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In the Name of God بسم الله

Imam Mahdi a.s is probably mostly black by race

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it is stupid to even discuss this. Islam  is against racism. 

It is of the 12th Imam a.s, and indeed his race does not matter, but it is historically interesting to know. Furthermore, to those who decide to take up the erronous duty of actually drawing our imams

Bismillah. Salaam.   According to Ahādiīh our beloved Prophet (p) said that Mahdi (aj) is like me (Bihār, v.36, p.337-338) and we know that the Prophet (p)'s skin was white inclined to

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S/A

May we all be sacrificed for him (a.s) whatever his race. He is the most superior human being on this earth at this time however he is.

Regardless of that, of all the people that have met with/seen him through time, not one report of him being dark skinned has ever surfaced. And if he were dark skinned, it would certainly have been a feature that at least one person would have noticed (and probably gotten very surprised, not because its good or bad, but simply due to it being so different from the 99% belief) and made very very strong mention about. No report that I've ever seen has said that.

It's kind of like when you order a chicken burger, but when you bite into it, its actually beef: when you're asked how it was, the very first thing you're likely to mention is how it was NOT chicken but beef.

W/S

Madzi

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On 1/10/2016 at 6:38 AM, Tawheed313 said:

The race of the imam a.s is not important, but it is still important to know for educational reasons and to dispel myths.

It is very weak due to its chain of narrators(Credit to Nader Zaveri)

Here is the famous story of the Narjis, mother of Imaam Mahdee (AS) being a Roman princess and being sold into slavery in order to marry our 11th Imaam (AS). Her name is really Narjis, but the LONG story of her being a Roman princess and being sold into slavery is mawDoo’ (Fabricated).

There are some points required to be mentioned: 

1.Historic events are not deduced out of authentication of ahadith; its process is not completely the same as Fiqh. This is not acceptable to verify a historic hadith, see the chain of narrators and then claim the event surely happened or surely didn't happen. It is slightly different.

Many historical events are proved as a result of non-Imami narraters.

For example: Look! The story of Karballa, -Except for some general meanings narrated by Imam Sajad and Lady Zeinab and some others- in the vast majority of situations are retold by those who were present in the battle; and surely they weren't Imam Hussain's companions but his enemies by the time. Based on their sayings, may we say an event occurred then in Karbalaa?In Muharram Scholars did and do retell us the story based on their narrations and we will mourn and show our sadness.

Also, many historians -like Tabari, Mas'oudi, Ibn Hisham, Ibn Athir, Vaqedi- are not Shia and some of them are not known to be Shiite; and there are inevitable errors in their books; but we have no other choice but to rely on their books except for the time we are sure the information is not true. (There are Shiite Historian but we as Shiite refer to their historian books like Tabari). We are to verify their narrations but according to historical evidences.

2. This is regarded to be another point but it is relevant to the first one.

Whether Imam Mahdi's mother is a Roman princess or not we're not required to do anything. No duty would be proven for us. Probably it is right and probably not. So we don't look for authenticity and even if can't come to a conclusion nothing will happen so we can wait.

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On 2016-01-10 at 3:00 AM, Tawheed313 said:

In the name of Allah the beneficient the merciful,

Salamunalaykum,

Our twelfth Imam a.s's mother was probably a black lady:

Daleel

"From Yazeed al-Kunaasee said, I heard Abaa Ja`far Muhammad bin `Alee al-Baaqir (عليه السلام), he said: “Verily, the master of this affair (i.e. al-Qaa’im) in him is resemblance of Yoosuf (عليه السلام), he is the son of a black bondswoman (female slave), and Allaah (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ) will reform his affair in one night”

 

Source:

 

1.     Al-Nu`maani, Kitaab al-Ghaybah, ch. 13, pg. 228, hadeeth # 8

 

2.     Al-Nu`maani, Kitaab al-Ghaybah, pg. 163, hadeeth # 3

Credit to Brother Nader Zaveri (you must check out his website): http://www.revivingalislam.com/2011/07/mother-of-imam-mahdi.html

There is also another hadith stating the same thing in essence, but with a different chain of narrators found on the link.

