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In the Name of God بسم الله
StrugglingForTheLight

Coincidence? 12 number in Quran.

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Brother Struggling for Light, tell me how does this make sense?

On 1/3/2016 at 0:52 AM, StrugglingForTheLight said:

 The word Astafa is used 12 verses in its different forms. In one verse it occurs twice.

[2:130] [2:132] [2:247] [3:33] [3:42] - twice. [7:144] [22:75] [27:59] [35:32] [37:153] [39:4]

Imam is also used 12 times.

[2:124] [9:12] [11:17] [15:79] [17:71] [21:72] [25:74] [28:5] [28:41] [32:23] [36:12] [46:12]

The word Al-Qurba is used 12 Times in Quran, in 11 verses (it occurs twice in one verse):

http://www.holyquran.net/cgi-bin/qsearch.pl?st=%C7%E1%DE%D1%C8%EC&sc=1&sv=1&ec=114&ev=6&ae=a&mw=&alef=ON

Musa and Harun names mentioned in the same verse occurs 12 Times while Harun names occurs 20 times. Suratal Taha where Harun name is mentioned before Musa in "Lord of Harun and Musa" is the 20th Surah while the other two places, Musa is mentioned first.

http://www.holyquran.net/cgi-bin/qsearch.pl?st=%E5%C7%D1%E6%E4&sc=1&sv=1&ec=114&ev=6&ae=&mw=r&alef=ON

Given the promise to Ibrahim about Imammate in his offspring, it is noteworthy to mention as well Ismael name occurs 12 times in Quran:

2:125 2:127 2:133 2:136 2:140 3:84 4:163 6:86 14:39 19:54 21:85 38:48

Verse 12 of Suratal Maeeda reminds of 12 Captains in bani-Israel.

Imam Ali was appointed on the 12th month of the year.

Then you have this topic: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235033793-confirmation-of-ghayba-of-12th-imam/#comment-2872658

Which has "unseen" in Quran 12 times. And that associated with muflihoon, that word muflihoon takes place 12 times in Quran.

In the 12th Surah of Quran, ghayb occurs twice, in the story of Yusuf.

Not saying this means anything. Not saying it doesn't either. Something to reflect about, that's all.

 

 

5 hours ago, Ramis Khan said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_mentioned_by_name_in_the_Quran

 

General list

Prophets

  • Adam (25 times)
  • Al-Yasa' (6:86 and 38:48)
  • Ayub (4:163, 6:84, 21:83, 38:41)
  • Dawud (16 times)
  • Dhul-Kifl (21:85, 38:48)
  • Harun (24 times)
  • Hud (25 times)
  • Ibrahim (69 times)
  • Ismail (12 times)
  • Ilyas (6:85, 37:123 and maybe 37:130)
  • Ishaq (17 times)
  • Isa (59 times total) as Isa (25 times), 'Al-Masih' (11 times) and Ibn Maryam (23 times)
  • Idris (19:56, 21:85)
  • Lut (27 times)
  • Musa (136 times) Moses is the name of the human person mentioned most often in the Qur'an. In common parlance, locals take the full name as Musa-Alaihis-Salaam.
  • Muhammad (4 times: 3:144, 33:40, 47:2, 48:29)
  • Ahmad (61:6) (Muhammad and Ahmad are the same)
  • Nuh (43 times)
  • Saleh (9 times)
  • Shu'ayb (10 times)
  • Sulayman (17 times)
  • Yahya (5 times)
  • Ya'qub (16 times)
  • Isra'il (43 times) Ya'qub and Isra'il are the same.
  • Yusuf (27 times)
  • Yunus (4 times: 4:163, 6:86, 10:98, 37:139)
  • Zakariyya (7 times)

