Imam Ali commands us to give "ORIGINAL RESPECT" to Umm Ayesha.

[Zaydif74]

We Shia, have two sources of guidance that our fiqh is based upon:-

#1- The Quran - They Quran supersedes EVERYONE and EVERYTHING regardless of whomever it is, simply because its Word of Allah himself and no one can supersede Allah's word.

#2- AhleBayt -  Prophet Muhammad being the highest authority in hierarchy of AhleBayt by far, for being chosen the last and final Messenger, and then the Imams of his house hold. If any of the imams has been attributed to have said something that contradicts the Quran and/or Prophet Muhammad, that hadith is to be rejected and considered false since Imams will not go against the laws of the Quran or Nabi. Similarly If Nabi is attributed to have said something that contradicts Quran, in that case that hadith is to be considered false and rejected, since - its our belief is that - Nabi would never go against the Quran. Only Quran can not be abrogated by anyone or anything.

 

 

The case of Umm Ayesha according to Quran and AhleBayt:

 

#1 - The Quran:

Allah knew about all the events are to take place in future, he knew Imam Ali and Umm Ayesha are going to go to war with each other in which Imam Ali is going to be on Haq, He knew that Umm Ayesha is going to declare war on Imam Ali due to Caliphs Othman's killing and everything else, he knew what the future is going to bring because he is the creator of that future,and still he commands us "The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers." (Quran 33:6) - hence Umm Ayesha.

 

 

#2- AhleBayt :
Imam Ali in Nahjul Balagha Sermon #155 clearly mentions "As regards a certain woman, she is in the grip of womanly views, and malice is boiling in her bosom like the furnace of the blacksmith. If she were called upon to deal with others as she is dealing with me she would not have done it. (As for me), even hereafter she will be allowed her original respect, while the reckoning (of her misdeeds) is an obligation on Allah".

Source:  Nahjul Balagha - Sermon #155 (About the malice by Ayesha and warning the People of Basra about what to occur) 

 

In Conclusion:

Our Imam, Imam Ali is clearly commanding us that Umm Ayesha is full of hated towards him and mentions that if it was someone else besides Imam Ali himself, she would not act the way she did but then he commands us that she should be given the ORIGINAL RESPECT - which implies treat her like there was not war or hatred among us. Further more he leaves her case to God for his to take care of it. Based on these two, In conclude, we have to show respect towards Umm Ayesha and am interested in your comments on it? Any comments?

[guest050817]

We should not revere her, but certianly the misguided individuals who preach about certian punishments she is getting in hell, or that she commited adultery, or that she definitely killed Rasullah s.a.w need to really reflect on what religion they are following.

However, of the bad things we believe she has done(that are legitimate unlike the above), we need to discuss them in an academic way to respect the sensitivities of our brothers in the other madhabs.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Tawheed313

[Cyrax]

12 minutes ago, Tawheed313 said:

We should not revere her

Why not?  Imam Ali رضي الله عنه even in your sources said she should be given her original respect.  As far as her "mistakes", there are actually books written by scholars of Ahl as-Sunnah who discuss these things in an "academic" way; she is not considered infallible to any Muslim

[Zaydif74]

@ Tawhid313 - I have read a lot of your posts and I have a view about you as being a level headed person but I am a bit surprised by your reply. I gave you the Quran and AhleBayt, and you basically in a way simply rejected both on your own authority by suggesting that we should not revere her, but that is exactly what our first Imam is telling us to do. Imam Ali - whom she fought against - in Nahjul Balagha is commanding us to give her, her ORIGINAL RESPECT (Imams words not mine) and let God take care of her actions.

Can you explain to me what is ORIGINAL RESPECT for Umm Ayesha?

 

Edited January 6, 2016 by Zaydif74

[guest050817]

18 minutes ago, Zaydif74 said:

@ Tawhid313 - I have read a lot of your posts and I have a view about you as being a level headed person but I am a bit surprised by your reply. I gave you the Quran and AhleBayt, and you basically in a way simply rejected both on your own authority by suggesting that we should not revere her, but that is exactly what our first Imam is telling us to do. Imam Ali - whom she fought against - in Nahjul Balagha is commanding us to give her, her ORIGINAL RESPECT (Imams words not mine) and let God take care of her actions.

Can you explain to me what is ORIGINAL RESPECT for Umm Ayesha?

