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Christianlady

What Muhammad Believed

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On the subject, What did Muhammad believe? --- I would like to get back to something that is generally missed.

 

Ali had all of the Surahs on hand when Muhammad died. Many had been copied and distributed to the people for them to read and memorize, but this is the history which gives “Info on the Quran compiled by Ali”:

 

Quote: There is no dispute among Muslim scholars, whether they are Sunni or Shia,

concerning the fact that the Commander of Believers, Ali (AS), possessed a

special transcript of the text of Quran which he had collected himself, and

he was THE FIRST who compiled Quran. There are a great number of traditions

from Sunni and Shia which states that after the death of the Holy Prophet

(PBUH&HF), Imam Ali sat down in his house and said that he had sworn an

oath that he would not put on his outdoor clothes or leave his house until

he collects together the Quran.

 

After he compiled this transcript, Imam Ali (AS) took it and presented it

to the rulers who came after the Holy Prophet, and said: "Here is the book of Allah, 

your Lord, In the order that was revealed to your Prophet," but they did not accept

it  and replied: "We have no need of this. We have with us what you possess."

Thereupon, Imam Ali (AS) took the transcript back and informed them that they

will never see it again. It is reported that Imam Ali recited the latter part of the

following verse of Quran:

"And when Allah took a Covenant from the People of the Book to

     clarify it to mankind and not to hide its (clarification); but

     they threw it away behind their backs and purchased with it some

     miserable gain! and what an evil was the bargain they made!" (Quran 3:187)

 

By "its clarification", Imam Ali meant the unique divine commentaries. 

However, Mr Pickthall records that the two leaders, Abu Bakr and Umar

didn’t have the complete Quran:

Quote from Intro to the Pickthall Translation

 

From the compiling of Ali’s Quran:

Quote: As you know the Chapter al-Alaq (96) is not at the beginning of the present

Quran. Also Muslims agree that the verse (5:3) was among one of the

last revealed verses of Quran (but not the very last one), yet it is not

toward the end of the present Quran. This clearly proves that although

the Quran that we have available is complete, it is not in the order

that has been revealed. These few misplacements were done by some

companions on purpose at worst, or out of ignorance at least.

 

In the intro to Surah 5, Mr Pickthall suggests that verse 3 was part of Muhammad’s address at his ‘Farewell Pilgrimage’ in year 10, when he declared that his Mission was finished, of removing idolatry and restoring Faith in One God.

Others suggest that verses 4-5 are of the same time, --- So this would constitute a new Law in 5:3, and new liberty in 4-5, would it not?

 

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On 12/18/2015 at 2:53 PM, Christianlady said:

So basically the specific punishments for women because of Eve’s sin are increased pain and in being under the “rule” of husbands. (This, by the way, is not a good excuse for any man to abuse his wife in any way. A good man will not abuse his wife but rather loves his wife like Jesus Christ loves his followers = the church.)  The punishments for Adam’s sin also affect women, since the ground is cursed, eating requires hard work, and humans die.

Out of curiosity, what are the 9 punishments you think Christians believe? Thanks.

Peace and greetings,

I don't remember where I read about the punishments for Eve/women and I don't remember the 7-9. I will post them if I ever find them. :)

On 12/18/2015 at 2:53 PM, Christianlady said:

Does the Qur’an specifically mention Eve at all? These verses just call her “wife” – not by the name Adam gave her.  (I boldened some.)

Sura 20 contradicts Genesis 3 because it cuts Eve out and has satan speaking to Adam instead of to Eve, which is interesting:

 

Then Satan whispered to him; he said, "O Adam, shall I direct you to the tree of eternity and possession that will not deteriorate?" And Adam and his wife ate of it, and their private parts became apparent to them, and they began to fasten over themselves from the leaves of Paradise. And Adam disobeyed his Lord and erred.  Then his Lord chose him and turned to him in forgiveness and guided [him].  [Allah] said, "Descend from Paradise - all, [your descendants] being enemies to one another. And if there should come to you guidance from Me - then whoever follows My guidance will neither go astray [in the world] nor suffer [in the Hereafter].
– Sura 20:120-123

In my opinion, Genesis is accurate, because God protects His Word. As a woman, I personally believe how God created Eve out of a rib of Adam is romantic and beautiful. One of my most favorite quotes is the following, attributed to Matthew Henry:

“The woman was made of a rib out of the side of Adam; not made out of his head to rule over him, nor out of his feet to be trampled upon by him, but out of his side to be equal with him, under his arm to be protected, and near his heart to be beloved.”

Matthew Henry, Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: Complete and Unabridged in One Volume

Does the Qur’an specify how God formed Adam and Eve, like Genesis does? If so, could you please provide me a link to the passage in the Qur’an? Thanks.

 

The Quran does not mention Eve by name as is the case with most personalities. In terms of equality, the 'blame' for eating the fruit is shared equally by Adam and Eve. Also the predominant Islamic concept is that Eve was not created out of Adam's ribs but a separate creation of God. The emphasis in Islam has always been man and woman are equal in the eyes of God but they do share different roles in society.

Creation of Adam:
Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man from clay:
"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

[Yusufali 38:71-72]
http://readquranonline.org/index/view/s/38/a/71
http://readquranonline.org/index/view/s/38/a/72

 

Adam and Eve:
O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for Allah ever watches over you.
[Yusufali 4:1]
http://readquranonline.org/index/view/s/4/a/1
 

On 12/18/2015 at 3:29 PM, Christianlady said:

Not all the Jews however had Jesus executed. After all, Jesus’ mother Mary, his 11 loyal apostles, and his disciples were all Jewish. It was wasn't until God gave Peter a vision that Gentiles "officially" became followers/disciples of Jesus Christ too (Acts 10).

I consider Jesus Christ to be the Son of God and the Word of God. So, I believe Jesus Christ is the Word of God incarnated, hence divine.

I agree that not all Jews persecuted Jesus.

Please explain what this means - "I believe Jesus Christ is the Word of God incarnated". Previously, either you or Placid said theat the Word of God is God, so in essence Jesus is God or Jesus is the God-incarnate?

Best regards.

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On 12/19/2015 at 3:57 PM, placid said:

This clearly proves that although

the Quran that we have available is complete, it is not in the order

that has been revealed. These few misplacements were done by some

companions on purpose at worst, or out of ignorance at least.

 

In the intro to Surah 5, Mr Pickthall suggests that verse 3 was part of Muhammad’s address at his ‘Farewell Pilgrimage’ in year 10, when he declared that his Mission was finished, of removing idolatry and restoring Faith in One God.

Others suggest that verses 4-5 are of the same time, --- So this would constitute a new Law in 5:3, and new liberty in 4-5, would it not?

 

I dont believe that with exception of a few fanatics, any Muslim believes that the Quran today is complied in the order it was revealed. However, it is a common belief that the surahs/chapters were completely formed so the 2-3 caliph merely indexed them in descending order - largest to smallest.

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Hi Shiaman14,

 

Quote: I dont believe that with exception of a few fanatics, any Muslim believes that the Quran today is complied in the order it was revealed. However, it is a common belief that the surahs/chapters were completely formed so the 2-3 caliph merely indexed them in descending order - largest to smallest.

 

Response: --- Yes it appears that the longer ones are at the front, however that is not consistent either. --- It may have been that Surah 96 had been the first Surah as it was the first revelation to Muhammad, at least the first 5 verses.

 

This is how Mr Pickthall records the vision to Muhammad, in his introduction.

Quote: It was his practice to retire with his family for a month of every year to a cave in the desert for meditation. His place of retreat was Hira, a dessert hill not far from Mecca, and his chosen month was Ramadan, the month of heat. It was there one night toward the end of his quiet month when the first revelation came to him when he was forty years old.

 He was asleep or in a transe when he heard a voice say: “Read.”  He said, “I cannot read.” The voice again said “Read.” He said, “I cannot read.” The third time the voice, more terrible, commanded, “Read.” He said, “What can I read?” The voice said:

“Read : In the name of thy Lord who creaeth, Createth man from a clot.

“Read : And it is thy Lord the Most Bountiful. Who teaches by pen.

“Teacheth men that which he knew not.”

 

These are the first words of Surah 96, called  ‘The Clot.’ --- And these are the first of it:

 

1 Read: In the name of thy Lord Who createth,

2 Createth man from a clot.

3 Read: And thy Lord is the Most Bountiful

4 Who teacheth by the pen

5 Teacheth man that which he knew not.

6 Nay, but verily man is rebellious

7 That he thinketh himself independent!

8 Lo! unto thy Lord is the return.

 

--- It goes on to verse 19 with short statements,

 

This may have been followed by “The Opening” which was a very early Meccan Surah, used as the common prayer.

 

--- However, after the opening, it now goes to Sursh 2, the Cow, with 286 verses and revealed in years 1-2 of the Hijrah (the move to Madinah).

