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In the Name of God بسم الله

Alcohol - philosophically

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  • Veteran Member
Posted (edited)

Why is alcohol forbidden if one is able to maintain the balance and not abuse it?

Don't go all muqtada on me. I know the jurisprudence and verses from the Qu'ran.

I am looking for more philosophical or scientific reasoning?

There are A LOT of things that are halal that are far worse than alcohol....

Edited by Haji 2003
  • Advanced Member
Posted

If you need alcohol to stir a sense of enlightenment within yourself, then obviously you do not have the capacity to think reflectively on your own (this is not directed at you, but the general "you"). What I know so far, scientifically, is that alcohol use is extremely dangerous for the development occurring during young adolescence, and will lead to abuse later in life.

  • Veteran Member
Posted

There are over 10,000+ people that die every year due to DUI incidents in the US alone because people think they can maintain balance and not abuse it.

And I believe the ban is on all intoxicants. 

There may be halal things that are worse for ourselves but intoxication impacts others.

  • Veteran Member
Posted (edited)

That balance doesn't coexists with an enjoyable experience. There are people who are somewhat lucky or haven't happened to get involved too much with alcohol. But the fact is that the balance doesn't exists. It is a drug, and a very serious and dangerous one actually. You start with a couple of beers, then some wine during meals, and end up in a gathering at night drinking more serious stuff that get you drunk before you even realize (because this is how alcohol is). And the balance thing would translate into being thinking and obsessing about it too much. You can't relax nor have fun while your mind is thinking "how much have I been drinking?". It is just not worth it, because as far as I know, one drinks alcohol either for the pleasure it gives or the taste it has (or both). Obsessing about it to keep a balance won't make you enjoy it. So it is better to avoid it at all, seriously. I know it is very present in many cultures, but it is still a drug that is harmful.

And by the way, as most drugs, the pleasure is real at the first times, but then it becomes a nightmare.

 

Btw LCM, this isn't just a religious issue but a tangible human challenge. Alcohol has been condemned and even suggested to be banned by certain atheist personalities (due to its link to crimes). I don't think muslims are too concerned with alcohol, but that culture has legitimized it way too much, to the point that in some places you can't even socialize and make friends if you dont drink. I see it a real cruelty.

Edited by Bakir
  • Advanced Member
Posted

I was interpreting it as a religious/ historical question, though. 

In all seriousness, we ban alcohol at our tribal functions. (And you do not have to take the wine at church,btw)

  • Veteran Member
Posted

All great replies. Thank you. 

Does alcohol then not become a subjective issue? 

Not everyone who drinks is an alcoholic, right? I think that number is greatly exaggerated.

  • Advanced Member
Posted

No, not everyone who drinks is an alcoholic or will become one.  However, Maintaining the balance and not abusing it can prove difficult, as with many things. It can change your body chemistry and create dependency. How easy depends on the person. The person often doesn't find out until too late. 

Alcohol is readily available here so we have to choose not to drink. The sale of alcohol is banned on many reservations and the community would like some of the stores on the border-towns to stop selling alcohol,too ,to decrease easy access to those struggling with alcoholism. 

I can only tell you that objectively it has become a huge issue in the native community and the damage it has done would be hard to over-estimate. From fetal alcohol syndrome to drunk driving. My daughter had to report a drunk driver just the other night who had smashed into cars ( fortunately parked and empty) before tearing off. That person might not be alcoholic, either, but even a one-time drunk can make some pretty bad mistakes. One of my relatives got T-boned in an intersection by some kids out drunken joy-riding and ended up in the hospital for a month while most of his bones healed. The kids were okay after the crash , they just didn't think they were as impaired as they were. The alcohol had messed with their judgment.  It's a rough beast to keep under control, IMHO.

  • Veteran Member
Posted

Well the Bektashi generally permit alcohol but forbid drunkenness and the dervishes don't seem much less pious than many non-Bektashi.

In the past many Islamic scholars resigned themselves to accepting alcohol in Islamic societies because it was so prevalent among certain classes of people in those societies. So they came up with all sorts rulings about how to deal with a problem that just wouldn't go away.

Even today in countries that supposedly banned alcohol, it still doesn't seem to disappear with many countries that banned it still suffering from high rates of alcoholism and drunkenness.