 

 

22 minutes ago, Cyrax said:

Why not?  Imam Ali رضي الله عنه even in your sources said she should be given her original respect.  As far as her "mistakes", there are actually books written by scholars of Ahl as-Sunnah who discuss these things in an "academic" way; she is not considered infallible to any Muslim

Salamunalaykum,

For umulmimineen Aisha, wife of rasulllah s.a.w, we need to speak about her in a way that is moderate and respectful. Insulting her or calling her by names, or swearing at her, or jumping on any rumour we hear about her is wrong. We need to understand many among the ahlus-sunnah revere her, and so discuss her with tolerance and moderation.

However, there is no sin in discussing, in an academic fashion, why we disagree with a number of things she has done or commited.

We should not, for example, praise her and claim she was among the most pious of wives and did no wrong.

Rather, we need to be honest with differences on historical issues - but to do so in a dignified way, a respectful way, and a tolerant way.

[Cyrax]

1 minute ago, Tawheed313 said:

 

Salamunalaykum,

For umulmimineen Aisha, wife of rasulllah s.a.w, we need to speak about her in a way that is moderate and respectful. Insulting her or calling her by names, or swearing at her, or jumping on any rumour we hear about her is wrong. We need to understand many among the ahlus-sunnah revere her, and so discuss her with tolerance and moderation.

However, there is no sin in discussing, in an academic fashion, why we disagree with a number of things she has done or commited.

We should not, for example, praise her and claim she was among the most pious of wives and did no wrong.

Rather, we need to be honest with differences on historical issues - but to do so in a dignified way, a respectful way, and a tolerant way.

wa alykum assalaam wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakatuhu,

Of course we speak of the Mothers of the Believers رضي الله عنهم with respect, this doesn't need explaining except to certain people.  As far as discussing her mistakes, again, this is done all the time with non-12ers in an academic sense.  As far as her doing no wrong, again, no one considers her infallible or above criticism.  As far as having a problem with saying she is "amongst the most pious of wives", then most I've seen people say is she is the most knowledgeable of the Messengers صلى الله عليه وسلم wives and that she was the most beloved to him in this dunya (of which I believe).  Generally, the most pious women from this Ummah are considered Khadijah and Fatima رضي الله عنهما.

[Cyrax]

Quote

I have the nahjul balagha infront of me right now and I dont see what you quoted 

What is your source???

But this is a beautiful sermon, I needed this Alhamdulillah, I feel wonderful MashAllah 

It is sermon 156, it looks like the OP made a typo

[Noor al Batul]

There is a difference between "revering" someone and "respecting" them. Reverence implies admiration - elevated status, that I admire someone and look up to them. And, sorry, but there's nothing to admire about Aisha, according to us. As for respect, I can respect my teacher for their knowledge without agreeing to their point of view or liking them. I can respect elders only due to their age. It isn't necessarily linked to the character of a person (and whether that's a good thing or not is debatable).

The Quranic verse you brought forth has been explained enough on this site, already, no need to repeat all that. As regards to the letter - what is her "original respect"? That is not clear from this letter. It could simply mean that her title as the prophet's (s) wife will still be respected, for RasulAllah's (s) sake, even after what she committed. She would have been treated politely, but with awe? Admiration? What for? Imam Ali (a) returned her back home, respectfully, but did he also never point out her wrong-doings? Clearly, the letter you quoted shows he did.

What I understand from this letter is that Imam Ali (a) did not punish her because she was a wife of the prophet (s) and had her escorted back home which, according to the Quran, she shouldn't have left, I think (e.g. thus her "original respect" as such had been restored to her), and her punishment is up to Allah; that's how I interprete it.

Respect were respect is due. She was one of the prophet's (s) wives, acknowledge that. She did wrongs (crimes) in her life, criticise her for it. And criticising does not equal cursing/abusing, just to clarify.

As for the rest, Allah is the most High, the most Just.

On this note, though, I am not really knowledgeable in this regard (varifying different sources/hadiths), but the Nahjul Balagha is not the Quran hence, why the content someone quotes for argument's sake should be varified like any hadith, should it not? Not aimed at the OP (there's nothing objectionable about the letter you quoted nor anything that contradicts Shi'i doctrines), just a general statement since everything within it is often treated as 100% authentic. - Ma'asalama.

 

Edited January 6, 2016 by Noor al Batul

[Noor al Batul]

Quote

http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-156-whoever-can-time-keep-himself#f_fa2f65f6_1

it's not sermon 156, like I said I've got the book infront of me

I just read sermon 156 here's a quote for you brothers

 

 "it is quran. If you ask it to speak it won't do so; but I tell you about it" imam ali- sermon 156 nahjul balagha 

 

 

So it is not sermon 156 

 

What is your source?