 

--- It is certainly one of the main ‘teaching’ Surahs.

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17 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Peace and greetings,

I don't remember where I read about the punishments for Eve/women and I don't remember the 7-9. I will post them if I ever find them. :)

Peace and greetings Shiaman14 :)

Ok, thanks.

Quote

The Quran does not mention Eve by name as is the case with most personalities. In terms of equality, the 'blame' for eating the fruit is shared equally by Adam and Eve. Also the predominant Islamic concept is that Eve was not created out of Adam's ribs but a separate creation of God. The emphasis in Islam has always been man and woman are equal in the eyes of God but they do share different roles in society.

So Muslims reject the Creation account of Eve that Moses wrote? Personally, I believe God protects and preserves the written word He gave to Moses, Moses' successor Joshua, the judges, Samuel and the other prophets - all the people who wrote the Tanakh (Old Testament).

The span of centuries and people is one reason why I believe the Tanakh and the New Testament are the written Word of God, because the Tanakh and the New Testament are not just written or dictated by one man.
 

Quote

 

Creation of Adam:
Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man from clay:
"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

[Yusufali 38:71-72]
http://readquranonline.org/index/view/s/38/a/71
http://readquranonline.org/index/view/s/38/a/72

 

Adam and Eve:
O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for Allah ever watches over you.
[Yusufali 4:1]
http://readquranonline.org/index/view/s/4/a/1

 


The verses of the Qur'an above do not talk about the fall of Adam and Eve.
Also, why did Allah command iblis to worship Adam?

Quote


I agree that not all Jews persecuted Jesus.

 

It is so cool how nowadays more Jewish people are coming to accept Jesus (Yeshua) as their Mashiach (Messiah/Anointed One/King)!!! While it's possible the following prophecy was fulfilled in the time of Jesus' chosen apostles or is yet to be fulfilled, I do believe that some Gentiles (including me) are also taking hold of this prophecy now: (I boldened some.)

Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD. Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you. - Zechariah 8:22-23

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Zechariah.html

As knowledge increases, the veil that has sadly covered the eyes of Gentile Christians for centuries concerning who Jesus Christ truly is has slowly been lifting. Jesus Christ is most indeed the King of the Jews and the light of the Gentiles, and he is returning when our Father in Heaven says.

After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.” - Matthew 2:1-2 (NIV)

But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” - Luke 1:30-33 (NIV)

Again, it's so cool how more Jewish people are now understanding who Jesus Christ is - not some god of the Gentiles who advocates killing Jews and Muslims (such as in the Crusades) but rather the King of the Jews and the Light of the Gentiles, whose kingdom spreads to all the earth (Isaiah 49:5-8)!

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Isaiah49.html

 

Quote


Please explain what this means - "I believe Jesus Christ is the Word of God incarnated". Previously, either you or Placid said theat the Word of God is God, so in essence Jesus is God or Jesus is the God-incarnate?

 

I believe Jesus Christ is the visible representation of God.

Jesus Christ existed before his conception in the womb, though not in the physical form of Jesus Christ.

Rather, Jesus Christ existed as the Word of God before his miraculous conception in Mary's womb.

It is also possible that the following instances are the Word of God in physical form centuries before the Word of God became Jesus Christ in the womb of Mary: (I boldened some.)

1.) Voice and presence of HaShem in the Garden of Eden:

And they heard the voice of HaShem G-d walking in the garden toward the cool of the day; and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of HaShem G-d amongst the trees of the garden.

- Genesis 3:8 http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Genesis3.html

2.) Melchizedek king of Salem:

And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine; and he was priest of G-d the Most High. And he blessed him, and said: 'Blessed be Abram of G-d Most High, Maker of heaven and earth; and blessed be G-d the Most High, who hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand.' And he gave him a tenth of all. - Genesis 14:18-20

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Genesis14.html

Psalm 110 gives more info on this great king of Salem:

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

- Psalm 110:1-4  http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Psalms110.html

Hebrew 7 gives even more information concerning Melchizedek - king of Salem:

This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, the name Melchizedek means “king of righteousness”; then also, “king of Salem” means “king of peace.” Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever. - Hebrews 7:1-3 (NIV)

3.) One of the 3 "men" who appeared to Abraham:

And HaShem appeared unto him by the terebinths of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; and he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood over against him; and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed down to the earth,

Genesis 18:1-2 http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Genesis18.html

And HaShem went His way, as soon as He had left off speaking to Abraham; and Abraham returned unto his place. - Genesis 18:33
(Genesis 19 accounts the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, with 2 angels - not 3 men. It's very possible that one of those 3 "men" is the Word of God incarnated, while the other 2 "men" are the 2 angels who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah on God's orders.)

4.) The "man" who wrestled with Jacob and named him Israel:

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was strained, as he wrestled with him.

And he said: 'Let me go, for the day breaketh.' And he said: 'I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.'

And he said unto him: 'What is thy name?' And be said: 'Jacob.'

And he said: 'Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast striven with G-d and with men, and hast prevailed.'

And Jacob asked him, and said: 'Tell me, I pray thee, thy name.' And he said: 'Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name?' And he blessed him there.

And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: 'for I have seen G-d face to face, and my life is preserved.'

- Genesis 32:25-31

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Genesis32.html

5.) The "man" who is captain of the host of the LORD who appeared to Moses' successor, Joshua:

And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant? And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.  - Joshua 5:13-15

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Joshua5.html

6.) The "Son of God" in the fire with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego:

Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.

He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.  - Daniel 3:24-24

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Daniel3.html

Quote

Best regards.

Thanks. Best regards to you too :)

Peace and God bless you

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Peace and blessings,

 

5 hours ago, Christianlady said:

The verses of the Qur'an above do not talk about the fall of Adam and Eve.

There are 2 main set of verses that talk about Adam/Eve and their fall:

[Quran 7:11] It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrate; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who prostrate.
[Quran 7:12] (Allah) said: "What prevented thee from prostrating when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay."
[Quran 7:13] (Allah) said: "Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)."
[Quran 7:14] He said: "Give me respite till the day they are raised up."
[Quran 7:15] (Allah) said: "Be thou among those who have respite."
[Quran 7:16] He said: "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way:
[Quran 7:17] "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."
[Quran 7:18] (Allah) said: "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee,- Hell will I fill with you all.
[Quran 7:19] "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as ye wish: but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."
[Quran 7:20] Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live for ever."
[Quran 7:21] And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.
[Quran 7:22] So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"
[Quran 7:23] They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost."
[Quran 7:24] (Allah) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood,- for a time."
[Quran 7:25] He said: "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)."

and 

[Quran 20:116] When We said to the angels, "Prostrate yourselves to Adam", they prostrated themselves, but not Iblis: he refused.
[Quran 20:117] Then We said: "O Adam! verily, this is an enemy to thee and thy wife: so let him not get you both out of the Garden, so that thou art landed in misery.
[Quran 20:118] "There is therein (enough provision) for thee not to go hungry nor to go naked,
[Quran 20:119] "Nor to suffer from thirst, nor from the sun's heat."
[Quran 20:120] But Satan whispered evil to him: he said, "O Adam! shall I lead thee to the Tree of Eternity and to a kingdom that never decays?"
[Quran 20:121] In the result, they both ate of the tree, and so their nakedness appeared to them: they began to sew together, for their covering, leaves from the Garden: thus did Adam disobey his Lord, and allow himself to be seduced.
[Quran 20:122] But his Lord chose him (for His Grace): He turned to him, and gave him Guidance.
[Quran 20:123] He said: "Get ye down, both of you,- all together, from the Garden, with enmity one to another: but if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from Me, whosoever follows My Guidance, will not lose his way, nor fall into misery.

Islam holds Adam and Eve equally responsible for eating from the tree.

5 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Also, why did Allah command iblis to worship Adam?

Ma-ayish means the means for the fulfilment of life. In addition to all the material things necessary to sustain life, it also refers to all those powers and faculties which help man to rise to a higher plane to prepare for his spiritual destiny, on account of which the angels were asked to prostrate themselves before Adam. Iblis refused to be of those who bowed down, because he arrogantly despised the angels who bowed down as well as man to whom they bowed down. Arrogance, envy and rebellion were his crimes .

As said above the spiritual destiny of man put him above the angels and jinn, so the refusal of Shaytan (Iblis) to accept man's superiority was unreasonable. It was egotism which prompted him to impertinent rebellion.

Allah created man with His own hands from clay and gave him His own spirit (ruh)). The essential quality of clay is softness which makes it adaptable to any form or shape-obedience and submission, and total submission to Allah's will is Islam-the spiritual destiny of man. So Shaytan, a product of fire, not having the qualities of adaptability, nor blessed with the holy spirit, was the first creature of Allah who resorted to conjecture, therefore was thrown out, eternally accursed. On his request Allah gave him respite (by saying): Be you among those who have respite. It implies that there are others, like him, under respite. - taken from commentary of the Quran by Pooya/M.A. Ali

I hope this helps.

