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In the Name of God بسم الله
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Haydar Husayn

So I guess I'm a Wahhabi...

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O Allah, we collectively pray and BEG you to hasten the reappearance of Imam Mahdi a.s. There are shia's who are claiming things your deputies , the Imams a.s never onced even UTTERED from their mouths.

1. I have done research on this, thanks to Brother Haydar's thread. There is not a single mention by ANY of our imams a.s about Hazrat Abbas a.s being 'babul hawaij' and having this elavated role of 'answering all wishes'. How DARE ANYBODY invent a thing out imams a.s had NEVER even attributed or spoke ?

2. Hazrat Abbas a.s was hardly infallible himself. The whole 'ask imams a.s because they are infallibles' is thrown out of the window.

My brothers and sisters, you can not sit here and remain silent. Question these speakers. Let them preach their preaching but let them tell the crowd, THIS IS NOT A THING EVER MENTIONED BY OUR IMAMS A.S

Let the people be informed.

 

I bear witness that to the best evidence that has so far reached me, it is a fabrication that hazrat Abbas a.s has an elavated role of tawassul that makes him 'babul hawaij'. There is no proof ANY of our imams a.s advocated it. Even Abbas a.s himself may not even be aware of this.

 

 

 

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O shia brothers and sisters. Bring to me even one authentic or non-authentic narration from our imams a.s which refer to hazrat Abbas a.s as the door to all wishes and granted a posiiton not even our imams a.s have in tawassul.

If you can not do that, fear Allah and fear ascribing innovated things to his slaves of which we have no evidence.

 

 

 

 

 

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Whenever this joke of a channel posts a vid, it always includes questionable scholars like this one.

Anyhow, I'd like to see his reasoning and justification for what he said. If it doesn't have an any Islamic foundation, or any grounding in hadith literature (as bro Tawheed said), then aren't they just lying? Can someone explain?

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3 minutes ago, Tawheed313 said:

O shia brothers and sisters. Bring to me even one authentic or non-authentic narration from our imams a.s which refer to hazrat Abbas a.s as the door to all wishes and granted a posiiton not even our imams a.s have in tawassul.

If you can not do that, fear Allah and fear ascribing innovated things to his slaves of which we have no evidence.

Exactly. I don't think there even is a non-authentic hadith in existence on this matter.

People elevate Abbas way too much while other pious Hashimites such as Zayd and Ibn Abbas are always forgotten. This is not Imami Shiaism. Not in the slightest.

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2 minutes ago, Vestige said:

Whenever this joke of a channel posts a vid, it always includes questionable scholars like this one.

Anyhow, I'd like to see his reasoning and justification for what he said. If it doesn't have an any Islamic foundation, or any grounding in hadith literature (as bro Tawheed said), then aren't they just lying? Can someone explain?

Brother Vestige,

It goes like this:

1. Hazrat Abbas a.s apparently has powers of intercession even some of our imams a.s do not have, and is considered a door that will never refuse.

2. He is referred to and given a special title 'babul hawai'j.

There is not a single hadith from our imams a.s of reasonable authenticity or even any mention at all that refer to him as babul hwa'ij. It is an innovation as far as i am concerned, something made up with no basis in the sunnah.

 

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1 minute ago, Patience101 said:

The video starts off by calling Fatima the 'goddess of Ithna Ashari shias' (nauzubillah) and puts 'majoos' wherever the word 'Ahlul Bayt' comes up.

Do we really need to be propagating their material?

Let's pretend to be adults and focus on the content, not the easy target of the presentation. And to be honest, given what was said in the video, who can blame them?

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3 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Let's pretend to be adults and focus on the content, not the easy target of the presentation. And to be honest, given what was said in the video, who can blame them?

Salam, 

Yes brother, We should be the first to condemn this. As long we don't they have a stick to beat us.

Edited by Skanderbeg

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4 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

It's funny that you are all concentrating on the Baab ul-Hawaij bit. I'm more concerned about praying to Sayyida Fatima (a) ...

Oh God. I missed the last part (i was wondering where fatima a.s came in).

How on earth is this possibly allowed on shia Islam ?

Prostrating and in sujud crying out fatime come to my aid ?

It's even worse than babul hawa'ij.

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Can anyone provide me a single authentic hadith from any of our imams a.s which state the prostrate and cry out 'o my mistress fatima help me' ?

