Sects are destroying my mind.

[DGTW]

First of all, I'd like to say I'm new here and this is my first ever post. (Unfortunately), I'm not very religious, I've deviated and I decided today's a good day as any to try and turn things around Insha'Allah :).

One thing that really bothers me having been born into a shia family, is the hate and criticism we shias get from all other sects. All of them have various hadiths (72/73 sects will go to hell and only one to heaven --> I know who narrated this btw but its still annoying) and such supposedly directed toward shias which denounce them. And its so confusing, especially for someone like me who does not have all the knowledge that helps affirm even have iman. I mean, these people are saying things like shias are kaffir, shias will go to hell etc. It's scary and makes me wonder if I'm on the right path. Majority of Muslims are sunni, so it makes me think that if all these Muslims are sunni then there has to be some kind of weight or reason behind that doctrine for the majority of the Ummah to be based upon it. I'm sure for some of you, who's knowledge and faith is better than mine, this makes me seem very stupid and unclever, which I'd agree with (but I'll fix it :)). Actually, I was just watching one of those short lectures on youtube with those speakers on black magic and there was a video playing with people who were preparing for the invocation of the shaitaan, it involved a man dressed in red whipping himself, and the speaker says, "Who does that remind you of(?)" and I could hear the people in the lecture sniggering. What bothers me is not the whipping thing, I know why people do it (I personally do not agree with it but anyways) I was bothered by how Shias are some kind of joke and public laughing stock.

Can someone please explain and convince why shias will not be going to hell and they are not kaffirs? Why so many Muslims are Sunni? Why Shias are made fun of? Please can you give Hadiths as well.

Thanks in advance,

[Hameedeh]

Shias are in the minority because they have been persecuted from the time of the Prophet SA. Consider the following quote from Chapter 7 of the book The Hidden Truth about Karbala.

http://www.al-islam.org/the-hidden-truth-about-karbala-ak-ahmed

Agha S.N. Mirza writes:“The sources of information on all questions in Islam are three; the Qur’an, the Hadith or the Sunna, and History. There is no dispute about the provisions of the Holy Qur’an; the dispute arises only in respect of its interpretation, and it is the interpretation of the Qur’an alone that all the numerous sects, said to be seventy-three in number, appeal as the basis of their cult. All traditions are, of course, traced to the Prophet (S), and the interpretation put on the different verses of the Qur’an by the Prophet (S) are known only through the Hadith. Thus, so far as disputed questions in Islam are concerned, the source of their solution or information are two; Hadith and History.”1

Having gained the throne, the second phase of the conspiracy was set in motion. The first Caliph, instead of collecting, collating, and propagating the Hadith, reiterated the words of Umar and declared that the Qur’an alone was sufficient guidance for Muslims.

As the first measure, he strictly prohibited the narration, recording, or relying upon the Prophet’s words and deeds- collectively called the Sunna or Hadith. Ath-Thahabi records that Abu Bakr said, “Do not relate among yourselves the traditions of the Prophet (S). Traditions are likely to cause differences of opinion. The differences will be more serious after us. I warn you against narrating any sayings of the Prophet (S). If anyone inquires about what the Prophet (S) said in regard to any matter, tell him that the Book of God is sufficient for all purposes.”2Abu Bakr is also reported to have burnt a book containing a collection of the sayings of the Prophet (S) declaring that the traditions are irrelevant, redundant, and unnecessary as Muslims had the Qur’an for their guidance.3

[Bakir]

Two out of three questions you've made are rather of social and political nature instead of religious or spiritual one. These two, even though extremely important topics, are to be studied from their respective fields and not so much the religious one (using narrations as sources). Because probably, if you are going to debate on this topic, each side will bring their own justifications.

I can only recommend you neutral non-biased authors that have studied these topics. I'm currently reading Mircea Eliade and greatly recommend him. His collection (History of Religions) in this topic is very large, but I'm sure you will be able to priorize and search for the chapter you are looking for. Both parties have probably made use of political tools.

[anonymike]

Brother I am a sunni technically, i dont like putting a name to it, trust me just because you are shia you are not kaffir. Study the Quran and learn what makes a person a kaffir. In my opinion the shia are closer to the straight (coming from a sunni). Just because the majority may seem right doesnt necessarily mean they are, that can be a logical fallacy. Learn about both sides and more importantly, since you are shia, learn the history of both, study the tafsir of both, learn qurayshi arabic from both and always make the Quran the furqan, the standard, the criteria. I hope this helps, make dua brother, I am still searching some things about shia I dont like, but the most important thing about shia, that the sunni also believe the mahdi. The shia have way more information regarding him... so sit tight and study my brother I love all of the shia...

 

 

[StrugglingForTheLight]

Salam

Two threads that might be of your interest: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235032113-a-journey-to-ahlulbayt-in-the-sunnah/

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235030307-a-journey-to-ahlulbayt-in-quran/

 

[Zarla]

Salam and welcome to SC.

One of your concerns seems to be that the majority of Muslims are Sunnis and not shia, therefore, they might be upon the right?

Quote

وَإِن تُطِعْ أَكْثَرَ مَن فِي الْأَرْضِ يُضِلُّوكَ عَن سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ إِن يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلَّا الظَّنَّ وَإِنْ هُمْ إِلَّا يَخْرُصُونَ

And if you obey most of those on earth, they will mislead you far away from Allah’s path. They follow nothing but conjecture, and they do nothing but lie. (6:116)

حَتَّى إِذَا جَاء أَمْرُنَا وَفَارَ التَّنُّورُ قُلْنَا احْمِلْ فِيهَا مِن كُلٍّ زَوْجَيْنِ اثْنَيْنِ وَأَهْلَكَ إِلاَّ مَن سَبَقَ عَلَيْهِ الْقَوْلُ وَمَنْ آمَنَ وَمَا آمَنَ مَعَهُ إِلاَّ قَلِيلٌ

[so it was], until our command came and the oven overflowed, We said, "Load upon the ship of each [creature] two mates and your family, except those about whom the word has preceded, and [include] whoever has believed." But none had believed with him, except a few. (11:40)

Therefore, being part of the majority is not a proof of being right.