I think given the nature of the West and alcohol use in the West, being able to negotiate this issue will be important. In Europe, it's customary to drink just a little wine even at a young age and many business deals are sealed over a drink or to just use a tiny bit of wine for flavor in a meal. In America, it's a little different, we have had a habit of either being prone to excess or prone to complete abstention from liquor here (hey, a lot like some Muslim majority countries, amirite :respect: ) so it's different here. I think many Americans are actually quite open to mainstream Muslims' complete forbidding of alcoholic beverages. But I also think the ritual of wine drinking, especially in historically Catholic countries is a little different as Catholics, like some Muslims, forbade drunkenness more than wine itself and many such countries while having low alcoholism rates still keep up the social and/or religious rituals around wine, even if they aren't getting as drunk off of it as Americans are getting drunk off Sam Adams or Bud Light. In fact, I read a book about this subject where it was mentioned by the author that historical records show that the Persian/Iranians didn't like European wine because it was less strong and didn't get them drunk enough.

So, I think these things can and should be a little more open to real discussion if only so we can learn to respect other views or find a way to make transition to Islam including the transition to complete abstinence of wine or alcohol easier for Westerners without compromising our principles.

  • Forum Administrators
Posted
5 hours ago, Wise Muslim said:

Why is alcohol forbidden if one is able to maintain the balance and not abuse it?

Don't go all muqtada on me. I know the jurisprudence and verses from the Qu'ran.

I am looking for more philosophical or scientific reasoning?

There are A LOT of things that are halal that are far worse than alcohol....

 

1. Alcohol is banned because it is an intoxicant. This makes the Islamic position far more consistent than various modern societies where alcohol is ok, but the authorities go ape if you smoke marijuana.

2. The very act of consuming alcohol means that the 'ability to maintain balance' is impaired. And the more you consume the worse it gets.

3. As with gambling (which is often mentioned alongside alcohol), there may be some groups of people who may be able to tolerate alcohol better than others. But, in my opinion, the reason for the blanket ban is in order to protect those who can't. Because the costs imposed by the latter groups' behaviour affect people other than just themselves.

  • Veteran Member
Posted

I very much liked the wise observation you did in the last paragraph Haji, which is honestly an observation also committed to the global and not only individual effects. Indeed, very much related to many of the actual problems we see today, in which many people get into drinking without even wanting to and end up not controlling it.

  • Advanced Member
Posted

I used to be a former drinker. Alcohol is a poison for one's body, health, life, soul, it even affects your level of intelligence. It makes a soul vulnerable, makes him a subject in submitting to worldly desires and temptations. There isnt any such thing of alcohol and balance, you cant, maybe you start drinking putting limits to yourself but you Will deviate eventually. And when you are in a state of tipsiness you will forget yourself and God, therefore you forget the limitation of your religion and you will sin no matter how small it is or big it is. Plus it's an escape from one's reality. Do you want this kind of a cheap escape from your reality? When God forbids us from something it is because for the sake of us. Alcohol is a drug, and yet it is much worse than an illegal drug. Hope i helped.

  • Veteran Member
Posted
2 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

 

1. Alcohol is banned because it is an intoxicant. This makes the Islamic position far more consistent than various modern societies where alcohol is ok, but the authorities go ape if you smoke marijuana.

If I may bring a little history into this, more Muslims probably smoked more marijuana than they drank alcohol.

Hashish by some Muslims, especially more ordinary folk, was seen as the healthier and superior spiritual alternative to wine. And there are even some poems by Muslims praising Hashish and juxtaposing it with the wine used by Christians as this poem by one Syrian poet goes:

Give up wine and drink from the wine of Haydar (ie Cannabis)....
It is virginal, not deflowered by rain,

Nor has it ever been squeezed by feet or hands.
No Christian priest has ever played around with the cup containing it,

Nor have they ever given communion from its cask to any heretic's soul.
Nothing has been said expressly by (Imam) Malik to declare it unlawful,
Nor is the had penalty for its use found prescribed.

 

2 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

3. As with gambling (which is often mentioned alongside alcohol), there may be some groups of people who may be able to tolerate alcohol better than others. But, in my opinion, the reason for the blanket ban is in order to protect those who can't. Because the costs imposed by the latter groups' behaviour affect people other than just themselves.

 

1 hour ago, Bakir said:

I very much liked the wise observation you did in the last paragraph Haji, which is honestly an observation also committed to the global and not only individual effects. Indeed, very much related to many of the actual problems we see today, in which many people get into drinking without even wanting to and end up not controlling it.

