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Coincidence? 12 number in Quran.

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 The word Astafa is used 12 verses in its different forms. In one verse it occurs twice.

[2:130] [2:132] [2:247] [3:33] [3:42] - twice. [7:144] [22:75] [27:59] [35:32] [37:153] [39:4]

Imam is also used 12 times.

[2:124] [9:12] [11:17] [15:79] [17:71] [21:72] [25:74] [28:5] [28:41] [32:23] [36:12] [46:12]

The word Al-Qurba is used 12 Times in Quran, in 11 verses (it occurs twice in one verse):

http://www.holyquran.net/cgi-bin/qsearch.pl?st=%C7%E1%DE%D1%C8%EC&sc=1&sv=1&ec=114&ev=6&ae=a&mw=&alef=ON

Musa and Harun names mentioned in the same verse occurs 12 Times while Harun names occurs 20 times. Suratal Taha where Harun name is mentioned before Musa in "Lord of Harun and Musa" is the 20th Surah while the other two places, Musa is mentioned first.

http://www.holyquran.net/cgi-bin/qsearch.pl?st=%E5%C7%D1%E6%E4&sc=1&sv=1&ec=114&ev=6&ae=&mw=r&alef=ON

Given the promise to Ibrahim about Imammate in his offspring, it is noteworthy to mention as well Ismael name occurs 12 times in Quran:

2:125 2:127 2:133 2:136 2:140 3:84 4:163 6:86 14:39 19:54 21:85 38:48

Verse 12 of Suratal Maeeda reminds of 12 Captains in bani-Israel.

Imam Ali was appointed on the 12th month of the year.

Then you have this topic: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235033793-confirmation-of-ghayba-of-12th-imam/#comment-2872658

Which has "unseen" in Quran 12 times. And that associated with muflihoon, that word muflihoon takes place 12 times in Quran.

In the 12th Surah of Quran, ghayb occurs twice, in the story of Yusuf.

Not saying this means anything. Not saying it doesn't either. Something to reflect about, that's all.

 

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okay let`s just agree for the sake of argument that it`s not a coincidence but still is there anything in the Holy Quran which proves the concept of Immamah is infact true & a pillar of Islam and those who do not believe in it are not Muslims ?

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4 hours ago, Student_of_Deen said:

okay let`s just agree for the sake of argument that it`s not a coincidence but still is there anything in the Holy Quran which proves the concept of Immamah is infact true & a pillar of Islam and those who do not believe in it are not Muslims ?

There is implicit and explicit verses that prove the issue of Imammate being in fact true pillar of Islam. Let's look before getting into some these verses discuss language and it's expression.

If the Prophet said...

Indeed God has given a great authority to Abraham, Ismael, Isaac, Yaqoub, and Yusuf to the extent who turn away from it was in hell and those who believed in it and did good were in paradise. O you who believe, Obey me and those who posses the authority from this nation, therefore, if you dispute in a disagreement make sure to refer it back to my judgement which is God's judgement.

What impression does those in Authority here have? Let's further ask about the therefore...statement.

If I were to say eat fruits and vegetables, they are healthy for you, therefore eat the oranges and carrots in the fridge.

Would it mean you don't eat other vegetables or fruits?

If I say:

 

O my son, obey your teachers, so if Mr. Flemming assigns you homework, make sure to do it.

Does it mean future teachers or other teachers then Mr. Flemming assign you homework, you don't do it?

Let's us ask sincerely, by the expression, language what is the impression it ought to give?

Let's further discuss the issue.

 

If the Prophet said 

 

Indeed people were misguided by religious leaders who had in fact no authority to go against the path of believers.  Indeed it's out of envy of people who God has graced. In fact, they would not give these people a single thing of worth where it they were given such authority and in fact have no such authority. Why do they envy though when God has given the family of Ibrahim, the book, the wisdom, and given the a great authority. So of the people are they who believed in it, and of them are those who turned away from, and hell is sufficient as a burning punishment for that. Indeed those who reject God's instances of guidance and proofs and signs will be in hell while those who believe and do good will be in paradise. O you who believe, don't be like that, but rather, believe in God and obey the Messenger and those who Possess the authority from you, therefore if you dispute in a thing, refer it to God and his Messenger. Don't be like those who refer to the Taghut for judgement and turn away from the authority of God. And in all times, we sent Messengers but to be obeyed by God's permission.

What impression does it give? Think about it.

Further let's add the phrases after some discussion....

If people were to refer it to any matter of fear or security to those who Possess the authority from them, those who can search out the matter and investigate it would of known it, and were it not for God's grace and mercy, you would all be following Satan except a few.

 

It's a matter of perspective. Seeing the true recitation over that of the false one, the hasty one from Satan and his forces in my view.

Now read:

Have you seen a portion of those given a portion of the book, they believe in the Jibt  and Taghut and say these are more guided then those who believe. Or do they have a share in the authority then they would not give the people at date stone. Or do they envy the people for what God has given them out his grace? So for we gave the family of Ibrahim the book, the wisdom, and gave them a great authority. So of them is who believed in it and of them of is who turned away from it, and sufficient is hell as a burning. Indeed those who disbelieve in God's Ayat soon God will enter them the fire, so as often their skins are thoroughly burned, we will change them for other skins, that they taste the chastisement, surely God is Mighty, Wise.  As for those who believe and do good deeds, we will make them enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them for ever, they shall have therein pure mater, and we shall make them enter a dense shade. Verily Allah commands you to make over the trusts to to their owners and that when they judge between people you judge with justice, surely God admonishes you with what is excellent surely God is seeing, Hearing. O You who believe, obey God and obey the Messenger and those who possess the Command/Authority from you, therefore if you differ with regards to a thing, refer it to God and the Messenger if you believe in God and the last day, that is better and most suitable at the end."

We also see emphasis after that all Messengers were sent but to be obeyed by God's permission. This gives the impression it's about the same divine authority.