You say that receiving hate and criticism for being a Shia bothers you and makes you wonder whether you are on the right path. What about the Prophet (PBUH)? Did he not receive hate and criticism? Yet he was the epitome of perfection. Whether right or wrong, people are people and they will always find something to criticize. Besides, you don't want to rely on people's opinions of you to judge whether you are right, do you?

One thing you should know is that no one can clear your doubts and convince you other than yourself. After all, even if anyone gives you reasonable answers, it will be you in the end, who will decide whether to accept the answers.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Zarla

[S.M.H.A.]

“Whenever he stood for prayers in the Sacred Mosque (in Mecca), they would send four chiefs of the armies of the Quraysh, belonging to the Banī ᶜAbd al-Dār. Two would stand whistling on his right and the other two would stand clapping their hands on his left. They would do this to torture him and disturb him in his prayer.2

 

One day he was on his way to the Mosque when they threw dust on his head. Sometimes they would throw the intestines of a goat on him while he was prostrating in prayer. His daughter would come, remove them and wipe it off him.3

 

After the death of his uncle, his helper, Abū Ṭālib, the Quraysh increased their tribulations and torture. Hence, in those dangerous circumstances the Prophet (S) proposed to the tribe of Thaqīf in Ṭā’if to shelter him for allowing him to preach the message of his Lord. They, however, refused. They derided him and confronted him with their insane 1 Tafsīr al-Qummī: vol. 2, pp 228, under the explanation of verse 4 of chapter 38. 2 Majmaᶜ al-Bayān: vol. 4, pp 463, under the explanation of verse 35 of chapter 8. 3 Tafsīr al-ᶜAyyāshī: vol. 2, pp 54, ḥadīth no. 43, under the explanation of verse 54 of chapter 3. 87 men and slaves. They made two rows for him in the street. When the Messenger of Allāh (S) passed through the rows, they did not allow him to place his feet or lift them; rather, they stoned him. They continued stoning him until his feet started to bleed. He thus passed through their rows, with his feet bleeding. Then he took shelter in one of their gardens. He sat under the shadow of a grape plant while he was in pain and his feet were bleeding. ᶜUtbah ibn Rabīᶜah and Shībah ibn Rabīᶜah were in a house. When they saw his state, even they felt ashamed at themselves for the enmity of Allāh and His Messenger. Thus, they sent him some grapes with a Christian slave, called ᶜAddās, who was from Naynawā. When he came to him, the Messenger of Allāh (S) asked him: Which land do you belong to? He replied, “I am from the inhabitants of Naynawā.” He (S) said: From the land of the servant of Allāh, Yūnus ibn Mutā? ᶜAddās asked him, “Where do you know Yūnus ibn Mutā?” Thus, he (S) replied: I am the Messenger of Allāh and Allāh, the Exalted, informed me of the news of Yūnus ibn Mutā. When he informed ᶜAddās of what Allāh had revealed to him about Jonas [Yūnus], he fell in prostration to Allāh and in showing reverence to the Messenger of Allāh. He started to kiss the feet of the holy Prophet (S) when they were still bleeding.1

 

They tortured his companions with various forms of torture. Amongst these was the casting of Bilāl under the heat of the sun. They would place a heavy rock on his chest and would demand him to disbelieve. However, he would reject them by saying, “He Alone.”2 They tortured the elderly lady, Sumayya, the mother of ‘Ammār, to turn her back from her religion and to disbelieve. When she did not, they killed her.3 Because of all these tortures, in certain circumstances, some of his companions asked him to pray against his people.

 

He (S) would reply: Indeed, I have been sent as a mercy for the worlds;4 and he would pray for his people: O Allāh, guide my people, for they do not know.5

 

Page 86

http://wahidkhorasani.com/Data/Books/Usul%20al-Din(1).pdf

Principles of Faith (Usūl al-Dīn) By Ayatullah al-ᶜUẓmā Shaykh Ḥusayn Vaḥīd Khorasānī

[Hameedeh]

^ S.M.H.A. is correct, all these tortures happened in the early days of Islam, but the persecution of Shias came later, after the event of Ghadir, after the death of the Holy Prophet SA. 

[Sumerian]

The Shi'a also have their own version 73 sect hadith.

Quote

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنِ ابْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنْ جَمِيلِ بْنِ صَالِحٍ عَنْ أَبِي خَالِدٍ الْكَابُلِيِّ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ ع قَالَ «ضَرَبَ اللَّهُ مَثَلًا رَجُلًا فِيهِ شُرَكاءُ مُتَشاكِسُونَ وَ رَجُلًا سَلَماً لِرَجُلٍ هَلْ يَسْتَوِيانِ مَثَلًا» (الزمر -: 29 -)

قَالَ أَمَّا الَّذِي فِيهِ شُرَكَاءُ مُتَشَاكِسُونَ فَلِأَنَّ الْأَوَّلَ يَجْمَعُ الْمُتَفَرِّقُونَ وَلَايَتَهُ وَ هُمْ فِي ذَلِكَ يَلْعَنُ بَعْضُهُمْ بَعْضاً وَ يَبْرَأُ بَعْضُهُمْ مِنْ بَعْضٍ فَأَمَّا رَجُلٌ سَلَمُ رَجُلٍ فَإِنَّهُ الْأَوَّلُ حَقّاً وَ شِيعَتُهُ

