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StrugglingForTheLight

Coincidence? 12 number in Quran.

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10 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Anyone can dispute anything. For example, one can dispute the verse of saying that Mohammad is the last of the Prophets to mean is the seal of their journey.

The thing is God is testing our sincerity. With sincerity to the truth, the Quran is beyond clear that there are chosen ones to be followed after Mohammad.

This is a clear muhkam verse, it's up to you if you want to reject it.

Another factor in all this is the knots that dark forces implant upon the hearts that keep people from properly digesting what God is saying in the Quran.

"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Apostle of God, and the Seal of the Prophets: and God has full knowledge of all things.  (The Noble Quran, 33:40)"

there is no person on earth who could believe The Prophet (Peace be upon him) is not the last Messenger of God after reading this verse, unless he has a wiring problem in his head.  Translator Abdullah Yusuf Ali commented on it in the footnotes  "When a document is sealed, it is complete, and there can be no further addition.  The Holy Prophet Muhammad closed the long line of Messengers.  Allah's teaching is and will always be continuous, but there has been and will be no Prophet after Muhammad.  The later ages will want thinkers and reformers, not Prophets.  This is not an arbitrary matter.  It is a decree full of knowledge and wisdom, 'for Allah has full knowledge of all things.'"

if you were pointing towards Qadiyanis then it is incorrect because No doubt Qadiyanis are the stupidest people on earth when it comes to Religion but still they are not that stupid my friend. they don`t straightforwardly deny this verse, rather they say The Prophet (Peace be upon him) is indeed the last Messenger and the seal of the Prophets BUT their Kazzaab Prophet Mirza Qadiyani was actually the return/second coming of Jesus (Peace be upon him), Naudhubillah.

Indeed God is testing our sincerity but how can he test it based on something which the vast majority fails to see even after his revelations may times throughout their lives ? 

you believe Imamah to be a pillar of Islam and for that reason you must have read the Holy Qu`ran plenty of times with the intention of finding something which is related to it, in order to justify your belief in it. But what about someone who never heard of the Pillar of Imamah ? how would that person figure it out for himself that this is a pillar of Islam and belief in it is a must otherwise i will fall outside the scope of Islam ? 

the Pillars of Islam starting from Belief in Allah, Prayer, fasting, Zakah and Hajj can be found in various places in the Holy Qu`ran based on which a person can determine that belief & acting upon them is a must and denial of them would be the denial of the Holy Qu`ran which will disqualify them to be a Muslim. But how would he do the same in the case of Imamah when it is not mentioned in the Qu`ran to be a pillar of Islam, not even once ?

 

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8 minutes ago, igotquestions said:

There is nothing in the Qur'an about the fairly tale belief of the Imamate of 12 Imams. 

Most of the Surahs are about the philosophy of Imammate, but it as Quran says, no one but the possessors of understanding remember.

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21 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Most of the Surahs are about the philosophy of Imammate, but it as Quran says, no one but the possessors of understanding remember.

Can you provide a verse which tells the Muslim Ummah to believe in the Imamate of 12 Imams?

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I've provided plenty of evidence already. Take for example the verses 4:52-4:59 are clear by flow that it's emphasizing on grace and authority of people who is analogous to the family of Ibrahim. Not only that there is emphasis on to disbelieve in God's Ayat with respect to the emphasis of those who turned away from the authority of the family of Ibrahim were in hell, and in that context we are told to obey God.

 

I can paraphrase the Quran in saying:

There is a people who claim purity for themselves who have been given a portion of the book but they do so while misguiding people by supporting the Jibt and Taghut over those who believe. Do they have any share of the authority or is it rather they envy the people who God has graced?While surely the family of Ibrahim has been given the wisdom, the book, and a great authority. So some people believed in that authority and some turned away from that authority and sufficient is hell as a burning. Indeed those who disbelieve in God's Ayat will be in hell while those who believe and do good will be in paradise. God has entrusted you to give the trust to their owners and that if you judge between people, to do so by justice. O You who believe, Obey God and Obey the Messenger and those who possess the Authority from you so that if you dispute regarding a matter, you refer it back to God and the Messenger if you believe in God and the last day, this is better for you and  best in ending.

 

It's as if Allah is saying, do they have the share of the authority? No it's rather up to Allah to give. And he indeed has given the family of the Ibrahim such authority, so why do you envy these people who God graced while accepting similar grace and way of God in the past? Surely hell awaits those who reject such authority while paradise awaits those who believe in God's Ayat and do good. O you who believe, don't be like those who rejected authority of the family of Ibrahim, but rather obey God and obey the MEssenger and those who possess the authority from you including that if you dispute in a thing refer it to God and the Messenger if you truly believe in God and the last day.