And then there is one last chance to think about the extent of the authority of the Ulil-Amr. It's ironic right before verse 4:83, Allah reminds people if they can ponder over it's verses.

It can be said the whole Shariah concerns issue of fear and safety, which is why the message is said to be foremost a warning. This is because what it forbids is evil and can corrupt the soul, and bring it to hell, and what it commands is good, and leads to the way of peace and safety. The commands of the Messenger aside from being commands, are warnings of the dangerous path or glad tidings of the path of peace and safety.

Now aside from this, there is also issues in this world of fear and safety, which concern the government in particular. Justice also covers these issues, in how they should be addressed, and so it can be said since justice is commanded by God, then these issues are important to be followed with respect to how the chosen Messenger acts towards these matters.

Now 4:83 in fact states had they referred it to the Messenger and the Ulil-Amr from them, those who can perceive and investigate and find out the matter would of known it.  The matter refers to any matter regarding fear and safety. This comprehensively by definition includes all spiritual dangers, all warnings of God, and all things that bring one safer and away from the fire. It also includes things of public safety and welfare of the political state of the nation.

This shows Ulil-Amr have both spiritual and political authority and are to be referred to, in all matters, not only disputes.`

Notice also the words "had they..." which is hypothetical, instead of commanding to do so. This shows it wasn't necessary that people refer to other then the Messenger for this during his life time, but, had they hypothetically referred to any of the present or future Imams, the result would of been the same, those who can search out the matter and investigate it would of known the truth of the issue regarding fear or safety. 

The argument is as follows.

1. Islam consists of issues regarding safety and fear.

2. Political issues of safety and fear are included, but not the limit of matters of safety and fear given the perspective of the soul, the dangers it faces, and the next world.

3. The Quran shows they ought to refer such matters back to the Messenger.

4. The Ulil-Amr are shown to hold this station as well.

5. Therefore Ulil-Amr hold authority over spiritual and political affairs of this nation, which are all matters of safety and fear.

 

 

 

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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@StrugglingForTheLight let me clarify my question further before we can get to the point. if the followers of Shia Manhaj are claiming Imamah is one of the Pillars of Islam and the one who does not believes in it is not a Muslim and he will enter hellfire. My Question to you is if Imamah is really such a serious matter then how come Allah Subhana watala did not mentioned it directly even in a single verse so that every Muslim could easily understand and believe in it ?

We have multiple verses in The Holy Quran which indicates the necessity of believing and observing the Pillars of Islam but we don`t find even single direct reference to Imamah which is according to Shia clerics a Pillar of Islam and anyone who ignores it or forgets about it will enter hellfire (words of Yaseer Al-Habib), i ask all My Shia brothers & Sisters if they understand the seriousness of this claim ? they are actually making Mass takfir of 1 Billion+ Muslims alive in the world right now who do not believe in Imamah and hundreds of Millions of other Muslims who have passed away from this world without believing in it. 

Now let me show you by the help of some Examples how clearly all 5 pillars of Islam are explained in the Quran for every Muslim to understand and believe in them.

1) The Testimony of Faith (Shahada)

God bears witness that there is no deity save Him, as do the angels and those who possess knowledge. He is the upholder of justice. There is no diety save Him, the Mighty, the Wise One.  (The Holy Quran 3:18)

"You shall worship God and do not associate anything with Him." (The Holy Quran 4:36)

Say: "I (The Messenger [peace be upon him]) am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your God is one God: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner. (The Holy Quran 18:110)

Surely, the religion (i.e. the worship and the obedience) is for Allah only. And those who take others (As protectors and helpers) besides Him (say): "We worship them only that they may bring us near to Allah." Verily, Allah will judge between them concerning that wherein they differ. Truly, Allah guides not him who is a liar, and a disbeliever. (The Holy Quran 39:3)

2) AL-SALAT

"You shall recite what is revealed to you of the book and observe the Salat, for the Salat prohibits vice and evil and the remembrance of God is the most important. God knows what you do." (The Holy Quran 29:45)

Verily, I am Allah. There is no deity save Me; so worship Me alone, and say your prayers in My remembrance. (The Holy Quran 20:14)

 

3) Zakaat (Obligatory Charity)

 who believe in the unseen, observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and from our provisions to them, they give to charity. (The Holy Quran 2:3)

 

We made a covenant with the Children of Israel: "You shall not worship except Allah. You shall honor your parents and regard the relatives, the orphans, and the poor. You shall treat the people amicably. You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat)." But you turned away, except a few of you, and you became averse. (The Holy Quran 2:83)

 

for those who spend, both in prosperity and adversity, who restrain their anger and are forgiving towards their fellow men God loves those who do good works. (The Holy Quran 3:134)

 

We made them (Prophet Ibrahim and his Sons [Peace be upon him all]) leaders who guided people by Our command. We revealed to them the doing of good, observance of prayer and the giving of alms and Us alone did they worship. (The Holy Quran 21:73)

 

4) Fasting

O you who believe, fasting has been prescribed for you, just as it was prescribed for those before you, so that you may guard yourselves against evil. (The Holy Quran 2:183)

 

Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (Between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting, but if any one is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (Should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you; He does not want to put to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful. (The Holy Quran 2:185)

5) Hajj (pilgrimage)

"And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men: they will come to thee on foot and (mounted) on every kind of camel, lean on account of journeys through deep and distant mountain highways; (The Holy Quran 22:27)

And complete the Hajj and 'umrah for Allah. But if you are prevented, then [offer] what can be obtained with ease of sacrificial animals. And do not shave your heads until the sacrificial animal has reached its place of slaughter. And whoever among you is ill or has an ailment of the head [making shaving necessary must offer] a ransom of fasting [three days] or charity or sacrifice. And when you are secure, then whoever performs 'umrah [during the Hajj months] followed by Hajj [offers] what can be obtained with ease of sacrificial animals. And whoever cannot find [or afford such an animal] - then a fast of three days during Hajj and of seven when you have returned [home]. Those are ten complete [days]. This is for those whose family is not in the area of al-Masjid al-haram. And fear Allah and know that Allah is severe in penalty. (The Holy Quran 2:196)

 

Now i presented some of the verses which directly inform us about the 5 pillars and commands us to observe them but nowhere in the Quran we are told about Imamah and commanded to believe in it in order to be Muslims. 

the 2 narrations you posted are very general and The Prophet (peace be upon him) is talking about obedience to the appointed Caliph of the Muslim Ummah, Nowhere did he said you will have to accept and obey a succession of Divinely Guided Imams after me.