ثُمَّ قَالَ إِنَّ الْيَهُودَ تَفَرَّقُوا مِنْ بَعْدِ مُوسَى ع عَلَى إِحْدَى وَ سَبْعِينَ فِرْقَةً مِنْهَا فِرْقَةٌ فِي الْجَنَّةِ وَ سَبْعُونَ فِرْقَةً فِي النَّارِ 

وَ تَفَرَّقَتِ النَّصَارَى بَعْدَ عِيسَى ع عَلَى اثْنَتَيْنِ وَ سَبْعِينَ فِرْقَةً فِرْقَةٌ مِنْهَا فِي الْجَنَّةِ وَ إِحْدَى وَ سَبْعُونَ فِي النَّارِ 

وَ تَفَرَّقَتْ هَذِهِ الْأُمَّةُ بَعْدَ نَبِيِّهَا ص عَلَى ثَلَاثٍ وَ سَبْعِينَ فِرْقَةً اثْنَتَانِ وَ سَبْعُونَ فِرْقَةً فِي النَّارِ وَ فِرْقَةٌ فِي الْجَنَّةِ وَ مِنَ الثَّلَاثِ وَ سَبْعِينَ فِرْقَةً ثَلَاثَ عَشْرَةَ فِرْقَةً تَنْتَحِلُ وَلَايَتَنَا وَ مَوَدَّتَنَا اثْنَتَا عَشْرَةَ فِرْقَةً مِنْهَا فِي النَّارِ وَ فِرْقَةٌ فِي الْجَنَّةِ وَ سِتُّونَ فِرْقَةً مِنْ سَائِرِ النَّاسِ فِي النَّارِ

From Aboo Khaalid Al-Kaabulee (Kankar) from Abee Ja`far(عليه السلام): He said: (asked about the words) «God tells a parable in which there is a company of quarrelsome people and only one of them is well disciplined. Can they be considered as equal? » (39:39).

He (عليه السلام) said: «The quarrelsome ones» are because the first ones gather the different ones in his leadership and they did la`nah (curse) and did bara’a (disassociate) from each other. «The well disciplined man» is the first in the matters of his right as well as his Shee`ahs (followers).

Then He (عليه السلام) said: “The Jews after Moosa (عليه السلام)separated into 71 sects of which one is in Jannah (i.e. Heaven) and the (remaining) 70 sects are in the fire (i.e. Hell).

And the Christians after `Eesa (عليه السلام) separated into 72 sects of which one sect is in Jannah and the (remaining) 71 (sects) are in the fire.

And this Ummah after the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)separated into 73 sects and 72 sects are in the fire and one sect is in Jannah and from the 73 sects, 13 of the sects plagiarize/impersonate friendship and wilayah of us (the Imaams), and 12 sects from it are in the fire, and one sect is in Jannah, and the (remaining) 60 sects from the rest of the people are in the fire”

Source:

1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 8, pg. 224, hadeeth # 283

 

Grading:

1.     Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good) in Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 26, pg. 153

2.     Al-Haadee Al-Najafee said this hadeeth has a Mu`tabar (Valid/Esteemed) Isnaad in Mawsoo`ah aHaadeeth, vol. 8, pg. 399

http://www.revivingalislam.com/2010/12/73-sects-of-islam.html?m=1

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2015 by The Batman

[mightymask]

5 hours ago, DGTW said:

First of all, I'd like to say I'm new here and this is my first ever post. (Unfortunately), I'm not very religious, I've deviated and I decided today's a good day as any to try and turn things around Insha'Allah :).

One thing that really bothers me having been born into a shia family, is the hate and criticism we shias get from all other sects. All of them have various hadiths (72/73 sects will go to hell and only one to heaven --> I know who narrated this btw but its still annoying) and such supposedly directed toward shias which denounce them. And its so confusing, especially for someone like me who does not have all the knowledge that helps affirm even have iman. I mean, these people are saying things like shias are kaffir, shias will go to hell etc. It's scary and makes me wonder if I'm on the right path. Majority of Muslims are sunni, so it makes me think that if all these Muslims are sunni then there has to be some kind of weight or reason behind that doctrine for the majority of the Ummah to be based upon it. I'm sure for some of you, who's knowledge and faith is better than mine, this makes me seem very stupid and unclever, which I'd agree with (but I'll fix it :)). Actually, I was just watching one of those short lectures on youtube with those speakers on black magic and there was a video playing with people who were preparing for the invocation of the shaitaan, it involved a man dressed in red whipping himself, and the speaker says, "Who does that remind you of(?)" and I could hear the people in the lecture sniggering. What bothers me is not the whipping thing, I know why people do it (I personally do not agree with it but anyways) I was bothered by how Shias are some kind of joke and public laughing stock.

Can someone please explain and convince why shias will not be going to hell and they are not kaffirs? Why so many Muslims are Sunni? Why Shias are made fun of? Please can you give Hadiths as well.

Thanks in advance,

Selams

Brother or sister. If you were to study any science right now, there would be much that doesnt make sense f you dont know anything about it, there would be much you doubt and dont accept as truth until you understand its background , its middle its beginning and its end, thoroughly. 

You obviously need to get educated on the topic so that you dont easily get influenced but what those outside are saying, right now everything that seems to be bothering you is based on what you dont know, and the questions your asking are not one line answer sentences, you obviously need to learn about Ahlul Bayt, the Quran, our History , and other topics such as the differences between Shia and other sects , because really nobody can just tell you "believe it is true" as that would be contrary to the idea of knowledge 

My Question to you is where have you been the past years of your life? How come you never went to lectures at mosques? How come you never read any books? Do you pray the shia way?