Non Prophets

  • Azar (6:74)
  • Aziz (12:30, 12:51)
  • Al-Samiri (20:85, 20:87, 20:95)
  • Abu Lahab (111:1)
  • Dhul-Qarnayn (18:83, 18:86, 18:94)
  • Fir'aun (74 times)
  • Haman (28:6, 28:8, 28:38, 29:39, 40:24, 40:36)
  • Imran (3:33, 3:35, 66:12)
  • Jalut (2:249, 2:250, 2:251)
  • Maryam (34 times) as the only woman mentioned in the Qur'an by her personal name. (A few scholars (such as Ibn Hazm)[109] see Maryam (Mary) as a Prophet, since God sent her a message via an angel)
  • Luqman (31:12, 31:13, 31:16)
  • Qarun (28:76, 28:79, 29:39, 40:24)
  • Talut (2:247, 2:249)
  • Iblis (11 times) Also 'Shaytan' or the Satan.[1]
  • Uzayr (9:30)
  • Zayd ibn Harithah (33:37)
  • Abdullah

Angels mentioned with name

Isn't it unfair?

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39 minutes ago, Student_of_Deen said:

you feel like talking to a brick because you haven`t been able to provide even a single Ayah from the Holy Quran to support your claims and the Mass Takfir of 1 Billion+ Non-Shia Muslims in the world. you believe you already addressed my all the points i brought foward but i can`t how you especially after my last comment to you. 

there is no need for this conversation to be endless. just provide me with 1 verse from the plenty of verses which proves Imamah, that`s all i`m asking you for the claim that Imamat is a Pillar of Islam and those who do not accept it are not Muslims. 

there is no point in vilifying me by suggesting i`m inflicted by a disease towards the Ahlul Bayt (as), Naudhubillah. just provide a single verse which mentions the divinely guided & Infallible Imams even in the previous nations and that will be enough.

Bro Student,

First, a Muslim who does not believe in the Imams does not become a kafir. He is legally a Muslim. However, his iman has some very serious problems.

Secondly, I notice that your manhaj is: if it is not explicitly stated in the Qur'an, it is not true or not important. If I am correct, then could you please show me the explicit verses about the punishment in the grave?

Thanks.

 

 

 

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The Qu'ran mentions the 12 leaders from the Children of Israel, yet it mentions nothing of the 12 Imams which are purportedly higher than the previous Prophets (as)?

"Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous." 2:177

Where is the mention of believing in Imams?

"The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination." (2:285)

 

Where is the mention of believing in Imams?

"O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray."(4:136)

Where is the mention of believing in Imams?

"It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding."(3:7)

Where is the mention of believing in Imams?

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...God gives his mulk to who he pleases...

If we translate this as kingdom, it would mean the whole kingdom of God was given to Talut. Whether this is possible or not, it certainly is not on topic of what the Prophet is telling them.

If we translate it as authority, it would mean God's authority was given to Talut.

Now you can come with all sorts of your own opinions, that God would not give his absolute authority to a non-Prophet or what not.

The Prophet also didn't state, "and he gives of his authority to who he pleases"...rather he was stating he has given his authority to who pleases.

Now the question is if all the reasoning that showed Talut should be King, applies to that Prophet at that time (ie. that Prophet was superior in knowledge, that Prophet was chosen above people, that Prophet was superior in body, that Prophet was given the authority of God), then why wasn't that Prophet made king.

It's obvious despite what hadiths may say, either Talut was more of fit for it, in which we see other Prophets like Dawood and Sulaiman also have, or didn't excel in those characteristics necessarily over that of the Prophet at that time, but that he was going to take this position LATER AFTER that Prophet passes away.

Otherwise all the same reasoning showed, shows that the Prophet was King as well. The fact this implies Talut being King was an issue of succession, although Talut had authority and was given God's authority, people were unaware of it.

We also see that God through Talut tests them with a river, and also the believers "were from Talut", showing he was their spiritual leader as well.

Aside from that, we see a sunna of God with respect to his chosen exalted servants. To make one simply King with no religious authority or guiding role, doesn't befit the chosen ones.

