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Too much or too little?

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49 minutes ago, notme said:

In many if not most cases, sexual assault and rape have little to do with sex and everything to do with power. If a bully gets away with it, he's going to continue and eventually escalate. It doesn't matter what the woman wears. It matters that she fights back and fights as if her life depends on it - because it does. If every woman (and man and child) who is sexually attacked left scars on their attacker, the number of attacks would decline.

 

 

I think this is the part that some folks are trying to get across that some other folks aren't hearing. 

Some people have pathologies. What can a six year old girl do against her molesting father? Dress more modestly?

Edited by LeftCoastMom

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2 hours ago, notme said:

In many if not most cases, sexual assault and rape have little to do with sex and everything to do with power. If a bully gets away with it, he's going to continue and eventually escalate. It doesn't matter what the woman wears. It matters that she fights back and fights as if her life depends on it - because it does. If every woman (and man and child) who is sexually attacked left scars on their attacker, the number of attacks would decline.

 

This is a very good point. I hope more women learn this. 

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18 minutes ago, Maryaam said:

Are you saying that it should?

I am not saying it should, but can the owner really put all the blame on the thief? Was their not some foolishness, naivety, irresponsibility,whatever you want to call it, on his part that led to the his gold being stolen? 

[Edit] and Maryaam what are the chances that it won't get stolen? Remember we don't live in an ideal world where everyone has exemplary ikhlaq and morals. It's not about how the other people 'should' behave, its about how they 'will' behave, in a practical, realistic sense.

Edited by starlight

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15 minutes ago, starlight said:

I am not saying it should, but can the owner really put all the blame on the thief? Was their not some foolishness, naivety, irresponsibility,whatever you want to call it, on his part that led to the his gold being stolen? 

[Edit] and Maryaam what are the chances that it won't get stolen? Remember we don't live in an ideal world where everyone has exemplary ikhlaq and morals. It's not about how the other people 'should' behave, its about how they 'will' behave, in a practical, realistic sense.

I think there are many opportunities to steal or to commit a sin against someone.  That does not mean we blame the victim. We need to blame the perpetrator for lacking the moral strength and character.

How much is it considered the fruit sellers fault if someone steals from their display of delicious fruits and runs away? We don't blame the victim (the fruit seller) we blame the jerk who took advantage of an opportunity to victimize.

We seem to have more of a sense of moral indignation over a thief stealing the fruit than for someone who rapes - which is a violent act with long term impact to the life of the victim.  Within seconds of any discussion of rape, we discuss the victim's assumed moral character, her style and/or colour and/or type of clothing, where she was when attacked and if she should have been there, and how she shares the blame for being hurt. Rarely, is there instant discussion about the perpetrators moral character, where he was and if he should have been there, etc.

Just because you have an opportunity to victimize does not reduce the culpability.  Children are raped, grandmas are raped and niqabis are raped.  It is a crime of violence and opportunity.  The reason women do not come forward as they are put on trial before the perpetrator, and regardless of the circumstances, have a much reduced standing in the community - just based on being a victim.  In the past (maybe even now) rape victims were, in some cultures, killed as they no longer had value and were a source of shame to their families.  We have come a long way to addressing rape and supporting the victims, but we still have a long ways to go.  It is really disheartening to hear educated women make these judgements against them.  It greatly reduces the chance that a woman or child will report the crime against them.  

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2 minutes ago, Maryaam said:

 It is really disheartening to hear educated women make these judgements against them.  It greatly reduces the chance that a woman or child will report the crime against them.  

Perfectly said Maryaam

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38 minutes ago, starlight said:

I am not saying it should, but can the owner really put all the blame on the thief? Was their not some foolishness, naivety, irresponsibility,whatever you want to call it, on his part that led to the his gold being stolen? 

[Edit] and Maryaam what are the chances that it won't get stolen? Remember we don't live in an ideal world where everyone has exemplary ikhlaq and morals. It's not about how the other people 'should' behave, its about how they 'will' behave, in a practical, realistic sense.

