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Jafar moh

Urgent help, need clarification on Mutah

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I am in a little bit of Conflict.

There is a christian girl who comes from a strict background ( her father being a pastor) and said that she must wait until graduation from university to marry. I do not want to commit any more haraam with this woman( haraam has been done before, please respond to this first if it can be a problem or if i have to wait an iddah) , and we are both 18 years old, where in Canada 18 is considered that you are your own gaurdian. In an old lecture from Sayed Ammar Nakshawani's  mutah lecture, he used the word gaurdian specifically to identify who she may get permission from. My question is:

 

Can I perform Mutah with this woman, who is independant of her parents but chooses to live there, has respect to my beliefs and morals even if we have commited sin before( she also feels guilty of doing it after i opened up to her about my faith) , who has a christian father that does not neccessarily follow the rules of Mutah which may make his opinion void? To clarify my marja is sayed ali sistani. 

 

Please respond whenever you can, I am in a tight position and abstaining from sexual acts and thoughts has proven to be extremely tough especially during this new day and age where woman wear very revealing clothing.

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Bismillah.

Salaam.

Ayatollah Sistani says:

In marrying a virgin woman, whether Muslim or from Ahlul Kitab, it is necessary to get the consent of her father or paternal grandfather, if she is not independent. However, it is precautionarily obligatory to seek their consent [i.e., of the father or the paternal grandfather], even if she is independent. Consent of the woman’s brother, mother, sister or other relations is not required.

http://www.sistani.org/english/book/46/2062/

With Duas.

Narsis.

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Thank you narsis.

I have another question: I believe that there are certain marja's who have a different viewing on the issue of asking for permission in certain situations which I believe may be valid for my situation, for example:

Grand Ayatollah Sayed M.S.Alhakeem says:

Question:

Temporary Marriage If I want to do Mutah with a Christian girl who, in her religion, does not need the permission of the father to get married, can we thus form a Mutah contract and be allowed to consummate the marriage without his permission?

Answer:

If the consent of the guardian is not required based on his religion, it is permissible to marry his virgin daughter without his permission. The permission is also not required if the father mandates his daughter to deal with the matter of her marriage.

http://english.alhakeem.com on issue of Mutah 

If in this case it is permissible, do I have the jurisdiction to switch my marja state with the reason being I do not want to dwell into haraam and this can be my only choice?  Salam 

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37 minutes ago, Jafar moh said:

Thank you narsis.

I have another question: I believe that there are certain marja's who have a different viewing on the issue of asking for permission in certain situations which I believe may be valid for my situation, for example:

Grand Ayatollah Sayed M.S.Alhakeem says:

Question:

Temporary Marriage If I want to do Mutah with a Christian girl who, in her religion, does not need the permission of the father to get married, can we thus form a Mutah contract and be allowed to consummate the marriage without his permission?

Answer:

If the consent of the guardian is not required based on his religion, it is permissible to marry his virgin daughter without his permission. The permission is also not required if the father mandates his daughter to deal with the matter of her marriage.

http://english.alhakeem.com on issue of Mutah 

If in this case it is permissible, do I have the jurisdiction to switch my marja state with the reason being I do not want to dwell into haraam and this can be my only choice?  Salam 

Yes I believe so. Since the ruling for seeking the father's permission is based on Ihtiyat (precaution), you can refer to a marja' with a more absolute ruling, i.e. Sayed al Hakeem, Sayed Sadiq Rohani

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Brother,

In my opinion, I dont believe it is okay to change marja-e-taqleed everytime you find a ruling against your wishes.

On any particular ruling, if a marja says it is okay to consult others, you may do so otherwise you have to stick to them. 

Now you can change marja if you feel there is a more learned marja overall but not on a ruling by ruling basis. 

 

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Hi Jafar moh,

 

You may be in the same situation that many 18 year olds are. --- You feel you are mature enough to make major decisions that could split a Christian family, because of disrespect for the girl's parents, --- would that not bother you?

The girl has to finish university first. --- Yes, and her reason for finishing university is in preparation for a future job. --- You might lure her away from following her basic desire for an education by taking her away prematurely from her stable life of family and friends. --- If you take a girl out of her family circle you may hope to build a life with just you and her. --- When you have children they might not be able to see their grandparents and you might have a lonely wife who had wished she would have waited a few years to make a more mature decision.