Again, to bring some history into the discussion, it was usually nobles who drank wine, especially in Iran where wine had always been seen as part of aristocratic pageantry and hospitality since before Islamic times (some theories suggest wine may have even first been created in Iran). Because the nobles were so persistent in keeping their alcohol, the religious scholars and even the more abstinent kings thought it better to let them have it. But the majority of Muslims didn't drink. If anything, things like hashish, tobacco and opium became more popular among more common folks because they were easier to get and didn't have as strict religious prohibitions which the common people had enough aristocratic privilege to challenge.

Plenty of religious scholars, mystics  and aristocrats thought the ban on alcohol only applied to the common people anyway and not to those believed to be of higher breeding, enlightenment or temperament.  Though it's important to remember these people were always a minority, albeit relatively influential ones. Among some nomadic tribes there were traditions of alcohol consumption that went back generations. This may be a historical explanation for why drinking became custom among some dervish groups like the Bektashis, who always had strong ties to nomadic turkomen tribes of Anatolia and to more radical antinomian Sufis who made it their business to challenge some norms of mainstream Islamic society. Some even justified wine consumption by appeal to the Qur'an and its mentioning the wine of paradise and connecting the material wine to the "intoxicating wine of love" that figures into a lot of Sufi poetic traditions (though most Sufis understood these things metaphorically).

Another tradition which made it hard for kings to quit drinking was the tradition common among Turkish and Persian people that masculinity was somehow judged by how well you could hold your liquor. This also tied into the idea that it was drunkenness not so much the substance. The more a leader could drink without getting too inebriated, the more manly he was seen by his peers and the more it proved his superiority over the general masses who could not be expected to drink as much as himself and retain that level of self control, which is why of course it was forbidden for the masses to consume wine but not himself because they could never match his own resilience to its potential negative effects. Of course this sometimes backfired as you then had kings, governors, nobles, tax collectors, even some ulama who fell into complete inebriation or alcoholism all just to be able to maintain such customs and appearances.But even those who abstained from wine found each attempt to stop it completely to be fruitless.

 

  • Forum Administrators
Posted

Historical practices are all very interesting in terms of the excuses that people will use to justify haram activity. In that regard, we have experts here on Shiachat - the best one I've seen is that masturbation is ok if you are looking at pictures of your wife.

  • Veteran Member
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Haji 2003 said:

Historical practices are all very interesting in terms of the excuses that people will use to justify haram activity.

That wasn't why I brought that stuff up. What I was trying to make more clear is that Islam's, or Islamic societies', relationship with alcohol and other substances was always a little more complex than we give it credit for. Muslims in the past dealt with deeply ingrained cultural traditions which would not be easy to reform or completely throw away any more than many Western traditions today that Muslims are just now being forced to deal with. With the pre-Islamic traditions of alcohol, the policy was usually one of embrace where the tradition was incorporated directly into the new religious practice with maybe a few tweaks here and there or the tradition was morally objected to but legally tolerated with all sorts of guidelines like "you shouldn't drink, but if you're going to, here's what you need to do..." Most attempts to completely rid Islamic societies of alcohol ended in failure as even those who moved hard against the habit often ended up succumbing to it themselves.

I agree that Islam prohibits alcohol outright and I'm not advocating it under any religious pretense, but I also think an Islamic society could still accommodate for alcohol and moderate it better than it can prohibit it. I also think some of the marginal Muslim groups who happen to permit alcohol among their own ranks such as the Bektashi and some Ismailis and Sufis don't have to be completely ostracized just for that one thing, especially when many possess such intellect and moral uprightness that is greater than many of those who think their abstinence from alcohol is a point of pride. And there is precedence for such a policy of tolerance and accommodation in Islamic history. Considering what we encounter in the West as far as substances are concerned, we'd do well to study how Muslims dealt with the same substances in their own backyards.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23
  • Forum Administrators
Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Saintly_Jinn23 said:

I agree that Islam prohibits alcohol but I also think an Islamic society could still accommodate for alcohol and moderate it better than it can prohibit it outright. I also think some of the marginal Muslim groups who happen to permit alcohol such as the Bektashi and some Ismailis and Sufis don't have to be completely ostracized just for that, especially when many possess intellect and moral uprightness greater than many of those who think their abstinence from alcohol is a point of pride. And there is precedence for such a policy of tolerance and accommodation in Islamic history.