All of them are examples to be followed. The very fact that Prophet manifested him as one of God's chosen, shows that Talut is an example to be followed, making him a religious authority.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Bro Student,

First, a Muslim who does not believe in the Imams does not become a kafir. He is legally a Muslim. However, his iman has some very serious problems.

Secondly, I notice that your manhaj is: if it is not explicitly stated in the Qur'an, it is not true or not important. If I am correct, then could you please show me the explicit verses about the punishment in the grave?

Thanks.

 

 

 

The fire; they shall be brought before it (every) morning and evening and on the day when the hour shall come to pass: Make Firon's people enter the severest chastisement. (40:46)

 

And reward

36:26 It was said (to him when the disbelievers killed him): "Enter Paradise." He said: "Would that my people knew!

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5 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

...God gives his mulk to who he pleases...

If we translate this as kingdom, it would mean the whole kingdom of God was given to Talut. Whether this is possible or not, it certainly is not on topic of what the Prophet is telling them.

If we translate it as authority, it would mean God's authority was given to Talut.

Now you can come with all sorts of your own opinions, that God would not give his absolute authority to a non-Prophet or what not.

The Prophet also didn't state, "and he gives of his authority to who he pleases"...rather he was stating he has given his authority to who pleases.

Now the question is if all the reasoning that showed Talut should be King, applies to that Prophet at that time (ie. that Prophet was superior in knowledge, that Prophet was chosen above people, that Prophet was superior in body, that Prophet was given the authority of God), then why wasn't that Prophet made king.

It's obvious despite what hadiths may say, either Talut was more of fit for it, in which we see other Prophets like Dawood and Sulaiman also have, or didn't excel in those characteristics necessarily over that of the Prophet at that time, but that he was going to take this position LATER AFTER that Prophet passes away.

Otherwise all the same reasoning showed, shows that the Prophet was King as well. The fact this implies Talut being King was an issue of succession, although Talut had authority and was given God's authority, people were unaware of it.

We also see that God through Talut tests them with a river, and also the believers "were from Talut", showing he was their spiritual leader as well.

Aside from that, we see a sunna of God with respect to his chosen exalted servants. To make one simply King with no religious authority or guiding role, doesn't befit the chosen ones.

All of them are examples to be followed. The very fact that Prophet manifested him as one of God's chosen, shows that Talut is an example to be followed, making him a religious authority.

 

 

Did you just say SUNNAH????

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20 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Bro Student,

First, a Muslim who does not believe in the Imams does not become a kafir. He is legally a Muslim. However, his iman has some very serious problems.

Secondly, I notice that your manhaj is: if it is not explicitly stated in the Qur'an, it is not true or not important. If I am correct, then could you please show me the explicit verses about the punishment in the grave?

Thanks.

 

 

 

A person who does not believe in the Imamah, a pillar of the faith according to the Shi'a, is legally Muslim but not a Mu'min according to the most authoritative 12er scholars.

His manhaj, as well as the manhaj of the Muslim Ummah, is that we need explicit proofs for things that are pillars of the religion; such as the five pillars of Islam or the six pillars of Iman.  An issue like punishment of the grave, is secondary, meaning it is not something that a Muslim can make takfeer of another Muslim based on unless that Muslim also believes that the Qur'an or the Sunnah say this, but disbelieves in it anyway.  

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5 minutes ago, Ramis Khan said:

The fire; they shall be brought before it (every) morning and evening and on the day when the hour shall come to pass: Make Firon's people enter the severest chastisement. (40:46)

 

And reward

36:26 It was said (to him when the disbelievers killed him): "Enter Paradise." He said: "Would that my people knew!

Can you spot the word "shall" in your translation?

Anyway, I asked for a single explicit verse. These ones are not explicit. The term "grave" is even missing in both.

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13 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Bro Student,

First, a Muslim who does not believe in the Imams does not become a kafir. He is legally a Muslim. However, his iman has some very serious problems.