--- As a Christian I know the importance of family life where there is harmony. --- We have lots of family gatherings, birthdays, anniversaries, and the joy is getting all of the family together. --- If there is one or two that are divided from the family it is noticed. --- If you were a Christian and wanted to marry at 18 just because you have trouble with self control, I would say the same thing. --- And then I would say, have you prayed about it and asked God if He can bless your marriage?

Sorry, I am placing a damper on your hopes, but in your writing you are asking others to approve what you would like to do, --- you like the idea that 18 is a mature age to make adult and life decisions, --- but i8 is not yet out of the 'teens' which is still in the adolescent years. --- Also, if you go ahead with a marriage without the full consent of the girl's family, where is the proof of your love for her which would make you willing to wait until there is approval, and a good relationship?  

As in all things we should ask God for guidance, should we not?

However, this can be just my opinion, --- but decisions should be made not from pressure, but with 'peace of mind.'

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Very fair points, I will clarify some things however:

1. I did say she was independant but I did not say that she is living alone or plans to be. It is true that 18 might be too ripe of an age to make a decision such as marrying this women but I am not taking her away from her household. Her father might have said that she should wait until graduation to make a deicison such as marriage( not temporary) but he did however give her freedom for whomever she wants to marry.

2. as you can see, we are on the same boats and we both vowed to keep our academic life before anything.

3. I have been waiting for months now, and since the age of 12 I have stuck with a marja and only 1 marja( honourable sayed ali sistani) but I feel like this is a sufficient reason to switch. I will research and study Sayed hakeem or Sayed rouhani to the full extent if need be.

4. self control is a proven difficulty , difficulty ranging differently from place to place and I understand where you come from placid but you should understand that not everyone may have the same will power and iman. I'm hoping through this experience I will gain a better iman in the future and this can be my only salvation.

5. Regarding narsis's recent post, is there a way I could obtain permission ? Would I need to speak to a wakil?

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Sorry, young fellow, but seems to me this is all about sex.

What are your long-term  intentions regarding this woman?

how is she in any way actually " independent?"

What if she gets pregnant?

Sorry again...but I'm a mother. My husband is a father.

we are Christians.

We have a beloved daughter.

she is being courted by a Shia right now and things are totally different.

If he came at my husband with the proposal of " Well, here's the deal....I want you to continue feeding, clothing, and sheltering your daughter whilst I have sex with her because I just can't control myself" I don't want to even think about what would happen.

nope..he got a job as well as going to school and is working to pay for an apartment for them to move into after marriage while they continue their studies and he takes responsibility like a proper husband. Like my husband did and his dad did. And this is even before he has gotten any permission. He is trying to impress my husband with his ability as a grown adult ( 19) to be able to handle a marriage relationship.

What scholar would be okay  with having the " fun" in marriage with none of the responsibilities? 

You are not in the " same boat"... Her boat doesn't allow temporary marriages. She will still be sinning if you don't have a legal marriage with her according to her church. 

Why not find a Muslim  woman and pitch this idea to  her Dad ?

would your Dad agree to something like this for your sister if you have one?

If it's so great, he should be as delighted as the Christian dad is "supposed "to be...or can a guy  ignore a Muslim dad's wishes for his daughter as well  if he doesn't buy this?  Is it just Christian or Jewish fathers ( neither  religion believes in mutah) that get disrespected when it's convenient? Nice to know at least some Shia scholars, probably fathers themselves, don't want this to happen and want permission sought...probably because they know Christian and Jewish dads are not likely to sign off on this sort of thing and thus the daughter will be protected from committing sin in her faith and perhaps her own poor judgment, same as a Muslim woman would be.

If you two want to be married,  why not take her to the Registrar's office and do it right as well as fix it with your respective religions. To quote one of my Muslim female friends: "A woman is more than  just something you stick yourself into."

otherwise, believe it or not, there are plenty of Jewish and Christian men that control themselves in spite of skimpy clothes,etc. ...perhaps you can ask them how they do it?

My two shells.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Why not find a Muslim  woman and pitch this idea to  her Dad ?

^ LCM rocks...

It is not everyday people call a spade a spade about contracting mutah with non-Muslim women.