Obviously you need to study the religion, you need to get yourself a few books, and read them on these topics , if you expect somebody to just tell you "No we are the right ones, just believe us, and thats it" then well what are you basing your faith upon? You need to "know the truth so that you can identify its people"

A good book i would recommend to start on is called "Then i was guided" and the two books that follow it "Black Thursday" and the other which i cant remember its name , which can explain the basis of Shia beliefs based on hadiths and facts an knowledge, and can answer all the questions your asking us now, so that when you get asked those questions, you can answer them yourself

 Your faith shouldnt be hanging by the skin of your teeth, where if somebody says something you suddenly fall apart and crumble and get lost and confused and scared that you are worried about what you believe in. Besides you CANT appreaciate the Ahlul Bayt without knowing them, you cant just do what somebody tells you to believe in, because that isnt belief but just a blind following. 

[أبو فاطمة المحمدي]

5 hours ago, DGTW said:

One thing that really bothers me having been born into a shia family, is the hate and criticism we shias get from all other sects. All of them have various hadiths (72/73 sects will go to hell and only one to heaven

There truly are reliable Sunni and Shi'i reports which indicate that the Ummah would be divided into 73 sects, all of whom would end up in Hellfire except one. However, Hadith al-Thaqalayn (which is authentic in both Sunni and Shi'i books) clearly indicates that the saved sect is that one which follows the Holy Qur'an and the Ahl al-Bayt, 'alaihim al-salam. That naturally rules out all the Sunni sects.

Secondly, Sunnis are NOT a single sect, as they like to portray themselves. There are Sufis, Salafis, Deobandis, Barelvis, Hanafis, Malikis, Shafi'is, Hanbalis and others among them, each sect with its own unique doctrines and rules of jurisprudence. In fact, "Allah" as conceived by Sufis (i.e without a body, present everywhere) is completely different from "Allah" as conceived by Salafis (with a body, not present everywhere, only residing above the heavens). Both Sufis and Salafis worship different Allahs, even though both sides are called Sunnis.

[DGTW]

5 hours ago, mightymask said:

Selams

Brother or sister. If you were to study any science right now, there would be much that doesnt make sense f you dont know anything about it, there would be much you doubt and dont accept as truth until you understand its background , its middle its beginning and its end, thoroughly. 

You obviously need to get educated on the topic so that you dont easily get influenced but what those outside are saying, right now everything that seems to be bothering you is based on what you dont know, and the questions your asking are not one line answer sentences, you obviously need to learn about Ahlul Bayt, the Quran, our History , and other topics such as the differences between Shia and other sects , because really nobody can just tell you "believe it is true" as that would be contrary to the idea of knowledge 

My Question to you is where have you been the past years of your life? How come you never went to lectures at mosques? How come you never read any books? Do you pray the shia way?

Obviously you need to study the religion, you need to get yourself a few books, and read them on these topics , if you expect somebody to just tell you "No we are the right ones, just believe us, and thats it" then well what are you basing your faith upon? You need to "know the truth so that you can identify its people"

A good book i would recommend to start on is called "Then i was guided" and the two books that follow it "Black Thursday" and the other which i cant remember its name , which can explain the basis of Shia beliefs based on hadiths and facts an knowledge, and can answer all the questions your asking us now, so that when you get asked those questions, you can answer them yourself

 Your faith shouldnt be hanging by the skin of your teeth, where if somebody says something you suddenly fall apart and crumble and get lost and confused and scared that you are worried about what you believe in. Besides you CANT appreaciate the Ahlul Bayt without knowing them, you cant just do what somebody tells you to believe in, because that isnt belief but just a blind following. 

I agree. I had said I wasn't very knowledgeable on this topic. I probably should've mentioned I'm 15 as well. I used to pray 5 times a day, yes the shia way. I attended mosque (albeit not for many individual lectures) but for the obvious reasons i.e muharram, eid and I went to a shia mosque's madressa when I was younger too. Not the most impressive I admit but I want to know more about my religion, starting with this.

Thank you for the books you mentioned, I'll try and see if I can get them in some way or another.

That being said, I agree with you saying my faith needs to be stronger, and so I want to fix it.

[DGTW]

Thank you everybody for your replies. Let's me know here's a place I can come for some help.

[Bukhari8k]

11 hours ago, hameedeh said:

Having gained the throne, the second phase of the conspiracy was set in motion. The first Caliph, instead of collecting, collating, and propagating the Hadith, reiterated the words of Umar and declared that the Qur’an alone was sufficient guidance for Muslims.

As the first measure, he strictly prohibited the narration, recording, or relying upon the Prophet’s words and deeds- collectively called the Sunna or Hadith. Ath-Thahabi records that Abu Bakr said, “Do not relate among yourselves the traditions of the Prophet (S). Traditions are likely to cause differences of opinion. The differences will be more serious after us. I warn you against narrating any sayings of the Prophet (S). If anyone inquires about what the Prophet (S) said in regard to any matter, tell him that the Book of God is sufficient for all purposes.”2Abu Bakr is also reported to have burnt a book containing a collection of the sayings of the Prophet (S) declaring that the traditions are irrelevant, redundant, and unnecessary as Muslims had the Qur’an for their guidance.3

Abu Bakr (ra) during his short caliphate (2 years approx) was not even willing to assemble the Quran in a bookish form... the reason was that he wanted to keep the things as were in the time of Rasool Allah (saw). Prophet (saw) himself did not order to write all his sayings neither did he (saw) ask to assemble ayahs in a book form. Quranic ayahs was either saved in memories or written on scattared objects. Later on, when many huffaz got martyred that Umar (ra) convinced Abu Bakr (ra) to asseble Quran and to have a complete set of ayahs at one place and Abu Bakr (ra) did just that. It is also said that he did not support writing of ahadith before assembling of Quranic ayahs so that people do not confuse ahadith with the scattered quranic verses (written on shoulder bones, palm fibre, likhaf, and other parchments). And this was only logical and supported by another hadith: 

al-Muslim reported a hadith from Abu Sa'id al-Khudri that Rasool Allah (SAW) said: ‘Do not write down anything from me, whosoever writes anything I have said other than the Qur'an let him erase it'.

