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In the Name of God بسم الله
StrugglingForTheLight

Coincidence? 12 number in Quran.

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4 minutes ago, Student_of_Deen said:

"And you will remember what I am telling you, and my affair I leave it to Allah. Verily, Allah is the All-Seer of (His) slaves." So Allah saved him  (Musa Alayhis Salaam) from the evils that they plotted (against him), while an evil torment encompassed Fir'aun's people.The Fire, they are exposed to it, morning and afternoon, and on the Day when the Hour will be established (it will be said to the angels): "Cause Fir'aun's (Pharaoh) people to enter the severest torment!" (The Holy Quran 40:44-46)
 

No mention of "grave". One may argue that graves do not exist, and that the scenario described in the verse relates only to another world (Barzakh?) outside the grave.

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22 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Or to the envy for what Allah has given them out of his grace? So then indeed we given the family of Ibrahim, the book, and the wisdom, and we gave them a grand authority/kingdom.

So this is the clear cut verse about the Imamate of 12 Imams?

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34 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Can't see "grave" in the two verses.

The fire; they shall be brought before it (every) morning and evening and on the day when the hour shall come to pass: Make Firon's people enter the severest chastisement. (40:46)

36:26 It was said (to him when the disbelievers killed him): "Enter Paradise." He said: "Would that my people knew!

So lets not bury the deads now. Right?

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3 minutes ago, Ramis Khan said:

So lets not bury the deads now. Right?

As I stated, one can interpret those verses as referring to another world, outside of the grave. They do not explicitly prove that inside the graves, people will be punished or treated well.

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2 minutes ago, igotquestions said:

So this is the clear cut verse about the Imamate of 12 Imams?

Sunnis generally interpret the envied humans in that verse to be referring to Mohammad.

The issue with me, is that why didn't it just mention "the Prophets" , "indeed we have sent Prophets before you" or something like that, or just picked a Prophet like Moses or Abraham. The fact that it singled out the family of Ibrahim, implies humans here, shows that similarly they were envying a chosen family which only makes sense to be the family of Mohammad. So they were envying Mohammad and his family, and it's saying, their behavior is illogical and irrational specially given they accept the family of Abraham.

A lot of tafsirs of Sunnis also interpret the "great authority" as kingdom of Dawood and Sulaiman, and not the Wilayah and Imammate of Ibrahim, Ismael, Isaac, and Yaqoub, which I find is distorting it's rightful place.

Now if this verse was stated alone, I would understand if some people didn't see it. And thought perhaps it's just Mohammad despite the logical reasons I just showed that shows it's about Mohammad and his family. However, with emphasis on the ones who turned away from it and of those who believe in it, and punishment and reward with respect to each, then emphasizing, to obey God and obey the Messenger and those who possess the authority from this nation, it leaves no doubt, that it's about the family of Mohammad, and the Rasool and Ulil-Amr are the Ahlulbayt.

I feel it's beyond clear and obvious. I feel it's the case Satan whispers illogical things to keep people from seeing it.

 

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1 hour ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Pillars of Islam are of differing degrees. And as I said, a person who does not believe in Imam is still legally a Muslim. That does not save him from Hellfire though.

Okay, do you believe that anyone who denies the punishment of the grave is a Muslim?

i haven`t studied the rulings of Ithna Asheri Manhaj on the subject denying pillars of Islam for myself. i asked for evidence because i saw some twelver Shia scholars saying if anyone ignores or forgets Imamah then he won`t be excused and he will end up in hellfire.

i believe anyone who denies a Pillar of Islam is not a Muslim because belief in the five pillars of Islam is obligatory. As for Punishment then it depends whether the person if unaware of it or he is denying the verse of the Holy Quran which tells us about the Punishment of the grave.

44 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

No mention of "grave". One may argue that graves do not exist, and that the scenario described in the verse relates only to another world (Barzakh?) outside the grave.

i don`t know why you are putting so much stress on the grave but you should know that if we went by this logic then billions of people whose bodies were cremated will never face the punishment of the grave even if they were sinners because they were not buried in graves. 

the reason we use life in of the grave and Barzakh interchangeably is because in Abrahamic Religions we are supposed to bury our dead and even the Pagans of Arabia had not changed this ruling. however it does not mean in order for the punishment of the grave to take place a person has to be buried otherwise the punishment of the grave is not applicable on him.

The Correct view is that anyone who dies enter the Barzakh, regardless of whether he got buried in a grave or he was cremated or he was eaten by a lion.