The hadith of her being a roman princess is regarded to be fabricated/VERY WEAK: http://www.revivingalislam.com/2010/06/narjis-mother-of-12th-imaam-story-is_20.html

How on earth this extremely weak hadith ever made it onto a pulipit deserves a public enquiry as to why it took an online blogger to point it out to us (a man proficient in rijal).

 

According to Shia-Chat Admin, Brother Q'aim, who runs 'Ahlulbayt Daily' on facebook, has authored several interesting articles on christianity and Islam, and has translated a rich corpus of hadith on immamiyah, states:

"It is generally known that Ja'far as-Sadiq (as), the sixth Imam, was secondarily married to an African slave woman he had freed. The woman later gave birth to the seventh Imam, Musa al-Kadhim (as), making him half African. Al-Kadhim (as) also married an African slave, making his offspring three quarters African."

Source: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234977499-where-any-of-the-12-imams-as-mothers-black/

 

 

Conclusion:

1. Several of our imams a.s married African women

2. Our 11th Imam a.s was most likely already mixed race before marrying a black woman, making the 12th Imam a.s vastly mostly mixed race / black/african. (highly likely)

 

 

May Allah swt hasten his reapperance !

 

 

salamun alikum,

I recommend you that you fear Allah (swt) and that you should focus on how to prepear yourself for the coming of Imam Mahdi (a), and not quarrel about his skin color or his background. For Imam Mahdi (a), this kind of knowledge is useless, what makes sense is if you are a true follower of the truth, or if you are an enemy of Allah (swt).

blessings,

seekingtruth14

 

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^I don't think anyone is underestimating the preparation for the Imam's (aj) arrival; we're just discussing different sources of info concerning his mother-- Narjes (as)'s--origin. Since we do have sources that pertain to this matter, then it's natural that we would want to take a look and study them :)

 

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:bismillah:

Salam everyone,

I do agree that we should study every aspect of Imam's (aAfs) life, including his lineage, as he is one of the most important parts of our creed, but I have read this thread from the beginning till the end and found it more and more incredible the more I read.

The actual question about Narjis Khatoon and the fact that she has most probably been invented, out of pure love for our beloved Imam (aAfs) and the desire to endow him with highest possible lineage (thus the Roman princess and all the miraculous details about her) - the question about her and the first mentioning of an African slave-wife, immediately turned into a polarized discussion - was he black, how very black is black, how many of his grandmothers were black, what regions of Africa have darker and what "nearly white" skin and even the percentage of genetic material that could prove that no, he was DEFINITELY NOT black!

This so-called religious discussion produced from the beginning two groups: the ones pointing out that the Imam (aAfs) may well have been very dark/almost black, and the others who, in various degrees, by all means desperately tried to prove that no, he couldn't POSSIBLY have had dark skin - God forbid! There is somebody who more than once insists that he must be white and even counts the maternal and paternal genes!

Someone mentioned the racism in the Middle East  (which I have encountered innumerable times in Iran, Syria and among Iraqis), and even Sayyed Bilal Al Habashi (as) not being able to find a wife because of the colour of his skin (you are right, it IS heartbreaking!), and almost every third post ends with "but of course, skin colour doesn't really matter..) after numerous arguments by which he/she desperately tries to prove Imam's (aAfs) whiteness. 

So in spite of all disguising, hiding behind "scholarly" motives or "scientific" proofs, the racism in it's purest form - white is better, more beautiful and even worthier than black - raises it's ugly head... More than 15 centuries after our beloved Messenger (sAawa) told us unmistakeably that our God and Creator (swt) does NOT judge His creation by the colour of their skin, but by their - our - piety! 

And I can tell openly that for my European blond hair, blue eyes and white complexion I was treated (literally!) like a higher being wherever we went in the Middle East, while my husband, a very dark-skinned Basrawi (south Iraq), was barely tolerated, and considered an unfortunate accessory to his, ah! sooo European wife. A friendly female believer, who I jokingly asked if I would still be considered so handsome if I only had one eye, answered in a dead serious manner: If the remaining eye was as blue as your eyes are now, we would still revere you as the most beautiful among us! After only a couple of days after we left Europe for the Middle East, I started to fear this ridiculous, primitive and completely undeserved admiration for me and disrespect of my husband, who was used to that unfair and unjust treatment from his childhood days... And I kept remembering how, in my home country, my female classmates used to sigh and giggle with fascination and admiration, whenever I took out a photo of my husband... 