The book you mentioned is a history book written in the 6th AH and we would need to look at a primary source in order to know what he actually said and meant as he himself used the sayings of Prophet (saw) on many occasions.

A tradition in al-Bukhari has been narrated by Zayd b. Thabit. He said: Abu Bakr sent for me when the Muslims were slain in the battle of Yamama. [When I entered, I found] 'Umar b. al-Khaattab with him. Abu Bakr said, "'Umar came to me and said, 'Casualties were heavy among Qur'an reciters during the battle of Yamama, and I am afraid that heavier casualties might take place among the reciters in other battles, whereby much of the Qur'an would be lost. I am of the opinion that you should order the collection of the Qur'an [in book form]."' I asked 'Umar, "How dare I do something the Messenger of God did not do?" 'Umar replied, "This, by God, is a good thing [to do]." 'Umar kept urging me until God opened my chest for that and I came to view the matter as he did. Zayd said that Abu Bakr said [to him]: "You are a wise young man and we trust you. You used to record the revelation for the Messenger of God. So go and find [all the fragments of] the Qur'an and put them together."

Edited December 26, 2015 by Bukhari8k

[Zarla]

@Bukhari8k Just wanted to quote Ayatullah Mutahhari  in Imamat and Khilafat (Chapter 7) here:

Quote

Umar disallowed the writing of traditions (Ahadith). This is a historical fact, not a story invented by any hostile Shi'ah. It is admitted by the European Orientalists also who are neither the Shi'ah nor the Sunnis. Even the most sympathetic Orientalists say that Umar disallowed the writing of traditions because of his fear that tradition would divert the attention of the people from the Qur'an, which he wanted to be the sole source of law. This is definitely a historical fact and not an allegation of the Shi'ites. During the days of Umar nobody could venture to write a Prophetic tradition and show his writing to others. Oral transmission of traditions was of course allowed. This situation continued till the time of Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz, who became Caliph in 99 A.H. and died in 101 A.H. He issued instructions that Prophetic traditions should be collected and put down in writing. Thus he changed Umar's policy. It is to be noted that immediately following Umar ibn Abdul Aziz's instructions those who were so far transmitting Prophetic traditions orally, undertook the work of writing them, but in the meanwhile a part of them had already been lost.

 

Edited December 26, 2015 by Zarla

[Skanderbeg]

Salam, 

I came from catholicism to various branches in sunnism (from sufism to salafism) to shi'sm and believe me. Sense has nothin to do with the major number of supporters of some religion or branch.

Second of all, many religions and their branches only survived or became the main ones for political reasons or better said because they became state religions and because of the conquests of those states. Christianity for example is the religion with most followers after Islam but that actually means nothing.

Third of all, the claims that you will go to hell because you are a shia muslim are as baseless as your fears. Many people are just parotting and form their conclusions on hearsay and rumors from those who are hostile towards Shia Islam. A Zionist for example will never tell you how pitiful the Palestinians are. Instead, he'll just kick them into the ground wether it's wrong or not.

Counter your fears with knowledge. Read the Quran, use your reason and try to find out how God works. 
Then you study the diffirences of Sunni and Shia Islam, not the irrelevant matters but the diffirences in their fundaments. 

After that it should be clear which path is the right path.

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[S.M.H.A.]

 

Abu Sa'id Khudri reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said:

Do not take down anything from me, and he who took down anything from me except the Qur'an, he should efface that and narrate from me, for there is no harm in it and he who attributed any falsehood to me-and Hammam said: I think he also said:" deliberately" -he should in fact find his abode in the Hell-Fire.

[1]

-----

 

".......One day Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) stood up to deliver a Khutbah at a watering place known as Khumm between Makkah and Al-Madinah. He praised Allah, extolled Him and delivered the Khutbah and exhorted (us) and said, 'Amma Ba'du (now then)! O people, certainly I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Rubb and I, in response to Allah's Call, but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it.' He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said, 'The second are the members of my household, I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family."'

[2]

 

Based on responses of some Muslims Book of Allah was not written/compiled during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad [pbuhahp] and Sunnah was not written during or for a long time after.

 

So, the tradition which is the most common and preached during the Friday Address, and many Muslims scholars echo and emphasize in their regular speeches and books,  that the Prophet Muhammad [pbuhahp] left the Book of Allah and the Sunnah, is it Valid?

 

How do Muslims validate the saying of the Second Caliph, that the Book of Allah is enough for us, when Muslims do not even believe that it existed in a Book form?

[3]

 

In both Hadiths [2] & [3], Book of Allah is mentioned. But some Muslims say it was compiled later.

 

According to one interpretation, Book of Allah nor the Sunnah was recorded

According to second interpretation, Book of Allah was present but Sunnah was not recorded.

 

To say, I am leaving the Book of Allah and my Sunnah, would be inviting confusion and disagreements, as we saw regarding Fadak. Do you think, Allah created confusion and is to be blamed for all that have transpired after the Prophet[pbuhahp] till present ?

 

We Muslims have created many confusions and it all goes back to the where the buck stops- the ultimate source, and we have created doubts.

 

The difference in Furu-e-Deen[Islamic Acts, Prayer, Hajj, Fasting, Zakat ….], or our actions at the burial place of the Prophet[pbuhahp] and Imam[as] or Azadari….these are secondary issues, but since we do not want to discuss the primary issues world focus on these, easy to talk about and blame others as Kafir.

 

Primary issue is the Fundamental of Faith [Usul-e-Deen], Tauheed, Justice, Prophethood, Imamat, Day of Judgement], this is where we really understand what our Faith is and what are the real differences.