First guns, and now alcohol?

I believe IRI permits non-Muslims (ie Christians, etc) to possess alcohol for certain limited customs. But I don't see any other reason to "accommodate" alcohol beyond this in Islamic societies. Especially today, in a mass consumer multi-billion dollar industry, any loosening of laws or increased social acceptability will be tantamount to cultural suicide. We're not talking some small brewer in a village somewhere getting a chance to run his little shop.

Full, uncompromising prohibition is the only way, and it has mostly succeeded where it failed in America because 1) its based on a more concrete, humane, common sense, and natural divine law and 2) its become long rooted in these cultures over centuries, and must be preserved now more than ever in our globalized, consumerist world. No need to perform American libertarian style social experiments here.

Edited by magma
  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
Just now, narsis said:

Bismillah.

Salaam brother.

Some points:

1.    Jurisprudential rulings are only due to real benefits and harms; it means that what we guess as a reason for a ruling might be only one part of its real reason and its real reason be unknown. As an example I can say that a Haraam deed even if it does not have any physical affect, it will have spiritual and mental affect because it is against Allah's will.

2.    Beside we know by our reason that Allah (s) is all-Wise; it means that whatever He orders is wisely.  

3.    Regarding alcohol we know that it is categorized as Najis; so it is exactly like urine and semen; since a healthy and rational man cannot even imagine drinking urine or semen, he must have the same attitude for alcohol.

With Duas.

Narsis.

I must say I liked the comparison, the third one. Never thought of it this way.

Edited by random username
Posted

 

1 hour ago, narsis said:

Bismillah.

Salaam brother.

3.    Regarding alcohol we know that it is categorized as Najis; so it is exactly like urine and semen; since a healthy and rational man cannot even imagine drinking urine or semen, he must have the same attitude for alcohol.

With Duas.

Narsis.

what is the reason those are  najis ?

  • Moderators
Posted
16 hours ago, Wise Muslim said:

Why is alcohol forbidden if one is able to maintain the balance and not abuse it?

Even in small quantities it kills brain cells and causes liver damage. Medicinal uses are permitted, where the damage is considered by a doctor and it is determined to be the required treatment in spite of that.

 

But there doesn't have to be a known reason. You could also ask why we aren't permitted to eat small quantities of pork if we won't become ill from it.

Posted
19 minutes ago, notme said:

Even in small quantities it kills brain cells and causes liver damage. Medicinal uses are permitted, where the damage is considered by a doctor and it is determined to be the required treatment in spite of that.

 

But there doesn't have to be a known reason. You could also ask why we aren't permitted to eat small quantities of pork if we won't become ill from it.

Its because of the spiritual effect of haram vs the physical effect. Even small amounts of haram affect our spirits negatively, to the extent that even food bought with haram money affects us & our behaviour & our society

  • Moderators
Posted

Bismih Ta'ala
Assalamu Alaykum

A Hadith that @Al-Hassan brought to my attention that I believe summarizes why alcohol is such a terrible substance, and its consumption is such a terrible vice.

(12289 1) علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن إسماعيل بن بشار، عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام قال: سأله رجل فقال له: أصلحك الله شرب الخمر شر أم ترك الصلاة؟ فقال: شرب الخمر (ثم) قال: أو تدري لم ذاك؟ قال: لا، قال: لانه يصير في حال لا يعرف معها ربه.
 

@Al-Hassan's translation: A man asked Imam al-Sadiq ع: "May Allah س grant you prosperity, which is more evil; the drinking of alcohol or the abandoning of the obligatory prayer (salat)?" The Imam  ع responded: "The drinking of alcohol". Then the Imam ع asked him: "Do you know the reason for that?" The man said: "No". The Imam ع responded: "Because the drunkard will enter a state where he will no longer know his Lord". [al-Kafi]

At the end of the day, a Hukm is a Hukm. If Allah and the Ma'sumeen forbid it then it is enough for us to abstain from doing it.

wa assalam

  • Veteran Member
Posted

There is no basal limit for inebriation nor is there any formula to calculate how many drinks it takes to get drunk. Because it varies from person to person, the policy is set to zero-tolerance. And I believe it is applicable to all intoxicants.