This has been brought up before. How can you "convince" someone into having a mutah with you when she doesn't believe in it to begin with, when there is no provision of this sort in her sect or religion for her that allows it? It's basically telling her of your own problems with regards to sexual relationships and asking her to sympathise with you. Of course, there are plenty of non-observant Christian/Jewish girls who agree to mutah, because they don't mind having physical relations with a guy they fancy - with or without mutah. So, sometimes those girls agree to mutah laughing at the whole thing, for short time fun. The rule about father's permission is dismissed with a "oh, he wouldn't care." Seen it firsthand.

Anyway, if you want mutah, seek Shia women who believe in it and are willing to become your partners.

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57 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Sorry, young fellow, but seems to me this is all about sex.

What are your long-term  intentions regarding this woman?

how is she in any way actually " independent?"

What if she gets pregnant?

Sorry again...but I'm a mother. My husband is a father.

we are Christians.

We have a beloved daughter.

she is being courted by a Shia right now and things are totally different.

If he came at my husband with the proposal of " Well, here's the deal....I want you to continue feeding, clothing, and sheltering your daughter whilst I have sex with her because I just can't control myself" I don't want to even think about what would happen.

nope..he got a job as well as going to school and is working to pay for an apartment for them to move into after marriage while they continue their studies and he takes responsibility like a proper husband. Like my husband did and his dad did. And this is even before he has gotten any permission. He is trying to impress my husband with his ability as a grown adult ( 19) to be able to handle a marriage relationship.

What scholar would be okay  with having the " fun" in marriage with none of the responsibilities? 

You are not in the " same boat"... Her boat doesn't allow temporary marriages. She will still be sinning if you don't have a legal marriage with her according to her church. 

Why not find a Muslim  woman and pitch this idea to  her Dad ?

would your Dad agree to something like this for your sister if you have one?

If it's so great, he should be as delighted as the Christian dad is "supposed "to be...or can a guy  ignore a Muslim dad's wishes for his daughter as well  if he doesn't buy this?  Is it just Christian or Jewish fathers ( neither  religion believes in mutah) that get disrespected when it's convenient? Nice to know at least some Shia scholars, probably fathers themselves, don't want this to happen and want permission sought...probably because they know Christian and Jewish dads are not likely to sign off on this sort of thing and thus the daughter will be protected from committing sin in her faith and perhaps her own poor judgment, same as a Muslim woman would be.

If you two want to be married,  why not take her to the Registrar's office and do it right as well as fix it with your respective religions. To quote one of my Muslim female friends: "A woman is more than  just something you stick yourself into."

otherwise, believe it or not, there are plenty of Jewish and Christian men that control themselves in spite of skimpy clothes,etc. ...perhaps you can ask them how they do it?

My two shells.

 

 

hello ,

very insightful point, thank you. I could be thinking too rashly.. and you are right, my intention at the moment for mutah is for lust and self desire but I thought of it as also doing a deed on her part. Christianity may not hold mutah as a belief but she understands it's concept and would rather have me do Mutah with her then without, for my sake.I just assumed a temporary marriage might be a solution to my misdeeds, and I didn't realize the effect it would have on her own beliefs.  to answer your question:

1. I can't be too sure that I will marry this woman in the future. If I have a doubt , does that void mutah in all? Does it have to be permanent in the future?

2. She considers herself independent, however I do not believe she has the capacity to live on her own without help from her parents.

3. As for her being pregnant,It would definetely become a marriage and I will be able to provide for the child.

Although sayed alhakeem explicitly says mutah is permissible without the permission of a father in the case that they Don't follow the belief of Mutah

 Q [42]  If I want to do Mutah with a Christian girl who, in her religion, does not need the permission of the father to get married, can we thus form a Mutah contract and be allowed to consummate the marriage without his permission?

Answer:

If the consent of the guardian is not required based on his religion, it is permissible to marry his virgin daughter without his permission. The permission is also not required if the father mandates his daughter to deal with the matter of her marriage

__________________________________

Which is the knowledge I had that made me begin this post, but your points are nonetheless valid. So I kept reading on and I found this nonrelevant post :

 Q [29]  If a man who is married to a Muslim wife, but contracts temporary marriage with a non-Muslim from the people of the book without the knowledge or permission of his Muslim wife, will he have committed a sin?

Answer:

The marriage is correct and he has not committed a sin.

__________________________________

this is something I don't understand how is permissible, so according to this knowledge and my recent doubts, I think it's safe to assume mutah might not be valid in my case.

