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In the Name of God بسم الله

Hadith Narrated by 12th Imam and/or His 4 Deputies

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Ugly Jinn

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The 12th Imam was 5 years old he appointed 4 deputies before his occultation. The 4 deputies are:

  1. Uthman ibn Sa’id al-Asadi († 873-80)
  2. Abu Jafar Muhammad ibn Uthman ibn Sa’id al-Asadi († 917)
  3. Abul Qasim Husayn ibn Ruh al-Nawbakhti († 938)
  4. Abul Hasan Ali ibn Muhammad al-Samarri († 941)

I am looking for hadith that are directly narrated by the 5 individuals above.

 

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Thanks for so many narrations, I'm gonna go over it with time. 

  1. So the hadith narrated by 12th Imam above was when he was 4-5 years old? I'm having difficulties imagining a baby giving orders/lectures. 
  2. Do you blame the people if they weren't willing to accept a baby to lead?

 

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9 minutes ago, Ugly Jinn said:

Thanks for so many narrations, I'm gonna go over it with time. 

  1. So the hadith narrated by 12th Imam above was when he was 4-5 years old? I'm having difficulties imagining a baby giving orders/lectures. 

 

How about first go on to read them carefully and then after raise specific questions or ambiguity found on them?

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1. Do you blame the people if they weren't willing to accept a baby to lead?

Do you blame the older brothers of Nabi Allah Yusef(as) for refusing to accept that their "baby" brother was much more wiser and superior than they ever will be? Or the Jews who refused to accept that Nabi Allah 'Isa(as) spoke with divine wisdom while the was in the cradle? Do you not reflect on the Ayat of the Quran?

Anyway, your question is not relevant to role of Imam al-Mahdi(as), as he was an adult for most of the time during the minor Ghaybah when he was communicating with his 4 deputies. 

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On 12/16/2015 at 11:48 PM, Al-Hassan said:

How about first go on to read them carefully and then after raise specific questions or ambiguity found on them?

The content is irrelevant to my question.

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Anyway, your question is not relevant to role of Imam al-Mahdi(as), as he was an adult for most of the time during the minor Ghaybah when he was communicating with his 4 deputies. 

He started at 5, do the math.

 

On 12/16/2015 at 0:23 AM, Qa'im said:

Most of the Hidden Imam's letters came out during the time of the 2nd and 3rd ambassadors, and the 3rd died in 320 AH (when the Imam was about 65 years old).

As for having a 5 year old Imam, it is comparable to al-Jawad (as) and al-Hadi (as) who were 7 and 6 years old respectively. Both of these Imams were tested and accepted at a time where the Shi`a had very high expectations for an Imam.

Ibn al-Hasan (as) was attested to by his father, his aunt, his grandmother, and the leaders of the Shi`a, There were many written narrations prophesying the Imam's hidden birth, which implies that he would be concealed from his birth till his uprising. There were also many narrations on there being a total of 12 Imams, including Sunni and Zaydi narrations. Furthermore, there were signs and miracles performed during the minor occultation, some of which you can find in post #2. Looking at everything together, including the Quranic example of Jesus being raised as a prophet in the cradle, and the previous Imams, and it is totally reasonable.

  1. I went through the narrations, is there a narration where 12th Imam is declaring his 4 deputies?
  2. But what was the response of the Muslim masses at that time? Are there any references as to why the masses rejected 12th Imam as an Imam? I am pretty sure age had a factor because back then the elders were considered highly. 

 

 

 

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Obviously this guy was ignorant and never knew if there existed any hadiths by the blessed 12th Imam or not (and of the entire volumes of them like Behaar's last volume!), and when he has been shown hadiths he snaps to what he always does --> :blabla:

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2 hours ago, Ugly Jinn said:
On 2015-12-16 at 0:23 AM, Qa'im said:

 

  1. I went through the narrations, is there a narration where 12th Imam is declaring his 4 deputies?

Imam al-Hadi and Imam al-`Askari vouched for the first two ambassadors, commanding our obedience to them and saying that the ambassadors' words are their (as) words. Then, Shaykh Husayn b. Ruh and Shaykh as-Simuri were appointed by their respective predecessors. As you can see in post #2, there are dozens of miracles from different sources reported to have taken place in this period, including many I have not included, which make their case stronger.
 

3 hours ago, Ugly Jinn said:

But what was the response of the Muslim masses at that time? Are there any references as to why the masses rejected 12th Imam as an Imam? I am pretty sure age had a factor because back then the elders were considered highly. 

Again, two of the predecessors of Ibn al-Hasan (as) were children, so the Shi`a were already over this issue. In fact, the elder companions of the later Imams almost unanimously accepted the 12th. As for the "Muslim masses" (i.e. non-Shi`as?), they rejected Imam `Ali, so what exactly do you expect?

