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Sol 7

Death for Homosexuality?

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Salaam Alaikum Brothers and Sisters.

Okay. Right. Homosexuality. 

I recently read a Hadith that say Homosexuals should be killed. 

The Prophet (saws) said: (1) "Kill the one who sodomizes and the one who lets if be done to him." (Sahih Bukhari and Muslim ruled by Tirmidhi, a sahih (authentic) hadith)

Alright, I'm not one to blindly follow Hadith if I think theres a difference of opinion among my pirs, or a contradiction to either the Qur'an or the Sunna. Viewing Homosexuality as a sin is one thing, but believing they should be killed? That seems quite wrong to me. 

Look, I get that Shi'a don't follow the "Sahih" Hadith. 

But Ayatollah Ali al Sistani, one of the most followed, if not the most followed (Besides Khamenei) actually called for Gays to be killed. http://pointdebasculecanada.ca/wave-of-attacks-against-homosexuals-in-iraq-after-ayatollah-al-sistani-issued-fatwa-calling-for-the-execution-of-gays-in-the-worst-most-severe-way/ 

He later withdrew that fatwa. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Iran kills Gays as well. A Penalty supported in full by Ayatollah Khamenei.

Even if you don't follow the same Hadith, you still practice the same thing. 

I understand viewing Homosexuality as a sin. But do you guys here really support Homosexuals being killed? 

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19 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

How were Lut's-as people made an example?

Well, they were destroyed right? But that was God's doing. Not the doing of people. Plus, they were a whole city, and they were doing....a few other things...besides Homosexuality. 

You aren't actually saying that Homosexuals should be killed are you? 

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1 minute ago, Vestige said:

Salam,

I think there's a difference between being a homosexual and engaging in homosexual acts. I think you're only to be killed in the latter case.

Gee. I somehow get the feeling that that's really not much better.

Anyone have opinions on the matter that are considerably less Daesh-y?

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5 minutes ago, Sol 7 said:

Well, they were destroyed right? But that was God's doing. Not the doing of people. Plus, they were a whole city, and they were doing....a few other things...besides Homosexuality. 

You aren't actually saying that Homosexuals should be killed are you? 

v:44-45

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Interesting points. I would like to address three points here.

As for the punishment, traditional sharia interpretations require the hard to meet requirements. And they are to be made upon those who practice sodomy in public. Falling into the sin while being homosexual is rather common and very possible, and that should be a sin between God and the person, who can repent for it. I know it is not an easy sin in Islam, but the death penalty is not to be applied for someone who is homosexual or have practiced it behind closed doors.

As for Sistani's fatwa, I never understood it and it was precisely the reason I stopped following him. Actually the fatwa was removed from the site because of the pressure external LGBT groups did, not because it was considered an error. Correct me if I am wrong, as this is an event I really am interested in knowing more about. And don't get me wrong, I respect the ayatollah a lot, I just found that a big clash for me. But he is pretty knowledgeable in my opinion, don't get my frustration with that fatwa as some sort of insult because it is not.

As for Iran, as far as it is stated, people punished with the death penalty were not punished merely for homosexuality but for other acts which are actual crimes, such as rape, drug dealing, etc. It is said there are no cases of death penalties applied only for having acted on homosexuality.

Edited by Bakir

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13 minutes ago, Sol 7 said:

Gee. I somehow get the feeling that that's really not much better.

Anyone have opinions on the matter that are considerably less Daesh-y?

There's nothing 'Daesh-y' about killing those who engage in these kinds of repulsive acts. It's an official Islamic punishment and you can even be burnt for something like sodomy.

Of course, I don't think there's anything wrong in being a homosexual in itself, provided you're not openly proud of it and seek to correct your ways through means of repentance and prayer. 

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34 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

v:44-45

Yeah. I know, and I explained it. God's doing is not supposed to be ours. You aren't supposed to repeat what God already did.

It can be argued that the form of homosexuality prevalent at the time and place has largely changed now. Same as how the form of Christianity at the time has changed now

 

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13 minutes ago, Marbles said:

No, there is no a priori provision to kill homosexuals. The punishment materializes only when all legal requirements have been met in a court of sharia law, which includes proof of homosexual sexual acts in public with witnesses.  Further to that, some would argue that this could only happen under a valid Islamic government led by an infallible Imam.