Best regards.

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47 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Peace and blessings,

Thanks Shiaman14 :)

Quote

There are 2 main set of verses that talk about Adam/Eve and their fall:

[Quran 7:11] It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrate; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who prostrate.
[Quran 7:12] (Allah) said: "What prevented thee from prostrating when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay."
[Quran 7:13] (Allah) said: "Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)."
[Quran 7:14] He said: "Give me respite till the day they are raised up."
[Quran 7:15] (Allah) said: "Be thou among those who have respite."
[Quran 7:16] He said: "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way:
[Quran 7:17] "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."
[Quran 7:18] (Allah) said: "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee,- Hell will I fill with you all.
[Quran 7:19] "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as ye wish: but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."
[Quran 7:20] Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live for ever."
[Quran 7:21] And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.
[Quran 7:22] So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"
[Quran 7:23] They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost."
[Quran 7:24] (Allah) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood,- for a time."
[Quran 7:25] He said: "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)."

and [Quran 20:116] When We said to the angels, "Prostrate yourselves to Adam", they prostrated themselves, but not Iblis: he refused.
[Quran 20:117] Then We said: "O Adam! verily, this is an enemy to thee and thy wife: so let him not get you both out of the Garden, so that thou art landed in misery.
[Quran 20:118] "There is therein (enough provision) for thee not to go hungry nor to go naked,
[Quran 20:119] "Nor to suffer from thirst, nor from the sun's heat."
[Quran 20:120] But Satan whispered evil to him: he said, "O Adam! shall I lead thee to the Tree of Eternity and to a kingdom that never decays?"
[Quran 20:121] In the result, they both ate of the tree, and so their nakedness appeared to them: they began to sew together, for their covering, leaves from the Garden: thus did Adam disobey his Lord, and allow himself to be seduced.
[Quran 20:122] But his Lord chose him (for His Grace): He turned to him, and gave him Guidance.
[Quran 20:123] He said: "Get ye down, both of you,- all together, from the Garden, with enmity one to another: but if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from Me, whosoever follows My Guidance, will not lose his way, nor fall into misery.

Islam holds Adam and Eve equally responsible for eating from the tree.

Thanks for sharing these verses. Qur'an 7:20 says "to them" whereas Qur'an 20:120 says "to him" specifying Adam,  but both contradict Genesis 3 where the serpent talks to Eve - not Adam.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Genesis3.html

 

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Ma-ayish means the means for the fulfilment of life. In addition to all the material things necessary to sustain life, it also refers to all those powers and faculties which help man to rise to a higher plane to prepare for his spiritual destiny, on account of which the angels were asked to prostrate themselves before Adam. Iblis refused to be of those who bowed down, because he arrogantly despised the angels who bowed down as well as man to whom they bowed down. Arrogance, envy and rebellion were his crimes .

As said above the spiritual destiny of man put him above the angels and jinn, so the refusal of Shaytan (Iblis) to accept man's superiority was unreasonable. It was egotism which prompted him to impertinent rebellion.

Allah created man with His own hands from clay and gave him His own spirit (ruh)). The essential quality of clay is softness which makes it adaptable to any form or shape-obedience and submission, and total submission to Allah's will is Islam-the spiritual destiny of man. So Shaytan, a product of fire, not having the qualities of adaptability, nor blessed with the holy spirit, was the first creature of Allah who resorted to conjecture, therefore was thrown out, eternally accursed. On his request Allah gave him respite (by saying): Be you among those who have respite. It implies that there are others, like him, under respite. - taken from commentary of the Quran by Pooya/M.A. Ali

 

Thanks for explaining what Muslims believe concerning this. I wonder if the Talmud says something about this? The Bible doesn't, so I personally do not believe this is true.

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I hope this helps.

It does; thanks for your time and the thought-provoking discussion!

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Hello again,

lol Hello again :) (I do that a lot, don't I?) :) 

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God incarnate? Isn't that pagan belief?

It depends on who you ask.

If you ask a Jewish person who believes in G-d but does not believe that Jesus is truly the Son of God and the Mashiach, he/she will tell you yes.

If you ask a person who follows Muhammad, he or she will tell you yes.

If you ask a Christian who believes Jesus is the Son of God and hence "God the Son", he or she will tell you no; it's not a pagan belief but rather is a fulfillment of Scriptures. 

One of my questions to my Orthodox Jewish friends is why they don't believe that the "man" who named Jacob "Israel" is God incarnate. They have understandable reasons, but I personally take Jacob/Israel at his word: (I boldened some.)

And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: 'for I have seen G-d face to face, and my life is preserved.'

- Genesis 32:31

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Genesis32.html

Also, a prophecy in Isaiah in my opinion shows that the "son" is God Incarnate. However, my Orthodox Jewish friends believe the following verse does not mean that the child is truly the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, but many Christians (and I) believe he is God and the visible representation of the everlasting Father, so there is a disagreement of interpretation here:

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. - Isaiah 9:6

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Isaiah9.html

Isaiah 7:14 says:

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Isaiah7.html

Jewish Orthodox people first of all don't believe this means the mother of the Mashiach will be a virgin because they say virgin also means young person (which is true, and young people before marriage should not be having sex). However, there is not a prophecy that requires the mother of the Mashiach to not be married. Mary was engaged to be married to Joseph, a descendant of David, which is super important to Jesus' qualifications for being the Mashiach.

Immanuel means God with us, which in the perspective of Christians = God incarnate.  Jewish Orthodox people who do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God however do not believe that Jesus is God incarnate or "God with us" - Immanuel. They believe "God with us" is not physical but rather spiritual. God is indeed always with us spiritually, but the Christians who believe Jesus Christ is "God with us" believe this is physical, and that Jesus Christ will physically return.

 

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Best regards.

Thanks :) Peace and God bless you and your loved ones

Edited by Christianlady

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Hi Shiaman 14,

 

(You said to Christianlady) Quote: Please explain what this means - "I believe Jesus Christ is the Word of God incarnated". --- Previously, either you or Placid said that the Word of God is God, so in essence Jesus is God or Jesus is the God-incarnate?

 

Christianlady responded: I believe Jesus Christ is the visible representation of God.

Jesus Christ existed before his conception in the womb, though not in the physical form of Jesus Christ.

Rather, Jesus Christ existed as the Word of God before his miraculous conception in Mary's womb.

 

Response: --- Since I saw my name mentioned I thought I should add a little.

 

I agree that “Jesus Christ was the visible representation of God,” for the 33 1/2 years on earth, but I want to explain our difference in understanding.

 

It says In John 1:

1 --- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God

2 He (the Word) was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made through Him (the Word).

 

In Genesis 1:3 God said, “Let there be light, and there was light.”

 

In this it shows that God said “Let there be,” and there ‘was’ --- God “Spoke the word” and it ‘came into being.’ --- So the Word was the “creative Power of God”

--- It says a few times in the Quran, “When God determines a thing, He simply says to it, ‘Be!’ and it is”

--- So if God ‘created’ by His Word, then we understand why His Word was with Him from the beginning, and that God created all things “Through the Word.”

 

We have established before that Almighty God is beyond our comprehension, and could never approach our earth. --- So God has sent the Word at different times to represent Him on earth.

 

Christianlady mentioned some of the times when God’s representative (the Word) appeared on earth, as in the Person of ‘Melchizedek’ in Genesis 14, who met Abraham.

--- Again as the Commander of the Army of the Lord in Joshua 5, and from there took the name, ‘the Lord of hosts,’ However, the ‘appearance was only once, --- but each time He spoke, He represented God. This was a name of God from then through Samuel and until the end of the Book of Malachi, where the name, 'the Lord of hosts,' was changed to ‘the Lord Jesus Christ,’ in the Book of Matthew, in the New Testament.

 

The other ‘appearance’ I would like to zero in on, which is mentioned in the Quran as well is in Exodus 3, ---  is the miracle of the ‘burning bush,’ which appeared on earth, in Exodus 3:

2 So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.

Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”

So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”

And he said, “Here I am.”

Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.”

Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

 

--- So here is an appearance in a burning bush, and the Voice said, “I am God.” --- So there are three elements here, --- the bush, the fire, and the Voice. --- So, which one was God?

--- The bush was natural, the fire was the element used to get Moses’ attention, --- and the Voice represented God, so was 'called' God --- (Notice it says, “God said.”)

So we can say that the Word, the Voice of God spoke out of the fire, and said, “I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”

 

 10 (He said to Moses) “Come now, therefore, and I will send you to Pharaoh that you may bring My people, the children of Israel, out of Egypt.”

11 But Moses said to God, “Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should bring the children of Israel out of Egypt?”

12 So He said, “I will certainly be with you. --- (So who would go with Moses, the bush, the fire, or the Voice?)

--- The Word as a Spiritual Being is invisible, so from then on would be ‘with’ Moses, as the Voice of God.