 

Anyone with an ounce of fear of Allah, can see why Allah [swt] is emphasizing on hell of those who turned away from the authority of the family of Ibrahim with respected to the people graced and envied for that grace, and the emphasis to obey God and emphasis to obey the MEssenger and Ulil-Amr from us.

It's beyond clear.

Other verses are clear as well.

But the issue is the hearts for some reason have hatred inspired by dark forces towards the family of Mohammad that they are allergic to accepting them in the Quran.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

In my view, nothing keeps people from seeing them in Quran but a hatred towards them inspired by Satan. 

This hatred makes some people deny everything that is clear no matter how clear it is.

i don`t think you should accuse Muslims of hating the Ahle Bayt (ra) just because they do not believe Imamah to be a Pillar of Islam. you do realize you are talking about around 90% of Muslims here ?

55 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Btw- Baha'Allah interpreted the verse of Seal of Prophets in the fashion that he is the end of their journey.

yeah but i didn`t mentioned him because Bahaiullah and his follower never claimed to be Muslims. BTW did he ever claimed to believe in the whole Qu`ran in its entirety ? that Kazzaab even called himself a reincarnate of God, Naudhubillah. 

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2 minutes ago, Student_of_Deen said:

i don`t think you should accuse Muslims of hating the Ahle Bayt (ra) just because they do not believe Imamah to be a Pillar of Islam. you do realize you are talking about around 90% of Muslims here ?

Some people are ignorant and they are excused. But a lot of people despite being shown how they are in Quran and Sunnah, have hostility towards their chosen status and envy them due to the love of their own sect and it's leaders.

However had anyone came with a love towards seeing the truth regarding this matter with sincerity, I believe the Quran would guide them toward Imammate. 

I believe Satan inspires hatred towards their chosen status on ignorant and knowing a like. However, the real hatred is when people know their chosen status and deny it. Before that it's more of a hostility for love of their own sect.

 

 

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i think we should rest this thread here because there is no clear-cut conclusive evidence for the belief in the Pillar of Imamah. it is understood that you will stick with your interpretation and i will stick with the interpretation of Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaah, so i don`t think there is any point in taking this conversation further. 

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Just now, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Some people are ignorant and they are excused. But a lot of people despite being shown how they are in Quran and Sunnah, have hostility towards their chosen status and envy them due to the love of their own sect and it's leaders.

However had anyone came with a love towards seeing the truth regarding this matter with sincerity, I believe the Quran would guide them toward Imammate. 

I believe Satan inspires hatred towards their chosen status on ignorant and knowing a like. However, the real hatred is when people know their chosen status and deny it. Before that it's more of a hostility for love of their own sect.

 

 

your view cannot be true brother. how can you possibly think Satan managed to fool 90% of the Muslims around the world and also the Majority of Muslims from the start into omitting a pillar of Islam without which there Faith cannot be complete ? Sure it`s possible for Satan to fool the majority but to take out a Pillar altogether ? i can`t possibly believe this because it`s like saying that 90% Muslims are dishonest even with the very foundation of their Faith. 

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You can put it at a rest, whatever helps you sleep at night, on the day of Qiyamah, what is inside the hearts would be revealed. That's fine with me, to me one interpretation is following the clear signs of the book and giving respect to God's word, while the other is following unclear conjecture with respect to it, and is inspired by Satan. And the fact there is a clear decisive way to interpret the Quran correctly is to me clear.

For example, there is 11 other verses about chosen ones and even Mohammad's nickname is Al-Mustafa. 

There is a verse while manifesting the likes of Dawood and Sulaiman and the knowledge they been given, emphasizes "peace be upon the servants he has chosen".

Then the Quran says "Then we inherited the book to those who we chosen from our servants".

With how similar styles of how Surahs emphasize on God's chosen ones, it's obvious here it's meant the type of special servants of God who God makes the means towards him. 

It's emphasizing on them, because, God wants us to remember them. 

Here the verse "then we inherited the book to who we chosen from our servants" is about emphasizing a long with book of God, there are chosen ones who know it and are to guide the humanity after Mohammad [pbuh&hf]

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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18 minutes ago, Student_of_Deen said:

your view cannot be true brother. how can you possibly think Satan managed to fool 90% of the Muslims around the world and also the Majority of Muslims from the start into omitting a pillar of Islam without which there Faith cannot be complete ? Sure it`s possible for Satan to fool the majority but to take out a Pillar altogether ? i can`t possibly believe this because it`s like saying that 90% Muslims are dishonest even with the very foundation of their Faith. 