On a side not, I have never consumed alcohol but had to have a liver biopsy for fatty liver (disease of the liver common among alcoholics). Below is my pre-op conversation at registration:

Me: Requirements for the morning?
Her: No food, no drink from 10p the previous night. However, you can take any pills needed for AA control.
Me: Ma'am, I dont drink alcohol. I am not an alcoholic.
Pause for 5-8 secs
Her: okay sir (not very confident)
Background noise: back to Step 1 for him. 

  • Veteran Member
Posted
7 hours ago, magma said:

Full, uncompromising prohibition is the only way, and it has mostly succeeded where it failed in America because 1) its based on a more concrete, humane, common sense, and natural divine law and 2) its become long rooted in these cultures over centuries, and must be preserved now more than ever in our globalized, consumerist world. No need to perform American libertarian style social experiments here.

Except it hasn't succeeded in a great capacity anywhere, not even in the Islamic world. Prohibition in Islamic countries has not led to significant decreases in the amount of people actually drinking there, because even in these countries there was always a significant, albeit a small section, of the population who drank and even today in some countries there may even be more drinkers than before since alcohol is no longer as expensive of a luxury which only nobles can afford and entices people through its illegality (it certainly is easy to get a drink in Iran). And every time a Muslim ruler tried to ban alcohol in the past, they repealed it almost as soon as they implemented it because no matter how many purges of alcohol they tried, it never went away. The reason alcohol declined in Muslim areas that had cultures of alcohol had more to do with people, particularly the common people in this case, choosing not to drink and the governments' laws at best curtailing the production and distribution without necessarily banning it for those who wanted to drink and were probably going to continue drinking even if it was banned. Enforcement is often a costly affair that doesn't always produce satisfactory results that justify the costs. That's just reality.

Many Americans remember or are reminded of the horrible failure of Prohibition, a movement largely headed by religious housewives who were tired of their overworked and underpaid husbands spending so much time drinking and smoking.

Many Americans are unlikely to accept a religion whose followers are demanding sweeping policies that failed miserably in the American past and whose moral zeal appears to overcome their reason. Likewise, when Muslims champion the morality of their cultures, only for Americans to see that under the surface, things are far from rosy, it makes one cynical. In this case, non-Muslims are led to believe the Muslims ranting against alcohol are supposed to be more moral in general and yet as far as alcohol is concerned, one can find plenty of drinkers in Muslim countries, sometimes indulging in their habit in full view of authorities who are supposed to enforce laws but don't always do so because they have bigger fish to fry. If we look at something like tobacco, although I believe alcohol is haram but not tobacco, we have managed to greatly marginalize and reduce the habit in America without a violent shut-down of tobacco companies. Through many public programs designed to spread awareness of the dangers of tobacco, private businesses forbidding smoking on their own properties, high taxes on cigarettes and swaying public opinion, smoking has been reduced significantly and more marginalized in the social sphere than it used to be.

If instead of widespread prohibition through law enforcement which is unlikely to yield the results we want and may even just result in authorities looking the other way when people drink cause they have something more serious to deal with, in a culture like America, if Muslims were willing to adopt a policy against alcohol that put a gradual weaning of the society off the substance through more soft measures that don't radically attack certain embedded cultural norms, you'd probably see a lot more people who drink being attracted to Islam and being convinced to either quit completely or at least lower the amount they consume, eventually quitting, if they can, at their own pace. I'm not saying let the alcohol companies have free reign, I'm saying do what you did to big tobacco: tax them more, charge them more for ad space on television, wage a public ad campaign against drinking (not just driving drunk) exhaust every non-violent measure you can to reduce alcohol in the society and you may find that aggressive law enforcement is totally unnecessary. Something unique you can do for alcohol is impose higher penalties for criminal actions committed under the influence (which we are already kind of doing here). I don't think this would go against Islamic law at all and it's pretty close to the policies many Muslim rulers in the past adopted to try to lower alcohol consumption in their realms or at least marginalize it without getting stubborn drinkers too angry.

Also, in these times, it's important for us to work with those who like us are marginalized from mainstream Islam like ourselves so that we can defend ourselves politically and economically against our opponents. If some of these groups consider themselves Muslims or Shi'a and permit alcohol but forbid drunkenness, whether we agree or not, I believe we can work with them easily since ultimately we desire the same thing, and such a policy as above would be perfectly acceptable to these groups as well as ourselves and they would respond positively to our lack of forceful measures against their own more moderated alcohol consumption, which for the most part does not result in a culture of excess.