I am not talking about how perpetrators will behave, I am talking about the way WE behave towards the victim and towards the validity of the crime.

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On 1/22/2016 at 7:46 AM, Maryaam said:

I am not talking about how perpetrators will behave, I am talking about the way WE behave towards the victim and towards the validity of the crime.

Maryaam, time and again this topic has been steered towards rape. . I will repeat what I have written earlier, rape is a criminal act, there is no justification for it. NO WOMAN DESERVES TO BE RAPED. THE FAULT LIES THE PERSON WHO COMMITTED THIS HEINOUS ACT, he deserves the most severe punishment possible. The unfortunate woman deserves nothing but kindness and support from everyone.

Okay now that we have this covered I will come to the actual topic , the incidents that the OP has mentioned. Me, magma and some other members have pointed out that rape isn't the only situation where the personal space and security of a woman is breached. There is groping, there is cat calling , there are lustful glances. 

Sister, my point is, there are 10% of men out there who have a strong moral character and faith. They will be able to keep their gaze lowered even around bikini clad woman, they will be able to demonstrate self control even if a woman invites them to do haraam acts. Men like these do exist, I am lucky to know a couple of such men. 

Then there are another 10-15%  of men who have no shame, no respect for themselves or for the women. These men will grope women standing even in front of ka'aba or in a church. They will not hesitate in making advances towards burka clad women, they have no morals, no scruples and won't think twice before giving into their haram desires and molesting a woman.

What about the rest of the 70-80%? These are the men, who try to lower their gaze, try to act with modesty and dignity around women, try and practise self control but if the temptation is too great they might end up committing a sin or an immoral act (even a lustful glance is considered a sin) Most of the men we comes across and interact with on a day to day basis belong to this category. Here comes the practical application of the verse of Hijab:

O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters, and believers' wives as well, to draw their veils (abayah) close around themselves. That is more appropriate so they may be recognized and not molested. God is Forgiving, Merciful.(33: 59 )

I think the verse of Hijab has been posted thrice in this thread and ignored everytime as discussion flew off on tangent towards rape....... Allah (swt) tells us that covering up protects women from molestation. Those who argue that a woman's dresses shouldn't affect how Namehram men behave towards her are denying what Allah said in this verse. 

We are only able to blame others if we have fulfilled our responsibility. It 's wrong to expect perfect behaviour from others while not doing our job properly. 

Since you gave the example of the fruit seller, I will end my post with a similar example. Fruit vendors here in my country  put their fruits on display on road stalls. Fruit flies are attracted to the fruits, naturally, and swarm over it. Some of the sensible fruit sellers here who don't want their fruit ruined cover their goods with a thin piece of cloth, most often fine netting. Which fruit seller's fruits would be more protected from the flies?  the ones that are covered or the ones sitting there open, naked ? Are we going to blame the flies for hovering over the fruits? No, it's their nature, that's how Allah has made them. Men are the same when it comes to women, Allah has made women attractive for men, they can't help but swarm over them. (apologies for the analogy , brothers :rolleyes:) Allah has told women to keep themselves covered, yet some will ignore this and go against the principles of islam and the principles of Islam are in fact the principles of nature and then blame men. 

 

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1 hour ago, starlight said:

Since you gave the example of the fruit seller, I will end my post with a similar example. Fruit vendors here in my country  put their fruits on display on road stalls. Fruit flies are attracted to the fruits, naturally, and swarm over it. Some of the sensible fruit sellers here who don't want their fruit ruined cover their goods with a thin piece of cloth, most often fine netting. Which fruit seller's fruits would be more protected from the flies?  the ones that are covered or the ones sitting there open, naked ? Are we going to blame the flies for hovering over the fruits? No, it's their nature, that's how Allah has made them. Men are the same when it comes to women, Allah has made women attractive for men, they can't help but swarm over them. (apologies for the analogy , brothers :rolleyes:) Allah has told women to keep themselves covered, yet some will ignore this and go against the principles of islam and the principles of Islam are in fact the principles of nature and then blame men. 