As for the passage you posted from the Quran then it`s talking about The Message & Revelation of Prophet Ibrahim and his Sons (peace be upon them) which had to accepted by the people of their time in order for them to be counted among Muslims but those who rejected their message and The Book which was revealed on Prophet Ibrahim then they become disbelievers as a Result and they will enter hellfire on the day of judgment for rejecting Allah`s message.

you`re talking in generalities and about things which are not even connected to Imamah. if you claim it is a Pillar of Islam and belief in it is a Must to be counted among Muslims then you have to present at least 1 verse from The Quran in order to prove it. 

 

 

Edited by Student_of_Deen
spelling correction

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54 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Saying a verse is not clear enough or denying there are any clear verses about Imammate is not proof of anything.

To me, the verses I presented are clear and decisive enough. And I showed why.

but how can Allah subhana watala not tell us about a Pillar of Islam with a clear cut verse ? NOT EVEN 1 AYAH ? According to Shia Islam this is a matter of heaven and hell and you think Allah subhana watal would not reveal a Single Ayah to clarify this directly just like he revealed so many verses to tell us about the other Pillars ?

how exactly does the Verse you posted is enough Evidence as an evidence for the Imamat of 12 Divinely guided Imams ? you`re calling it desicve and enough as a reason but it`s not even indirectly related to the Ahle Bayt (May Allah be pleased with them all)

The Verse is talking about Prophet Ibrahim (peace be upon him) Message and his revelation along with his Sons Message, who were both Prophets of their time. those who disbelieved in their message will enter hellfire because they denied the Prophets of Allah and his message (i.e Islam) to them.

WHAT DOES THIS HAS TO DO WITH THE AHLE BAYT (MAY Allah BE PLEASED WITH THEM ALL) WHEN OBVIOUSLY NONE OF THEM WERE PROPHETS AND MESSENGERS ? 

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It's obvious that Allah [swt] is not reminding us that people turned away from the authority of the family of Ibrahim for nothing. He is doing so in a discussion of 

1. False authorities who put the mantle of purity and representatives of God's religion (misguiding scholars teaching false authorities of mushrikeen are more guided then believers in God.

2. It's stating they have no share of such authority in reality.

3. It then posses the question, or is in reality that they envy humans for what God has given then out of his grace? 

4. In replying to that, it emphasized that the family of Ibrahim was given the book, the wisdom, and a great authority.

5. In then emphasizes that there were those who disbelieved in such authority, and those who believe in such authority, hell for those who turned away from the great authority of the family of Ibrahim.

6. It then emphasizes to accept God's Ayat, for disbelieving them results in hell, and believing them results in paradise.

7. It emphasizes that one of the reasons of revelation is for rule of justice and to judge between people by justice.

8. Then in flow with all this, is says "O you who believe obey God.." showing the whole discussion of the authority of the family of Ibrahim was about authority of God...but who are the envied people compared to them? "and obey the Messenger and those who possess the authority from you..."...

It obviously is about the ONE and THE SAME AUTHORITY. It's in context of the divine authority of the family of Ibrahim.

Yes Imams are not Prophets, but the authority is one and the same with that of Prophets. That is why later in flow to this, a verse after emphasizes that all Messengers were sent to be obeyed by God's permission.

IT's obviously about one and the same authority of that of God and his Messenger.

Furthermore, 4:83 confirms this, in which they have authority over all matters of fear and security. This includes both things that concern political and social fear and security and spiritual fear and security in the spiritual journey and regarding the soul and next world.

 

 

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On 1/3/2016 at 11:52 AM, StrugglingForTheLight said:

The word Astafa is used 12 verses in its different forms. In one verse it occurs twice.

[2:130] [2:132] [2:247] [3:33] [3:42] - twice. [7:144] [22:75] [27:59] [35:32] [37:153] [39:4]

In ALL it's forms it is used at least 13 times, as a verb it is used 12 times as far as I could count.

On 1/3/2016 at 11:52 AM, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Imam is also used 12 times.

[2:124] [9:12] [11:17] [15:79] [17:71] [21:72] [25:74] [28:5] [28:41] [32:23] [36:12] [46:12]

This seems to be correct if you count the plural and single in all its forms, although if you count all words with the same root there is more.

 

On 1/3/2016 at 11:52 AM, StrugglingForTheLight said:

[2:124] [9:12] [11:17] [15:79] [17:71] [21:72] [25:74] [28:5] [28:41] [32:23] [36:12] [46:12]

The word Al-Qurba is used 12 Times in Quran, in 11 verses (it occurs twice in one verse):

If you only count the definite it is twelve, if not then at least 15 times.

On 1/3/2016 at 11:52 AM, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Which has "unseen" in Quran 12 times.

You mean the word ghayb? That seems to be more than 30-50 times although I admit I didn't check them all but at I least checked it for more than 12.

On 1/3/2016 at 11:52 AM, StrugglingForTheLight said:

And that associated with muflihoon, that word muflihoon takes place 12 times in Quran.

That takes place 13 times in its different forms.

 

A few remarks:

- you have to be careful when you collect these data because it can result in a selective approach to find what you are looking for. For example you count imam, al-imam and a'imma in all its different forms but Al-qurba you only count when it's definite to reach the number twelve. Same with muflihoon.

- 12 is a low number so statistically you are bound to find it a few times when you look for it's occurence. If you find the name Ismaeel for example 12 times, but Ibrahim 15 times, Ya'qoub 13 and Daood 11 times for example it isn't statistically significant.

