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seekingthebeloved

Caliphs & Cursing

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:bismillah:

 

Salaam to all who comes across this topic. 

I have been having discussions with a close Sunni that I know, mainly around the caliphate. My question that I have to put forward is as so..

To my knowledge, within Sunnism when it comes to events like the Battle of Jamal those who according to Shia narrations did wrong, are not deemed as the 'baddies' if you like - Why? Because individuals like Aisha/Umar/Uthman etc are fallible beings and did make mistakes and may well have repented for their crimes that they did. With this view, where does the permissibility within Shiaism come to look down upon and curse such individuals when in reality there is no way WE could 100% prove the actions that went on back then? And so by cursing do we not run the risk of cursing individuals who may have been forgiven since names of the individuals aren't mentioned in the Quran?

 

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22 hours ago, seekingthebeloved said:

:bismillah:

 

Salaam to all who comes across this topic. 

I have been having discussions with a close Sunni that I know, mainly around the caliphate. My question that I have to put forward is as so..

To my knowledge, within Sunnism when it comes to events like the Battle of Jamal those who according to Shia narrations did wrong, are not deemed as the 'baddies' if you like - Why? Because individuals like Aisha/Umar/Uthman etc are fallible beings and did make mistakes and may well have repented for their crimes that they did. With this view, where does the permissibility within Shiaism come to look down upon and curse such individuals when in reality there is no way WE could 100% prove the actions that went on back then? And so by cursing do we not run the risk of cursing individuals who may have been forgiven since names of the individuals aren't mentioned in the Quran?

 

First, let's list all of their 'mistakes' or sins. Then for each of them, let's try to find proof where they repented for their sins.

You will find plenty of poeple in jail who are sorry they got caught but not sorry for their actions. They are even some who are sorry for their actions but still have to bear the full punishment for their actions. simply absolving someone of a crime does not wok in a practical sense.

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On 1/13/2016 at 6:10 PM, seekingthebeloved said:

But how can you possibly find evidence for someone's repentance? 

one way to find out is if they continue to maintain the same principles as before. 

For example, we often hear that Aisha was repentant over fighting ALi at Jamal but then she didnt allow Imam Hasan to be buried next to the Prophet. So her hatred for the family of Ali and Fatima never subsided.

Similary for Muawiya, he continued to be oppose Imam Ali after Siffin proving he was not repentant.

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On 14 January 2016 at 6:08 PM, shiaman14 said:

one way to find out is if they continue to maintain the same principles as before. 

For example, we often hear that Aisha was repentant over fighting ALi at Jamal but then she didnt allow Imam Hasan to be buried next to the Prophet. So her hatred for the family of Ali and Fatima never subsided.

Similary for Muawiya, he continued to be oppose Imam Ali after Siffin proving he was not repentant.

When it comes to analysing and weighing up their behaviour from sources, you have the issue of the sources that are used and where they come from. This is because each source has a context and displays information from a particular bias i.e Shia sources will be pro Shiaism, thus displaying the Sahaba in a negative light whereas Sunni sources will do the opposite. Plus its a tricky thing to weigh someones actions and try to justify them or explain them, especially someone like Aisha ra who is described in the Quran 'The Prophet is more worthy of the believers than themselves, and his wives are [in the position of] their mothers. 33:6'. Therefore it is dangerous to say well she did this which is bad, hence she held hatred in her heart for so and so, and these actions signify she never truly repetend or had any guilt for her alleged crimes. Is it upto us to act as the judge?

Edited by seekingthebeloved
Forgot to add a few bits

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On 1/17/2016 at 1:53 PM, seekingthebeloved said:

When it comes to analysing and weighing up their behaviour from sources, you have the issue of the sources that are used and where they come from. This is because each source has a context and displays information from a particular bias i.e Shia sources will be pro Shiaism, thus displaying the Sahaba in a negative light whereas Sunni sources will do the opposite. Plus its a tricky thing to weigh someones actions and try to justify them or explain them, especially someone like Aisha ra who is described in the Quran 'The Prophet is more worthy of the believers than themselves, and his wives are [in the position of] their mothers. 33:6'. Therefore it is dangerous to say well she did this which is bad, hence she held hatred in her heart for so and so, and these actions signify she never truly repetend or had any guilt for her alleged crimes. Is it upto us to act as the judge?

Did the families of all the sahaba that died in Jamal forgive Hz Aisha? If they all did, then I will too.

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On 1/17/2016 at 11:23 PM, seekingthebeloved said:

When it comes to analysing and weighing up their behaviour from sources, you have the issue of the sources that are used and where they come from. This is because each source has a context and displays information from a particular bias i.e Shia sources will be pro Shiaism, thus displaying the Sahaba in a negative light whereas Sunni sources will do the opposite. Plus its a tricky thing to weigh someones actions and try to justify them or explain them, especially someone like Aisha ra who is described in the Quran 'The Prophet is more worthy of the believers than themselves, and his wives are [in the position of] their mothers. 33:6'. Therefore it is dangerous to say well she did this which is bad, hence she held hatred in her heart for so and so, and these actions signify she never truly repetend or had any guilt for her alleged crimes. Is it upto us to act as the judge?