 

This is a terrible analogy, how can you compare human's to flies? And no it has nothing to do with being offended, it just makes no sense.  Any discussion here has to start with a basic framework of rights and responsibilities, which humans share.  Animals have a completely different set of rights and rightly cannot be held accountable for a whole host of actions, it is a nonstarter. 

 

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^ Animals and other creatures exist to help humans reflect on their own natures. Just like many natural wonders on this Earth are signs to help us understand things. Analogies like these don't become invalid just because humans and flies have different accountabilities. The principle described above holds.

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13 minutes ago, magma said:

Analogies like these don't become invalid just because humans and flies have different accountabilities. The principle described above holds.

They are completely invalid in this context, animals and humans have a very different set of rights and responsibilities, you cannot compare a squirrel that steals a nut off some stall to a human being that does, it is nonsensical. 

Edited by King

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^ Here is the principle made in one sentence, removing all sensitive divisive terms:

Something has an intrusive inclination for some other thing, so that other thing protects itself so that it becomes less intrusive.

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14 minutes ago, magma said:

^ Here is the principle made in one sentence, removing all sensitive divisive terms:

Something has an intrusive inclination for some other thing, so that other thing protects itself so that it becomes less intrusive.

Yes that has been alluded to a million times over by both sides, in the context of this discussion which revolves around assigning blame and responsibility, the animal analogy doesn't fly.

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2 hours ago, starlight said:

 

Since you gave the example of the fruit seller, I will end my post with a similar example. Fruit vendors here in my country  put their fruits on display on road stalls. Fruit flies are attracted to the fruits, naturally, and swarm over it. Some of the sensible fruit sellers here who don't want their fruit ruined cover their goods with a thin piece of cloth, most often fine netting. Which fruit seller's fruits would be more protected from the flies?  the ones that are covered or the ones sitting there open, naked ? Are we going to blame the flies for hovering over the fruits? No, it's their nature, that's how Allah has made them. Men are the same when it comes to women, Allah has made women attractive for men, they can't help but swarm over them. (apologies for the analogy , brothers :rolleyes:) Allah has told women to keep themselves covered, yet some will ignore this and go against the principles of islam and the principles of Islam are in fact the principles of nature and then blame men. 

 

Comparing women to fruit who need to be hidden to be safe from flies that have no moral compass or direction – just the need to feed – is archaic and bizarre. And what an insult to men to be compared to insects!

 The reason the grope and the rape rate is so high, especially in Desi-land and India is that women have come to understand that they are fruit and that they did not adequately protect themselves from the flies and that they deserve what they get.  Victims consequently do not reveal their shame of being available fruit, do not get needed medical help and this way avoid being further abused by their families and the public.  And attacks continue unabated.  The police even look the other way and in some cases have re-attacked women who have gone to the station to report the crime. Why do you think people think this way? What do you think could be promoting women being seen as perpetrators of their own crime?  And we are not talking exceptions – we are talking general rule.

Where public censure and penalties are in place for sexual harassment and rape, where victimized women are not instantly judged, where the perpetrators are held accountable for their crimes - the flies seem to have not found the fruit as vulnerable  and have the found the new found awesome ability to fly in another direction.

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3 hours ago, starlight said:

We are only able to blame others if we have fulfilled our responsibility. It 's wrong to expect perfect behaviour from others while not doing our job properly. 

So the woman in the burqa is going to be blamed as the wind revealed her ankles?  How far do you go here? The extreme of this is that women are always to blame (at least partially - but usually fully) for a man's inability to control himself or more accurately, society's acceptance to protect him from his crime by pointing the finger at the victim and saying that this person did not do her job of managing his criminal behaviour.  

Totally unbelievable.

Starlight - why do you think the rape and assault rate is so high in that area of the world?  