So basically I must cut all relations with a girl I have feelings for, will she not feel hurt ? I assumed the safest thing for her feelings and my belief was mutah but that does not mean I am allowed to throw away her beliefs, which you explained to me.

And if you know these Jewish and Christian men who are able to abstain from desire, could you find me a way to contact them? I have yet to know a person who can accomplish such a feat.

Could you then give me advice on what I should do in this situation if mutah with this women is not something I can do?

I'd like to thank you again, I am not thinking rationally and I will work on this.

Edited by Jafar moh

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16 minutes ago, Marbles said:

^ LCM rocks...

It is not everyday people call a spade a spade about contracting mutah with non-Muslim women.

This has been brought up before. How can you "convince" someone into having a mutah with you when she doesn't believe in it to begin with, when there is no provision of this sort in her sect or religion for her that allows it? It's basically telling her of your own problems with regards to sexual relationships and asking her to sympathise with you. Of course, there are plenty of non-observant Christian/Jewish girls who agree to mutah, because they don't mind having physical relations with a guy they fancy - with or without mutah. So, sometimes those girls agree to mutah laughing at the whole thing, for short time fun. The rule about father's permission is dismissed with a "oh, he wouldn't care." Seen it firsthand.

Anyway, if you want mutah, seek Shia women who believe in it and are willing to become your partners.

I like your answer, well written and makes sense to me. Unfortunately, in my case,  Shia are few and far between where I live, tiny minority but I am sure that the OP will have a better chance of finding a Shia woman who would be willing.

 

@Jafar moh- Besides, no pastor would ever allow this to happen his daughter, so sorry to rain on the parade but I think this wouldn't fly with most conservative Christians: I think you should take LeftCoastMom and Marbles' advice and try to find a Shia girl who understands mutah and is willing to do with it with you. 

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sayed alhakeems views on marja may explain a situation that could be considered , in Islamic jurisdiction, permissible, but that does not mean it should morally be allowed. Besides, sayed sistani has a strict view on mutah which considers beliefs of the people of ahlul-kitab, which is why i thought switching marjas would be sufficient, but that does not seem to be an option any longer.I think my best chance is to try harder to keep myself from falling into sin. 

However, is there no other solution for me to fix this problem? 

 I don't think me finding a Shia girl would be any much different, perhaps maybe more difficult in most cases. I just wanted something that could be quiet for the both of us but at the same time permissable in Islamic views and I thought I'd read more about mutah.

Edited by Jafar moh

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2 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I like your answer, well written and makes sense to me. Unfortunately, in my case,  Shia are few and far between where I live, tiny minority but I am sure that the OP will have a better chance of finding a Shia woman who would be willing.

Just to make clear that I am pointing out some problems with contracting mutah with Kitabi women; I don't dismiss it for those who'd need it or have no other viable option. So it should be okay if the girl is on board,  knows the guy's intentions, understands all rules & regulations, guardian's permission rule has been figured out (not just bypassed), esp if the muta is conducted with a view to convert it into a proper, legal, permanent marriage. So if things don't work out very well, it's easy for both the parties to separate and move on. I have been in a similar situation myself wherein I might have gone ahead with a mutah like this but suffice it to say it did not come to that point.

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3 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

I'm actually impressed with some of your Marjas. I suspect they know quite a bit about Christianity and they have just closed some loopholes to possible abuse and oppression that you could drive a freight train through.

See, I told you, the maraji are some of the smartest people that I know of.  :)

 

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16 hours ago, Jafar moh said:

hello ,

very insightful point, thank you. I could be thinking too rashly.. and you are right, my intention at the moment for mutah is for lust and self desire but I thought of it as also doing a deed on her part. Christianity may not hold mutah as a belief but she understands it's concept and would rather have me do Mutah with her then without, for my sake.I just assumed a temporary marriage might be a solution to my misdeeds, and I didn't realize the effect it would have on her own beliefs.  to answer your question:

1. I can't be too sure that I will marry this woman in the future. If I have a doubt , does that void mutah in all? Does it have to be permanent in the future?

2. She considers herself independent, however I do not believe she has the capacity to live on her own without help from her parents.

3. As for her being pregnant,It would definetely become a marriage and I will be able to provide for the child.

Although sayed alhakeem explicitly says mutah is permissible without the permission of a father in the case that they Don't follow the belief of Mutah

 Q [42]  If I want to do Mutah with a Christian girl who, in her religion, does not need the permission of the father to get married, can we thus form a Mutah contract and be allowed to consummate the marriage without his permission?