(I will conclude this later.)

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My mom said to me that Allah is simply just power, he has no physical form whatsoever. Allah can never be seen and will not be seen by anyone because he has no form. 

We are just Allah's creations. Allah can never be begotten. He was always there.

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:salam: 

@Christianlady You wrote: 

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Like different verses in the Bible, so a verse in the Qur'an has many different interpretations. For example, a very nice Sunni Muslim lady years ago told me I wasn't her friend anymore. :( I asked her why, and she quoted Sura 5:51. She defriended me from Facebook and cut me out of her life. :(

I was very sad and asked my some of my other Sunni Muslim friends why she did that. They said that she doesn't understand what that verse means, that they can be friends of Jews and Christians if they want to without disobeying Sura 5:51. They are still my friends because they do not interpret Sura 5:51 to mean to not take Jews and Christians as friends.

Out of curiosity, what is your interpretation of Sura 5:51? Do you believe Allah and Muhammad meant for Muslims to not take Jews and Christians as allies, or friends, or both, or neither? Thanks.

Actually, several verses were revealed in relation to Prophet's journey and how he dealt with his community as a Messenger of God. Read further and you will get the context. 

5:51 O you who believe, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies, for they are allies to one another; and whoever takes them as such from among you is one of them. God does not guide the wicked people.

5:52 You will see those who have a disease in their hearts hurrying to them, saying: "We are concerned that a disaster will befall us!" Perhaps God will bring a victory or a decree from Himself, then they will become regretful over what they had kept hidden within themselves.

5:53 And those who believe said: "Were these the ones who swore oaths by God that they are with you?" Their works have collapsed, and they have become losers.

5:54 O you who believe, whoever from among you turns away from His system, then God will bring a people whom He loves and they love Him; humble towards the believers, proud towards the rejecters; they strive in the cause of God and do not fear to be blamed by those who blame. This is the grace of God, He bestows it upon whom He wills; God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.

5:55 For your supporter are God and His messenger and those who believe; they hold the prayer and contribute towards purification, and they kneel.

5:56 And whoever allies God and His messenger and those who believe; then the party of God are the ones who will be victorious.

5:57 O you who believe, do not take as allies those who have taken your system for mockery and play from among those who have been given the Book before you and the rejecters. And be aware of God if you are believers.

5:58 And if you call to the prayer, they take it for mockery and play. That is because they are a people who do not comprehend.

5:59 Say: "O people of the Book, do you hate us simply because we believe in God and in what was sent down to us and what was sent down before?" Alas, the majority of them are wicked.

 

So, do these verses command all believers (till this day) not to befriend the Ahl al-Kitab (People of the book) or were these verses revealed to a specific community (Prophet's community) and believers at the time of the Prophet (s.a.w)? Those who mocked the system/religion (deen) and mocked the Prayer? Kindly, read the context! 

 

:ws: 

 

 
Edited by IjazLinorAhmad

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3 hours ago, IjazLinorAhmad said:

:salam: 

@Christianlady You wrote: 

Actually, several verses were revealed in relation to Prophet's journey and how he dealt with his community as a Messenger of God. Read further and you will get the context. 

5:51 O you who believe, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies, for they are allies to one another; and whoever takes them as such from among you is one of them. God does not guide the wicked people.

5:52 You will see those who have a disease in their hearts hurrying to them, saying: "We are concerned that a disaster will befall us!" Perhaps God will bring a victory or a decree from Himself, then they will become regretful over what they had kept hidden within themselves.

5:53 And those who believe said: "Were these the ones who swore oaths by God that they are with you?" Their works have collapsed, and they have become losers.

5:54 O you who believe, whoever from among you turns away from His system, then God will bring a people whom He loves and they love Him; humble towards the believers, proud towards the rejecters; they strive in the cause of God and do not fear to be blamed by those who blame. This is the grace of God, He bestows it upon whom He wills; God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.

5:55 For your supporter are God and His messenger and those who believe; they hold the prayer and contribute towards purification, and they kneel.

5:56 And whoever allies God and His messenger and those who believe; then the party of God are the ones who will be victorious.

5:57 O you who believe, do not take as allies those who have taken your system for mockery and play from among those who have been given the Book before you and the rejecters. And be aware of God if you are believers.

5:58 And if you call to the prayer, they take it for mockery and play. That is because they are a people who do not comprehend.

5:59 Say: "O people of the Book, do you hate us simply because we believe in God and in what was sent down to us and what was sent down before?" Alas, the majority of them are wicked.

 

Salam IjazLinorAhmad,

Interestingly, Muslims today have different interpretations as to this passage, as well as other passages in the Qur'an. Obviously, your interpretation is different than the sincere Sunni Muslim lady who befriended me and then defriended me when she felt convicted by Sura 5:51. Both you and her are entitled to different interpretations and why.

For example, 2 Sunni friends of mine, both awesome Muslim ladies who think it's fine to have Christian friends, strongly differ concerning wearing a head covering. My Sunni Muslim friend from Morocco condemns my Sunni Muslim friend from Turkey for not wearing a head covering. She says any woman who does not wear a head covering is a "fake Muslim" whereas my Sunni friend from Turkey believe the following passage was only for long time ago and not for today: (I boldened some in the verse below.)

And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed. (31) - Sura 24:31

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/24:31

My Sunni Muslim friend from Turkey does not wear a head covering because she does not believe Sura 24:31 is for her, whereas my Sunni Muslim friend from Morocco does wear a head covering, because she believes Sura 24:31 is for "believing women" both in Muhammad's time and nowadays too.

So, there are 2 different interpretations of this one verse. Some Muslim-dominated nations make this command a law, whereas other Muslim-dominated nations allow women to make their own choice whether they will obey Sura 24:31 or not.

The reason I commented on Sura 5:51 is because of my personal experience with another Sunni Muslim lady who at first befriended me and then unfriended me when she was convicted to obey Sura 5:51. Obviously, both my Sunni Muslim friend from Morocco and my Sunni Muslim friend from Turkey do not believe that Sura 5:51 is for them, since I am their friend. Obviously, both have 2 completely different interpretations of Sura 24:31.

Muslims differ in how they interpret verses in the Qur'an, like Christians differ in how they interpret verses in the Bible. (And yes, I know that the Muslims who disagree are often labeled as "fake" or hypocrites or apostates by those who disagree with them. I defended my Muslim friend from Turkey to my Muslim friend from Morocco because I know without a doubt that my Muslim friend from Turkey believes in Muhammad and the Qur'an. She just doesn't believe that Sura 5:51 and Sura 24:31 are commands for her and Muslims today (or Sura 9:29-30).

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So, do these verses command all believers (till this day) not to befriend the Ahl al-Kitab (People of the book) or were these verses revealed to a specific community (Prophet's community) and believers at the time of the Prophet (s.a.w)? Those who mocked the system/religion (deen) and mocked the Prayer? Kindly, read the context! 

So, do you think that the Sunni Muslim lady who defriended me because of Sura 5:51 doesn't know the context? (She does by the way wear a head covering, so she obviously thinks that Sura 24:31 is for her too, like my Muslim friend from Morocco.) 

As a Christian, I have no compulsion to believe or obey anything in the Qur'an. I believe God protected and preserved the Written Word He gave to Moses, Joshua, Samuel, King David, all the prophets He sent to the Children of Israel, and the disciples of Jesus Christ.

Peace and God bless you

 

 

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(This is a continuation of the last post to Shiaman14):

13 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”

14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

--- So the 'Voice' of the Word from heaven represented God, who was CALLED God, which Moses saw as fire in the bush, --- would now be accompanying Moses invisibly.

 

 

--- But the Word, ‘the Voice’ needed a vessel or body through which to speak to be seen and heard by men.

 

In John 8 when the Pharisees were questioning Jesus about his relationship with Abraham, the Voice through Jesus said:

56 “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

--- You see, it was the Voice of the Word that spoke through Jesus, to say, “I AM.”

 

Jesus was born of Mary on earth and the Word came down from God to indwell and ‘live through’ the body of Jesus, so the same Voice that spoke to Moses was in Jesus, and spoke through Jesus in the Gospels.

--- Because the Voice coming from Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I AM,” --- this is where the Trinitarians got the idea that Jesus had to be God, to be able to say this, --- but the Word that ‘indwelt’ Jesus from His conception, spoke through Jesus. --- Since ‘all things were made through Him (the Word), --- then the Word was with God in the creation of all things, including Adam and Abraham, as well as the Special and Unique Child, Jesus, who had no earthly father, but was from God.

 

--- So you can see where I disagree with the Trinitarians. There is no Scripture that says Jesus was in heaven before He was born on earth, and there is no verse that says, Jesus is God, or that Jesus ever said He was God.