So why then is this thread so long, while some of us barely disguise the fact that they cannot accept a dark-coloured Imam? (a'udhu billah, and sorry, but it is very obvious!) What ON EARTH does it matter if his skin was "sub-saharan" dark, or "Arabic" dark, or very fair(!), or how many percent of his blessed genes were inherited by his father (as), thus "prooving" that however dark the skin of his blessed mother was, he himself MUST be very fair?! Why is it relevant? Who CARES if he is dark, middle or fair? What SCHOLARLY interest does it have? And, as the Imam (aAfs) always knows what is in the hearts of his followers, so he also MUST know about this kind of conversations - do we really want to add obvious racism to our many shortcomings toward him (aAfs) and his rights over us? 

I am definitely not some moral apostel here on SC, and carry a mountain of flaws and sins on my shoulders, but this topic - the colour of the skin - and not of just somebody's skin but of the man who is our only hope for a better future and the only true love of all our hearts (aAfs) - however we wish him to be the best, the most brave, the most noble and the most handsome even, let's still look sincerely in our hearts and see, if under all those admirable wishes for him (aAfs) there is not that centuries and generations old, not very admirable and very dangerous racistic notion that some are better than the others, just because of their colour... 

By the way, different nations have different notions of beauty - for me, BLACK IS BEAUTIFUL!! :grin:

Kindest regards to all,

Amina

 

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^ thanks for at least posting this sister, truly beautiful post...

 

sometimes after reading some threads, i just say " No wonder why isn't he(as) here yet "

 

What difference does it make if he(aS) has dark skin or white or brown ? 

And I don't understand why muslims particularly those who claim to follow him(as) are so concerned about these useless issues black skin or white skin !!

We are going to die and we don't know what's gonna happen those "beautiful white skins " in Grave !!! I imagine All kind of nasty insects crawling all over bodies that people think are beautiful.... 

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:bismillah:

Salam, A.A.Repentance

Your last argument is indeed the most true wake up call for white-skin-lovers, and people with racistic tendencies in general.

It just occured to me - all those Middle Eastern "very white" individuals, so proud of their colour among the generally darker population of the Middle East, are in Europe, and the West in general, considered dark and often looked down upon (and often discriminated in many aspects of the daily life) by those "truly white" Caucasians - so it is good-bye to fair-skin-glory... 

And so every nation finds someone to despise, and there is always someone even whiter than you, and then there is always someone darker than the others - and it may this time even be you!

So the wheel keeps turning since the dawn of mankind, and the children of Adam (as) still manage to find something irrational to hate and despise each other for -  some ridiculous "reason", even though they know it is completely irrational and primitive...

I think the only cure for this ancient malady of the heart is to spread love and acceptance, and to cherish and enjoy this wonderful diversity and all it's forms of beauty. 

And keep oneself away from "discussing" irrelevant and badly disguised matters of skin colour preferences, especially when our beloved Al Qa'im (aAfs) is concerned.

He (aAfs) is coming soon, I hope, so let us be prepared to behold his blessed beauty - the beauty of his courage, of his purity, of his holiness, of his noble ancestry, of the Truth and Light that he brings with him, and of his blessed appearance and his beautiful, shining face - whatever shade of colour it has! 

He (aAfs) is a true Arab, the successor of his Arab forefathers (as), the son of Allah's (swt) Messenger (sAawa), who was the true and genuine Arab, too. So doesn't that most noble lineage make him worthy to be called "waseem", like his grandfather, the Apostle of Allah (sAawa), whatever his colouring is? Which believer, who had that honour and that divine gift to meet him (aAfs) would (and could) be so vain and lost to even remember such insignificant issue of skin colour?!

Sorry everyone, but here the two of some of the most sensitive issues for me collided - the skin-colour-preferrences, that I have known so well throughout my whole life and deeply abhor, and the mentioning of Our Qa'im, may Allah te'ala hasten his reappearance and make us worthy to die as shuhada between his blessed arms. So I just tried to make some matters clear, even if it sometimes hurts, and make us all turn our focus on truly imortant issues. I did not wish to hurt anyone, but sometimes facing the truth as it is is crucial for all of us. (if we can face that truth about ourselves, and not deny it!)