 

If one believes that Allah did not appoint a Successor to the Seal of the Prophets Muhammad[pbuhahp], to safeguard the Religion which came to fruition after the struggles of 124,000 prophets[as].

 

If the Final Version of the constitution/eternal Miracle was not recorded by the infallible

 

If Allah did not instruct or for see that the recipient of the Verse of Purification  and Mubila and many others should be informed that the Fadak does not belong to her.

 

We have got a Huge problem in this Divine and Ultimate sources ?

 

Also, did not name the successors, in the Book. And if he even did, like HIS, Prophet [pbuhahp] said there will be 12 and gave the Name to attach to the last Caliph/Imam. We still got confusion as to who will it be - With the knowledge of the Number and Actual Name/Tile, we will have Some Muslims modeling the last Caliph after the First three, some it will be someone who will return the glory of Islam by outward conquest and whatever else is considered as glory of Islam.

 

According to the past and current political situation, most likely that a political ruler will be accepted as the Mahdi according to some Muslims. We are directed to argue if the last is born or will be born, important issue is how will the Muslims appoint the last, wait Muslims cannot appoint it has been appointment by Allah and announced by the Prophet [pbuhahp] with Name. Muslims will be looking for qualities and we will have two separate set of qualities that both groups one who believes that Imam[as] is living and present and the other who believes his is to be born.

 

It is my Laynam, belief, that sincere seekers who are looking into Islam. They look at fundamentals of the Faith. And based on that we Muslims are telling them, is we have got confusion, and doubts in the ultimate source, misdirection.

 

The reason we dwell in the past as we are accused. We look at the future and go back in the past to understand. Future of all Muslims is the last Muhammed, number and Name is agreed upon by all Muslims. Will he[as] be like the first Muhammad or like the Caliphs - this is the pressing and ultimate question, and upon reflection on last we will clearly understand the past, and our Religion. All other side issues are just noise to distract us, keep the eye on the future - the Last Muhammad. Everything will become crystal clear.

Layman.

[أبو فاطمة المحمدي]

The thread is derailing.

[أبو فاطمة المحمدي]

4 hours ago, Bukhari8k said:

al-Muslim reported a hadith from Abu Sa'id al-Khudri that Rasool Allah (SAW) said: ‘Do not write down anything from me, whosoever writes anything I have said other than the Qur'an let him erase it'.

Meaning that, by Sunni standards, Sahih al-Bukhari and others were written IN DISOBEDIENCE of the Prophet, sallallahu 'alaihi wa aalihi.

[Skanderbeg]

The Prophet (ﷺ) said: Beware! I have been given the Qur'an and something like it, yet the time is coming when a man replete on his couch will say: Keep to the Qur'an; what you find in it to be permissible treat as permissible, and what you find in it to be prohibited treat as prohibited. Beware! The domestic ass, beasts of prey with fangs, a find belonging to confederate, unless its owner does not want it, are not permissible to you If anyone comes to some people, they must entertain him, but if they do not, he has a right to mulct them to an amount equivalent to his entertainment.

 

Grade

: Sahih (Al-Albani)

Reference	: Sunan Abi Dawud 4604
In-book reference	: Book 42, Hadith 9
English translation	: Book 41, Hadith 4587

 

Edited December 26, 2015 by Skanderbeg

[Skanderbeg]

44 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Meaning that, by Sunni standards, Sahih al-Bukhari and others were written IN DISOBEDIENCE of the Prophet, sallallahu 'alaihi wa aalihi.

So he uses Bukhari to proof that Bukhari is actually nothing. Looks like a causal loop.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Skanderbeg

[sunnilove2hussain]

50 minutes ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Meaning that, by Sunni standards, Sahih al-Bukhari and others were written IN DISOBEDIENCE of the Prophet, sallallahu 'alaihi wa aalihi.

So are shia hadith books then.

[Skanderbeg]

1 minute ago, sunnilove2hussain said:

So are shia hadith books then.

He already didn't believe in Shia books but that he also refutes Bukhari and Muslim is actually a new development.

[Muslim2010]

7 hours ago, DGTW said:

Thank you for the books you mentioned, I'll try and see if I can get them in some way or another.

That being said, I agree with you saying my faith needs to be stronger, and so I want to fix it.

The following are the links of those books:

http://www.al-islam.org/then-i-was-guided-muhammad-al-tijani-al-samawi

http://www.al-islam.org/black-thursday-muhammad-al-tijani-al-samawi

http://www.al-islam.org/shiah-are-real-ahlul-sunnah-muhammad-al-tijani-al-samawi

http://www.al-islam.org/ask-those-who-know-muhammad-al-tijani-al-samawi

Wassalam,

[Abraram]

16 hours ago, anonymike said:

Brother I am a sunni technically, i dont like putting a name to it, trust me just because you are shia you are not kaffir. Study the Quran and learn what makes a person a kaffir. In my opinion the shia are closer to the straight (coming from a sunni). Just because the majority may seem right doesnt necessarily mean they are, that can be a logical fallacy. Learn about both sides and more importantly, since you are shia, learn the history of both, study the tafsir of both, learn qurayshi arabic from both and always make the Quran the furqan, the standard, the criteria. I hope this helps, make dua brother, I am still searching some things about shia I dont like, but the most important thing about shia, that the sunni also believe the mahdi. The shia have way more information regarding him... so sit tight and study my brother I love all of the shia...

 

 

First time read a person who is a sunni and writing without cursing and illogical dialogues. Happy to have serious peeps around SC.

[mightymask]

10 hours ago, DGTW said:

I agree. I had said I wasn't very knowledgeable on this topic. I probably should've mentioned I'm 15 as well. I used to pray 5 times a day, yes the shia way. I attended mosque (albeit not for many individual lectures) but for the obvious reasons i.e muharram, eid and I went to a shia mosque's madressa when I was younger too. Not the most impressive I admit but I want to know more about my religion, starting with this.