On 1/3/2016 at 11:52 AM, StrugglingForTheLight said:

In the 12th Surah of Quran, ghayb occurs twice, in the story of Yusuf.

Don't even start with the number two, that says little to nothing

- Especially when you claim something aboutr the Quran you have to be careful. I don't say it applies here but I'll add this verse as a reminder:

 
3:7
Sahih International
It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

 

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27 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Furthermore, 4:83 confirms this, in which they have authority over all matters of fear and security. This includes both things that concern political and social fear and security and spiritual fear and security in the spiritual journey and regarding the soul and next world.

you should know that Verse 83 of Surah Nisa was revealed because the hypocrites. they were too quick to spread any news/rumor they heard without verifying it with the Prophet (peace be upon him) or with those in authority after him. 

you are claiming by authority the verse is actually referring to the Ahle Bayt (ra) alone but Sayyidna Hasan, Qatadah and Ibn Abi Laila, (may Allah be pleased with them all), say that this verse refers to Muslim scholars and jurists . Al-Suddi says that it means rulers and officials . After reporting both these statements, Abu Bakr al-Jassas takes a general view and maintains that the expression means both, which is the correct approach, because applies to all of them.

Now just because you are interpreting this verse differently to prove your claim of Imamah being a Pillar, does it mean it becomes obligatory on everyone to follow your interpretation even if others interpretation makes more sense than yours does ? 

38 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

It's obvious that Allah [swt] is not reminding us that people turned away from the authority of the family of Ibrahim for nothing. He is doing so in a discussion of 

1. False authorities who put the mantle of purity and representatives of God's religion (misguiding scholars teaching false authorities of mushrikeen are more guided then believers in God.

2. It's stating they have no share of such authority in reality.

3. It then posses the question, or is in reality that they envy humans for what God has given then out of his grace? 

4. In replying to that, it emphasized that the family of Ibrahim was given the book, the wisdom, and a great authority.

5. In then emphasizes that there were those who disbelieved in such authority, and those who believe in such authority, hell for those who turned away from the great authority of the family of Ibrahim.

6. It then emphasizes to accept God's Ayat, for disbelieving them results in hell, and believing them results in paradise.

7. It emphasizes that one of the reasons of revelation is for rule of justice and to judge between people by justice.

8. Then in flow with all this, is says "O you who believe obey God.." showing the whole discussion of the authority of the family of Ibrahim was about authority of God...but who are the envied people compared to them? "and obey the Messenger and those who possess the authority from you..."...

It obviously is about the ONE and THE SAME AUTHORITY. It's in context of the divine authority of the family of Ibrahim.

Yes Imams are not Prophets, but the authority is one and the same with that of Prophets. That is why later in flow to this, a verse after emphasizes that all Messengers were sent to be obeyed by God's permission.

IT's obviously about one and the same authority of that of God and his Messenger.

 

 

 

A Prophet`s Authority can never be equaled to the Authority of his Ummati after him because a Prophet stays in direct contact with Allah and he can receive revelation and law from Allah while the later cannot. So in that sense the people did not only rejected Prophet Ibrahim (peace be upon him) authority to be their Khalifah but more importantly they rejected the change he brought because of his direct connection and revelation from God. they rejected his Message. his Book, the change he brought due the Message of God (i.e rejections of Babylons Idols and Nimrods claim of Lordship) and lastly his right to be their Khalifah only if they had accepted his Message. which is why they are liable to enter hellfire for their disbelief.So you see the main mistake of the people of Ibrahim (peace be upon him) was to reject his message,Book and his prophet-hood & right to be their religious leader & Khalifah because he was a Prophet of Allah and that is the complete message of this Ayah.

Besides The Sons of Ibrahim (peace be upon them all) are supposed to be the Religious as well as worldly leaders of their people after Ibrahim (peace be upon him) passed away because they were themselves Prophets of Allah in the same era in 2 different lands and i`m sure we all agree that nobody from their Ummati can be a Khalifah when their Prophet is still present among them. therefore their case is totally different from the case of Ahle Bayt (ra) who were not Prophets or Messenger but they were themselves the Ummatis of The Messenger (peace be upon him).

And Even if we did agreed with your interpretation then still why won`t Allah reveal a clear cut Ayah which is free from any Ambiguity so that all the Muslims could understand it easily and thereby be saved from entering hellfire because of ignoring a Pillar of Islam ?

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God being the True Master, his authority cannot be rejected. Prophets have that authority because of proofs from God in forms of miracles as well as divine scriptures, that they are true authorities on behalf of God.

If the Quran however says there is to be people who possess that type of authority from this nation, it would be rational to conclude that somehow God and his Messenger would prove the authority of these people.

An example of Prophet manifesting who God has given his authority to, is in the verses of Talut. Talut was manifested to have been given God's authority by nass of a Nabi among them.

You said Ulil-Amr were scholars. I'm sorry, but when were scholars authorities in the past nations that they should become authorities that must be obeyed in this nation?

If what I'm saying is correct, if my interpretation is correct, then these verses are muhkam proofs of divinely appointed authorities who been given the authority linked to obedience to God like the family of Ibrahim were given.

The whole point is I'm saying, if you reflect on the flow, it's obvious Ulil-Amr have been given the same type of authority of the family of Ibrahim otherwise the flow is deceptive.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

You said Ulil-Amr were scholars. I'm sorry, but when were scholars authorities in the past nations that they should become authorities that must be obeyed in this nation?

5:63
Sahih International

Why do the rabbis and religious scholars not forbid them from saying what is sinful and devouring what is unlawful? How wretched is what they have been practicing.

 

5:44
Sahih International

Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.

 

 

 
3:79
Sahih International
It is not for a human [prophet] that Allah should give him the Scripture and authority and prophethood and then he would say to the people, "Be servants to me rather than Allah ," but [instead, he would say], "Be pious scholars of the Lord because of what you have taught of the Scripture and because of what you have studied."