I promise that this was the last "sermon" from me.:blabla:

Kindest regards,

Amina 

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On February 8, 2016 at 11:16 PM, AvengerAfterRepentance said:

 

We are going to die and we don't know what's gonna happen those "beautiful white skins " in Grave !!! I imagine All kind of nasty insects crawling all over bodies that people think are beautiful.... 

I truly appreciate this reminder...

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On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 1:36 AM, Chaotic Muslem said:

Imam Mahdi will look like the prophet , who was not white, was not black. He was Arab...You are all racist because you dont want the imam to look like Arab! What's wrong with Arabs?

 

smthojbsbeyj#@#

The sahih hadith quotes Muhammad-saws that Hojattallah will be a descendent of Fatima -who has descendants all over the World.

There is also a sahih hadith that says if an Ethiopian slave is appointed over you, follow him.

So Hojattallah maybe black.

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On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 0:16 AM, AvengerAfterRepentance said:

^ thanks for at least posting this sister, truly beautiful post...

 

sometimes after reading some threads, i just say " No wonder why isn't he(as) here yet "

 

What difference does it make if he(aS) has dark skin or white or brown ? 

And I don't understand why muslims particularly those who claim to follow him(as) are so concerned about these useless issues black skin or white skin !!

We are going to die and we don't know what's gonna happen those "beautiful white skins " in Grave !!! I imagine All kind of nasty insects crawling all over bodies that people think are beautiful.... 

I agree! Why does it even matter if the Imam(as) is white or black? Islam is against racism, although I've seen soo many 'muslims' being racist to blacks like tbh who even are you? People shouldn't even be calling themselves Muslims and followers of Ahlulbayt(as) if they care so much about the skin color of a person.

I honestly don't care one bit about what color skin the Imam is going to have, 3anjad it's 2016 and instead of striving hard to be one of the 313, we're too busy talking about how if he's gonna be white or black? Ya Mawlaii

 

 

 

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color doesnt matter and as for the images of all 12 imam on the internet,

its wrong cause it shows that all imam where white but its not true

imam ali and imam zainul abideen had brown skin and there could be imam who where black in color cause some hadiths and books of history says that their mothers where black 

but like i said colors doesnt matter 

plus black people look cool

 

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On 1/10/2016 at 2:31 AM, mina said:

There is no such thing as being ' highly african ' aka black just bcoz the mother was from Africa.And the genes are not shared equally as I mentioned earlier...we carry more genes from our fathers.

Wa Allahu 'alam.

not really   A baby gets 23 chromosomes from his mother and 23 from his father

its 50:50 

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On 10-1-2016 at 3:12 AM, Tawheed313 said:

It is of the 12th Imam a.s, and indeed his race does not matter, but it is historically interesting to know. Furthermore, to those who decide to take up the erronous duty of actually drawing our imams a.s, they need to rectify drawing them all as arab-persians.

The drawings aren't reliable anyway. Moreover, The newest pictures of Christ are represented by Bradd Pitt.

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6 hours ago, neverforgotten313 said:

this is pathetic, and i bet the author was an also dark skinned

and i also bet that the Mahdi(AJTF) isnt black

While i'm not pale, i would describe myself as light-skinned depending on the seasons. I'm not even black, by the way.

The hadiths and historical backgrounds i have given are there for all to see.

The thread is a thorn to all those who can't bear the thought of the imam of our time a.s being mostly black in race and appearance. Unfortunately, racism is rife even in our own communities.

I'm not referring to you by the way.

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On 08/02/2016 at 6:36 AM, Chaotic Muslem said:

Imam Mahdi will look like the prophet , who was not white, was not black. He was Arab...You are all racist because you dont want the imam to look like Arab! What's wrong with Arabs?

 

smthojbsbeyj#@#

Not at all , i don't care what race he is. But sadly, in our communities there is racism, and people who can't handle or bear the thought of our imam a.s being mostly black.

Additionally, the hadith that states he will resemble rasullah s.a.w is muwathaq, not hasan, nor saheeh.