Bro Abu Fatimah,

1) Are you sure a person who does not believes in a Pillar of Islam is still a Muslim ? 

15 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Secondly, I notice that your manhaj is: if it is not explicitly stated in the Qur'an, it is not true or not important. If I am correct, then could you please show me the explicit verses about the punishment in the grave?

i request you to please read my comments again before determining my manhaj.
In my Second comment to Brother @StrugglingForTheLight i had clearly stated that the Five Pillars of Islam are backed by various clear cut, direct and easy to understand Verses in the Holy Quran. Nowhere did i said i will only take what is explicitly stated in the Qur`an and ignore everything that is not stated directly. I was asking for direct evidence for the Pillars because believing in them is a Must and it is a Matter of Heaven and Hell and also because Shaykh Yasir Al Habib and various other scholars of Ithna Ahseri Shias say that believing in the pillar of Imamah is a must and ignore or forgetting it will lead a person to hellfire because he cannot be a Muslims without believing in all pillars of Islam. 

thank you.

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3 hours ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Student of the Deen, I feel honestly like I'm talking to a brick wall that is going to just repeat the same old things over and over again. I believe I already addressed all the points you brought already.

I'm not going to go into this endless discussion. There is plenty of verses that prove Ahlulbayt but I believe the problem is a disease Satan had towards Adam is afflicted to people towards Ahlulbayt [as]. 

The Quran is clear and majestic in how it proves Imammate not only to Muslims but to all of humanity. If people can't reflect on it's clear signs, it has nothing to do with the fault of God. If they stick to their illogical reasoning to miss out the clear bright signs, it's not the fault on the Quran.

Allah's [swt] doesn't guide a disbelieving people.

 

 

Your unrestricted takfeer is quite humorous considering that, not only is your argument unclear to "Sunnis", your belief is in general not shared by other 12ers either; especially your view towards scholars.  Therefore, I'm not sure what is so clear when literally everyone else doesn't get what you are saying except you.  But just to remind you, you have not:

1) Explained why we are allowed to disagree with "Uli al-Amr" if they are divinely appointed.

2) Didn't explain why you chose to use different forms of the words to count the words you were looking for.

3) Didn't address the statistical probability that any word in the Qur'an can be found 12 times, or 11 times, or 13 times.

4) Didn't explain what you meant by "flow."  Which I'm going to be honest with you, according to my understanding of what you mean; it is that whatever you preconceive when reading the Qur'an.

There is more, but those I think are the biggest criticisms against your personal interpretation that is not shared by anyone else, "Sunni" or 12er.

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4 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Can you spot the word "shall" in your translation?

Anyway, I asked for a single explicit verse. These ones are not explicit. The term "grave" is even missing in both.

Brother, the punishment is given to soul, not to body. So "grave" in ahadith are metaphoric. Tell me, Hindus don't bury, they burn their deads. Some die in water, some fall from mountains, not buried etc. So where do they get punishment?

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6 minutes ago, Student_of_Deen said:

Bro Abu Fatimah,

1) Are you sure a person who does not believes in a Pillar of Islam is still a Muslim ? 

i request you to please read my comments again before determining my manhaj.
In my Second comment to Brother @StrugglingForTheLight i had clearly stated that the Five Pillars of Islam are backed by various clear cut, direct and easy to understand Verses in the Holy Quran. Nowhere did i said i will only take what is explicitly stated in the Qur`an and ignore everything that is not stated directly. I was asking for direct evidence for the Pillars because believing in them is a Must and it is a Matter of Heaven and Hell and also because Shaykh Yasir Al Habib and various other scholars of Ithna Ahseri Shias say that believing in the pillar of Imamah is a must and ignore or forgetting it will lead a person to hellfire because he cannot be a Muslims without believing in all pillars of Islam. 

thank you.