So, it is correct to say that killing or threatening to kill homosexuals today by any individual or group is absolutely Daes-y vigilantism which has no place in a civilised society.

But you still think that killing would be an appropriate response to it? 

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4 minutes ago, Sol 7 said:

But you still think that killing would be an appropriate response to it? 

No, I would not trust anyone with the homosexual equivalent of witch-hunting unless it was an infallible commanding it, which would be like Allah commanding it.

So practically no.

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25 minutes ago, Vestige said:

There's nothing 'Daesh-y' about killing those who engage in these kinds of repulsive acts. It's an official Islamic punishment and you can even be burnt for something like sodomy.

Of course, I don't think there's anything wrong in being a homosexual in itself, provided you're not openly proud of it and seek to correct your ways through means of repentance and prayer. 

Look, that's just a really barbaric or at best outdated view, just because it's the status quo now in some Shariah countries  doesn't mean it's right. 

It is extremism. Compared to what is considered normal by the rest of the world and by the average Muslim. Most Muslims think it's a sin, but to advocate death for them? Nothing inherently wrong with viewing homosexuality as a sin. But when you say that death is an appropriate measure for it, thats when you cross the line into seriously dangerous territory. And it just gives Ultranationalists in Europe and America more fuel to hate us.

 

 

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Salam,

1 minutes ago, Marbles said:

No, there is no a priori provision to kill homosexuals. The punishment materializes only when all legal requirements have been met in a court of sharia law, which includes proof of homosexual sexual acts in public with witnesses.  Further to that, some would argue that this could only happen under a valid Islamic government led by an infallible Imam.

So, it is correct to say that killing or threatening to kill homosexuals today by any individual or group is absolutely Daes-y vigilantism which has no place in a civilised society.

Right. My point was that in Islam punishments for homosexuality can be carried out and that death penalties do exist, provided the person meets the necessary stipulations, of course as you correctly pointed out. 

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1 hour ago, Sol 7 said:

Salaam Alaikum Brothers and Sisters.

Okay. Right. Homosexuality. 

I recently read a Hadith that say Homosexuals should be killed. 

The Prophet (saws) said: (1) "Kill the one who sodomizes and the one who lets if be done to him." (Sahih Bukhari and Muslim ruled by Tirmidhi, a sahih (authentic) hadith)

Alright, I'm not one to blindly follow Hadith if I think theres a difference of opinion among my pirs, or a contradiction to either the Qur'an or the Sunna. Viewing Homosexuality as a sin is one thing, but believing they should be killed? That seems quite wrong to me. 

Look, I get that Shi'a don't follow the "Sahih" Hadith. 

But Ayatollah Ali al Sistani, one of the most followed, if not the most followed (Besides Khamenei) actually called for Gays to be killed. http://pointdebasculecanada.ca/wave-of-attacks-against-homosexuals-in-iraq-after-ayatollah-al-sistani-issued-fatwa-calling-for-the-execution-of-gays-in-the-worst-most-severe-way/ 

He later withdrew that fatwa. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Iran kills Gays as well. A Penalty supported in full by Ayatollah Khamenei.

Even if you don't follow the same Hadith, you still practice the same thing. 

I understand viewing Homosexuality as a sin. But do you guys here really support Homosexuals being killed? 

In Shi'a Islam, the penalty for the act of sodomy can be death. A Shi'a Islamic country like Iran, implement this punishment according to Ja'fari Fiqh standards. 

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5 minutes ago, Vestige said:

Salam,

Right. My point was that in Islam punishments for homosexuality can be carried out and that death penalties do exist, provided the person meets the necessary stipulations, of course as you correctly pointed out. 

Yeah, but when you defend it as the Morally right thing to do. That's when we run into some problems. Sure, it can be viewed as a Sin. But a sin worthy of Death? No. 

I'm not a "Liberal" Muslim. I just think that you shouldn't view killing for something like Homosexuality is an okay thing to do in the 21st century.