لَقَدْ أَخَذْنَا مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهِمْ رُسُلًا ۖ كُلَّمَا جَاءَهُمْ رَسُولٌ بِمَا لَا تَهْوَىٰ أَنْفُسُهُمْ فَرِيقًا كَذَّبُوا وَفَرِيقًا يَقْتُلُونَ {70}

[Shakir 5:70] Certainly We made a covenant with the children of Israel and We sent to them messengers; whenever there came to them an messenger with what that their souls did not desire, some (of them) did they call liars and some they slew.
[Pickthal 5:70] We made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We sent unto them messengers. As often as a messenger came unto them with that which their souls desired not (they became rebellious). Some (of them) they denied and some they slew.
[Yusufali 5:70] We took the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent them messengers, every time, there came to them a messenger with what they themselves desired not - some (of these) they called impostors, and some they (go so far as to) slay.

وَحَسِبُوا أَلَّا تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ فَعَمُوا وَصَمُّوا ثُمَّ تَابَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِمْ ثُمَّ عَمُوا وَصَمُّوا كَثِيرٌ مِنْهُمْ ۚ وَاللَّهُ بَصِيرٌ بِمَا يَعْمَلُونَ {71}

[Shakir 5:71] And they thought that there would be no affliction, so they became blind and deaf; then Allah turned to them mercifully, but many of them became blind and deaf; and Allah is well seeing what they do.
[Pickthal 5:71] They thought no harm would come of it, so they were wilfully blind and deaf. And afterward Allah turned (in mercy) toward them. Now (even after that) are many of them wilfully blind and deaf. Allah is Seer of what they do.
[Yusufali 5:71] They thought there would be no trial (or punishment); so they became blind and deaf; yet Allah (in mercy) turned to them; yet again many of them became blind and deaf. But Allah sees well all that they do.

 

It wasn't a decree this umma follows the way of Bani-Israel in their disobedience, these warnings were so they don't follow them and avoid their path, and rather to stick to the rope of God. 

However it so happened, that this umma also failed. And as such the warnings of Quran became inherited to them.

Remember Bani-Israel accepted Musa but denied those who followed his foot steps in leading the nation. 

 

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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14 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

You can put it at a rest, whatever helps you sleep at night, on the day of Qiyamah, what is inside the hearts would be revealed. That's fine with me, to me one interpretation is following the clear signs of the book and giving respect to God's word, while the other is following unclear conjecture with respect to it, and is inspired by Satan. And the fact there is a clear decisive way to interpret the Quran correctly is to me clear.

For example, there is 11 other verses about chosen ones and even Mohammad's nickname is Al-Mustafa. 

There is a verse while manifesting the likes of Dawood and Sulaiman and the knowledge they been given, emphasizes "peace be upon the servants he has chosen".

Then the Quran says "Then we inherited the book to those who we chosen from our servants".

With how similar styles of how Surahs emphasize on God's chosen ones, it's obvious here it's meant the type of special servants of God who God makes the means towards him. 

It's emphasizing on them, because, God wants us to remember them. 

Here the verse "then we inherited the book to who we chosen from our servants" is about emphasizing a long with book of God, there are chosen ones who know it and are to guide the humanity after Mohammad [pbuh&hf]

Brother it is not incumbent upon me to follow your interpretation even if it goes agaisnt all logic & common sense. every time the word Chosen appears in the Qu`ran you automatically use it to justify your belief in the 12 Infallible even though you know very well Allah is talking about his Chosen servants i.e the Prophets & Messengers.

you are making Mass Takfir of the vast majority of the Muslims Ummah solely based on your interpretation of the Holy Qu`ran. i`m sure there are many Shia Muslims in the world who would disagree with your interpretation & opinions, let alone other Muslims.

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10 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:
لَقَدْ أَخَذْنَا مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهِمْ رُسُلًا ۖ كُلَّمَا جَاءَهُمْ رَسُولٌ بِمَا لَا تَهْوَىٰ أَنْفُسُهُمْ فَرِيقًا كَذَّبُوا وَفَرِيقًا يَقْتُلُونَ {70}

[Shakir 5:70] Certainly We made a covenant with the children of Israel and We sent to them messengers; whenever there came to them an messenger with what that their souls did not desire, some (of them) did they call liars and some they slew.
[Pickthal 5:70] We made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We sent unto them messengers. As often as a messenger came unto them with that which their souls desired not (they became rebellious). Some (of them) they denied and some they slew.
[Yusufali 5:70] We took the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent them messengers, every time, there came to them a messenger with what they themselves desired not - some (of these) they called impostors, and some they (go so far as to) slay.