Edited by Student_of_Deen
mistakes

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On 1/5/2016 at 9:35 AM, StrugglingForTheLight said:

The Quran commands all of humans to forbid evil and command towards good and in other verses emphasizes on believers doing that to each other. It specially emphasizes on people who people look up to as having knowledge of scripture. 

Yes, but I didn't say the scholars exclusively have authority.

On 1/5/2016 at 9:35 AM, StrugglingForTheLight said:

That said, the verses show the scholars didn't actually forbid evil and command good. In this case, they lead people astray but it's not upon people to follow them.

The verses show the scholars of bani-Israel didn't lead people on the right path like the Prophets were doing. In this case, scholars of bani-Israel being obeyed as opposed to God's representatives (the Prophets) was a tragedy.

Yes, but the point is they should have. If the problem was that people should follow other people who are representatives then such a mention would be expected as the cause of failure not the fact that scholars should order other people to do good and abstain from evil. If I say " Why didn't you feed the cat?" I am implying you should. If it wasn't your job to begin with I wouldn't ask you that question. You completely turned it upside down.

 

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1 hour ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Bro Student,

First, a Muslim who does not believe in the Imams does not become a kafir. He is legally a Muslim. However, his iman has some very serious problems.

What is your opinion about this hadith from AlKafi?

"...Rejecting us(Imams) is rejecting Allah and that is up to the level of paganism and considering things equal to Allah..."

Al-Kafi, Book on Virtue of Knowledge, H 196, Ch. 21, h 9

Does it not mean that one who rejects the shia imams is a kafir and mushrik?

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10 minutes ago, Student_of_Deen said:

i don`t know why you are stressing on grave so much but you should know that if we went by your logic then billions of people whose bodies were cremated will never face the punishment of the grave even if they were sinners because they were not buried in graves. 

 

The Correct view is that anyone who dies enter the Barzakh, regardless of whether he got buried in a grave or he was cremated or he was eaten by a lion and vice versa.

I am actually using your style against you. You asked for an explicit verse on Imamah (which mentions things in great details). So, I am doing the same with the "grave" topic.

So far, you have failed to produce any verse which prove that there is anything to occur in the grave.

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2 minutes ago, Sunnibro said:

What is your opinion about this hadith from AlKafi?

"...Rejecting us(Imams) is rejecting Allah and that is up to the level of paganism and considering things equal to Allah..."

Al-Kafi, Book on Virtue of Knowledge, H 196, Ch. 21, h 9

Does it not mean that one who rejects the shia imams is a kafir and mushrik?

That is the hidden reality of those who reject the Imamah. They are like the munafiq who is legally a Muslim, but really a kafir.

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14 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

Yes, but I didn't say the scholars exclusively have authority.

Yes, but the point is they should have. If the problem was that people should follow other people who are representatives then such a mention would be expected as the cause of failure not the fact that scholars should order other people to do good and abstain from evil. If I say " Why didn't you feed the cat?" I am implying you should. If it wasn't your job to begin with I wouldn't ask you that question. You completely turned it upside down.

 

How can they have authority when for example, Quran talks about many of them taking people's wealth unjustly and hoarding it for themselves?

How can they have authority when Quran talks about them distorting revelations and lying against God and his Messengers?

How can they have authority before Mohammad came, but when Mohammad came, Quran warns not to take them as authorities?

How can they have authority when they rejected God's Prophets and opposed them?

If you want to say, because due to their leadership position (which is different then being an authority on behalf of God but rather that people are following you), God is saying, why if they were good did they not forbid people from evil...is proving they have right to be followed, I'm sorry that doesn't make sense.

And the fact they didn't forbid people from evil, you are saying, they have authority despite that?

Quran advises all humans to forbid the evil and command the good, and it specially emphasizes that duty to believers, and then more so is expected of the ones who learn the religion. However, that is not to say, that they are authorities because of this. That is none sense.

Isa furthermore taught all people should become learned scholars in the religion, does it mean, we all going to have authority that we are to be obeyed and the right of obedience?

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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51 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

I am actually using your style against you. You asked for an explicit verse on Imamah (which mentions things in great details). So, I am doing the same with the "grave" topic.

So far, you have failed to produce any verse which prove that there is anything to occur in the grave.