 

Edited by Sol 7

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10 minutes ago, Sol 7 said:

Look, that's just a really barbaric or at best outdated view, just because it's the status quo now in some Shariah countries  doesn't mean it's right. 

It is extremism. Compared to what is considered normal by the rest of the world and by the average Muslim. Most Muslims think it's a sin, but to advocate death for them? Nothing inherently wrong with viewing homosexuality as a sin. But when you say that death is an appropriate measure for it, thats when you cross the line into seriously dangerous territory. And it just gives Ultranationalists in Europe and America more fuel to hate us.

 

 

Perhaps my notions are being misconstrued. Look, I'm not saying go and kill every gay you find, just that the person is applicable for the death penalty for their sin. It's not my view that they should be executed for their acts, it's Islam's view.

Edited by Vestige

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1 minute ago, Sol 7 said:

Yeah, but when you defend it as the Morally right thing to do. That's when we run into some problems. Sure, it can be viewed as a Sin. But a sin worthy of Death? No. 

I'm not a "Liberal" Muslim. I just think that you shouldn't view killing for something like Homosexuality is an okay thing to do now. 

It's just...not right. 

Again, I'm not saying that the homosexual should be killed for being homosexual, but what would you do to the person who openly, unashamedly sins like that in an Islamic State?

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3 minutes ago, Vestige said:

Perhaps my notions are being misconstrued. Look, I'm not saying go and kill every gay you find, just that the sin is applicable for the death penalty. It's not my view that they should be executed for their acts, it's Islam's view.

Sort of generalizing. Islam isn't your possession. Nor, frankly is it the possession of any Ulema. 

And even with the Ulema, the Ulema of Albania, Bosnia, Bahrain, All of Central Asia, Most of Indonesia, Turkey and Northern Cyprus would have to disagree. as well as my Pirs.

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3 minutes ago, Sol 7 said:

Sort of generalizing. Islam isn't your possession. Nor, frankly is it the possession of any Ulema. 

And even with the Ulema, the Ulema of Albania, Bosnia, Bahrain, All of Central Asia, Most of Indonesia, Turkey and Northern Cyprus would have to disagree. as well as my Pirs.

Ok, but do you agree that if an Imam (pbuh) was commanding the punishment it would be alright? 

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4 minutes ago, Vestige said:

Again, I'm not saying that the homosexual should be killed for being homosexual, but what would you do to the person who openly, unashamedly sins like that in an Islamic State?

Personally, I would not care as long as it wasn't like the Homosexuality of Lot's people 

1) Promiscuous

2) Out in the Open. 

3) Out of Pure Lust

4) Ritualistic

I don't believe Shariah should be part of a state. That purpose was served with the Dar al Islam of Muhammad and The Caliphate. But be the domestic and moral guide for a person. That morality can and should be present in Leaders. But I Imagine some of what we think is moral differs slightly.

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3 minutes ago, Vestige said:

Ok, but do you agree that if an Imam (pbuh) was commanding the punishment it would be alright? 

Well, I'm not exactly Shi'a. 

Part of the reason why is that I believe no man is infallible. They can be righteous, exalted and pure of intent and of good character. but Infalliability belongs to Allah alone.

If the Mahdi ordered it... Something like that seriously goes against my values...Values that will never, ever change. Not gonna lie, I would probably not think it was the Mahdi anymore. As that is not a viewpoint of compassion or pragmatism. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Sol 7 said:

Personally, I would not care as long as it wasn't like the Homosexuality of Lot's people 

1) Promiscuous

2) Out in the Open. 

3) Out of Pure Lust

4) Ritualistic

So your problem is the way in which the sin is performed and not the sin itself?

9 minutes ago, Sol 7 said:

I don't believe Shariah should be part of a state. 

I think that's where we differ then. 