Pillars of Islam are of differing degrees. And as I said, a person who does not believe in Imam is still legally a Muslim. That does not save him from Hellfire though.

Okay, do you believe that anyone who denies the punishment of the grave is a Muslim?

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4 minutes ago, Ramis Khan said:

Brother, the punishment is given to soul, not to body. So "grave" in ahadith are metaphoric. Tell me, Hindus don't bury, they burn their deads. Some die in water, some fall from mountains, not buried etc. So where do they get punishment?

Still doesn't fulfill my request. I need something like this:

"O you who believe! If you do good deeds, you will be treated well in the grave."

Or something like that.

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10 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Still doesn't fulfill my request. I need something like this:

"O you who believe! If you do good deeds, you will be treated well in the grave."

Or something like that.

So Hindus would not be punished then? Should not we start burning our deads?

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12 minutes ago, Ramis Khan said:

So Hindus would not be punished then? Should not we start burning our deads?

That does not answer the request.

A verse mentioning "grave" and its punishment. That is how you frame your demands on Imamah too. Isn't it?

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5 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

That does not answer the request.

A verse mentioning "grave" and its punishment. That is how you frame your demands on Imamah too. Isn't it?

Sir, the verses I quoted do tell about daily punishment and reward, before Qayamah. Are not they? Don't run away now.

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From Imam Retha (as): “The Honorable the Exalted God gave distinction to the (prophetic) household over other people in the Wise Book.” Al-Ma’mun asked him (s), “Where is that in God’s Book?” Al-Reza (s) told him, “Indeed the Honorable the Exalted God says, ‘Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people. Offspring, one of the other: And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.’ In another place the Honorable the Exalted God says, ‘Or do they envy the people for what God hath given them of his bounty? So then We had given the family of Abraham the Book and Wisdom, and conferred upon them a great mulk.’ He then addressed this effect to the rest of the believers, so he said: O ye who believe Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and those who hold the Authority among you.’ This means those whom God has given them the Book and the Wisdom for which they are envied. Therefore, what is understood from the Honorable the Exalted God’s words, ‘Or do they envy the people for what God hath given them of his grace? So then We had given the family of Abraham the Book and Wisdom, and conferred upon them a great mulk.’ This refers to obeying the Chosen Pure ones.”, so the mulk here refers to the obedience owed to them.

Will be posting more hadiths about the link between 4:54 and 4:59 (ie. the flow).

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7 minutes ago, Ramis Khan said:

Sir, the verses I quoted do tell about daily punishment and reward, before Qayamah. Are not they? Don't run away now.

Can't see "grave" in the two verses.

The fire; they shall be brought before it (every) morning and evening and on the day when the hour shall come to pass: Make Firon's people enter the severest chastisement. (40:46)

36:26 It was said (to him when the disbelievers killed him): "Enter Paradise." He said: "Would that my people knew!
Edited by أبو فاطمة المحمدي

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{ (54) أَمْ يَحْسُدُونَ النّاسَ عَلَى مَا آتَاهُمُ اللهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ }.

Or to the envy for what Allah has given them out of his grace? So then indeed we given the family of Ibrahim, the book, and the wisdom, and we gave them a grand authority/kingdom.

في الكافي والعياشي وغيرهما عنهم عليهم السلام في عدة روايات نحن المحسودون الذي قال الله على ما آتانا الله من الإِمامة.

In Al-Kafi, and Al-Ayashia and others, from them (as) in several sayings, "we are the envied said by Allah for what Allah has given us out of the Leadership"

in Al-kafi and ayashi from Al-Baqir (as) meaning he put among them Messengers, and Prophets and Imams, so how do they confess it for the family of Ibrahim and they deny it in the family of Mohammad blessings and peace be upon them altogether, and the Mulk Atheem (grand authority/kingdom) is that he put in them Imams, whomever obeys them obeys Allah, and whomever disobeys them disobeys, so this is the grand authority.