وَحَسِبُوا أَلَّا تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ فَعَمُوا وَصَمُّوا ثُمَّ تَابَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِمْ ثُمَّ عَمُوا وَصَمُّوا كَثِيرٌ مِنْهُمْ ۚ وَاللَّهُ بَصِيرٌ بِمَا يَعْمَلُونَ {71}

[Shakir 5:71] And they thought that there would be no affliction, so they became blind and deaf; then Allah turned to them mercifully, but many of them became blind and deaf; and Allah is well seeing what they do.
[Pickthal 5:71] They thought no harm would come of it, so they were wilfully blind and deaf. And afterward Allah turned (in mercy) toward them. Now (even after that) are many of them wilfully blind and deaf. Allah is Seer of what they do.
[Yusufali 5:71] They thought there would be no trial (or punishment); so they became blind and deaf; yet Allah (in mercy) turned to them; yet again many of them became blind and deaf. But Allah sees well all that they do.

what does these 2 Verses have to do with us Muslims ? Do you know of any Muslim group in the world which denies any Prophet/Messenger of the past ?

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First the same logic that God uses to show there were Prophets in the past and Messengers, he uses to show there are chosen ones to continue to guide humanity after the seal of the Prophets.

Second of all, in Suratal Fatir, there is a distinction between scriptures and the book. The book is given to all Prophets, they all have knowledge of it.

They didn't inherit the book after it was revealed to Mohammad. This is surely referring to the family of Mohammad.

This is what I mean, if someone wants to be obtuse, they can be obtuse and deny everything. Yet to those who are in search of the truth, the Quran and Imammate of Ahlulbayt go together. 

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3 minutes ago, Student_of_Deen said:

what does these 2 Verses have to do with us Muslims ? Do you know of any Muslim group in the world which denies any Prophet/Messenger of the past ?

The reason denying a Prophet or Messenger is wrong is due to their capacity as Ayatallah. "Indeed they don't deny you but rather then unjust deny the Ayatallah".

It's because their authority is linked to God. Yes the revelation they bring is a clear indication of God's speaking and ought to be respected more then their own words, but essentially, denying them is due to them being representatives of God.

So denying Mohammad while accepting Musa means you are not submitting to God, and it does no avail to believe in Messengers in general, but deny one of them who was sent after clear proofs are manifested to the person.

The same is true of Guides and Imams. Denying any of them is like denying them all, which makes it like denying all Messengers.

The other issue is blind belief is never encouraged in Islam. And the way the Quran is written, is that it proves Prophethood in a way that it automatically proves Imammate.

The way it discusses the proof for Prophethood, it automatically proves Imammate.

The importance is to see continuance of God's way, otherwise, we are no different then Jews, who don't see God's continuing way today but accept it in a general sense in the past.

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Student_of_Deen said:

what does these 2 Verses have to do with us Muslims ? Do you know of any Muslim group in the world which denies any Prophet/Messenger of the past ?

Brother don't worry. All he can do is provide unclear verses and he has to write a thesis to prove his belief in Imamate from the Qur'an. This just shows his deviancy. 

 

It reminds me of this Verse:

 

"It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding."(3:7)

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Yes you guys also remind me of that verse as well, that despite clear signs in Quran towards the guidance, you stick to the unclear from it due to leaders you have no proof of their authority but follow them dogmatically, while twist and turn every time presented clear evidence of chosen leaders from God which most of Quran is devoted to proving to humanity.

There surely comes a clear light from Quran, that clear light is the family of Mohammad and their Wilayah, and there comes darkness, and that darkness is unclear conjecture with respect to the interpretation of Quran, and that is what those who with hearts of deviation follow.

 

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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17 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

First the same logic that God uses to show there were Prophets in the past and Messengers, he uses to show there are chosen ones to continue to guide humanity after the seal of the Prophets.

Second of all, in Suratal Fatir, there is a distinction between scriptures and the book. The book is given to all Prophets, they all have knowledge of it.

They didn't inherit the book after it was revealed to Mohammad. This is surely referring to the family of Mohammad.

This is what I mean, if someone wants to be obtuse, they can be obtuse and deny everything. Yet to those who are in search of the truth, the Quran and Imammate of Ahlulbayt go together. 

if you are so confident about your interpretation than you are free to believe in it because it`s your life after all and only you will be held accountable for it. only time will tell who is being obtuse in life.

Edited by Student_of_Deen

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