 

So the ones entrusted with the Scripture and commanded to forbid the people from sin and agression and those who judge are the religious scholars? What other authority are you referring to?

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The Quran commands all of humans to forbid evil and command towards good and in other verses emphasizes on believers doing that to each other. It specially emphasizes on people who people look up to as having knowledge of scripture. 

That said, the verses show the scholars didn't actually forbid evil and command good. In this case, they lead people astray but it's not upon people to follow them.

The verses show the scholars of bani-Israel didn't lead people on the right path like the Prophets were doing. In this case, scholars of bani-Israel being obeyed as opposed to God's representatives (the Prophets) was a tragedy.

The words of Isa show we are all suppose to become learned in religion and convey the teachings of the book to people.  This doesn't mean we all suppose to claim to be authorities that must be obeyed.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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@GreatChineseFall BaarakAllahu Feek for the input as some Ayahs were needed here, Much appreciated.

@StrugglingForTheLight i did not say the Ulil Amr are scholars rather i was just trying to show you the Ummah has varying opinions from the early days about the authority mentioned in this verse.

Again i`m telling you that you cannot make take the example of Prophet Ibrahim and his family (peace be upon them all) and apply it on the family of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon them all) because the family of Ibrahim (AS) was a family of Prophets therefore we are talking about 2 entirely different cases here. 

yes Talut was appointed the king of Bani Israel by Allah subhana watala because he was blessed with knowledge and strength which made him the perfect candidate to lead the Bani Israel in their war against Jalut and his people. but you should not forget Talut was only their king in the worldly aspect. he was not the Khalifah of Allah because Prophet Samuel (peace be upon him) was still among the Bani Israel and he was in-charge of things at-least as long as Prophet Dawood (peace be upon him) became a Nabi and a Khalifah of Allah on earth.

12 hours ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

You said Ulil-Amr were scholars. I'm sorry, but when were scholars authorities in the past nations that they should become authorities that must be obeyed in this nation?

The verse you use to prove your claim itself refutes your argument if you read it carefully. 

O you who believe, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those who have been entrusted with authority among you. If you are in dispute over any matter, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you truly believe in Allah and the Last Day: this is best, and best in the end. (The Holy Quran 4:59)

So this verse itself and many other verses in the Quran proves unconditional obedience is only for Allah and his Messenger (peace be upon him) and other than them nobody deserves unconditional obedience. you can see how beautifully Allah subhana watala constructed this verse by placing Obey in front of Allah and his messenger both but he did not used it for the Authority because unconditional obedience is not for them. 

he also commanded the Muslims to refer back the matter to Allah and his Messenger whenever they are in doubt because they are the ultimate source of guidance which cannot be wrong, whereas the authority can make mistakes and is not infallible or divinely guided.

13 hours ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

If what I'm saying is correct, if my interpretation is correct, then these verses are muhkam proofs of divinely appointed authorities who been given the authority linked to obedience to God like the family of Ibrahim were given.

The whole point is I'm saying, if you reflect on the flow, it's obvious Ulil-Amr have been given the same type of authority of the family of Ibrahim otherwise the flow is deceptive.

I don`t know how can you claim these verses are proofs of divinely appointed authorities when the Ayahs don`t even mentioned anything which points out that the Authority referred in the Ayah is Divinely appointed or Infallible and it must be accepted & obeyed otherwise the people will go out of the fold of Islam. 

i don`t know what do you mean by the flow but i already told you that you cannot use the example of Prophet Ibrahim`s family (peace be upon them all) because his family was a family of Prophets while the Ahle Bayt (May Allah be pleased with them all) were Ummatis of The Prophet (peace be upon him).

12 hours ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

The Quran commands all of humans to forbid evil and command towards good and in other verses emphasizes on believers doing that to each other. It specially emphasizes on people who people look up to as having knowledge of scripture. 

That said, the verses show the scholars didn't actually forbid evil and command good. In this case, they lead people astray but it's not upon people to follow them.

The verses show the scholars of bani-Israel didn't lead people on the right path like the Prophets were doing. In this case, scholars of bani-Israel being obeyed as opposed to God's representatives (the Prophets) was a tragedy.

The words of Isa show we are all suppose to become learned in religion and convey the teachings of the book to people.  This doesn't mean we all suppose to claim to be authorities that must be obeyed.

The Verses clearly show that it was actually the Scholars who were in charge of Religious guidance for the people and not the government or the ruling Authority. 

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On 1/3/2016 at 0:52 AM, StrugglingForTheLight said:

 The word Astafa is used 12 verses in its different forms. In one verse it occurs twice.

[2:130] [2:132] [2:247] [3:33] [3:42] - twice. [7:144] [22:75] [27:59] [35:32] [37:153] [39:4]

Imam is also used 12 times.

[2:124] [9:12] [11:17] [15:79] [17:71] [21:72] [25:74] [28:5] [28:41] [32:23] [36:12] [46:12]

The word Al-Qurba is used 12 Times in Quran, in 11 verses (it occurs twice in one verse):

http://www.holyquran.net/cgi-bin/qsearch.pl?st=%C7%E1%DE%D1%C8%EC&sc=1&sv=1&ec=114&ev=6&ae=a&mw=&alef=ON

Musa and Harun names mentioned in the same verse occurs 12 Times while Harun names occurs 20 times. Suratal Taha where Harun name is mentioned before Musa in "Lord of Harun and Musa" is the 20th Surah while the other two places, Musa is mentioned first.

http://www.holyquran.net/cgi-bin/qsearch.pl?st=%E5%C7%D1%E6%E4&sc=1&sv=1&ec=114&ev=6&ae=&mw=r&alef=ON

Given the promise to Ibrahim about Imammate in his offspring, it is noteworthy to mention as well Ismael name occurs 12 times in Quran:

2:125 2:127 2:133 2:136 2:140 3:84 4:163 6:86 14:39 19:54 21:85 38:48

Verse 12 of Suratal Maeeda reminds of 12 Captains in bani-Israel.