If they do not, and preach such a thing, they are innovators in my eyes.

In Kitab Al Kafi, our imams a.s time and time again were asked for supplications, and time and time again gave methods and formulae's. This was NEVER mentioned.

 

Edited by Tawheed313

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2 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Let's pretend to be adults and focus on the content, not the easy target of the presentation. And to be honest, given what was said in the video, who can blame them?

When they stick (majoos) and (goddess) everywhere and quote out-of-context and misinterpreted Qur'anic verses alongside the video, I think it becomes a problem.

 

BTW, I was just at a Dars earlier this evening where the scholar said that the Imams were not like Allah (which he had to specify for some reason), but they were not like human beings either because they (for example) could see behind themselves without turning around. And to be honest this is probably one of the most moderate views I have heard from the ulema in this area.

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The asking of Fatima is in our hadiths. The Sajda is to Allah but seeking help of Fatima to see Allah in the Sajda I think is the hidden secret.

Those people who don't need help of Ahlulbayt to do a more spiritual ruku or sajda, that's up to them.

Everyone it's up to them what they believe Allah has designed the unseen malakut to be like. To be without helpers, without Guides, without obedient spirits being able to strengthen your own sword of God with their sword of God, it's really up to them. To me there is many hadiths and verses that show the truth of this issue. It's up to people to research it.

It's hard enough to imitate Ahlulbayt and take their help when they try to help you, I wonder how much harder it is then to make through the unseen path without Allah helping through his chosen friends.

Imam Mahdi is the Guide in the journey. Let us all at least acknowledge that much.

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2 minutes ago, Patience101 said:

When they stick (majoos) and (goddess) everywhere and quote out-of-context and misinterpreted Qur'anic verses alongside the video, I think it becomes a problem.

 

BTW, I was just at a Dars earlier this evening where the scholar said that the Imams were not like Allah (which he had to specify for some reason), but they were not like human beings either because they (for example) could see behind themselves without turning around. And to be honest this is probably one of the most moderate views I have heard from the ulema in this area.

So am I to understand that you agree with what was said in the video?

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On 1/17/2016 at 11:57 AM, Haydar Husayn said:

So am I to understand that you agree with what was said in the video?

How are you to understand that? I just called these type of scholars 'idiotic ghuluw'.

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1 minute ago, Patience101 said:

How are you to understand that? I just called these type of scholars 'idiot ghuluw'.

My sincere apologies. I completely missed that bit in your post.

I don't really understand your objection to discussion the video though. Shouldn't such views be exposed?

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1 minute ago, Haydar Husayn said:

My sincere apologies. I completely missed that bit in your post.

I don't really understand your objection to discussion the video though. Shouldn't such views be exposed?

I agree they should be condemned (especially by other ulema), but the problem is that these types of channels are not concerned with 'such views,' but with the entire school of Ahlul Bayt. And in today's interconnected age, it only take a click to access all their other bigoted and insulting videos.

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19 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Let's pretend to be adults and focus on the content, not the easy target of the presentation. And to be honest, given what was said in the video, who can blame them?

Salam, 

Yes brother, We should be the first to condemn this. 

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1 minute ago, Patience101 said:

I agree they should be condemned (especially by other ulema), but the problem is that these types of channels are not concerned with 'such views,' but with the entire school of Ahlul Bayt. And in today's interconnected age, it only take a click to access all their other bigoted and insulting videos.

Sure, but because of the exaggerated way in which they attack Shi'ism, and the other stupid arguments they use, I actually think it would undermine their credibility among most people.

Of course, it would be much better to have videos with more unbiased presentation, but unfortunately only the Wahhabis take the time to make them, as apparently no Shias think this stuff is worth exposing.

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2 minutes ago, Patience101 said:

I agree they should be condemned (especially by other ulema), but the problem is that these types of channels are not concerned with 'such views,' but with the entire school of Ahlul Bayt. And in today's interconnected age, it only take a click to access all their other bigoted and insulting videos.

It's indeed not neutral but very suggestive with all those remarks in text added to it. Just let the video speak for itself instead of making a childish mockery of it. 

Their intention isn't pure but however we should condemn it.