The hadith i have presented about his mother being black is a saheeh hadith. Furthermore, it's accepted that imams a.s before the imam of our time were mixed race or dark skinned, meaning the 11th imam a.s was probably medium or dark skinned before marrying the twelfth imam a.s.

Imam Mahdi a.s isn't an Arab like Rasullah s.a.w , he is mixed race.

Furthermore, i resemble my grandfather, but i've had many races mixed in with me, despite not being the same colour as him.

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On 08/02/2016 at 3:19 AM, Amina said:

:bismillah:

Salam everyone,

I do agree that we should study every aspect of Imam's (aAfs) life, including his lineage, as he is one of the most important parts of our creed, but I have read this thread from the beginning till the end and found it more and more incredible the more I read.

The actual question about Narjis Khatoon and the fact that she has most probably been invented, out of pure love for our beloved Imam (aAfs) and the desire to endow him with highest possible lineage (thus the Roman princess and all the miraculous details about her) - the question about her and the first mentioning of an African slave-wife, immediately turned into a polarized discussion - was he black, how very black is black, how many of his grandmothers were black, what regions of Africa have darker and what "nearly white" skin and even the percentage of genetic material that could prove that no, he was DEFINITELY NOT black!

This so-called religious discussion produced from the beginning two groups: the ones pointing out that the Imam (aAfs) may well have been very dark/almost black, and the others who, in various degrees, by all means desperately tried to prove that no, he couldn't POSSIBLY have had dark skin - God forbid! There is somebody who more than once insists that he must be white and even counts the maternal and paternal genes!

Someone mentioned the racism in the Middle East  (which I have encountered innumerable times in Iran, Syria and among Iraqis), and even Sayyed Bilal Al Habashi (as) not being able to find a wife because of the colour of his skin (you are right, it IS heartbreaking!), and almost every third post ends with "but of course, skin colour doesn't really matter..) after numerous arguments by which he/she desperately tries to prove Imam's (aAfs) whiteness. 

So in spite of all disguising, hiding behind "scholarly" motives or "scientific" proofs, the racism in it's purest form - white is better, more beautiful and even worthier than black - raises it's ugly head... More than 15 centuries after our beloved Messenger (sAawa) told us unmistakeably that our God and Creator (swt) does NOT judge His creation by the colour of their skin, but by their - our - piety! 

And I can tell openly that for my European blond hair, blue eyes and white complexion I was treated (literally!) like a higher being wherever we went in the Middle East, while my husband, a very dark-skinned Basrawi (south Iraq), was barely tolerated, and considered an unfortunate accessory to his, ah! sooo European wife. A friendly female believer, who I jokingly asked if I would still be considered so handsome if I only had one eye, answered in a dead serious manner: If the remaining eye was as blue as your eyes are now, we would still revere you as the most beautiful among us! After only a couple of days after we left Europe for the Middle East, I started to fear this ridiculous, primitive and completely undeserved admiration for me and disrespect of my husband, who was used to that unfair and unjust treatment from his childhood days... And I kept remembering how, in my home country, my female classmates used to sigh and giggle with fascination and admiration, whenever I took out a photo of my husband... 

So why then is this thread so long, while some of us barely disguise the fact that they cannot accept a dark-coloured Imam? (a'udhu billah, and sorry, but it is very obvious!) What ON EARTH does it matter if his skin was "sub-saharan" dark, or "Arabic" dark, or very fair(!), or how many percent of his blessed genes were inherited by his father (as), thus "prooving" that however dark the skin of his blessed mother was, he himself MUST be very fair?! Why is it relevant? Who CARES if he is dark, middle or fair? What SCHOLARLY interest does it have? And, as the Imam (aAfs) always knows what is in the hearts of his followers, so he also MUST know about this kind of conversations - do we really want to add obvious racism to our many shortcomings toward him (aAfs) and his rights over us? 

I am definitely not some moral apostel here on SC, and carry a mountain of flaws and sins on my shoulders, but this topic - the colour of the skin - and not of just somebody's skin but of the man who is our only hope for a better future and the only true love of all our hearts (aAfs) - however we wish him to be the best, the most brave, the most noble and the most handsome even, let's still look sincerely in our hearts and see, if under all those admirable wishes for him (aAfs) there is not that centuries and generations old, not very admirable and very dangerous racistic notion that some are better than the others, just because of their colour... 