Imam Ali was appointed on the 12th month of the year.

Then you have this topic: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235033793-confirmation-of-ghayba-of-12th-imam/#comment-2872658

Which has "unseen" in Quran 12 times. And that associated with muflihoon, that word muflihoon takes place 12 times in Quran.

In the 12th Surah of Quran, ghayb occurs twice, in the story of Yusuf.

Not saying this means anything. Not saying it doesn't either. Something to reflect about, that's all.

 

Such things has nothing to do with clear verdicts. Esa AS name is mentioned in Quran "Isa (59 times total) as Isa (25 times), 'Al-Masih' (11 times) and Ibn Maryam (23 times)"

But Prophet Mohammad's SAW name is mentioned just for 5 times, 4 times as Mohammad SAW and 1 time as Ahmad. Does this make Esa AS superior?

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_mentioned_by_name_in_the_Quran

 

General list

Prophets

  • Adam (25 times)
  • Al-Yasa' (6:86 and 38:48)
  • Ayub (4:163, 6:84, 21:83, 38:41)
  • Dawud (16 times)
  • Dhul-Kifl (21:85, 38:48)
  • Harun (24 times)
  • Hud (25 times)
  • Ibrahim (69 times)
  • Ismail (12 times)
  • Ilyas (6:85, 37:123 and maybe 37:130)
  • Ishaq (17 times)
  • Isa (59 times total) as Isa (25 times), 'Al-Masih' (11 times) and Ibn Maryam (23 times)
  • Idris (19:56, 21:85)
  • Lut (27 times)
  • Musa (136 times) Moses is the name of the human person mentioned most often in the Qur'an. In common parlance, locals take the full name as Musa-Alaihis-Salaam.
  • Muhammad (4 times: 3:144, 33:40, 47:2, 48:29)
  • Ahmad (61:6) (Muhammad and Ahmad are the same)
  • Nuh (43 times)
  • Saleh (9 times)
  • Shu'ayb (10 times)
  • Sulayman (17 times)
  • Yahya (5 times)
  • Ya'qub (16 times)
  • Isra'il (43 times) Ya'qub and Isra'il are the same.
  • Yusuf (27 times)
  • Yunus (4 times: 4:163, 6:86, 10:98, 37:139)
  • Zakariyya (7 times)

Non Prophets

  • Azar (6:74)
  • Aziz (12:30, 12:51)
  • Al-Samiri (20:85, 20:87, 20:95)
  • Abu Lahab (111:1)
  • Dhul-Qarnayn (18:83, 18:86, 18:94)
  • Fir'aun (74 times)
  • Haman (28:6, 28:8, 28:38, 29:39, 40:24, 40:36)
  • Imran (3:33, 3:35, 66:12)
  • Jalut (2:249, 2:250, 2:251)
  • Maryam (34 times) as the only woman mentioned in the Qur'an by her personal name. (A few scholars (such as Ibn Hazm)[109] see Maryam (Mary) as a Prophet, since God sent her a message via an angel)
  • Luqman (31:12, 31:13, 31:16)
  • Qarun (28:76, 28:79, 29:39, 40:24)
  • Talut (2:247, 2:249)
  • Iblis (11 times) Also 'Shaytan' or the Satan.[1]
  • Uzayr (9:30)
  • Zayd ibn Harithah (33:37)
  • Abdullah

Angels mentioned with name

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Student of the Deen, I feel honestly like I'm talking to a brick wall that is going to just repeat the same old things over and over again. I believe I already addressed all the points you brought already.

I'm not going to go into this endless discussion. There is plenty of verses that prove Ahlulbayt but I believe the problem is a disease Satan had towards Adam is afflicted to people towards Ahlulbayt [as]. 

The Quran is clear and majestic in how it proves Imammate not only to Muslims but to all of humanity. If people can't reflect on it's clear signs, it has nothing to do with the fault of God. If they stick to their illogical reasoning to miss out the clear bright signs, it's not the fault on the Quran.

Allah's [swt] doesn't guide a disbelieving people.

 

 

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I could not stop laughing on how the religious scholars who Quran showed didn't lead people in the right direction have religious authority but Talut who is said to excel in knowledge over the people has none, just political authority.

May God save us from the evil bias of ourselves.

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1 hour ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Student of the Deen, I feel honestly like I'm talking to a brick wall that is going to just repeat the same old things over and over again. I believe I already addressed all the points you brought already.

I'm not going to go into this endless discussion. There is plenty of verses that prove Ahlulbayt but I believe the problem is a disease Satan had towards Adam is afflicted to people towards Ahlulbayt [as]. 

you feel like talking to a brick because you haven`t been able to provide even a single Ayah from the Holy Quran to support your claims and the Mass Takfir of 1 Billion+ Non-Shia Muslims in the world. you believe you already addressed my all the points i brought foward but i can`t how you especially after my last comment to you. 

there is no need for this conversation to be endless. just provide me with 1 verse from the plenty of verses which proves Imamah, that`s all i`m asking you for the claim that Imamat is a Pillar of Islam and those who do not accept it are not Muslims. 

there is no point in vilifying me by suggesting i`m inflicted by a disease towards the Ahlul Bayt (as), Naudhubillah. just provide a single verse which mentions the divinely guided & Infallible Imams even in the previous nations and that will be enough.

 

1 hour ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

The Quran is clear and majestic in how it proves Imammate not only to Muslims but to all of humanity. If people can't reflect on it's clear signs, it has nothing to do with the fault of God. If they stick to their illogical reasoning to miss out the clear bright signs, it's not the fault on the Quran.