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6 hours ago, Ugly Jinn said:

But what was the response of the Muslim masses at that time? Are there any references as to why the masses rejected 12th Imam as an Imam? I am pretty sure age had a factor because back then the elders were considered highly. 

 

 

 

Have you ever heard of "baby" prophets?

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1 hour ago, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

Have you ever heard of "baby" prophets?

Isa ibn Maryam (saw) had his prophethood since he was a baby in the cradle. (19:29-33) The Ugly Jinn's assumption that prophethood or imamate is restricted to only adults is rather naive.

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This narration is pretty decisive on the "young Imams" issue:

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن صفوان بن يحيى قال: قلت للرضا عليه السلام: قد كنا نسألك قبل أن يهب الله لك أبا جعفر عليه السلام فكنت تقول: يهب الله لي غلاما، فقد وهبه الله لك، فأقر عيوننا، فلا أرانا الله يومك فإن كان كون فإلى من؟ فأشار بيده إلى أبي جعفر عليه السلام وهو قائم بين يديه، فقلت: جعلت فداك هذا ابن ثلاث سنين؟! فقال: وما يضره من ذلك فقد قام عيسى عليه السلام بالحجة وهو ابن ثلاث سنين.

Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Safwan b. Yahya.

He said: I said to ar-Rida عليه السلام: We used to ask you before Allah bestowed upon you Abu Ja`far عليه السلام, and you would say, “Allah will bestow upon me a boy” and Allah has bestowed him upon you.  Our eyes have acknowledged him. May Allah spare us from seeing your day – but if that were to occur, to whom will it (i.e. the Imamate) go? So with his hand he pointed to Abu Ja`far عليه السلام while he was standing in front of him. So I said: May I be your ransom, this three-year-old son?! So he said: That would be of no harm to him, as `Isa عليه السلام rose by the proof when he was a three-year-old son. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 832)

(sahih) (صحيح)

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On 16/12/2015 at 3:52 AM, Ugly Jinn said:

Thanks for so many narrations, I'm gonna go over it with time. 

  1. So the hadith narrated by 12th Imam above was when he was 4-5 years old? I'm having difficulties imagining a baby giving orders/lectures. 
  2. Do you blame the people if they weren't willing to accept a baby to lead?

 

What say you on Isa (pbuh) son of Maryam (a.s) ?

 

Holy Quran: Surah Maryam

"O sister of Aaron, your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother unchaste."

So she pointed to him. They said, "How can we speak to one who is in the cradle a child?"

[Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah. He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.

And He has made me blessed wherever I am and has enjoined upon me prayer and zakah as long as I remain alive

And [made me] dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me a wretched tyrant.

And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive."

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On 12/19/2015 at 9:54 PM, Qa'im said:

Imam al-Hadi and Imam al-`Askari vouched for the first two ambassadors, commanding our obedience to them and saying that the ambassadors' words are their (as) words. Then, Shaykh Husayn b. Ruh and Shaykh as-Simuri were appointed by their respective predecessors. As you can see in post #2, there are dozens of miracles from different sources reported to have taken place in this period, including many I have not included, which make their case stronger.

Do you have the hadith where Askari vouched the first 2 ambassadors? 

 

Quote
Quote

Again, two of the predecessors of Ibn al-Hasan (as) were children, so the Shi`a were already over this issue. In fact, the elder companions of the later Imams almost unanimously accepted the 12th. As for the "Muslim masses" (i.e. non-Shi`as?), they rejected Imam `Ali, so what exactly do you expect?

 

Well, the masses did accept Imam Ali later. There are many theories as to why the masses didn't accept him earlier (him being young was one). Any idea how many 'shias' existed around this time?

 

On 12/19/2015 at 3:04 AM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Isa ibn Maryam (saw) had his prophethood since he was a baby in the cradle. (19:29-33) The Ugly Jinn's assumption that prophethood or imamate is restricted to only adults is rather naive.

I think the naivety is assuming same rules apply to the concept of Prophethood and Imamat, because they don't. 

Hence all prophet examples. 

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The 5th and 6th hadiths in post #2 are al-`Askari and al-Hadi's testimonies in support of the first two ambassadors.

As for child-Imams, again, Imam al-Jawade and Imam al-Hadi were almost has young when they began their Imamate. The people tested them, and they were blown again. Similarly, Jesus was a prophet from childhood. And while most would accept Imam Ali as Caliph, most did not accept him as Imam, and a significant minority did not accept him as Caliph, even though his nass was clear and unequivocal. As for the number of Shia at this time, it would probably have been in the hundreds of thousands.

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