 

--- But notice this verse in Surah 3:

45 “Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary.”

--- God gave glad tidings (Good News) of the Word from Him (God in heaven) to come to earth and be the Manifestation of God through the Person of Jesus.

 

It says quite clearly that Jesus had a human body on earth in Hebrews 10: 

5 Therefore, when He (the Word) came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.
In burnt offerings and sacrifices
for sin You had no pleasure.
Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come— In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’”

--- In (the volume of the Book of) Isaiah, where the Word is called ‘the Lord of hosts,’ He said this, in Isaiah 48:

16 “Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit Have sent Me.”

 

--- So the Lord God and His Holy Spirit sent the Word to earth. --- Notice then that ‘the Lord God’ SENT the Word, --- and the Word as a servant, was obedient.

 

‘So ‘when He (the Word) came into the world, He said, “A body You (God) have prepared for Me.”

--- And the body was the human body of Jesus. --- So the Word came from heaven to indwell the human body of Jesus, and, if you want to say it this way, ‘Jesus was 100% human, and the Word was 100% Divine,’ from heaven.

 

It clarifies this again in Hebrews 2:

9 “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.”

 

--- Had Jesus been God He couldn’t have died. --- Had Jesus come as an angel, He could have taught the disciples and done all of the miracles but as an angel He couldn’t die. --- But it says, “We see Jesus, who was made ‘a little lower than the angels,’ for the suffering of death (that was why He came). --- And He was resurrected, ‘and crowned with honor and glory,’ because He had been obedient as the ‘sacrifice,’ or ‘sin bearer,’ for all mankind who were identified as being ‘disobedient’ because of the sin of Adam

 

--- It says in Romans 5:

18 “Therefore, as through one man’s offense (Adam) judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act (Jesus Christ) the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.”

 

 You may want to ask WHY? --- But it is a much longer explanation than just a few pages.

 

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9 hours ago, Christianlady said:

As a Christian, I have no compulsion to believe or obey anything in the Qur'an. I believe God protected and preserved the Written Word He gave to Moses, Joshua, Samuel, King David, all the prophets He sent to the Children of Israel, and the disciples of Jesus Christ.
 

Actually, that is not the case with the Bible. All these scriptures were essentially stepping stones until the ultimate word of God, the Qur'an was revealed. The scriptures that make up the Bible became distorted and altered by the people of the respective time period, and they had no protection. The Qur'an contains the real truth. It's the latest and greatest book of guidance. There is no other holy scripture that has extreme protection from modification by Allah except for the Qu'ran. If you actually look at all the other scriptures of other religions and then look at the Qur'an, you will see that the Qu'ran is the only religious scripture that hasn't been modified a single bit and is the only truth to the whole world. Islam is the final religion revealed to mankind and it outdates Judaism and Christianity. Plus the Qur'an is a living miracle to mankind. It is ahead of science, the scientific discoveries actually are supporting the Qur'an. The Qur'an contains no faults and no errors in it whatsoever.

Edited by pwwnd123

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3 hours ago, pwwnd123 said:

Actually, that is not the case with the Bible. All these scriptures were essentially stepping stones until the ultimate word of God, the Qur'an was revealed. The scriptures that make up the Bible became distorted and altered by the people of the respective time period, and they had no protection. The Qur'an contains the real truth. It's the latest and greatest book of guidance. There is no other holy scripture that has extreme protection from modification by Allah except for the Qu'ran. If you actually look at all the other scriptures of other religions and then look at the Qur'an, you will see that the Qu'ran is the only religious scripture that hasn't been modified a single bit and is the only truth to the whole world. Islam is the final religion revealed to mankind and it outdates Judaism and Christianity. Plus the Qur'an is a living miracle to mankind. It is ahead of science, the scientific discoveries actually are supporting the Qur'an. The Qur'an contains no faults and no errors in it whatsoever.

Actually, that's not the case either. Islam was the first religion and all of the Prophets knew it and wrote it. Stepping stones through history, yes, but not in the sense of God's basic laws. The Quran isn't actually the last set of rules, but a reiteration of the original laws, and updates the original laws by means of correcting faulty doctrines, and filling in the Biblical blanks.

To say God could not protect His scripture until the Quran came along is like designing a cart then looking for the horse that used to pull it.

Discrediting the Bible, (for the sake of the Quran) could prove to be more of a challenge than you are prepared to back up.

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^mm are you still able to edit this? Or copy and paste into a new post and I can hide this one.

Your arguments can be made with more credibility if they are more sensibly expressed. If I still see this here in an hour, I'll have to hide it.

One hour later

OK I have had to hide it.

Edited by Haji 2003

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Hi,

To say that Islam was the first religion, --- has to be understood from the meaning of the word.

"Islam" means 'Surrender' or 'submission unto God.'

It speaks plainly about what it means in Surah 2:

132 "The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him)."

133 "Or were ye present when death came to Jacob, when he said unto his sons: What will ye worship after me? They said: We shall worship thy God, the God of thy fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, One God, and unto Him we have surrendered.

And this is repeated about each prophet and ministry from Abraham to Muhammad, as it says here:

2:136 "Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered."

 

This is why I believe these original teachings in the Quran, because they confirm the truth, and verify the authenticity of the former Scriptures, because they are repeated so often in the Quran as the history from Adam to the Apostles of Jesus. 

--- What did Muhammad believe? --- The Quran says, he believed all the Scriptures, and he was 'surrendered unto God.' 

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I might add that no believer will be accepted by God unless they surrender to His will. Noah was surrendered to God and obedient to Him in spite of the opposition when he built the Ark on dry land.

Abraham was surrendered to God and obedient to Him when he was instructed to sacrifice his son Isaac. 

--- Though many of the great leaders failed at times they each came back to rededicate their lives to God, in renewed surrender and obedience to Him.

 

The exception was one who should have been completely surrendered to God, but wasn’t, --- and that was Adam. --- (It explains the offense in Surah 7 and other places.)

 

 

Because he was the beginning of the new order of ‘being,’ his life support system was the Holy Spirit of God. --- He only had this one adversary to overcome, but he disobeyed God and became unholy. --- Once he lost the holiness he was created with, --- the Holy Spirit had to withdraw from Adam and Eve, and their new life support system was a flesh and blood body like the animals had.

 

Adam and Eve admitted their sin and repented and God forgave them, but they could not return to their state of holiness, --- so their children were born on earth with their human nature, which we have today.

 

And it explains the result in Romans 5:

18 “Therefore, as through one man’s offense (Adam) judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act (Jesus Christ) the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.”

 

However, nobody has to believe this if they don’t want to, --- you no doubt have your own plan of salvation, --- so you can just leave the plan of redemption through Jesus Christ to us Christians, --- because it was to the Christians that it was given.

 

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On 12/28/2015 at 10:57 PM, pwwnd123 said:

Actually, that is not the case with the Bible. All these scriptures were essentially stepping stones until the ultimate word of God, the Qur'an was revealed. The scriptures that make up the Bible became distorted and altered by the people of the respective time period, and they had no protection.

Salam Pwwnd123,

I do not believe that God allows His Word to become "distorted and altered" because the Creator is omnipotent and promised to protect His Word. Jesus Christ clearly confirmed the Scripture God gave to the Children of Israel, and fulfills/will fulfill the Law the Prophets: (I boldened some.)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." - Matthew 5:17-18 (NIV)

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The Qur'an contains the real truth. It's the latest and greatest book of guidance.

The Qur'an dictacted or written by one man, whereas the Bible spans centuries and is written and dictated by many prophets of God. People can of course choose what they believe and why. Personally, I believe that God is omnipotent and protects the Word He gave to the Children of Israel, and that God is omnipotent and protects the Word He gave to the disciples of Jesus Christ.

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There is no other holy scripture that has extreme protection from modification by Allah except for the Qu'ran

 

I disagree. I believe God has protected the Word He gave to Moses, Joshua, the prophets, and the disciples of Jesus Christ. While there are slight variance, they do not change the message God gave to the Children of Israel.

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If you actually look at all the other scriptures of other religions and then look at the Qur'an, you will see that the Qu'ran is the only religious scripture that hasn't been modified a single bit and is the only truth to the whole world.

It is a part of Islamic history that Caliph Uthman burned variances of the Qur'an. It is also a part of Islamic history and the present that there are huge differences in interpretations of verses in the Qur'an, which affects the Middle East even to this day. This is why Muslims are sadly killing other Muslims even as we write. :( 

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Islam is the final religion revealed to mankind and it outdates Judaism and Christianity.

There are other religions "revealed to mankind" that people follow after Islam was revealed, including Mormonism in the USA.

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Plus the Qur'an is a living miracle to mankind. It is ahead of science, the scientific discoveries actually are supporting the Qur'an. The Qur'an contains no faults and no errors in it whatsoever.

