective thing instead of objective and if that is the case a hierarchy will appear where blind following is the norm. 

I believe the Quran should be the judge between the muslims. It is revealed in clear Arabic which means that it is clear and plain.

There is ofcourse an apparent meaning and a hidden meaning but there are basic fundamentals which we can never leave and can never change.

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5 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

There is difference between seeking help and making du'a - and you certainly know what I am saying. When you ask ShiaChat members about the authenticity or source of a particular hadith, is that the kind of request you make to Allah in your du'as? By contrast, if you have a tough exam, would you call upon ShiaChat members to make you pass?

Du'a is when you worship a being and ask them in the spirit of worship. If I ask Shia members to pray for me, am I doing Du'a to Shiachat members? No. Yet if we ask Ahlulbayt to do Du'a for us, automatically it's Du'a to Ahlulbayt? I see double standards. 

Also the help of Ahlulbayt is not the type in which they decide the matter for you, Allah [swt] decides. Rather it's seeking their help to the capacity they been allowed to help through the power they been given. That is not to say they been allowed to reckon us. That is to say, they are allowed to help by the permission of Allah.

 

 

 

 

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight
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2 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Du'a is when you worship a being and ask them in the spirit of worship. If I ask Shia members to pray for me, am I doing Du'a to Shiachat members? No. Yet if we ask Ahlulbayt to do Du'a for us, automatically it's Du'a to Ahlulbayt? I see double standards. 

 

 

Have you watched the video? He isn't talking about 'asking someone to do dua for them', he is talking about asking them directly.

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2 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Du'a is when you worship a being and ask them in the spirit of worship. If I ask Shia members to pray for me, am I doing Du'a to Shiachat members? No. Yet if we ask Ahlulbayt to do Du'a for us, automatically it's Du'a to Ahlulbayt? I see double standards. 

Again, I am sure you know perfectly the difference between du'a and asking for help. This is because you practise that difference most of the time. Let me ask you this. If you want long life, would you come to ShiaChat and ask its members to grant you long life? By contrast, if you need to find out about the chain of a hadith, would you supplicate to Allah to do the takhrij for you? These are very simple and straightforward matters, for Allah's sake!

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Salam, 

Brother I do have a christian background and in the case of intercession I notice things that were the same in christianity. It were actually the points that made the diffirence between Islam and christianity. 

I am afraid to ask any other than Allah.

As I always tell christians that I prefer to pray and seek help from Him who Jesus a.s. asked help from, I will seek help from Him who the Ahl al-Bayt a.s. prays to and seek help from.

Edited by Skanderbeg
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1 minute ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Have you watched the video? He isn't talking about 'asking someone to do dua for them', he is talking about asking them directly.

 

1 minute ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Again, I am sure you know perfectly the difference between du'a and asking for help. This is because you practise that difference most of the time. Let me ask you this. If you want long life, would you come to ShiaChat and ask its members to grant you long life? By contrast, if you need to find out about the chain of a hadith, would you supplicate to Allah to do the takhrij for you? These are very simple and straightforward matters, for Allah's sake!

This is what I'm saying. The type we ask of help from Ahlulbayt is not the type we ask from Allah [swt]. It's about their Imammate and Guiding role, as well, as their spiritual help if we allow our souls to receive that help and embrace that help. 

There is a type ofcourse that only Allah can help, like granting blessings to oru souls, then there is another type in which they attempt to lend us a helping hand and show the way.

I don't see why we can't ask Ahlulbayt for roles they been designated to have.

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1 minute ago, simple-muslim said:

Salaam, so I'm sunni. Am I to understand that this is not the normative belief of the 12er shia?

I'm not sure how to answer that. I wish I could, but I don't know how.

The best answer I can give is that it's not a requirement to be Shia, or something that naturally flows from Shia beliefs. You won't find such statements in the works of classical Shia scholars (although there have always been extremist tendencies among the Shia), but these are beliefs that are fairly widespread, especially in Muslim countries. It's probably less so in the West, which is why you will find many Shias who would flat-out deny that such beliefs even exist among mainstream scholars.

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9 minutes ago, Skanderbeg said:

Salam, 

Brother I do have a christian background and in the case of intercession I notice things that were the same in christianity. It were actually the points that made the diffirence between Islam and christianity. 

I am afraid to ask any other than Allah.

As I always tell christians that I prefer to pray and seek help from Him who Jesus a.s. asked help from, I will seek help from Him who the Ahl al-Bayt a.s. prays to and seek help from.