By the way, different nations have different notions of beauty - for me, BLACK IS BEAUTIFUL!! :grin:

Kindest regards to all,

Amina

 

Absolutely beautiful post.

I'm incredibly busy in real life atm. I'll give this post the response it deserves when i get time inshAllah

 

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5 hours ago, Tawheed313 said:

Not at all , i don't care what race he is. But sadly, in our communities there is racism, and people who can't handle or bear the thought of our imam a.s being mostly black.

Additionally, the hadith that states he will resemble rasullah s.a.w is muwathaq, not hasan, nor saheeh.

The hadith i have presented about his mother being black is a saheeh hadith. Furthermore, it's accepted that imams a.s before the imam of our time were mixed race or dark skinned, meaning the 11th imam a.s was probably medium or dark skinned before marrying the twelfth imam a.s.

Imam Mahdi a.s isn't an Arab like Rasullah s.a.w , he is mixed race.

Furthermore, i resemble my grandfather, but i've had many races mixed in with me, despite not being the same colour as him.

Bismih Ta'ala
Assalamu Alaykum

Brother, we have explicit narrations that state that the Al-Qa'im Al-Muntadhar (aaf) will have the form of the Prophet (saaw), Br. @The Batman quoted to you a muwathaq hadith from Kamal Al-Deen:

From as-Sadiq from his forefathers عليهم السلام he said: The Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم said: The Mahdi is from my sons, his name is my name and his kunya is my kunya. He is, of all people, the most similar to me in his form and his character. There will be an occultation and a perplexity regarding him until the people go astray from their religions. At that time, he will then appear like a shooting star and fill the Earth with equity and justice as it would be fraught with injustice and oppression. (Kamal ad-Deen) 

You're disagreement with this narration is that this is only muwathaq while what you quote is sahih. However, it should be noted that we have multiple narrations that state this, and explicitly state that he will be reddish in his complexion. I will quote the ahadith which state this explicitly from Kitab Al-Ghaybah of Sheikh Al-Nu'mani:

Abu Sulayman Ahmad bin Hawtha narrated from Ibraheem bin Iss’haq an-Nahawandi from Abdullah bin Hammad al-Ansari from Abdullah bin Bukayr that Hamran bin A’yun had said: “I said to Abu Ja'far al-Baqir (as): I have come to Medina and I have one thousand dinars in my purse. I have promised Allah either to spend the money a dinar after another at your door or you answer me to what I am going to ask you about.” He said: “O Hamran, ask and I will answer and do not spend your money.” I said: “I ask you by your kinship to the Prophet (S); are you the man of the matter (deliverance)?” He said: “No, I am not.” I said: “May my father and mother die for you! Who is he then?” He said: “It is he, who has a red face, hollow eyes, high eyebrows, wide shoulders, dandruff in his head and a mark in his face. May Allah have mercy upon Moses.”

Abdul Wahid bin Abdullah bin Younus narrated from Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Rabah az-Zuhri from Ahmad bin Ali al-Himyari from al-Hakam, the brother of Mushma’all al-Asadi, that Abdur Raheem al-Qaseer had said: I said to Abu Ja'far al-Baqir (as): Does the saying of Amirul Mo'mineen (as) “May my father die for him! The son of the best of bondmaids,” refer to Fatima (as)?” He said: “Fatima (as) is the best of free ladies. He (al-Mahdi) is the one with a big abdomen and a red face. May Allah have mercy upon so-and-so!”