Thank you for the books you mentioned, I'll try and see if I can get them in some way or another.

That being said, I agree with you saying my faith needs to be stronger, and so I want to fix it.

all the books i mentioned are available on-line at www.al-islam.org , there is a whole page dedicated on that site about this issue Sunni-Shia 

[Hameedeh]

15 minutes ago, mightymask said:

all the books i mentioned are available on-line at www.al-islam.org , there is a whole page dedicated on that site about this issue Sunni-Shia 

Explore Shi'a & Sunni webpage at al-islam.org 

http://www.al-islam.org/feature/explore-shia-sunni

[Bukhari8k]

14 hours ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Meaning that, by Sunni standards, Sahih al-Bukhari and others were written IN DISOBEDIENCE of the Prophet, sallallahu 'alaihi wa aalihi.

In the said post, i have given the reason for not writing traditions i.e. the Quranic ayahs were scattered at that time. Also it was supposed to reach new Muslims first. Even at our homes, we are taught to read/learn Quran before ahadith. It is just that. There are other ahadith too on the subject which shows that permission of writing ahadith was given on certain occasions. So one needs to look at the scenarios.

[anonymike]

19 hours ago, Abrar7866 said:

First time read a person who is a sunni and writing without cursing and illogical dialogues. Happy to have serious peeps around SC.

I am interested in learning I truly believe there is a middle ground and important factors in both.

[Abraram]

Yeh sure, there are middle grounds and one would be ready to discuss on the topics if theres patience around the parties. We really enjoy having educated and well mannered inter faith dialogues which not only helps enrich the existing knowledge but helps in revolutionizing existing faith and beliefs.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Abrar7866

[أبو فاطمة المحمدي]

On 12/26/2015 at 9:18 PM, sunnilove2hussain said:

So are shia hadith books then.

We do not have prohibitions against hadith documentation in Shi'i books. And, we do not believe Sunni ahadith, except those that are corroborated in Shi'i sources.

[أبو فاطمة المحمدي]

22 hours ago, Bukhari8k said:

In the said post, i have given the reason for not writing traditions i.e. the Quranic ayahs were scattered at that time. Also it was supposed to reach new Muslims first. Even at our homes, we are taught to read/learn Quran before ahadith. It is just that. There are other ahadith too on the subject which shows that permission of writing ahadith was given on certain occasions. So one needs to look at the scenarios.

Are you suggesting that the Qur'anic verses and Sunni ahadith are so similar that one can be confused for the other?

Besides, would you mind quoting the Sunni ahadith which abrogate the prohibition against documenting ahadith? Also, would you mind to explain why the Four Caliphs, and even Mu'awiyah and Yazid, made ZERO efforts to compile ahadith?

[Bukhari8k]

12 hours ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Are you suggesting that the Qur'anic verses and Sunni ahadith are so similar that one can be confused for the other?

There are many ahadith indeed (specially hadith e Qudsi) and I am sure that there are Shia ahadith too.

 

12 hours ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Besides, would you mind quoting the Sunni ahadith which abrogate the prohibition against documenting ahadith? 

This prohibition was there to achieve certain goals and if writing a narration did not harm such goals then it was okay to write. Therefore, there are instances when writing of ahadith was recommended. And later on, when the Quranic Ayahs were properly assembled in a book form and its copies were sent to different parts of the empire that the transliteration of Quran and writing of ahadith started gaining momentum.

Anyways here are some narrations on writing of ahadith: 

(1) In a tradition recorded in Mustadrak-e-Haakim, Amr bin Aas (R.A.) reports, “I used to record everything the Prophet (PBUH) used to say with an incitation of (accumility) and gathering same. The Quraish stopped me saying: ‘Do you write everything the Prophet (PBUH) says? He is a human being, he speaks in anger and happiness.’ I abstained from writing. I mentioned this to the Prophet (PBUH) and he indicated towards his tongue and said, ‘Write! By Him in whose hand is my life. Nothing except the truth comes out of it.’ (Mustadrak Vol.1 Page 104)

(2)    Imam Tirmidhi has included a special chapter in the Chapter of Knowledge titled, The Chapter of the Permissibility of Recording Hadith – Abu Hurrairah (RA) reports that the Prophet indicated to a certain Ansari companion whose memory was weak, to write. One Ansari companion (RA) used to sit by Prophet (PBUH) and listen to the Hadith; it used to please him, but he was unable to memorise it. He complained to the Prophet (PBUH) who replied, “Seek assistance with your right hand and he indicated towards writing with his hand”(Jamia Tirmizi vol. 2 pg. 107).

(3) In one Hadith recorded in Mustadrak-e-Haakim, an explicit and clear order of writing is given. The words are “Tie down knowledge”, the Companion enquired, “What is tying down knowledge?” The Prophet (PBUH) replied, “It’s writing.” (Mustadrak vol. 1 pg. 106)

(4) The incident of Abu Shah Yemani is famous. Once the Prophet (PBUH) mentioned an incident and upon the request of Abu Shah the Prophet (PBUH) instructed the Companion to write for Abu Shah – this Hadith is recorded in Jami Tirmidhi vol. 2 pg. 107 and Bukhari vol. 1 pg. 23
 

12 hours ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Also, would you mind to explain why the Four Caliphs, and even Mu'awiyah and Yazid, made ZERO efforts to compile ahadith?

This is incorrect. While they were quite cautious about writing ahadith, they put great emphasis on narrating reliable Prophetic narrations. 