First, in analyzing their behaviors, it is a personal issue whether one comes to a certain conclusion through the sources or not.

Second, it is not true that Shi'a sources are always pro Shi'ism, because you can find narrations in Shi'a sources that are not in accordance with the Shi'a thought. Similarly, the Sunni sources are not in all cases pro the dominant reading of Sunnism, and in many cases, the Shi'i scholars refer to the Sunni sources to prove their Shi'i viewpoints.

Third, you are right and I agree with you that it's tricky to talk about great people and make judgement about them, and you mentioned one Ayah from the Qur'an to show that A'isha is one of those people, but we should also keep in mind the other verses about the wives of the Prophet s.a.w., such as:

وَ قَرْنَ في‏ بُيُوتِكُنَّ وَ لا تَبَرَّجْنَ تَبَرُّجَ الْجاهِلِيَّةِ الْأُولى‏ وَ أَقِمْنَ الصَّلاةَ وَ آتينَ الزَّكاةَ وَ أَطِعْنَ اللَّهَ وَ رَسُولَه

"Stay in your houses and do not display your finery with the display of the former [days of] ignorance. Maintain the prayer and pay the zakat, and obey Allah and His Apostle..." [al-Ahzaab:33]

In this verse, Allah s.w.t. addresses the Prophet's wives directly ordering them to stay in their houses and to obey Allah and His apostle.

So all relevant verses should be taken into consideration.

Edited by sadegh

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1. the issue is, how to answer this question, posed by a sunni: "God is al-rahman, al-rahim, it is not beyond His Power to forgive x, y, z (x, y, z may include qatilaan-e-Hussain a.s.w,s, may lanat infinite be upon them all), how is one justified in cursing someone who may be in God's grace'?

2: issue is complicated by the psyche of lay sunni muslims, who are taught to venerate them to the point where any criticism, or mention of the misdeeds of these people is enough to enrage and shock them... (which is also a reason some sunnis become shia/khush-aqeeda when they read histories of islam due to the strong shock, kind of like how people wake up from a dream).

3. one answer may be: had they been infallible, what would the merit be of their abstinence from sin, or what possibility would there be of their committing a misdeed? that they were fallible, is the reason why they can be held responsible for their actions, they could have chosen to do otherwise, yet did not. that 1,2,3 were close to the Prophet is not a mitigating circumstance for their crimes, it is what makes their crimes all the more heinous. you will have no trouble illustrating this point, inshaAllah.

Edited by lho

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On 3/11/2016 at 2:07 PM, lho said:

1. the issue is, how to answer this question, posed by a sunni: "God is al-rahman, al-rahim, it is not beyond His Power to forgive x, y, z (x, y, z may include qatilaan-e-Hussain a.s.w,s, may lanat infinite be upon them all), how is one justified in cursing someone who may be in God's grace'?

While Allah is Al-Rehman and Al-Rahim, he is also Adl (Just). As such, while He forgives sins against him (missing salah or sawn or hajj, etc). Allah does not forgive sins against another person. And so we curse the people we curse because of their sins against the Prophet and his progeny.

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On 3/10/2016 at 11:07 AM, lho said:

1. the issue is, how to answer this question, posed by a sunni: "God is al-rahman, al-rahim, it is not beyond His Power to forgive x, y, z (x, y, z may include qatilaan-e-Hussain a.s.w,s, may lanat infinite be upon them all), how is one justified in cursing someone who may be in God's grace'?

2: issue is complicated by the psyche of lay sunni muslims, who are taught to venerate them to the point where any criticism, or mention of the misdeeds of these people is enough to enrage and shock them... (which is also a reason some sunnis become shia/khush-aqeeda when they read histories of islam due to the strong shock, kind of like how people wake up from a dream).

3. one answer may be: had they been infallible, what would the merit be of their abstinence from sin, or what possibility would there be of their committing a misdeed? that they were fallible, is the reason why they can be held responsible for their actions, they could have chosen to do otherwise, yet did not. that 1,2,3 were close to the Prophet is not a mitigating circumstance for their crimes, it is what makes their crimes all the more heinous. you will have no trouble illustrating this point, inshaAllah.

4:17  Repentance with Allah (right to be forgiven by Allah) is only for those who do something evil in ignorance and repent as soon as they realize it; Allah will pardon them. Allah is the Knowledgeable, Wise.

 

LOOOOOOOL so much for forgiveness HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH what will they say?!?! Aysha and sahab didnt hear the Quran when they were there all the time? LOL!

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