Atheists disagree with both the Qur'an and the Bible being "scientific" documents because neither book gives specific scientific details. The reason why scientists have made great gains in technology advancement is due to personal observation and experimentation, which is why many scientists do not quote from either the Bible or the Qur'an, but rather quote from their own research. 

Peace and God bless you

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On 12/16/2015 at 10:00 AM, mightymask said:

To be honest i cant be friends with Jews and Christians, their social life and their interests and their doings, would cause me to go astray

Salam/Shalom/Peace Mightymask,

 

I am friends with Muslims, Jewish Orthodox people, Jewish Reformers, Jewish Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, and Agnostics, and none have led me astray. Rather, they have helped me grow in my relationship with Jesus Christ, since I know Jesus Christ loves all of them and Christians too! :)

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They go to bars, they eat food at places we cant eat, they drink alcohol and drinks we cant drink, they even take drugs which do not interest Muslims in general , they date and hang around with women, they swear, lie, backbite, dress inappropriately(the women) and last but not least, dont ever get into political arguments with them(specifically the Jews) it just leads to animosity and argument which benefits nobody 

Not every Jew or Christian does the above. Muslims as well are diverse and some do date and hang around with women, as well as do what you listed above, though of course not all Muslims do.

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However it doesnt mean we cant talk and be respectful of one another, or that we need to fight one another or hate each other, respect is given regardless, and living in coexistence and harmony and tolerance with one another is obvious 

 

Amen :) It is so important to agree to disagree and live respectfully with each other, since all humans are all the Creation of God.
 

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But to be friends with them is next to impossible due to their lifestyles

We pray 5 times a day, we fast often, we go mosques and lectures often, we have very different view points on almost everything about life and death and all of this clashes with them, and even if you tried to be friends it wouldn't last long because of all the friction at these issues, either they are stopping you or you are stopping them in your daily activities and nobody gets anywhere in the end 

 

Well, many Muslims disagree with you, including my Muslim friends who think it's fine to be friends with Christians and Jews. I'm glad they do, cause I was very sad when defriended by a Muslim lady because of Sura 5:51. I am glad my Muslim friends disagreed with her interpretation when I asked them about it.

So do you believe that Muhammad meant Sura 5:51 for all Muslims then? From what it seems, the majority of Shia Muslims don't believe Sura 5:51 is for Muslims today, correct?  Thanks.

Peace and God bless you

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O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. [5:51]

Yes i believe 100% in this , i have been friends with Christians , and from that experience i know that this verse is 100% truth , they live their lives according to their whims , and they are never truly your friend. What they hold deeop down inside themselves and what they really think of you they will never say, they will be your friend for personal interests and that's it

God speaks the truth, and you think i am going to ridicule God's Quran by taking your word over God's ?

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7 minutes ago, mightymask said:

O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. [5:51]

Yes i believe 100% in this , i have been friends with Christians , and from that experience i know that this verse is 100% truth , they live their lives according to their whims , and they are never truly your friend. What they hold deeop down inside themselves and what they really think of you they will never say, they will be your friend for personal interests and that's it

God speaks the truth, and you think i am going to ridicule God's Quran by taking your word over God's ?

Salam/Shalom/Peace Mightymask,

Why do you think that many Muslims (both Shia and Sunni) do not believe that Sura 5:51 is for today? Thanks for answering my question.

Peace and God bless you

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2 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

Salam/Shalom/Peace Mightymask,

Why do you think that many Muslims (both Shia and Sunni) do not believe that Sura 5:51 is for today? Thanks for answering my question.

Peace and God bless you

Thanks for reminding me of that verse, now its my signature 

Many Muslims do believe in that , i know many Muslims who dont take Christians and Jews as friends, perhaps for political correctness they would say otherwise , but i have HAD Christian friends
and being with them took me away from faith and religion , they cause a Godly person to go astray , your Christian population is a deeply deeply sinning population indulging in every sin, and if you cant see that , well then you must have lost your eye sight really early on in life 

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29 minutes ago, mightymask said:

Thanks for reminding me of that verse, now its my signature 

 

Salam Mightymask,

I'm curious, why not add this verse from the Qur'an to your signature too?

Indeed, those who have believed [in Prophet Muhammad] and those [before Him] who were Jews or Sabeans or Christians - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve. - Sura 5:69

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Many Muslims do believe in that , i know many Muslims who dont take Christians and Jews as friends, perhaps for political correctness they would say otherwise , but i have HAD Christian friends

Why did you used to have Christian friends?
 

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and being with them took me away from faith and religion , they cause a Godly person to go astray , your Christian population is a deeply deeply sinning population indulging in every sin, and if you cant see that , well then you must have lost your eye sight really early on in life 


 

Every population is sadly a "deeply sinning population" because sin sadly tempts people in every country, including Muslim-dominated countries.

Peace and God bless you

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Hi Mightymask,

 

I have been reading all that was written on the other topic, with interest, and I recognize the sentiment that a lot of Muslims have toward what is called Christianity.

 

When I came on Shiachat about ten years ago, --- Some time after the destruction of the Twin Towers in 9/11, I said I wanted to learn about Islam. A Moderator at that time said, “If you want to learn about Islam, read the Quran.” --- I did that, and began to study it. I was pleased to find that it contains so much of the OT, especially about Abraham and Moses. --- Then the Gospel message and miracles of Jesus and these words in Surah 3:

50 "And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a Sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me."

 

So while Jesus said that in the presence of the Jews when He was on earth, it was telling them something that the Muslims might be interested in noticing.

--- And this is what He said, --- ‘He come, confirming as true, the Scriptures before Him,’ meaning the Old Testament given to the Jews. --- AND TO MAKE LAWFUL SOME OF THAT WHICH WAS FORBIDDEN UNTO THEM.

 

Now what could that mean, except what it said. --- So, the New Covenant, or the New Testament was the new set of ‘PRINCIPLES’ to follow. --- No longer the ‘Letter of the Law’ but the new Spiritual Law written in the heart. ---

--- This was Prophesied in Jeremiah 31, and is repeated as the fulfilment in Hebrews 8:

7 "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

 

This has to be the thinking of those who call themselves Christian, --- Jesus Christ came to bring changes, and the Apostles who continued after Jesus ascended, taught these changes. --- This is the lifestyle of Christians, that they believe in God and have the testimony of Jesus in their hearts.

 

I want to write a few posts on different subject that you have mentioned which you can ponder, as well as others who may respond. --- I would like you to consider the difference between believing Christians, and the people of the world, who might live in what used to be called a Christian country.

 

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Hi Mightymask,

 

Second Post: --- What I said in the first post is that the New Covenant is the New Message for those who believe in God and follow Jesus, --- so you can’t make comparisons to the OT, except for the prophecies that were revealed to the Prophets and were fulfilled in the Gospels. --- We believe the OT, but we live by the NT.

 

I have read the Quran, and my main interest was to see how similar the Quran is to the Gospels.  The evidence is that all of the Surahs were in writing before Muhammad’s death, and it was Ali, Muhammad’s son-in-law, that put them all together after Muhammad’s death. --- When Ali finished it all, he took it to the two who were vying for leadership, Abu Bakr, and Umar. --- When Ali offered it to them, they rejected it saying “We have our own.” on which Ali said, “then you will never see this again.”

 

So the original complete Quran was hidden, and the Quran we have today was finally put together, though not in perfect order, by men other than Ali. --- Ali was rejected by the other so called ‘companions’ of Muhammad. --- The later Quran was made from the collection of written Surahs that Abu Bakr had, --- and some Surahs coming from the memory of people, --- and they were in the hands of men for the next 20 years, before the Caliphate came to Uthman. --- One man edited it and Uthman gathered 3 more to check it all, mostly to confirm the work of the first writer. --- However, Ali was not among those though he would have had it memorized. --- So we can see that the leadership got off to a shaky start. 

 

However, this is the Quran we have today and I am not disappointed with it because those who seek wisdom and are guided by the Spirit of God will find what God wants to reveal to them, --- regardless of discrepancies.

 

However, when we are talking about “What Muhammad believed.” --- We can be sure he would have believed the first Quran that was compiled from the revelations given through him, would he not? --- So let’s consider some of what he taught. --- We might begin with the ‘Four Pillars of Islam’ which were the ‘Four Pillars of Faith’ in the OT.

 

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This was intended in response to statements by Mightymask, if he is still reading, --- or for others who may want to comment or give added information.,

 

Third Post: --- I have a little Book on the Five Pillars of Islam and the first Four Pillars of Islam are the same as the Four Pillars of Faith in the OT, and through the Gospels. ---There is only one true Religion, the Surrender of our will, to God’s will and purpose for our lives. --- And the first Pillar is Faith.

 

Quote: The religion of Islam demands of its believers, first, Iman, Faith: which their theologians define as “Confession with the tongue and belief with the heart.”