Posted
33 minutes ago, narsis said:

 

Verdicts of scholars and Ahaadith (wasaa;il al-Shi'a vol.25, p.378).

I cannot find the Hadith, can you help me. I check online but could not find hadith why is it najis.

because if before alcohol was halal then became haram so before it was not najis? 

Posted
2 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

Bismih Ta'ala
Assalamu Alaykum

A Hadith that @Al-Hassan brought to my attention that I believe summarizes why alcohol is such a terrible substance, and its consumption is such a terrible vice.

(12289 1) علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن إسماعيل بن بشار، عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام قال: سأله رجل فقال له: أصلحك الله شرب الخمر شر أم ترك الصلاة؟ فقال: شرب الخمر (ثم) قال: أو تدري لم ذاك؟ قال: لا، قال: لانه يصير في حال لا يعرف معها ربه.
 

@Al-Hassan's translation: A man asked Imam al-Sadiq ع: "May Allah س grant you prosperity, which is more evil; the drinking of alcohol or the abandoning of the obligatory prayer (salat)?" The Imam  ع responded: "The drinking of alcohol". Then the Imam ع asked him: "Do you know the reason for that?" The man said: "No". The Imam ع responded: "Because the drunkard will enter a state where he will no longer know his Lord". [al-Kafi]

At the end of the day, a Hukm is a Hukm. If Allah and the Ma'sumeen forbid it then it is enough for us to abstain from doing it.

wa assalam

Waalykum asalam ,

Is  hadith true ? Because if you don't pray U become kafir. But if you drink and pray u r not kafir .how is this ? Can u explain me pls.

  • Advanced Member
Posted
3 minutes ago, certainclarity said:

Waalykum asalam ,

Is  hadith true ? Because if you don't pray U become kafir. But if you drink and pray u r not kafir .how is this ? Can u explain me pls.

The Hadith says that drinking Sharaab is worst than abandoning Salaat; both are condemned and bad but one is worst than others maybe because drinking Sharaab has social negative affects in addition to its personal affects.

Posted

Bismillah

The Najasah (impurity) of Alcohol is disputed. Everything najis is haram to eat, however, not everything that is haram to eat is najis. 

The last observation by certainclarity is also an excellent one to argue one side (being permissible then made haram). Although it could be argued by Usuli scholars that it was always haram, but the ruling was revealed gradually (hence the punishment only comes into affect after the ruling is passed - but the effects exist before the ruling is announced). 

Philosophy doesn't deal with Alcohol use :P

Shia scholars have different explanations on why blanket statements are made, and in particular offer some of the wisdoms that may possibly be behind the banning of alcohol use (one alluded to partially by Hajji). It's a discussion of preventing the preliminaries to sin, or protecting greater goods. 

There are a lot of things that could be discussed here, and i do feel some of them are very interesting, so hope there is more beneficial input to the thread. 

  • Advanced Member
Posted
16 minutes ago, certainclarity said:

I cannot find the Hadith, can you help me. I check online but could not find hadith why is it najis.

because if before alcohol was halal then became haram so before it was not najis? 

مُصَدِّقٍ عَنْ عَمَّارٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع فِي الْإِنَاءِ يُشْرَبُ فِيهِ النَّبِيذُ- فَقَالَ تَغْسِلُهُ سَبْعَ مَرَّاتٍ وَ كَذَلِكَ الْكَلْبُ- إِلَى أَنْ قَالَ وَ لَا تُصَلِّ فِي بَيْتٍ فِيهِ خَمْرٌ وَ لَا مُسْكِرٌ- لِأَنَّ الْمَلَائِكَةَ لَا تَدْخُلُهُ- وَ لَا تُصَلِّ فِي ثَوْبٍ أَصَابَهُ خَمْرٌ أَوْ مُسْكِرٌ حَتَّى يُغْسَلَ الْحَدِيثَ.

  • Advanced Member
Posted
1 minute ago, certainclarity said:

Waalykum asalam ,

Is  hadith true ? Because if you don't pray U become kafir. But if you drink and pray u r not kafir .how is this ? Can u explain me pls.