 

 

Edited by Maryaam

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2 minutes ago, Maryaam said:

So the woman in the burqa is going to be blamed as the wind revealed her ankles?  How far do you go here? The extreme of this is that women are always to blame (at least partially - but usually fully) for a man's inability to control himself or more accurately, society's acceptance to protect him from his crime by pointing the finger at the victim and saying that this person did not do her job of managing his criminal behaviour.  

Totally unbelievable.

 

 

What a way to manipulate words.

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13 minutes ago, The Batman said:

In Shi'i Fiqh, the punishment for a man raping a woman is death.

Only if four people testify to having seen him do it or he confesses but doesn't repent. As far as I know, the usual forensic evidence used in secular courts isn't permissible in Islamic court. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

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1 hour ago, notme said:

Only if four people testify to having seen him do it or he confesses but doesn't repent. As far as I know, the usual forensic evidence used in secular courts isn't permissible in Islamic court. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

For the establishment of the Hadd on the rapist, then yes, four witnesses is needed.

However, I once read a text that if there is sufficient external evidence, then it is possible the rapist can be put to Tazir (discretionary punishment).

 But I am not completely sure.

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I was looking at a study of sexual assault in Sweden and it tuns out that assault rates have gone up with mass immigration, most of which, unfortunately, comes from Muslim countries. In other words, there are more rapists/attackers among migrant community than in native ones relative to their numbers.

Swedish women had been dressing the same before. But men from societies where conservative dress is norm treat women who dress more liberally as fair game. Like a guy I knew used to say, "what of white girls; they would let anyone <do> them." This is reflective of their attitudes towards women who they see as not following their criteria of modesty.

On the other side of the world a woman seen in public in Mardan (semi tribal Pakistan town) with her hair showing would be thought a harlot, even if she is conservatively dressed. And those hijabis who wear jeans, you would attract men like a magnet. Men who would follow you like dogs would be partly excused as responding to "improper" dress. But nothing of this sort in Lahore or Karachi.

I think what happens is that we vent our social disapproval by partly blaming the victim. And sometimes we dont even realise this.

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6 hours ago, Marbles said:

I was looking at a study of sexual assault in Sweden and it tuns out that assault rates have gone up with mass immigration, most of which, unfortunately, comes from Muslim countries. In other words, there are more rapists/attackers among migrant community than in native ones relative to their numbers.

Swedish women had been dressing the same before. But men from societies where conservative dress is norm treat women who dress more liberally as fair game. Like a guy I knew used to say, "what of white girls; they would let anyone <do> them." This is reflective of their attitudes towards women who they see as not following their criteria of modesty.

On the other side of the world a woman seen in public in Mardan (semi tribal Pakistan town) with her hair showing would be thought a harlot, even if she is conservatively dressed. And those hijabis who wear jeans, you would attract men like a magnet. Men who would follow you like dogs would be partly excused as responding to "improper" dress. But nothing of this sort in Lahore or Karachi.

I think what happens is that we vent our social disapproval by partly blaming the victim. And sometimes we dont even realise this.

 

That is a very good example - change in crime rate in a country in a very short period of time.. In 1975, 421 rapes were reported to the police in Sweden annually. By 2014, according to the Gatestone institute, the number of reported rapes had risen to 6,620 - an increase of 1,472% - and the rate has grown every year. That was the second highest in the world — surpassed only by Lesotho in southern Africa. There was no change in dress or manner of the women, just a change in the makeup of the population due to mass immigration.  That is, it was not the change in the victim's behaviour but there was a change in the makeup of the population. Possibly this translated into the cultural expectations of women, an expected lack of accountability for men who commit violent acts against women, and due to cultural stereotyping of white women.. 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Marbles said:

 

Swedish women had been dressing the same before. But men from societies where conservative dress is norm treat women who dress more liberally as fair game. Like a guy I knew used to say, "what of white girls; they would let anyone <do> them." 

Hence the stereotype of the brutal Muslim male being promulgated in conservative media. 

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