No you are not using my own style against me rather you are using a childish argument in your defense. I showed you a direct evidence for the life in Barzakh but now you are asking for the word grave otherwise you won`t believe it to be a direct evidence. the people who got buried and the people who didn`t, life in barzakh is applicable on all of them therefore it should fulfill your request. you can`t use childish excuses like it does not mentions the word grave therefore i`m not going to believe it`s a direct evidence. you are failing to understand that in order to prove me wrong by using this argument you are actually asking incomplete answer from the Quran because if Allah had mentioned the word grave then what of those who did not got buried ?

it is your claim that Imamah IS A PILLAR OF ISLAM AND THOSE WHO DENY IT ARE MUNAFIQS then you are supposed to provide at least 1 Ayah to support your claim just like i have provided multiple verses to support the belief in 5 Pillars of Islam. 

but if it is too hard for you to provide even a single direct reference to Imamah then please at-least provide an indirect evidence tell i get back to this thread tomorrow morning In`sha Allah.

As`salamu Alaykum.

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14 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Aside from mentioning names of the Imams, I want you guys to state how would you word the designation of Imammate in Quran so that it is clear and can't be denied?

 

Well, He سبحانه وتعالى could've used the same style of mentioning the others pillars of Islam, such  "كتب عليكم" "البر من آمن بالله" "كل أمن بالله وملائكته" "محمد رسول الله" or something along those lines.

Or He سبحانه وتعالى could've said "والذين اتبعوهم بإحسان" like he does when He orders us to follow the Muhajireen and the Ansar.  It seems very strange to me that a direct order is ignored for your far fetched interpretations.  How come you choose to ignore when Allah directly orders you to follow the Muhajireen and the Ansar, but when it comes to "Ayat at-Tatheer", we have to go through all this "oh its a hijab", "you have to be influenced by Satan to not see it" and those kind of arguments?

Edited by Cyrax

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7 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

So write out what he would say that would be clear enough to you. Write it out.

Don't forget to address my second point as well.

I'm  not going to write it in Arabic, but take for example "The Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allah, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers and the Imams."

Or for example "O you who believe! Believe in Allah, and His Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم), and the Book (the Qur'an) which He has sent down to His Messenger, and the Scripture which He sent down to those before (him) and the Imams; and whosoever disbelieves in Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, His Imams and the Last Day, then indeed he has strayed far away."

Or for example "And the divinely appointed Imams and also those who followed them exactly (in Faith). Allah is well-pleased with them as they are well-pleased with Him. He has prepared for them Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise), to dwell therein forever. That is the supreme success."

Something like that would considered a pillar of faith, something like the Punishment of the Grave is not considered a pillar of faith by any group of Muslims

P.S. notice I didn't ask for details such as the number or the names, we can get those from the Sunnah as that is the role of the Messenger.  I wanted something clear cut that would be called a pillar of Islam; i.e. something that which you don't believe in you are not considered a Muslim, such as the belief in Allah, His Messengers, Books, Heaven, Hell, the obligation of prayer, Zakat, fasting etc

Edited by Cyrax

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Sunnis believe Prophets to be Imams. Why would they not just say this is just another name for Prophets? That God is talking about Prophets? Or why would they not say this means the books and is talking about the books being guides.

As for the word divinely appointed, the word be "mustafayoon". Sunnis can interpret that to mean normal leaders who God made leaders to be followed and chose them, but not that he manifested any of them like he did with the Prophets.

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Sunnis believe Prophets to be Imams. Why would they not just say this is just another name for Prophets? That God is talking about Prophets? Or why would they not say this means the books and is talking about the books being guides.

As for the word divinely appointed, the word be "mustafayoon". Sunnis can interpret that to mean normal leaders who God made leaders to be followed and chose them, but not that he manifested any of them like he did with the Prophets.

 

 

 

No we can't, because there would be a difference between Imam and Prophets if they are in the same context, like the words Islam and Iman are words for the same thing when used individually, but when used together imply different things.

As far as the words "mustafawn" or "mustafoon" (I don't think mustafayoon is an actual plural, but you can correct me on that) then anyone can interpret anything far-fetched (such as your interpretation that Uli Al-Amr are divinely appointed or that "Ayat at-Tatheer" ONLY applies to the Ali, Fatima, al-Hassan and al-Hussayn رضي الله عنهم and the 12 Imams) but to me the verse would be clear cut; especially if we had an explanation of that verse coming from varying different sects as remember the books of Ahl as-Sunnah are filled with people narrating from different sects.  If the interpretations only came from 12ers that contradicted what all the other sects combined on, then yes I would say that is a very unlikely interpretation.

Please address the points I asked about, such as why you ignore Allah directly commanding you to follow the Muhajiroon and the Ansar, why you chose different forms of the words when doing your count, and the whole statistical probability that I can find any word in the Qur'an 10, 11, 12, 13 or 14 times?

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