Yeah, this is the irony. Most Christians who convert to Islam mention that they like the direct connection with God that Islam provides (apart from some Catholics who liked the whole 'saint-worship' aspect of their faith). Meanwhile, you have Shias who want to run away from that part of Islam, and will claim that we are't worthy of asking anything of Allah.

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Salam, 

I believe that Twelver Islam preserved a fundamental belief of Islam and that without that belief someone is missing a part of Islam BUT that it is also balancing between Ghuluw and Common sense which depends on the individual follower, his region and the way he gathers knowledge.

So while it puts the Ahl al-Bayt a.s. in its right place the satan uses that to try the concept of Ghuluw.

But to condemn ghuluw it doesn't mean I condemn the Ahl al-Bayt a.s. and their divine position as guides in Islam.

I'm still not a Wahhabi! :clap:

Edited by Skanderbeg
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:salam:

 

I think this belief is more deeply rooted than we suspect. Imamzadeh in Iran for example helped develop this belief that we Muslims can adress others than Allah (swt) for our needs. An Iranian brother whom I met in Shiraz and who showed the best akhlaq and praised Allah in each of his steps and moves told me I could ask anything from Shah Sheragh because he heard all our needs.

Just popular belief I guess, but this becomes a real problem when preached from the pulpit.

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5 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

I'm not sure how to answer that. I wish I could, but I don't know how.

The best answer I can give is that it's not a requirement to be Shia, or something that naturally flows from Shia beliefs. You won't find such statements in the works of classical Shia scholars (although there have always been extremist tendencies among the Shia), but these are beliefs that are fairly widespread, especially in Muslim countries. It's probably less so in the West, which is why you will find many Shias who would flat-out deny that such beliefs even exist among mainstream scholars.

Really best answer I found on this thread. Most of us may have had some studies in shia Islam and we know much about Islam yet there are some points we are not sure about. best approach is what you made here brother. Not to deny what ever we could not find corresponding to our knowledge. Let's consider possibility for things that great scholars who for sure have had vast studies over Islamic stuff verified, however we are not forced to practice it as you said they are not that of requirements to be a Shia.

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2 minutes ago, mahdi servant.01 said:

Really best answer I found on this thread. Most of us may have had some studies in shia Islam and we know much about Islam yet there are some points we are not sure about. best approach is what you made here brother. Not to deny what ever we could not find corresponding to our knowledge. Let's consider possibility for things that great scholars who for sure have had vast studies over Islamic stuff verified, however we are not forced to practice it as you said they are not that of requirements to be a Shia.

Unfortunately, that's not quite what I meant, since I outright reject any possibility that this stuff could be correct. As far as I am concerned, this comes firmly under `aqeedah, and there is no taqleed in this matter. I don't even know how someone could believe what's in the Qur'an, and not be absolutely disgusted by the statements in that video. To even consider that these views might be correct, just because they are put forward by 'scholars' shows the whole problem with elevating scholars to such a degree. You may not wish to practice this stuff, but how many other people will do it because they hear these kinds of speeches? These people are calling towards shirk, plain and simple, and need to be rejected.

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5 minutes ago, sunnilove2hussain said:

This video makes me so angry about this preachers sick mindset,OMA! Save him and the ignorant followers of his from Clear 100% shirk. Ya Allah (swt) teach them tawassul and show them the line between tawassul and shirk.

Salam, 

These kind of trends are also existing in certain Sufi tariqa's. 

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14 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

This is from al-Khisal of Shaykh al-Saduq (ra):

حدثنا محمد بن الحسن بن أحمد بن الوليد رضي الله عنه قال: حدثنا محمد بن الحسن الصفار، عن الحسن بن موسى الخشاب، عن يزيد بن إسحاق شعر، عن عباس بن يزيد، عن أبي عبد الله عليه  السلام قال ... لا يكون العبد مشركا حتى يصلي لغير الله، أو يذبح لغير الله، أو يدعو لغير الله عز وجل.

Narrated 'Abbas b. Yazid:

Abu 'Abd Allah, peace be upon him, said: "The slave does not become a polytheist until he performs salat to other than Allah, or slaughters in dedication to other than Allah, or makes du'a to other than Allah, the Almighty, the Most Glorious."

 

 

Salam, 

Beside the Quran this the best I read today.

Jazak Allahu khayran.

