Sitting at a table which people are drinking alcohol

[Ali-F]

This rulling: (Sayed al-Sistani (h.a.)

2643. To eat at a table at which people are drinking alcohol is haraam and similarly, to sit at that table where people are drinking alcohol is haraam, as a precaution, if one would be reckoned among them.

 

So, what my question is that: From above fatwa I read that it's haraam to sit (not eat) with people who're drinking alcohol IF ONE WOULD BE RECKONED AMONG THEM.

That "if" makes me wonder. If one wouldn't be reckoned among them, would it then be halal? 

Wa alaykum al salam.

[alisayyed]

WS.

9 minutes ago, Ali-F said:

If one wouldn't be reckoned among them, would it then be halal? 

That is what is being said. 

You will need to make yourself 'not reckoned' as one of the consumers. Maybe grow a flowing beard/wear a T-shirt printed with- 'I am not one of them'.

On a serious note, If I would be in your place and I have to sit with them due to some exigency, I would physically sit slightly away from them and order a non-alcoholic drink, like a large fruit juice etc., so that if someone were to see me, they would not reckon me as one of the consumers of alcohol.

[Sumayyeh]

^This topic is actually pretty relevant given the situation of Muslims living in the west. Unfortunately, the office culture many times dictates that there will be drinks--and we're not talking about the club and getting drunk. Just at the office itself, where people just socializing after hours. 

A lot of us may be in situations where we don't even want to be near that stuff, but want to socialize so they don't think we're social outcasts.  

Just play the religious card is all I can think of...they're usually understanding

 

[Muslimthought97]

Salam i live in a house for Uni with drinkers when i can i leave and go to my room however i would sit away or on my phone pretend ur not part of the group, again it is 'haram' but sometimes for example if your at a meeting or something loosing your job may not seem worth it, its down to your own judgement of the situation and what your options are

[narsis]

5 hours ago, Ali-F said:

IF ONE WOULD BE RECKONED AMONG THEM

Bismillah.

Salaam.

It means that if other people see him among them and reckon him as alcohol-drinker, in this case it is Haraam.

[Ali-F]

11 hours ago, narsis said:

Bismillah.

Salaam.

It means that if other people see him among them and reckon him as alcohol-drinker, in this case it is Haraam.

And if other people don't reckon him as alcohol drinker, then that would be halal?

[mostafaa]

This query is taken from the Arabic version of Ayatullah Sistani's website:

السؤال: هل يجوز للمسلم أن یحضرفي المجالس التي تقدم فيها الخمور؟

.الجواب: الأكل والشرب في تلك المجالس محرّم ، وأما مجرد الحضور فحرمته تبتني على الإحتياط اللزومي. ولا بأس به لغرض النهي عن المنكر ، إذا كان متمكناً منه.

To eat at a table where alcohol is served is Haram but to sit there not drinking anything is haram as a necessary precaution. But if he's able to prevent them from their bad deeds then it's Halal.

You see in this verdict he didn't say "to be reckoned among them".

[Ali-F]

Thanks for that, the English translation may have changed it, I guess.

I guess I have to find something out, it's an obligatory trip, and they will obviously drink alcohol. La hawla wala quwaatta illa billah. 

[Ali-F]

I asked Sistani.org about this:

 

if I find this difficult what should I do? Can I sit at the table, but the people KNOW that I am a Muslim believer?

Answer: It is not permissble to sit except for when not sitting with them will put you in a problem or trouble which is not normally bearable.

 

Now. I wonder what: "except for when not sitting with them will put you in a problem or trouble which is not normally bearable" means? If I say: "Well, they may look upon me in a weird way, and think I'm weird - is that an excuse? Or if I say: "Well, they MAY (only may) leave me, and dont be my friends - what about that? 

thx

 

[Ali-F]

On 29/12/2015 at 2:52 PM, mostafaa said:

This query is taken from the Arabic version of Ayatullah Sistani's website:

السؤال: هل يجوز للمسلم أن یحضرفي المجالس التي تقدم فيها الخمور؟

.الجواب: الأكل والشرب في تلك المجالس محرّم ، وأما مجرد الحضور فحرمته تبتني على الإحتياط اللزومي. ولا بأس به لغرض النهي عن المنكر ، إذا كان متمكناً منه.