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1 minute ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Sure, but because of the exaggerated way in which they attack Shi'ism, and the other stupid arguments they use, I actually think it would undermine their credibility among most people.

Of course, it would be much better to have videos with more unbiased presentation, but unfortunately only the Wahhabis take the time to make them, as apparently no Shias think this stuff is worth exposing.

Do you feel such practises are the consensus among shia scholars?

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Shias believe the first three caliphs, Aisha and some other Sahabis were the worst people in existence. They go as far as saying they were not Muslims as I saw in that other thread. And for what reason? Because these people supposedly defamed the ahlulbayt.

Now I ask, in what way is what these people are doing any better than what they did? In my opinion it is worse. A hundred times worse. You see the names of the ahlulbayt associated with Shirk and the Majous thanks to people like these. If you want to call anyone non-Muslim then start with them. If you want to curse anyone, then curse them. If you want to tell of misguidance and injustice then tell of their misguidance and injustice towards the ahlulbayt first and foremost. For they are a threat not only to the dignity of the ahlulbayt, but also to the very core of shiaism which is their love and obedience. They want to uproot Shia Islam. They are and existential threat to Islam.

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1 minute ago, Tawheed313 said:

Do you feel such practises are the consensus among shia scholars?

It's hard to know for sure. What I'm sure of is that there is a consensus on being accommodating of such views. How many Shia scholars would ever come out and denounce this sort of thing? So whatever views some may have in private, their public silence is pretty damning.

And of course, many do hold these views, and just water down what they say in public out of a form of taqiyyah (especially in the West).

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17 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

The asking of Fatima is in our hadiths. The Sajda is to Allah but seeking help of Fatima to see Allah in the Sajda I think is the hidden secret.

Those people who don't need help of Ahlulbayt to do a more spiritual ruku or sajda, that's up to them.

Everyone it's up to them what they believe Allah has designed the unseen malakut to be like. To be without helpers, without Guides, without obedient spirits being able to strengthen your own sword of God with their sword of God, it's really up to them. To me there is many hadiths and verses that show the truth of this issue. It's up to people to research it.

It's hard enough to imitate Ahlulbayt and take their help when they try to help you, I wonder how much harder it is then to make through the unseen path without Allah helping through his chosen friends.

Imam Mahdi is the Guide in the journey. Let us all at least acknowledge that much.

As a sunni,who has realised the devoutness and the piousness of the holy ahlul bayt (as) [Allahumma salli aala muhammad wa aali muhhamad] i can with some confidence say "Ahlul bayt wouldnt have said such a thing" if so bring me a hadith from al kafi or any other graded sahih by allama majilisi or anyother. JazakAllah khair

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5 minutes ago, Skanderbeg said:

It's indeed not neutral but very suggestive with all those remarks in text added to it. Just let the video speak for itself instead of making a childish mockery of it. 

Their intention isn't pure but however we should condemn it.

It's one of their milder videos to be honest, which is why I posted it. There are many others that are worthy of discussion, and that contain some very incriminating clips, but due to the presentation, I don't want to post them here.

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5 minutes ago, Abu Nasr said:

Shias believe the first three caliphs, Aisha and some other Sahabis were the worst people in existence. They go as far as saying they were not Muslims as I saw in that other thread. And for what reason? Because these people supposedly defamed the ahlulbayt.

Now I ask, in what way is what these people are doing any better than what they did? In my opinion it is worse. A hundred times worse. You see the names of the ahlulbayt associated with Shirk and the Majous thanks to people like these. If you want to call anyone non-Muslim then start with them. If you want to curse anyone, then curse them. If you want to tell of misguidance and injustice then tell of their misguidance and injustice towards the ahlulbayt first and foremost. For they are a threat not only to the dignity of the ahlulbayt, but also to the very core of shiaism which is their love and obedience. They want to uproot Shia Islam. They are and existential threat to Islam.

Proud of you my brother.

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3 minutes ago, Abu Nasr said:

Shias believe the first three caliphs, Aisha and some other Sahabis were the worst people in existence. They go as far as saying they were not Muslims as I saw in that other thread. And for what reason? Because these people supposedly defamed the ahlulbayt.