Now, I know you will dispute saying that these narrations are weak, and your contention with the hadith from Kamal Al-Deen is that it is muwathaq and your's is sahih, but there's no issue other than the one you're trying to find with it. The Imam's whole birth was a miracle, his mother's pregnancy was concealed like the pregnancy of Musa's mother, other than that, we have ahadith saying that the Imams are born from the sides of their mothers, not the normal places of birth, and that their mothers never experience menses - you as a med student can realize why thats miraculous, since someone who never experiences menses can never get pregnant. Nothing about their birth was normal, so why is the fact that their father has a North-African/Berber complexion and his mother has an African (or possibly Roman/Turkic complexion), that he cannot have a red complexion considering all the other supernatural incidences surrounding him. Brother, I acknowledge that there is anti-black racism among Shi'as, but you wishing for the Imam to be black won't make him black. And his skin colour shouldn't be an issue for you outside you using it to identify who he will be when he returns.

wa assalam

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On 1/10/2016 at 1:54 PM, KingKong5200 said:

Even if he has some African genetics he wouldn't be black. A lot of ahadith say that he would have a face of Noor and that he would be white. Heck I even heard that he has some Jewish genetics

Reminds me of a conversation I had with a Pakistani American some years ago. Let me paraphrase it:

Pakistani-American: "No prophet was ever black."

Me: "Why do you say that? After all, Allah raised prophets and messengers from all nations."

Pakistani-American: "It is because prophets have faces of Nur. And a face of Nur can never be black."

Me: "Oh, I see. What about Imams? None of them can be black I guess."

Pakistani-American: "Please stop blaspheming the Imams. It is blasphemy to attribute a dark skin to any Imam. They have the greatest level of Nur. They are the whitest of creation." [End of Chat]

Whenever the skin colour of any prophet or Imam comes up, one usually sees this "colour does not matter" comment. However, when the event actually happens, it will matter a lot.

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23 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Reminds me of a conversation I had with a Pakistani American some years ago. Let me paraphrase it:

Pakistani-American: "No prophet was ever black."

Me: "Why do you say that? After all, Allah raised prophets and messengers from all nations."

Pakistani-American: "It is because prophets have faces of Nur. And a face of Nur can never be black."

Me: "Oh, I see. What about Imams? None of them can be black I guess."

Pakistani-American: "Please stop blaspheming the Imams. It is blasphemy to attribute a dark skin to any Imam. They have the greatest level of Nur. They are the whitest of creation." [End of Chat]

Whenever the skin colour of any prophet or Imam comes up, one usually sees this "colour does not matter" comment. However, when the event actually happens, it will matter a lot.

That Pakistani must have been pretty racist, even the faces of black people shine light/glisten in the sun or "give Nur":

2807098807_a3a31892bf.jpg?v=0

Notice the light coming from the top of this boy's forehead this is your "Nur."

Also one of the closest Sahaba to the Holy Prophet(SAWS) was black Bilal ibn Rabah.

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12 minutes ago, Enlightened Follower said:

That Pakistani must have been pretty racist, even the faces of black people shine light/glisten in the sun or "give Nur":

2807098807_a3a31892bf.jpg?v=0

Notice the light coming from the top of this boy's forehead this is your "Nur."

Also one of the closest Sahaba to the Holy Prophet(SAWS) was black Bilal ibn Rabah.

Nur, in Islam, does not mean that you glow or shine like a fluorescent lamp or that you "glisten in the sun." It is spiritual light only, and has nothing to do with your physical appearance. It refers to purity in the heart and in deeds. Otherwise, President G W Bush would have more Nur than Imam 'Ali (peace be upon him), who is described as having the same skin colour as Hadrat Bilal (May Allah be pleased with him). May Allah protect us from deviation.

I have often wondered whether a black Shi'a ayatullah would have any non-black followers.

Edited by أبو فاطمة المحمدي
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10 hours ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Nur, in Islam, does not mean that you glow or shine like a fluorescent lamp or that you "glisten in the sun." It is spiritual light only, and has nothing to do with your physical appearance. It refers to purity in the heart and in deeds. 

Brother, I beg to differ slightly with you on the matter that nur is completely devoid in the physical sense. While I agree concerning the spiritual aspect, I think that the physical aspect applies as well as a result of the spiritual. It's irrelevant to skin color, but the faces of mumineen can reflect their inner nur. I'm inclined to believe so due to traditions that say Salatul layl brightens the face of the praying person as one of the specific benefits described (among a number of other benefits...wasail Ash-Shia, volume 5, page 282)

Or traditions that describe the grandsons of the Prophet (s) as bright as the moon, or the title given to Qamar-e-bani Hashim (Al Abbas (a)).