First, lets see if the Rashidun Caliph(s) themselves or their associates compiled ahadith or not and then we will see what importance did they give to the prophetic traditions:

(1)    THE SAHIFA OF ABDULLAH IBN AMR (ra)
Abdullah bin Amr (RA) possessed a collection that exceeded one thousand Ahaadith. Ibnr-Rushd has mentioned in his Kitaab Asadul Ghaaba (vol. 3 pg. 233) that, this collection was named As-saadiqah.
(2) THE SAHIFA OF ALI (RA)
Imam Bukhari (RA) has mentioned in this Sahifa in the chapter of “Ilm” (vol. 1 pg. 21) and he has mentioned it in four places. The narrator Abu Juhaifa reports that, “I enquired from Ali (R.A.), do you possess a book?” He replied: “No, except the Book of Allah or the understanding granted to a Muslim or what is in this Sahifa.” I asked him, “What is in this Sahifa?” He replied, “Orders relating to ‘Diyat’ - the freeing of prisoners and no Muslim will be killed in lieu of a kafir.”
This Sahifa contained orders regarding, murder, compensations, capital punishments, details of Zakat and matters relating to non-Muslim citizens in an Islamic State.
(3) KITABUS – SAQAH
This collection was personally dictated by the Prophet (PBUH). It contained details regarding Zakat, Ushar etc. According to some reports it seems as though this was written for the Zakat collectors. However, the  Prophet (PBUH) left this world before it was sent to them. This kitaab (book) remained with Abu Bakr and Umar (R.A.). Eventually Umar bin Abdul Aziz memorized it and thereafter Ibn Shihaab Zohri memorised it.

(4)SAHIFA IBN ABBAS (R.A.)
(5) SAHIFA JAABIR IBN ABDULLAH (ra)
(6) SAHIFA SAMURA IBN JUNDOB (RA)
(7) SAHIFA SAAD IBN UBADA (ra)
(8) SAHIFA ABU HURAYRA (RA)
(9) SAHIFA IBN MAS’OOD (ra)
(10) SAHIFA AMR IBN HAZAM (RA)
(11) SAHIFA IBN MUBARAK (ra)

(12) add SAHIFA ABU BAKR (ra) too as he had composed a book containing 500 Prophetic ahadith although he later on destroyed his collection anticipating “that I would die while I still have this collection among which there might be reports of a man that I deemed trustworthy while he was the opposite; therefore, I would be the narrator of such false reports.
Al-Dhahbiy: Tadhkirat al-Huffaz

Along with the Quran, they recognized Sunnah as the primary source of Islamic teachings and law however they were also quite cautious on propagating something which might not be 100% correct.  I believe that we differ more over ahadith than the Quran itself, and this might be more so because of the unsound traditions that are there. So one needs to check the reliability whereas one does not need to test a Quranic ayah.

-    Abu Sa’id Khudri reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Do not take down anything from me, and he who took down anything from me except the Qur’an, he should efface that AND narrate from me, for there is no harm in it and he who attributed any falsehood to me−and Hammam said: I think he also said:” deliberately” −he should in fact find his abode in the Hell−Fire. (Source:  Sahih Muslim Book 42, Number 7147)

-    Dujan Abul Ghusn, who was from Basra said: I came to Madinah and met Aslam, the freed slave of Umar Ibn Khattab. I said: Tell me (a report) from Umar. He said : I cannot I am afraid that I will ADD or SUBTRACT something. If we said to UMAR, tell us SOMETHING FROM the MESSENGER of Allah. He (Umar) would say: “I Am AFRAID that I may ADD or SUBTRACT a letter. “Messenger (pbuh) said whoever tells a LIE about me will be in hell”. (Source: Musnad Ibn Hanbal volume 1. page 193, number 326)

-   Umar b. Khattab, delivered the Friday sermon …. so that they should administer justice amongst them, teach them their religion and the Sunnah of the Apostle of Allah (saw)... (Source: Sahih Muslim Book 4, Hadith number 1151)

[أبو فاطمة المحمدي]

2 hours ago, Bukhari8k said:

There are many ahadith indeed (specially hadith e Qudsi) and I am sure that there are Shia ahadith too.

What do you say about this verse (17:88):

قل لئن اجتمعت الإنس والجن على أن يأتوا بمثل هذا القرآن لا يأتون بمثله ولو كان بعضهم لبعض ظهيرا

Say: ´If both men and jinn banded together to produce the like of this Qur´an, they could never produce anything like it, even if they backed each other up.´

There is no hadith (qudsi or not) that is similar to the Qur'an. If you have any, present it here. And, the fact that the Sahabah did not know this simple fact tells a lot about them.

[power]

Abu bakr Umar's justification implies that the Sahabah are accused of their incapacity to make distinction between the Words of Almighty Allah that they memorized and reported and the words of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) that stood for the interpretation and explanation of the Holy QURAN. Everybody knows that the Holy QURAN enjoys such an incomparable style of typical eloquence, unique phraseology, and spiritual attraction that it cannot be confused with the Hadith. The QURANIC verses enjoy such a special motif and coherence that they cannot be confused with any other speech

Abu Bakr Umar's justification might have found a ground if the Holy QURAN and Sunnah had been written in the same papers. However, none of the Muslims had ever mixed the texts of the Holy QURAN with those of the Holy Sunnah in the same paper. Despite the passage of long ages, the earliest books of Tafsir reached at our hands without having any single confusion between the texts of the Holy QURAN and those of the Holy Sunnah.

As far as style and eloquence are, concerned, indisputable characteristics have distinguished between the QUR'ANIC and the narrative texts. The QUR'ANIC texts have been revealed in the form of inimitability, challenging all the Arab polytheists, who were masters of eloquence, to produce the like of it. More than once and in different eloquent and reproachful styles, the Holy QUR'AN challenged the unbelievers to bring its like.

Edited December 28, 2015 by power