Allah's [swt] doesn't guide a disbelieving people.

well i`m asking you again and again where Does the Quran even indirectly tells us that Imamah is a pillar of Islam and belief in them is a Must otherwise a person cannot be a Muslim ? 

you`re saying 90% Muslims today failed to see it ? Besides in early century of the Muslim Ummah there were not even 5% Shi`i Muslims at that time out of the total Muslim population so does that mean more than 95% Muslims got it wrong and they actually died as Non-Muslims ? if that is true then it must be near impossible for the Non-Muslims to understand the Quran because even 95% of all Muslims who ever lived failed to understand it and missed out an entire pillar of their faith. 

Surely Allah Subhana watala does not guide a disbelieving people.

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1 hour ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

I could not stop laughing on how the religious scholars who Quran showed didn't lead people in the right direction have religious authority but Talut who is said to excel in knowledge over the people has none, just political authority.

Did you actually checked the Holy Quran before you burst into Non-Stop Laughter ? i guess not, because you are confusing & mixing 2 different times here.

First let`s see what the Holy Quran says:

Have you not thought about the group of the Children of Israel after (the time of) Musa (Moses)? When they said to a Prophet of theirs, "Appoint for us a king and we will fight in Allah's Way." He said, "Would you then refrain from fighting, if fighting was prescribed for you?" They said, "Why should we not fight in Allah's Way while we have been driven out of our homes and our children (families have been taken as captives)?" But when fighting was ordered for them, they turned away, all except a few of them. And Allah is All-Aware of the Zalimun.

And their Prophet (Samuel ) said to them, "Indeed Allah has appointed Talut (Saul) as a king over you." They said, "How can he be a king over us when we are better fitted than him for the kingdom, and he has not been given enough wealth." He said: "Verily, Allah has chosen him above you and has increased him abundantly in knowledge and bodily strenght. And Allah grants His Kingdom to whom He wills. And Allah is All-Sufficient for His creatures' needs, All-Knower." (The Holy Quran 2:246-247)

These Two Ayah i quoted above is a clear proof there was a Prophet of Allah present among the Children of Israel during the time Talut was appointed their king to help them win against their strong and oppressive enemies. it is obvious No Ummati or ordinary person can be in charge of People`s Religion and Guidance when a Prophet is present among them. So it proves Talut was only their king so the Children of Israel could unite under him and he could use his knowledge,experience and strength to lead them towards victory in war by the will of Allah. 

The Reason Bani Israel objected to Talut`s rule was the he was not wealthy nor a person of high status among them. the leadership was always in the hands of tribe of Levi who was the third Son of Prophet Yacob (Peace be upon him) but Talut was from the lineage of Benjamin which is why they objected agaisnt making him their king. The Amazing thing about these Ayahs tell us the duty of Talut and also why exactly he was chosen over the others to be their king. which is why these 2 Ayahs are very important and should be read carefully.

The Reason Talut was appointed because Bani Israel needed a King to Unite them under 1 banner to fight agaisnt their enemies. 

The Reason Talut was chosen over others was not his family, lineage, occupation, wealth BUT Instead it was his Knowledge, experience, strength which made him the best candidate to lead the Bani Israel at that time. 

 

This shows us Talut`s responsibility and also the reason why he was chosen but now the Scholars of Bani Israel you are talking about are obviously not present at this time in the history of Bani Israel nor they are related to this incident because a Prophet was already among them who is in-charge of their Guidance. Prophet Isa (peace be upon him) was also present among the Bani Israel but the problem was that the people had not accepted him as their Guide and Messiah so those Prophets who were rejected by the Bani Israel and Prophet Samuel (peace be upon him) who is present here are 2 different cases which should not be confused.

 

1 hour ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

May God save us from the evil bias of ourselves.

Aameen.

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Brother Struggling for Light, tell me how does this make sense?

On 1/3/2016 at 0:52 AM, StrugglingForTheLight said:

 The word Astafa is used 12 verses in its different forms. In one verse it occurs twice.

[2:130] [2:132] [2:247] [3:33] [3:42] - twice. [7:144] [22:75] [27:59] [35:32] [37:153] [39:4]

Imam is also used 12 times.

[2:124] [9:12] [11:17] [15:79] [17:71] [21:72] [25:74] [28:5] [28:41] [32:23] [36:12] [46:12]

The word Al-Qurba is used 12 Times in Quran, in 11 verses (it occurs twice in one verse):

http://www.holyquran.net/cgi-bin/qsearch.pl?st=%C7%E1%DE%D1%C8%EC&sc=1&sv=1&ec=114&ev=6&ae=a&mw=&alef=ON

Musa and Harun names mentioned in the same verse occurs 12 Times while Harun names occurs 20 times. Suratal Taha where Harun name is mentioned before Musa in "Lord of Harun and Musa" is the 20th Surah while the other two places, Musa is mentioned first.

http://www.holyquran.net/cgi-bin/qsearch.pl?st=%E5%C7%D1%E6%E4&sc=1&sv=1&ec=114&ev=6&ae=&mw=r&alef=ON

Given the promise to Ibrahim about Imammate in his offspring, it is noteworthy to mention as well Ismael name occurs 12 times in Quran:

2:125 2:127 2:133 2:136 2:140 3:84 4:163 6:86 14:39 19:54 21:85 38:48

Verse 12 of Suratal Maeeda reminds of 12 Captains in bani-Israel.

Imam Ali was appointed on the 12th month of the year.

Then you have this topic: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235033793-confirmation-of-ghayba-of-12th-imam/#comment-2872658

Which has "unseen" in Quran 12 times. And that associated with muflihoon, that word muflihoon takes place 12 times in Quran.

In the 12th Surah of Quran, ghayb occurs twice, in the story of Yusuf.

Not saying this means anything. Not saying it doesn't either. Something to reflect about, that's all.