You do not become a Kafir if you don't pray. You become a Kafir, according to the jurists, if you deny something essentially known and instrinsic to the Dīn. For example, you say/believe that Prayer is not required, or you say alcoholic consumption is allowed. 

Intoxicating substances harm the soundness of ones mind, and clearly prevents one from knowing his Lord - as per the excellent Hadith posted earlier. It is not appropriate that person x can indulge in practice y because he is able to 'control' himself better than anyone else. It's harmful to society's well-being so no one is permitted it. It's a poison to ones soul and a physical poison to our body that impairs our mind. Alhamdulilah for its prohibition. Imagine how many more people we'd have alive today if this poison was prohibited. Reading the number of deaths from alchohol induced violence and car crashes is saddening. 

Posted
5 hours ago, narsis said:

مُصَدِّقٍ عَنْ عَمَّارٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع فِي الْإِنَاءِ يُشْرَبُ فِيهِ النَّبِيذُ- فَقَالَ تَغْسِلُهُ سَبْعَ مَرَّاتٍ وَ كَذَلِكَ الْكَلْبُ- إِلَى أَنْ قَالَ وَ لَا تُصَلِّ فِي بَيْتٍ فِيهِ خَمْرٌ وَ لَا مُسْكِرٌ- لِأَنَّ الْمَلَائِكَةَ لَا تَدْخُلُهُ- وَ لَا تُصَلِّ فِي ثَوْبٍ أَصَابَهُ خَمْرٌ أَوْ مُسْكِرٌ حَتَّى يُغْسَلَ الْحَدِيثَ.

Can u translate please.

Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Ali Musaaa :) said:

You do not become a Kafir if you don't pray. You become a Kafir, according to the jurists, if you deny something essentially known and instrinsic to the Dīn. For example, you say/believe that Prayer is not required, or you say alcoholic consumption is allowed. 

Intoxicating substances harm the soundness of ones mind, and clearly prevents one from knowing his Lord - as per the excellent Hadith posted earlier. It is not appropriate that person x can indulge in practice y because he is able to 'control' himself better than anyone else. It's harmful to society's well-being so no one is permitted it. It's a poison to ones soul and a physical poison to our body that impairs our mind. Alhamdulilah for its prohibition. Imagine how many more people we'd have alive today if this poison was prohibited. Reading the number of deaths from alchohol induced violence and car crashes is saddening. 

I know hadith , you become kafir when u not pray. you do kufr and become kafir to emaan but still Moslem:

 بين الايمان و الكفر ترك الصلاة ؛

Prophet Muhammed ( SA) ; distance between Eman and Kufr is to leave Salah ~ mizan Al Hikmah 

But I hear that even if you drink you should pray, but prayer not accepted. But must pray. Just prayer not excepted for 40 days.

Edited by certainclarity
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Al-Englisi said:

Bismillah

The Najasah (impurity) of Alcohol is disputed. Everything najis is haram to eat, however, not everything that is haram to eat is najis. 

There are a lot of things that could be discussed here, and i do feel some of them are very interesting, so hope there is more beneficial input to the thread. 

I just want to know alcohol was always najis ? Because if always najis why it allowed to drink and pray before. Then Rasool Allah , when too many people drink and say prayers and no focus. He said not to drink and haram for ever.

so must be before it was not najis , then after Rasool Allah said alcohol is haram , it became najis ? 

I want to know Also ,how and why dog , pig , semen ,blood , urine etc became najis . Why did God make them najis and others not najis?

Edited by certainclarity
Posted
4 hours ago, certainclarity said:

I just want to know alcohol was always najis ? Because if always najis why it allowed to drink and pray before. Then Rasool Allah , when too many people drink and say prayers and no focus. He said not to drink and haram for ever.

so must be before it was not najis , then after Rasool Allah said alcohol is haram , it became najis ? 

I want to know Also ,how and why dog , pig , semen ,blood , urine etc became najis . Why did God make them najis and others not najis?

Ayn nijasa like alcohol were always prohibited bro, from the time of Hazrat Adam, but because society at the Prophets pbuh time was so addicted to alcohol it was phased out carefully instead of instant ban. The oft quoted "do not approach prayers while intoxicated" is referring to a specific event, and not proof that alcohol was permitted at one point.

This is similar to idols on the kaaba - shirk is always haram yet the prophet pbuh did not remove them from the kaaba until the situation was right. This doesnt mean shirk was once accepted

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