To eat at a table where alcohol is served is Haram but to sit there not drinking anything is haram as a necessary precaution. But if he's able to prevent them from their bad deeds then it's Halal.

You see in this verdict he didn't say "to be reckoned among them".

And brother: Do we have ulama' who says that it is not an obligatory precaution to sit there? I.e. that it is allowed to just sit there?

 

AND question two: When its said that its haraam on a PRECAUTION, does that mean if you perform the action, would it then be haraam? Because its a precaution so it may be halal, and thus a person can say: "Well, I dont know its haraam, it was only haraam on a PRECAUTION" thank u akhi

[mostafaa]

18 hours ago, Ali-F said:

Answer: It is not permissble to sit except for when not sitting with them will put you in a problem or trouble which is not normally bearable.

Now. I wonder what: "except for when not sitting with them will put you in a problem or trouble which is not normally bearable" means? If I say: "Well, they may look upon me in a weird way, and think I'm weird - is that an excuse? Or if I say: "Well, they MAY (only may) leave me, and dont be my friends - what about that? 

thx

 

They meant by that exception: if it leads to a kind of situation in which you meet serious problems in your life; For example you may get fired from your job and you're not able to easily find another one. Something that directly affects on your financial status -for example- that isn't usually bearable. (like the given example).

But weird sight of people -including our friends- and the like don't permit us to do something intrinsically haraam.

Edited March 9, 2016 by mostafaa

[mostafaa]

18 hours ago, Ali-F said:

And brother: Do we have ulama' who says that it is not an obligatory precaution to sit there? I.e. that it is allowed to just sit there?

 

AND question two: When its said that its haraam on a PRECAUTION, does that mean if you perform the action, would it then be haraam? Because its a precaution so it may be halal, and thus a person can say: "Well, I dont know its haraam, it was only haraam on a PRECAUTION" thank u akhi

Regarding first question I'll search later on and let you know, even though I don't think anyone permits. 

But for the second question: As you know there are two kinds of precaution: obligatory precaution(احتیاط واجب، لزومی) and recommended one (احتياط مستحب): When an act is haraam as an obligatory precaution you're permitted to refer to another marja' but if you don't refer you're obliged to act according to precaution. 

That is because obligatory precaution means a marja' didn't find sensible reasons proving each side of a fatwa and has doubted all proofs, which means he has also doubted reasons proving permission as to do the act. therefore he issued an obligatory precaution which lets you refer to a marja who feels certain about the given proofs. 

[Ali-F]

19 minutes ago, mostafaa said:

But for the second question: As you know there are two kinds of precaution: obligatory precaution(احتیاط واجب، لزومی) and recommended one (احتياط مستحب): When an act is haraam as an obligatory precaution you're permitted to refer to another marja' but if you don't refer you're obliged to act according to precaution. 

That is because obligatory precaution means a marja' didn't find sensible reasons proving each side of a fatwa and has doubted all proofs, which means he has also doubted reasons proving permission as to do the act. therefore he issued an obligatory precaution which lets you refer to a marja who feels certain about the given proofs. 

Yes, brother, but that's the question. Would that count for a sin? Because its not known if its haram or not?

[mostafaa]

21 hours ago, Ali-F said:

Yes, brother, but that's the question. Would that count for a sin? Because its not known if its haram or not?

No, That's not a legitimate excuse; because you know you're obliged to act according to either of them- your marja's precautionary fatwa or another marja's verdict- so you're not justified to ignore both.

[Ali-F]

On 9/3/2016 at 3:18 PM, mostafaa said:

Regarding first question I'll search later on and let you know, even though I don't think anyone permits. 

 

1

 

Salam brother

Have you perhaps found any scholars who permits SITTING at such table?

[mostafaa]

Salam Alaykum brother

No, as far as I have searched I didn't find a marja' who allows you to sit there. (I have seen almost all well-known marjas.)