Edited by Sumayyeh
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2 minutes ago, Sumayyeh said:

Brother, I beg to differ slightly with you on the matter that nur is completely devoid in the physical sense. While I agree concerning the spiritual aspect, I think that the physical aspect applies as well as a result of the spiritual. It's irrelevant to skin color, but the faces of mumineen can reflect their inner nur. I'm inclined to believe so due to traditions that say Salatul layl brightens the face of the praying person as one of the specific benefits described (among a number of other benefits...wasail As-Shia, volume 5, page 282)

Or traditions that describe the grandsons of the Prophet (s) as bright as the moon, or the title given to Qamar-e-bani Hashim (Al Abbas (a)).

You are obviously taking those traditions too literally.

A black person does NOT glow in the face, and that does not mean he is not a friend of Allah. Some black people are literally as black as black paint. They never glow. Never!

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1 hour ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

You are obviously taking those traditions too literally.

A black person does NOT glow in the face, and that does not mean he is not a friend of Allah. Some black people are literally as black as black paint. They never glow. Never!

I beg to differ again.

They can glow in the face. Some people literally as black as paint, may be most radiant with Noor.

Also if I'm taking the meaning of the benefit of Salatul layl too literally per the hadith cited, perhaps you could provide an alternative interpretation....for the hadith in question clearly referred to the face. :)

Case in point:

Sheikh ZakZaky (May Allah swt protect him)

 

Edited by Sumayyeh
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Salam Alaykum.

Bismillah.

Does it matter what color our present Imam is??? Why are we even talking about our present Imam's race??? Will you not obey him if he was white or black?

Wasalam.

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1 hour ago, Sumayyeh said:

I beg to differ again.

They can glow in the face. Some people literally as black as paint, may be most radiant with Noor.

Also if I'm taking the meaning of the benefit of Salatul layl too literally per the hadith cited, perhaps you could provide an alternative interpretation....for the hadith in question clearly referred to the face. :)

Case in point:

Sheikh ZakZaky (May Allah swt protect him)

Are you black?

I am.

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1 hour ago, 12reasons4truth. said:

Salam Alaykum.

Bismillah.

Does it matter what color our present Imam is??? Why are we even talking about our present Imam's race??? Will you not obey him if he was white or black?

Wasalam.

When both Prophet 'Isa and Imam al-Mahdi, peace be upon them both, return, and they are darker-skinned than people had always imagined, then there would be a major fitnah within the Ummah.

Technically, it shouldn't matter how a prophet or Imam looks. But, with the sorry state of the Ummah, Allah might actually have a major test in wait for us.

What are the odds that a child - whose mother, grandmother, and great grandmother are blacks and whose father, grandfather and great grandfather are half-Africans - will be white? Very low, I would say.

Edited by أبو فاطمة المحمدي
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3 minutes ago, Sumayyeh said:

Lol....ummm...

Now what does that have to do with anything? 

^Btw...so is Sheikh ZakZaky. And so was Bilal Habashi. 

Put Shaykh al-Zakzaky (HA) is a completely dark room and then check whether he glows and lights up the place (going by your definition of what Nur is). Perhaps, then, you will understand better what I have been saying.

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2 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Put Shaykh al-Zakzaky (HA) is a completely dark room and then check whether he glows and lights up the place (going by your definition of what Nur is). Perhaps, then, you will understand better what I have been saying.

I'm sorry, but you didn't understand what I stated to begin with. I never defined Noor as glow in the dark or fluorescent.

You took my words completely out of context.

Dua al iftititah:

bayyidh bihi woojahana....

 

^ I doubt we're asking Allah (swt) to make our faces fluorescent in the above dua. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Sumayyeh said:

I'm sorry, but you didn't understand what I stated to begin with. I never defined Noor as glow in the dark or fluorescent.

You took my words completely out of context.

Dua al iftititah:

bayyidh bihi woojahana....

^ I doubt we're asking Allah (swt) to make our faces fluorescent in the above dua. 

That du'a above literally means "make our faces white through it." But, "white" in what sense? Literally? Having a white face and a black body? Having a face which is lighter than the body?

As you can see, my sister, that du'a cannot be taken literally.

Edited by أبو فاطمة المحمدي
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The fact that the 12th Imam AJ is multiracial should be a comfort to all Muslims.

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