Now I ask, in what way is what these people are doing any better than what they did? In my opinion it is worse. A hundred times worse. You see the names of the ahlulbayt associated with Shirk and the Majous thanks to people like these. If you want to call anyone non-Muslim then start with them. If you want to curse anyone, then curse them. If you want to tell of misguidance and injustice then tell of their misguidance and injustice towards the ahlulbayt first and foremost. For they are a threat not only to the dignity of the ahlulbayt, but also to the very core of shiaism which is their love and obedience. They want to uproot Shia Islam. They are and existential threat to Islam.

But to be frank I don't think people with these misguided beliefs are either uncommon or driven by a desire to consciously destroy Shia Islam. These types of beliefs are very strongly embedded among some parts of our communities- especially among the poor and illiterate Shia in third world countries (and those raised by them).  

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10 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

It's hard to know for sure. What I'm sure of is that there is a consensus on being accommodating of such views. How many Shia scholars would ever come out and denounce this sort of thing? So whatever views some may have in private, their public silence is pretty damning.

And of course, many do hold these views, and just water down what they say in public out of a form of taqiyyah (especially in the West).

I agree somewhat. But i'll email 6 marja's with the question. I'll post my replies here.

 

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1 minute ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Good luck, but be prepared for no straight answers to be given.

I am aware of that.

Example:

Question: What is the meaning of "Ya Ali Madad"?

Bismahe Subhana

The Meaning of YA ALI (AS) MADAD

A few things should be made clear upon you:

1. Allah (SWT) has bestowed the highest status upon: the Holy Prophet of Islam, all other Prophets (Peace Be Upon Them), Imam Ali (AS), and the rest of the infallibles (AS). Allah (SWT) has bestowed upon them the highest jurisdictions and in this there is no doubt amongst any of the Shia and there should not be any doubt. The details of these jurisdictions and explanations of the fixing of the boundaries are above the intellectual understanding of any normal person. However, the infallibles (AS) in some of the traditions have indicated towards this meaning, so in the truth of the Ahlul Bait (AS), we should not get entangled in disbelief or claims of deficiency and defectiveness of the Ahlul Bait (AS), and neither in the greatness (nature, power) of Allah (SWT) Almighty. We should not unnecessarily transgress and pass the prescribed limits.

2. Those personalities (entities) which we have mentioned above are the selected people of Allah (SWT). That honor which they have obtained has only been obtained with the devotion of Allah (SWT).

3. Allah (SWT) has kept some of the jurisdictions in His hand and has not consigned these to anybody else other than Himself. In this, there is life and death, creation and demission, and rizq.

4. If somebody himself says that those things which have been mentioned before are not in the hands of Allah (SWT), then he implies that we have retired Allah (SWT) Almighty (Astagh Firullah). One should remember that the creator of these personalities (entities) is only Him. The creator of the master of the universe Imam Ali (AS) and the creator of the milk in the chest of his blessed and purified mother was only Allah (SWT) Almighty. May it be known that Allah (SWT) has never retired nor shall He ever retire!

5.  Allah (SWT) has ordered us that we seek our needs from the aforementioned entities, that we ask for our needs from Him, and that we give for the sake of those infallibles. When we all say YA ALI (AS) MADAD, this does not proclaim the belief of any Muslim that Allah (SWT) has retired (Astagh Firullah) or that Allah (SWT) has become old (Al Ayaazo Billah) or that someone has deprived Allah (SWT) from him His jurisdictions through elections or an army revolution (Astagh Firullah) or that someone has cheated Allah (SWT) (Astagh Firullah) or that someone has deceived Allah (SWT) and snatched from Him His jurisdictions (Al Ayaazo Billah). The essence of Allah (SWT) and any of His attributes to have any kind of alteration in this belief is equal and parallel to Kufr (disbelief). We give for the sake of the infallibles and ask for Dua (prayers); this is the meaning of YA ALI (AS) MADAD. When you ask for help from anybody, you hope that he helps and supports you in accordance to one’s own power. Allah (SWT) Almighty has given the Prophet of Allah (SWT), Janab-e-Zahra (SA), and all of the infallibles the power of victory to support His Shia. This power is in their intercession, in which they do dua (prayer) for all of their Shia and they ask forgiveness for them and they fulfill the requirement from Allah (SWT). This is the meaning of YA ALI (AS) MADAD.

 

 

 

http://www.alnajafi.org/questions-and-answers/41-aqeedah/55-question-on-ya-ali-madad.html

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