The fuller form of this confession is,”I believe in God, His angels, His Books, His prophets; in the Last Day, in the predestination by the Most High God of good and evil, and in the Resurrection after death”

 

This can be found online as an original testimony of belief. The Book says it comes from the word “Tashahhud,” confession. --- This word derives from an Arabic root which yields the meaning “Testify,” --- so that strictly speaking a Muslim’s confession of faith, takes the form of a testimony.

 

 

The wording of the confession is taken from verses like these in Surah 2:

285 The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys." 

 

136"We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah in surrender.

 

--- I did a study to find out when it was changed, and I have forgotten exactly, but it was about the time of the sixth or seventh Imam, that the theologians had a meeting and decided to shorten it. (It may not have changed all at once, but it was reduced to what is now the Kalima, or Shahada), --- which doesn’t express a ‘heartfelt testimony,’ but is simply a statement, or a creed. --- It may not have been intended that way, but it has been used to divide any unity we had, and tends to exalt what is called ‘Islam,’ --- the name that simply means “surrender.”

 

It is presented as though everyone should “Surrender” to Islam, instead of each one’s “Surrender” to God.

 

Muslims say, in certain variations, “There is no god but God, and Muhammad is the Prophet of God.” --- The Jews could say, “There is no god but God, And Moses is the Prophet of God.” --- And the Christians could say, “There is no god but God, and Jesus is the Prophet of God.”

 

(No offense or dispute intended, but noting this change that was made.) 

 

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Post four: --- To continue with the First Pillar of Faith, which is the same for Christians as for Muslims,   which means: --- “Giving testimony of one’s Faith.”

 

I am interested in the wording of the Theologians, “Confession with the tongue and belief with the heart.” --- I don’t find that in any verse in the Quran and perhaps only used once in the NT in Romans 10:

9 “That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”

 

So it seems that the Muslim “Confession” is harmonious with the Christian “Confession,” is it not? --- Only the emphasis is not on salvation.

--- It says, “Confession with the mouth --- and believe with the heart.”

 

10 says, “For with the heart one believes, and with the mouth confession is made.”

 

 

This is emphasized to Christians in the Gospels because Jesus said in Matthew 10:

32 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.

33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. 

 

Another thing mentioned in the Confession of Faith was the ‘Last Day,’ meaning the day of judgment of reward for the righteous and destruction of the wicked.

As the longer confession was, --- quote: ”I believe in God, His angels, His Books, His prophets; in the Last Day, in the predestination by the Most High God of good and evil, and in the Resurrection after death”

 

We have an expansion on this belief in Surah 2:

177 --- “Righteous is he who believeth in God and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God-fearing.”

 

True believing Christians can comply with this, because this is what Jesus taught before Muhammad. --- You see, this is all part of the Surrender unto God.

 

--- And I want to add this from Mr Pickthall’s intro to Surah 2:

Quote: “All through the Surah runs the note of warning, which sounds indeed throughout the whole Quran, that it is not the mere profession of a creed, but righteous conduct which is true religion. There is the repeated announcement that the religion of Abraham, to which Judaism and Christianity trace their origin, is the only true religion. And that that religion consists in the surrender of man’s will and purpose to the Will and Purpose of the Lord of Creation as manifested in His creation and revealed by way of guidance through successive Prophets. Of sincerety in that religion the one test is conduct, and the standard of that religion is for all alike.”

 

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Post five: --- Since the verbal attack on how 'that' Muslim, and perhaps some others see the rest of the world and relate the wickedness and immorality to Christians, as though they are the offenders of the Scriptures, --- I want to make a few more points that are seldom, if ever, mentioned. 

 

--- Considering what has been written above: ---If we ‘confess with our mouth’ our Faith because ‘we believe it in our hearts,’ --- it is because we have ‘surrendered’ unto God. --- And those who are truly surrendered among Christians receive the Holy Spirit in their hearts to guide them. --- Many young people are called to go out as witnesses and Missionaries, to foreign lands where others have never heard the Good News of salvation, --- that God loves them and has a plan for their lives.

 

How many times have we heard criticism of Christian missionaries, even here on Shiachat?

--- Yes. Many times, have we not?

 

So this prompts the question, “What did Muhammad teach about Missionaries?”

 

After the Hijrah to Madina, Surah 8 was revealed in year 2, and it gives these words in Surah 8:

72 Lo! those who believed and left their homes and strove with their wealth and their lives for the cause of Allah, and those who took them in and helped them: these are protecting friends one of another.

--- This is what Missionaries do when they go out in the cause of God. They rely on friends and other believers to support them

 

Surah 9 was revealed in year nine of the Hijrah, a year before Muhammad’s death. --- By this time the Muslims had come back to Mecca and removed the 360 idols from the Kabah, the House of Prayer and were again established worship, and using it as their Holy place,

--- Here Muhammad was setting up the new Government and giving the idolaters fair warning, saying to them, --- you either must accept our Faith, leave the country, or run the risk of being killed as enemies of God. --- It says in 9:

28 O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year.--- (Till year 10)

 

--- But some idolaters were still working or serving in the Mosque so Muhammad said in 9

17 It is not for such as join gods with God (the idolaters), to visit or maintain the mosques of God while they witness against their own souls to infidelity. The works of such bear no fruit: In Fire shall they dwell.  

18 The mosques of God shall be visited and maintained by such as believe in God and the Last Day, establish regular prayers, and practice regular charity, and fear none (at all) except God. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance.

 

--- (True Christians can identify with these guidelines, because that is the order of our Church program.) --- We believe in God and the Last Day. --- We have regular prayers in each service, --- we have personal and private prayers, and a mid-week prayer meeting.

Regular giving is a part of the program in tithes and offerings, and special needs are met by the generosity of people.

 

Notice the three pillars --- Faith in God, regular prayers, and regular giving, --- and fasting is done by individuals, and occasionally as a Church body or a group, by mutual agreement.  --- (The fourth pillar) 

 

--- So here, near the end of Muhammad’s Mission, he is establishing the right principles and dispelling idolaters from Mecca. --- But this is not expelling Jews or Christians because they believe in God. and practice their religion. --- It mentions later that they were required to pay a special tax, but everyone pays taxes one way or another. .

 

--- And the Surah goes on to say about those who serve in the Mosque, Surah 9:

19 Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in God and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of God? They are not comparable in the sight of God: and God guides not those who do wrong. --- (With reference to idolaters.)

 

20 Those who believe, and suffer exile and strive with might and main, in God's cause, with their goods and their persons, have the highest rank in the sight of God: they are the people who will achieve (salvation).

21 Their Lord doth give them glad tidings of a Mercy from Himself, of His good pleasure, and of gardens for them, wherein are delights that endure:

22 They will dwell therein for ever. Verily in God's presence is a reward, the greatest (of all).

 

This speaks as though Missionaries receive special blessings because of their sacrifice.

--- (I enjoy reading these things that Muhammad taught, which are Christian principles that have been practiced ever since Jesus sent out the Apostles.)

 

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Post six: --- Let’s go to the second Pillar of Prayer. --- It is interesting how so many Muslims say they believe in Jesus but reject the Gospels, as though they can claim a relationship with Jesus, but not accept what He did and taught.

 

--- ‘That’ Muslim said he ‘prayed like Jesus.’

 

We can easily find some of what Jesus said about prayer as it is written in Matthew 6:

5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.”

 

--- So Jesus said, we are not to make a show of praying to God because it is a communication between the person and God, and should not be a display before others.

--- The hypocrites who pray openly BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BE SEEN BY MEN, --- they are seen by men, so that is their reward.

 

But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.

 

--- The more alone one can be with God when praying, the closer the communion seems to be. When we are aware that God sees and knows everything we do, the best we can do is pray privately, even silently at times, and let God speak to us. --- As we empty ourselves of ‘self’ --- we can be filled with His Holy Spirit, --- and the blessings we receive from private times with God energize us to share these blessings with others.

--- There are many lessons on prayer, but the best lesson is to be constantly praying. --- There are the quiet times alone, then one can pray with their eyes open while walking down the street or driving a car. --- The Scripture says, “Pray without ceasing” which can be understood as being ‘always in the attitude of prayer.’ --- God hears everything we say, so through the day we can be praying for others as we meet them or work with them, --- and a ‘praying person’ has a positive and pleasant attitude.

It is hard to be angry and be praying, so the times of anger are usually ‘selfish’ times.

 

Another Scripture verse says, “Praying always with all prayer and supplication, in the Spirit.” --- Prayers of petition and supplication involve praying for needs for ourselves, and others. Then there is intercession, --- praying for others, and praying with others. Then there are prayers of thanksgiving, --- Then there are our five daily prayers, --- early in the morning when we get up, a prayer at each meal, and a prayer at bedtime. --- Some have family prayers, as well as their private devotions..

--- Then we have our prayers before and during our Church Service for the sick and needy --- then a closing hymn and prayer at the end of the meeting.--- There are mid week prayer meetings by different groups in a Church, so most everything that is done is ‘bathed’ in prayer. 