Answer:

If the consent of the guardian is not required based on his religion, it is permissible to marry his virgin daughter without his permission. The permission is also not required if the father mandates his daughter to deal with the matter of her marriage

__________________________________

Which is the knowledge I had that made me begin this post, but your points are nonetheless valid. So I kept reading on and I found this nonrelevant post :

 Q [29]  If a man who is married to a Muslim wife, but contracts temporary marriage with a non-Muslim from the people of the book without the knowledge or permission of his Muslim wife, will he have committed a sin?

Answer:

The marriage is correct and he has not committed a sin.

__________________________________

this is something I don't understand how is permissible, so according to this knowledge and my recent doubts, I think it's safe to assume mutah might not be valid in my case.

So basically I must cut all relations with a girl I have feelings for, will she not feel hurt ? I assumed the safest thing for her feelings and my belief was mutah but that does not mean I am allowed to throw away her beliefs, which you explained to me.

And if you know these Jewish and Christian men who are able to abstain from desire, could you find me a way to contact them? I have yet to know a person who can accomplish such a feat.

Could you then give me advice on what I should do in this situation if mutah with this women is not something I can do?

I'd like to thank you again, I am not thinking rationally and I will work on this.

Well, since you seem to care for her feelings and she for yours and you are willing to take responsibility for any child born of the union...congratulations...you are already better than a lot of guys out there. Honor to your parents for bringing you up correctly or to yourself if you got to this place on your own.

There seems to be a difference of opinion among your scholars regarding doing this tradition of yours with outsiders.  At any rate, I doubt YOU would be sinning according to your own faith in most scenarios. She ALWAYS  would be according to her faith. Marriage is always ideally permanent to Christians. Not sure how the daughter of a pastor ever got to such a pass.

the equivalent would be  if one of my sons, a Catholic,  gets the daughter of the  leader of the local mosque, without consulting her father,  to go to one of our churches and get married to him. Her dad's opinion of the situation is  supposedly invalid because he's not a Christian and doesn't understand the nature of  Christian marriage.  Supposedly she does, even though she's not a convert. Now, according to my son, he's regally and legally wed. Is she... according to her  own traditions? I doubt any ruling from a bishop on the validity of the marriage would make much difference to her folks.

It's to your credit that you are taking her and her family's feelings into consideration. The fact that you seem to be concerned not to have her sin according to her own traditions since, according to some folks in here, that's what she's going to be judged upon, is commendable. Prospective spouses should take each other's spiritual well-being into consideration. 

Lol! Kind of meant the " Christian and Jewish guys"' thing not too seriously for you, even though I'm sure they have info on the InterNet. In reality, I think you should talk to your own spiritual leaders about how you can deal with  your natural and normal sexual feelings. Cold showers , ( and a colder ocean) , exercise ,and staying active with healthful things help ...according to my sons. Some gentlemen here could give you some good advice, too.

 

Not sure you'd have to break off ties with her unless you feel you two just can't stop your physical relationship. Maybe give it a little time ( maybe you two can talk it out and can set a time limit on how long you want to spend?)  and see if things develop into something that might be permanent? Perhaps then her Dad will relent and let you two get married legally and finish school together if you want. If you feel you can support a child, you two should be able to support yourselves even if your parents don't help.  ( My oldest son's best academic years were graduate school because he was married and not distracted by the single life, parties,etc.) But you know what situation works best for you and what you are ready for. 

 

You seem to be honoring her Dad's request that she finish school before marriage, so I think you might want to consider that the spiritual leader of a Church would not want his daughter to enter into an illicit relationship and honor that, too.

 

hope this helps.

 

 

 

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Salam fellows,,i need urgent help upon mutta,,My question is that ,,,,if a married muslim man lives away from his muslim wife...like he is working abroad living in UAE and his family is in pakistan,,,,,1)is it possible to do mutta without the permission of his muslim wifr,,,2) If the Ans is YEs then,is mutta can be done with a nusrani or juish girlwith out the permission of his muslim wife or mutta can e done by only another Muslim girl.Remember without permisoin of his 1st Muslim Wife.

Another question is...that is----- if requried ---in married status only a man can do Mutta ? and what should be the role of a married wife livving away from her husband...what is the blessings of ISlam for that Women.

Edited by Ali Alvy
more questions

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