Have a look here - I don't know why, but the link is above, in the quote. It's a bit difficult typing on my tablet.

[Cyrax]

Quote

 

it's not sermon 156, like I said I've got the book infront of me

I just read sermon 156 here's a quote for you brothers

 

 "it is quran. If you ask it to speak it won't do so; but I tell you about it" imam ali- sermon 156 nahjul balagha 

 

 

So it is not sermon 156 

 

What is your source?

It is there, I am not sure why you don't see it.  It is the second quote mentioned and there is a long footnote trying to explain it away

[Noor al Batul]

Quote

 

Brother, please, check sermon 154 in your edition. The sermon which is #156 in that pic was #158 on al-islam.org so, might be that you find the part about Aisha two sermons before that. Try it out.

Personally, I have pdfs on the Nahjul Balagha and an app, and both contain said sermon. I hope this helps you.

Ma'asalama.

 

 

[Zaydif74]

@ Everyone;

For some reason, seems like either the Sermon numbers are jumbled up a couple up and down from Sermon 155 in some of the publications that you are mentioning above, not sure why is that, but I have it as Sermon #155 in two of the sources that I have.

 

Online Source:

http://www.duas.org/pdfs/Nahjul-Balagha.pdf

Sermon #155, page 549 in the above link. I also have another downloaded version of Nahjul Balagha in PDF format which has this sermon as #155.

 

You Tube Source:

- Imam Ali's words on Aisha - S. Kamal Haidari (ENG SUB)   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1r-Y8abt_c8

 

- Imam Ali Sermon 155 Nahjul Balagha  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_Ewwot144Y

(2:20-2:43)

 

CONCLUSION:

Now coming back to original object of this thread, yes I agree with the notion that we can and should debate the history of Islam academically without cursing's, disrespects, insults and I am doing that for no one else but because we follow the Quran and AhleBayt and the Quran and AhleBayt are commanding us to do that. On top of that, she is the wife of our Nabi, the source of all the Imams, we cannot forget that factor and she is Ummul Momineen according to the Quran. You can keep on hashing the term reverence or whatnot similar to some Sunnis who keep on hashing on what the term Mola means, is it master or friends etc but the commands are clear and whether you follow them or not, its up to you.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Zaydif74

[Skanderbeg]

I don't know man.

She accused Mary the Copt of adultery. 

She caused a war of muslims Vs. muslims. She didn't stay in her house but istead led an army. 

And she didn't wanted Imam Hasan a.s. to be buried next to his grandfather the Prophet s.a.w. 

Are these the qualities and characters of a good muslim wife let alone the Prophet's wife?

[أبو فاطمة المحمدي]

21 minutes ago, Skanderbeg said:

I don't know man.

She accused Mary the Copt of adultery. 

She caused a war of muslims Vs. muslims. She didn't stay in her house but istead led an army. 

And she didn't wanted Imam Hasan a.s. to be buried next to his grandfather the Prophet s.a.w. 

Are these the qualities and characters of a good muslim wife let alone the Prophet's wife?

She committed undeniable crimes, and raised grave question marks about her iman. But, did Imam 'Ali ever show disrespect to her? She can be criticized for her evil deeds. However, the criticism has to be done in a calm manner, not the rabid way some folks have adopted.

[S.M.H.A.]

 

There is a concern that we are focusing on Outlier reports, in all aspects. Maybe we have been indoctrinated into the system we live in, look at media, it only pushes out outlier reports, its sole survival is based on sensationalizing these outlier reports, behaviours, people, actions and have talking heads earn their living, and there are so many channels within a particular media group, like Tv, Radio, internet that people are really working hard to find and outdo others in this endeavour.  

 

Plus, it's the age of the internet, everyone is connected, so people need stuff to talk about, otherwise, if your stuff is boring, they will move on to other hot topic, like the news networks, if you do not satisfy the insatiable desire of constant sensational stuff, your rating drops and other channel are trying to outdio you, so you better get your game on .

 

All this, is to keep us, busy with mundane issues, and so we do not focus on real issues. General public is busy with “stuff” let's keep it this way.

 

In religion, same is going on, real issue are often hidden underneath a pile of other non relevant issue. Since they are not as sensational, no one really, talks about them.