 

 

5 hours ago, Ramis Khan said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_mentioned_by_name_in_the_Quran

 

General list

Prophets

  • Adam (25 times)
  • Al-Yasa' (6:86 and 38:48)
  • Ayub (4:163, 6:84, 21:83, 38:41)
  • Dawud (16 times)
  • Dhul-Kifl (21:85, 38:48)
  • Harun (24 times)
  • Hud (25 times)
  • Ibrahim (69 times)
  • Ismail (12 times)
  • Ilyas (6:85, 37:123 and maybe 37:130)
  • Ishaq (17 times)
  • Isa (59 times total) as Isa (25 times), 'Al-Masih' (11 times) and Ibn Maryam (23 times)
  • Idris (19:56, 21:85)
  • Lut (27 times)
  • Musa (136 times) Moses is the name of the human person mentioned most often in the Qur'an. In common parlance, locals take the full name as Musa-Alaihis-Salaam.
  • Muhammad (4 times: 3:144, 33:40, 47:2, 48:29)
  • Ahmad (61:6) (Muhammad and Ahmad are the same)
  • Nuh (43 times)
  • Saleh (9 times)
  • Shu'ayb (10 times)
  • Sulayman (17 times)
  • Yahya (5 times)
  • Ya'qub (16 times)
  • Isra'il (43 times) Ya'qub and Isra'il are the same.
  • Yusuf (27 times)
  • Yunus (4 times: 4:163, 6:86, 10:98, 37:139)
  • Zakariyya (7 times)

Non Prophets

  • Azar (6:74)
  • Aziz (12:30, 12:51)
  • Al-Samiri (20:85, 20:87, 20:95)
  • Abu Lahab (111:1)
  • Dhul-Qarnayn (18:83, 18:86, 18:94)
  • Fir'aun (74 times)
  • Haman (28:6, 28:8, 28:38, 29:39, 40:24, 40:36)
  • Imran (3:33, 3:35, 66:12)
  • Jalut (2:249, 2:250, 2:251)
  • Maryam (34 times) as the only woman mentioned in the Qur'an by her personal name. (A few scholars (such as Ibn Hazm)[109] see Maryam (Mary) as a Prophet, since God sent her a message via an angel)
  • Luqman (31:12, 31:13, 31:16)
  • Qarun (28:76, 28:79, 29:39, 40:24)
  • Talut (2:247, 2:249)
  • Iblis (11 times) Also 'Shaytan' or the Satan.[1]
  • Uzayr (9:30)
  • Zayd ibn Harithah (33:37)
  • Abdullah

Angels mentioned with name

Isn't it unfair?

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39 minutes ago, Student_of_Deen said:

you feel like talking to a brick because you haven`t been able to provide even a single Ayah from the Holy Quran to support your claims and the Mass Takfir of 1 Billion+ Non-Shia Muslims in the world. you believe you already addressed my all the points i brought foward but i can`t how you especially after my last comment to you. 

there is no need for this conversation to be endless. just provide me with 1 verse from the plenty of verses which proves Imamah, that`s all i`m asking you for the claim that Imamat is a Pillar of Islam and those who do not accept it are not Muslims. 

there is no point in vilifying me by suggesting i`m inflicted by a disease towards the Ahlul Bayt (as), Naudhubillah. just provide a single verse which mentions the divinely guided & Infallible Imams even in the previous nations and that will be enough.

Bro Student,

First, a Muslim who does not believe in the Imams does not become a kafir. He is legally a Muslim. However, his iman has some very serious problems.

Secondly, I notice that your manhaj is: if it is not explicitly stated in the Qur'an, it is not true or not important. If I am correct, then could you please show me the explicit verses about the punishment in the grave?

Thanks.

 

 

 

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The Qu'ran mentions the 12 leaders from the Children of Israel, yet it mentions nothing of the 12 Imams which are purportedly higher than the previous Prophets (as)?

"Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous." 2:177

Where is the mention of believing in Imams?

"The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination." (2:285)

 

Where is the mention of believing in Imams?

"O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray."(4:136)

Where is the mention of believing in Imams?

"It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding."(3:7)

Where is the mention of believing in Imams?

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...God gives his mulk to who he pleases...

If we translate this as kingdom, it would mean the whole kingdom of God was given to Talut. Whether this is possible or not, it certainly is not on topic of what the Prophet is telling them.

If we translate it as authority, it would mean God's authority was given to Talut.

Now you can come with all sorts of your own opinions, that God would not give his absolute authority to a non-Prophet or what not.

The Prophet also didn't state, "and he gives of his authority to who he pleases"...rather he was stating he has given his authority to who pleases.

Now the question is if all the reasoning that showed Talut should be King, applies to that Prophet at that time (ie. that Prophet was superior in knowledge, that Prophet was chosen above people, that Prophet was superior in body, that Prophet was given the authority of God), then why wasn't that Prophet made king.

It's obvious despite what hadiths may say, either Talut was more of fit for it, in which we see other Prophets like Dawood and Sulaiman also have, or didn't excel in those characteristics necessarily over that of the Prophet at that time, but that he was going to take this position LATER AFTER that Prophet passes away.

Otherwise all the same reasoning showed, shows that the Prophet was King as well. The fact this implies Talut being King was an issue of succession, although Talut had authority and was given God's authority, people were unaware of it.

We also see that God through Talut tests them with a river, and also the believers "were from Talut", showing he was their spiritual leader as well.

Aside from that, we see a sunna of God with respect to his chosen exalted servants. To make one simply King with no religious authority or guiding role, doesn't befit the chosen ones.

All of them are examples to be followed. The very fact that Prophet manifested him as one of God's chosen, shows that Talut is an example to be followed, making him a religious authority.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Bro Student,

First, a Muslim who does not believe in the Imams does not become a kafir. He is legally a Muslim. However, his iman has some very serious problems.

Secondly, I notice that your manhaj is: if it is not explicitly stated in the Qur'an, it is not true or not important. If I am correct, then could you please show me the explicit verses about the punishment in the grave?

Thanks.

 

 

 

The fire; they shall be brought before it (every) morning and evening and on the day when the hour shall come to pass: Make Firon's people enter the severest chastisement. (40:46)

 

And reward

36:26 It was said (to him when the disbelievers killed him): "Enter Paradise." He said: "Would that my people knew!

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