 

Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad ibn 'Amir al-Ash'ari has narrated from MuAlia ibn Muhammad who has said that al-Hasan ibn Ali al-Washsha' narrated to him from Ahmad ibn ‘A'idh from ibn ’Udhayna from Burayd al-‘Ijli who said that he asked abu Ja'far (a.s.) about the meaning of the following words of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those who possess the authority among you." (4:59). He answered for that . "Have you seen how those who had been given a share of the Book believe in Jibt and Taghut and who say, "The disbelievers are better guided in the way than the believers" (4:51) ‘They say that the leaders of misguidance and those who call people to Hell are better guided in the way than the family Mohammad(as)’ "Allah has condemned them. No one can help one whom Allah has condemned. (4:52) “Do they have a share in the mulk” means Imamat and Khilafat. Even if they did, they would not have given a naqir to the people." (4:53) " People is a reference to us and the word ‘Naqir’ means the seed inside the nutt." "Or do they envy the people for what Allah has given them of His grace?" ‘We are the ones who are envied because of the Imamat that Allah has given us over all creation of Allah.’ "We have given to the family of Abraham the Book, Wisdom, and a great authority (4:54). Allah says that from the descendents of Abraham He has made Messengers, Prophets and Imams. How is it that these people acknowledge the case about the family Abraham(as) but they refuse to accept the (Imamat) for family Muhammad(as)?’ "Some have believed, others have disbelieved and tried to prevent people from believing. For these people, only the intense fire of hell is a sufficient punishment (4:55). We will make those who disbelieve in our Ayat suffer in hell fire. As soon as the fire destroys their skins, We will give them new skins so that they may suffer more of the torment. God is Majestic and All-wise." (4:56)

 

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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10 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Still doesn't fulfill my request. I need something like this:

"O you who believe! If you do good deeds, you will be treated well in the grave."

Or something like that.

 

20 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Can you spot the word "shall" in your translation?

Anyway, I asked for a single explicit verse. These ones are not explicit. The term "grave" is even missing in both.

 

Well brother allow me to fulfill your request In`sha Allah by showing us that the punishment of grave is infact clearly stated in the Holy Qur`an if we read it as a whole. 

"And you will remember what I am telling you, and my affair I leave it to Allah. Verily, Allah is the All-Seer of (His) slaves." So Allah saved him  (Musa Alayhis Salaam) from the evils that they plotted (against him), while an evil torment encompassed Fir'aun's people.The Fire, they are exposed to it, morning and afternoon, and on the Day when the Hour will be established (it will be said to the angels): "Cause Fir'aun's (Pharaoh) people to enter the severest torment!" (The Holy Quran 40:44-46)

it is clear from the above verses that firaun and his people were not saved rather they were inflicted with a torment. they will be exposed to the fire every morning and evening till the day when the day of judgment and on that day they will be finally sent to hell for their crimes. 

Now you said the word grave is not mentioned in the above verses but it is clear to all of us that when the Torment of Allah finally encompassed firaun then he actually drowned and died and it is supported by verses in other Places of the Holy Qur`an. the question if firaun and his people are already dead but they are not in hell yet still they are being punished every morning and evening while the world grave is not present in these verse ? 

Let`s look at another verse from the Holy Qur`an which tells about the life between this wordily life and the afterlife which everyone will live after the resurrection.

Until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "My Lord, send me back In order that I may work righteousness in the things I neglected. By no means! it is a (mere) word that he is saying; and before them (those who have passed away) is a barrier until the day they are raised.Then, when the Trumpet is blown, there will be no kinship among them that Day, nor will they ask of one another.

Now this is the explicit Ayah in Surah Al-Muminun which tells about the life in Barzakh or the Life in the grave. then many Surahs after this, in Surah Ghafir we are told about the punishment of Firaun and his people in the Barzakh which is a direct clear evidence for the Punishment of the Grave as mentioned in the Holy Qur`an.

 

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