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قُل لَّا أَمْلِكُ لِنَفْسِي ضَرًّا وَلَا نَفْعًا إِلَّا مَا شَاءَ اللَّهُ لِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ أَجَلٌ إِذَا جَاءَ أَجَلُهُمْ فَلَا يَسْتَأْخِرُونَ سَاعَةً وَلَا يَسْتَقْدِمُونَ

Say, ‘I have no control over any benefit for myself nor [over] any harm except what Allah may wish. There is a time for every nation: when their time comes, they shall not defer it by a single hour nor shall they advance it.’

Qur'an 10:49

قُل لَّا أَمْلِكُ لِنَفْسِي نَفْعًا وَلَا ضَرًّا إِلَّا مَا شَاءَ اللَّهُ وَلَوْ كُنتُ أَعْلَمُ الْغَيْبَ لَاسْتَكْثَرْتُ مِنَ الْخَيْرِ وَمَا مَسَّنِيَ السُّوءُ إِنْ أَنَا إِلَّا نَذِيرٌ وَبَشِيرٌ لِّقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُونَ

Say, ‘I have no control over any benefit for myself nor [over] any harm except what Allah may wish. Had I known the Unseen, I would have acquired much good, and no ill would have befallen me. I am only a warner and a bearer of good news to a people who have faith.’

Qur'an 7:188

 

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1 minute ago, sidnaq said:

@Haydar Husayn, salam, i hope you dont mind me asking, i didnt watch the video because i am afraid of if my faith weakens, but have you turned wahhabi? of was that sarcasm

It's sarcasm, in response to something said at the end of the video. I doubt the video will weaken your faith by the way, unless your faith in based on scholars. There is nothing in it that should weaken your faith in Islam or Shi'ism.

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15 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:
2 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Unfortunately, that's not quite what I meant, since I outright reject any possibility that this stuff could be correct. As far as I am concerned, this comes firmly under `aqeedah, and there is no taqleed in this matter. I don't even know how someone could believe what's in the Qur'an, and not be absolutely disgusted by the statements in that video. To even consider that these views might be correct, just because they are put forward by 'scholars' shows the whole problem with elevating scholars to such a degree. You may not wish to practice this stuff, but how many other people will do it because they hear these kinds of speeches? These people are calling towards shirk, plain and simple, and need to be rejected.

 

I have problem with the player so I could not watch the video, but what I said is in general. Indeed not every one who studies in Hawza for a while and goes up the menbar should consider to be the great scholar. By scholar I mean those who devoted their life studying the school of thought of Ahlu-bayt and alongside studying they were a good doers. what I meant is to reject Islamic practices mentioned by such scholars yet beyond our understanding.

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19 minutes ago, Skanderbeg said:

Salam, 

I believe that Twelver Islam preserved a fundamental belief of Islam and that without that belief someone is missing a part of Islam BUT that it is also balancing between Ghuluw and Common sense which depends on the individual follower, his region and the way he gathers knowledge.

So while it puts the Ahl al-Bayt a.s. in its right place the satan uses that to try the concept of Ghuluw.

But to condemn ghuluw it doesn't mean I condemn the Ahl al-Bayt a.s. and their divine position as guides in Islam.

I'm still not a Wahhabi! :clap:

Salam

These things are sensitive. Some people like Sunnis accept hadithal thaqalain means Ahlulbayt are guides to the umma, but then take it to mean follow the fallible scholars from them as opposed to Chosen ones.

Some people want to make following Ahlulbayt as chosen Imams, but today to be following their example as passed on by hadiths and history only.

Some people believe in something else all together. That hadiths are prone to fabrications, that Quran has many faces, and that ilmel rijaal is not an concrete science, and we are in need of guidance from ALIVE Ahlulbayt, mainly that of Imam Mahdi.

And then out of the latter, there two type of hadiths that have been attributed to Ahlulbayt (as), one that asks Allah to help us by obedient spirits or asks us to be guided by Imam Mahdi on the right path and eventually see his light without night in it and that through him we seek nothing but God's face. 

There are others however that while we ask Allah, we ask Ahlulbayt as well.

Then there are others where we just Ahlulbayt. 

These are what the traditions have handed to us.

I am not aware of any hadith that says do not talk to us while we are absent or it is shirk. Or don't ask of us anything while we are dead or it's shirk. You would think they would of warned us.

At the end, I am leaning towards that these hadiths are not fabrications, but pointing to us to something. 

I maybe be wrong. I've been going through pyschosis these past two weeks and every time I do, it seems that this issue I take a different angle to it.

I hope Allah guides me to the truth of this issue.

From what I've seen both sides don't present the issue with clarity. And we need to reach a better conclusion through a thorough deep understanding.

 

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