 

In general, we really don't care about what will be the faith of anyone who lived in the past. We disassociate ourselves from people, not based on personal envy, grudge or hatred of them and their family. We just want a clear path/ a straight path to the Truth. In order to do that we need to identify the people who can lead us and guide on this straight path[which we do ask,  last least five times a day, some of you who are punctual]. To disassociate ourselves from the people who can’t guide us to the straight path, it's important to constantly remind ourselves, not to be like them in words or action.

 

Important question is why do we publicly, point to certain things?

 

It affect us and Islam, as you see around the world. We are the victims of beliefs formed by some muslims. As the books of some Muslims have relied heavily on taking Hadith/Tradition from certain Narrators of Hadiths or others have narrated from them. Since the entire religion, or religious outlook of some groups is based on these books, deemed authentic.

 

Since some Muslims rely on “science of Hadith” verification, and the whole system is build around this science of study of Narrators of Hadith/traditions. How is it that some people are considered the most knowledgeable in the first place, as the most knowledgeable person has the curtains removed from them, and they are to achieve clarity in all aspects.

 

On what basis these people were and are been acknowledged as the most learned and the most knowledgeable - with all the mistakes they have made. Even if you claim that they repented.

 

How do you make a distinction, as to what state/intention of this person was when this particular Hadith/Tradition was narrated?  Irony is that why such reliance on such people, when you have clear direction to follow the people of the reminder, people who are with the truth, people identified as the gate of knowledge?

 

[Skanderbeg]

48 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

She committed undeniable crimes, and raised grave question marks about her iman. But, did Imam 'Ali ever show disrespect to her? She can be criticized for her evil deeds. However, the criticism has to be done in a calm manner, not the rabid way some folks have adopted.

Well the Ahl al-Bayt a.s. are the best muslims with the best behaviour (after Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. so if Imam Ali's a.s. stance towards her did not changed according to Najhul Balagha then we have to follow him a.s. in that behaviour. 
 

Edited January 7, 2016 by Skanderbeg

[Zaydif74]

1 hour ago, Skanderbeg said:

Well the Ahl al-Bayt a.s. are the best muslims with the best behaviour (after Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. so if Imam Ali's a.s. stance towards her did not changed according to Najhul Balagha then we have to follow him a.s. in that behaviour. 
 

Exactly my point, all of you who want to treat Umm Ayesha in any other way then what the Quran and AhleBayt (PBUT) teaches us by claiming, ohh but she did this or ooh she did that - do you consider yourselves to be above the Quran and the Imam to decide how she is to be treated once the Quran and Imam Ali has given their verdict?

Else, all of you who want to be - well let me put it this way - want to be more Catholic then the pope Or more Palestinian then Palestinians themselves, tell me what exactly does it mean ORIGINAL RESPECT? Imam Alis words not mine. Don't play with words like one of the readers has above in the answers, look deep in you heart and by keeping God as your witness, keeping true to yourself and knowing the character of Imam Ali, tell me what did he mean when he said, give her the original respect and let her sins be taken care by God? To me its sure as death, sounds like Imam Ali is leaving her judgment to God and honoring her completely because of her being wife of Nabi. This was Imam Ali and that was his judgment OR else the terms original respect do not make any sense even if you take a little bit out of her respect.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Zaydif74

[Zaydif74]

Well, for those of you still on the fence, let me give you another advice from Imam Ali (KAW) and this is not his normal advice but the Last will of Imam Ali (KAW), for all of you who still have their own opinions about a matter that is already been decided by the noble Quran and Imam Ali.

 

.... "Do not talk about things which you do not know. Do not speculate about and pass verdicts on subjects about which you are not in a position to form an opinion and are not called upon to do so. Give up the way where there is a possibility of your going astray.

When there is danger on your wandering in the wilderness of ignorance, possibility of losing the sight of the goal which you want to attain and of reaching the end aimed at, then it is better to give up the quest than to advance facing uncertain dangers and unforeseen risks".....

 

None of us is really in a position to form an opinion because we were not there at Jamal and/or at the Sermone #155; all we have is books written 1300+ years ago and events that happened, and we do not know what exactly Imam Ali meant when he said he grants her, her ORIGINAL RESPECT. Further more Imam Ali (KAW) simply commands you, " Give Up the way where there is a possibility of your going astray ".

 

Source: http://www.al-islam.org/articles/letter-father-son-last-will-ali-ibn-abi-talib