But one more thing, It said “Praying always with all prayer and supplication IN THE SPIRIT.” --- Now what does that mean? --- Well it depends on what denominational Church you might attend. --- It can mean praying in harmony, in the spirit of the fellowship, --- It can mean feeling the Holy Spirit in the Church Service, or it can be the feeling of the Holy Spirit within a person, --- Also the ‘supplication’ in the Spirit is asking God for the Gifts or blessing of the Holy Spirit because the  Scripture says that we are to pray for the ‘infilling of the Holy Spirit, to be used in His service. --- You see, when we are uplifted in the Spirit we are yielded to God to fill us like empty vessels.

 

I’m sure it is a completely different world that what the Muslims know as prayer, is it not?      

 

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Post seven: --- To continue with Jesus and His teaching on prayer, in Luke 11:

1 Now it came to pass, as He was praying in a certain place, when He ceased, that one of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.”

 

And Jesus taught them the prayer that is called “The Lord’s Prayer,” and has been used around the world and is still used by Christians and Churches today, --- in Matthew 6:

 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
10 
Your kingdom come. Your will be done
On earth as it is
in heaven.
11 
Give us this day our daily bread.
12 
And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.
13 
And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

 

This is the model prayer for Christians, --- Not always using the same words but as we feel led to pray.--- First glorifying God. --- Then praying that His ‘will’ be done on earth. --- We pray for our daily needs, --- and then ask forgiveness from God for our trespasses against God and others. --- Then that God will lead us away from temptation. And deliver us from the evils of the devil, who is always trying to hinder our walk with the Lord. --- And a benediction acknowledging that God’s kingdom, and power, and glory are forever.

 

If one says “He prays like Jesus,” he would have to start out like Jesus does, --- and as He taught us to do, by saying, --- “Our Father in heaven.”

 

--- Can a Muslim do that? --- If we acknowledge that we are children of God, we can do that. --- Is there anyone on earth who is not a child of God by creation? --- However, by their actions they have denounced God and become ‘children of the devil,’ as Jesus told the Pharisees in John 8:

44You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him.”

 

We need to acknowledge God and submit our way to Him in all things, in prayer.

 

The ‘seven oft repeated’ have been referred to as ‘The Lord’s Prayer of the Muslims,’ and it is very close to the prayer of Jesus, is it not? --- From Surah 1:

1 In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

2 Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,

3 The Beneficent, the Merciful.

4 Master of the Day of Judgment,

5 Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help.

6 Show us the straight path,

7 The path of those whom Thou hast favored; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.

 

If this is prayed sincerely, I am sure God will hear it.

 

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Post eight: --- To continue with prayer. How did Muhammad pray?

 

It is interesting that the Jewish leaders had told the immoral idolaters at Yathrib (which became Al-Madinah, meaning, ‘The City), that some day a Messenger would come to the Arabs and bring them back to God, --- and at one of the Pilgrimages some heard Muhammad speak, and believed that this was the Messenger, so when he did come the Jews welcomed him, expecting him to be in harmony with them, and kind of ‘work under their umbrella.’ --- Things went well for a while, but when Muhammad started teaching the ‘brotherhood of men’ and saying that anyone who believed in one God and followed Him could be saved, or be right with God. --- This gave the understanding that the lowest Arab who put Faith in the God of heaven, could be on the same level as the Jews. --- So they rejected this and began to take offence and criticize his message, --- but they took consolation in the fact that Muhammad, and the new Muslims were facing Jerusalem when they prayed.

 

This went on for a time with the Jews thinking that Muhammad was confused and that they had the right message, so they continued to oppose him, and this happened in a message to Muhammad in year one or two, in Madinah in Surah 2:

144 We have seen the turning of thy face to heaven (for guidance, O Muhammad). And now verily We shall make thee turn (in prayer) toward a qiblah which is dear to thee. So turn thy face toward the Inviolable Place of Worship, and ye (O Muslims), wheresoever ye may be, turn your faces (when ye pray) toward it. Lo! Those who have received the Scripture know that (this revelation) is the Truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.

 

What does this say? --- We (God) have seen the turning of your face to heaven, --- FOR GUIDANCE, --- O Muhammad. --- This was a fairly common way to pray in the OT, when the Prophets spoke to God, they looked up and raised their hands to God. --- This can be an attitude of worship, or an attitude of seeking God’s help, --- and this is what Muhammad was doing. He was seeking God’s help in the growing problem he was having with the Jews.

 

Did God give Muhammad an answer? --- Yes, an unexpected change that would cut ties with the Jews. --- “And now verily We shall make thee turn (in prayer) toward a qiblah which is dear to thee. So turn thy face toward the Inviolable Place of Worship,”

 

This was the first indication to Muhammad that he would one day return to Mecca, but in the meantime he would face Mecca when he prayed. --- But then the Lord spoke again and said this later in Surah 2:

177 It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God-fearing.

 

I want you to think back to where we heard the first part of  this verse before.

 

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On 12/8/2015 at 7:53 PM, Christianlady said:

Salam/Shalom/Peace, 

All my Muslim friends say that Muhammad did not believe that God is our "Father in Heaven."

All my Muslim friends do not believe that Jesus Christ fulfilled Isaiah 53 and saved us from our transgressions through his suffering and death.

All of my Muslim friends say that Muhammad did not believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross and resurrected from the dead.

In my opinion, the Qur'an and the hadiths clearly show that Muhammad rejected these beliefs of Christians. Is that accurate to say?

Thanks so much.

Peace and God bless you

:salam:

Yes, that's accurate. The entire ummah say Allah or (en. God). We never use the word Father to address the Almighty God. 

God bless!

Edited by Ismail Hanif

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Post Nine: --- Do you remember where we heard the first of this verse before?

177 It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God-fearing.

 

In Post 3, I mentioned a booklet I have on the “Five Pillars of Islam, where it said:

Quote: The religion of Islam demands of its believers, first, Iman, Faith: which their theologians define as “Confession with the tongue and belief with the heart.”

The fuller form of this confession is,”I believe in God, His angels, His Books, His prophets; in the Last Day, in the predestination by the Most High God of good and evil, and in the Resurrection after death”

 

Christianlady, I wonder if you want to see how man parts of this verse we believe and practice as Christians.

 

 

177 It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West;

--- While Muhammad was instructed to face Mecca, rather than Jerusalem when he and the Muslims prayed, ---but , God is saying, the way we face, or the position we are in when we pray has nothing to do with ‘righteousness,’ does it?’

 

 

--- But righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; --- Do we not both believe that?

 

And gives wealth, for love of Him (God), --- Is it not because of God’s love for us and our love for Him that we give to others in the expression of ‘loving our neighbor? --- Do we not both believe that?

 

(We give to) kinsfolk (relatives) to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask. --- We are generous with our money and give as God leads us, do we not?

 

‘And to set slaves free,’ --- have you ever given to a cause to help set someone free, or to pay their debt, or their fine?  I am sure with your loving nature you have done that, have you not? And I have as well. --- So we agree in helping those we can?

 

And observe proper worship, --- This is one of the wonderful parts of our Church Program, don’t you agree?

 

And pay the ‘poor-due,’ we give tithes and offerings to the Church, and special offerings for the immediate needs of people. --- Do you agree that we do that willingly?

 

 And those who keep their treaty when they make one. --- If we are honest and trustworthy, we do keep our word and fulfill our agreements, do you agree with that?

 

‘And are patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress.’ --- These are the constant problems of our day, are they not? --- And don’t we handle them best by taking them to the Lord in prayer? --- Do you agree with that?

 

And “Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God-fearing.”

--- (So the reward is to those who are obedient, is it not?)

 

 

Christianlady, if you agree with these things as a rather good testimony of how Christians walk with the Lord, --- would you like to take them to your Muslim friends and ask them if they believe in God, the angels, the prophets and the Scriptures as they were taught to in the first teaching Surah in Madinah?

 

This is what Muhammad would have taught them, because by writing this in the Quran, it confirms that Muslims are to believe the OT, because the Quran says the former Scriptures are true. --- Do you agree with that? --- I do.

 

 

 

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Hi Christianlady,

 

Do you have any comments on these values that Muhammad taught, which are so similar to Christian values?

Had he not believed what was given to him to teach, God would have removed him. --- His Mission was to remove idolatry and bring people back to the worship of God.

Muhammad has been compared by some to Martin Luther, who wanted to resolve the many problems of the organized Church on the inside, and bring people back to the true worship of God.

Martin Luther was rejected as well and had to work from outside to bring reforms, and restore the smaller local Churches and congregations. --- They were both successful in their Mission, but after Muhammad's death, the people were divided on leadership and some went back to their old warlike ways, which could not be blamed on Muhammad, --- He had brought a 'Pease' to the Arab people before he died.

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