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Any topic of this sort is bound to foster diverse opinions on all sides. In my understanding, correct me if I am false, homosexuality is not punishable by death in the Qur'an? It is true the story of Lot involved those who committed homosexual acts, however, the punishment was dictated by Allah swt, and not man. I was of the belief that homosexual acts were deemed acts of adultery, and those are not prescribed with death penalty in the Qur'an. We cannot conflate the sin with the sinner; that is, we condemn the sin but do not denounce the individual to utter abyss. If an individual cheats on their husband/wife, which is an abhorrent act considered by Allah swt, I don't think many Muslims would be calling for their heads to be chopped clean off. But why with homosexuality? What is it about this sin that makes people so adamant in the death penalty. I see so many Muslims jumping to defend those who cheat: aka she's cold/disinterested, or he's unwarm/aloof. No one makes any excuses for homosexual acts: there's no "He's surrounded by a culture which celebrates homosexuality" or "he's sexually frustrated/not married." Nothing. Perhaps a it is because we know we will not commit  homosexual acts and will most likely never will, therefore, it is easy to judge a sin we think we are so above others to not commit. We do nothing to bring homosexuals to Islam--we reject them outright, show hatred, and essentially turn them away from Islam because we were apparently created better than them. How about instead of telling homsexuals to die, we tell them about the forgiveness of Allah swt if they seek refuge in Him, and that their struggle leads to a greater reward? I fear our egos cannot bear such

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3 minutes ago, Vestige said:

So your problem is the way in which the sin is performed and not the sin itself?

No, depending on how an act is performed determines if it's a sin or not. 

Take Killing for example. Killing a murderer of Innocents, like killing a member of Daesh or (in my opinion) a Wahhabi or Nazi, would not be a Sin. Neither would killing anyone in self defense. 

Killing someone for a minor transgression, or killing a noncombatant in a war, or a child, or killing a non Muslim because he doesn't follow Islam is, I think, a Sin.

Islam allows all kinds of stuff with restrictions, no matter what version of Shariah or your personal conclusion of your creed/movement of your branch of your subschool of your school of Shari'ah is. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Marbles said:

 

Accidentally quoted you, sorry.

6 minutes ago, ~ThePond~ said:

Any topic of this sort is bound to foster diverse opinions on all sides. In my understanding, correct me if I am false, homosexuality is not punishable by death in the Qur'an? It is true the story of Lot involved those who committed homosexual acts, however, the punishment was dictated by Allah swt, and not man. I was of the belief that homosexual acts were deemed acts of adultery, and those are not prescribed with death penalty in the Qur'an. We cannot conflate the sin with the sinner; that is, we condemn the sin but do not denounce the individual to utter abyss. If an individual cheats on their husband/wife, which is an abhorrent act considered by Allah swt, I don't think many Muslims would be calling for their heads to be chopped clean off. But why with homosexuality? What is it about this sin that makes people so adamant in the death penalty. I see so many Muslims jumping to defend those who cheat: aka she's cold/disinterested, or he's unwarm/aloof. No one makes any excuses for homosexual acts: there's no "He's surrounded by a culture which celebrates homosexuality" or "he's sexually frustrated/not married." Nothing. Perhaps a it is because we know we will not commit  homosexual acts and will most likely never will, therefore, it is easy to judge a sin we think we are so above others to not commit. We do nothing to bring homosexuals to Islam--we reject them outright, show hatred, and essentially turn them away from Islam because we were apparently created better than them. How about instead of telling homsexuals to die, we tell them about the forgiveness of Allah swt if they seek refuge in Him, and that their struggle leads to a greater reward? I fear our egos cannot bear such

I will comment on where you're wrong based Shi'i Islamic Fiqh.

(1) The punishment of sodomy in Shi'a Islam can be death. As for other acts of homosexuality, they can be punished with lashing. (I'm talking strictly about men, not women).

(2) The punishment for adultery is also death in Shi'a Islam. Now, before you go quote Surat al-Nur, the Surah is talking about fornication (sex before marriage), adultery is when someone who is married and has a parter goes on to have an affair with someone else. This is punishable by death in Shi'a Islam.

This article may be helpful for everyone to understand better. Salam.

http://www.al-islam.org/greater-sins-volume-1-ayatullah-sayyid-abdul-husayn-dastghaib-shirazi/eleventh-greater-sin-sodomy#punishment-sodomy

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1 hour ago, Vestige said:

 

Imam ar-Riďa (a.s.) has remarked,

“When a person kisses a young man sensually, the angels of the sky, the angels of the earth, the angels of mercy, and the angels of wrath curse him. And Allah decrees for him a place in Hell. O, what a dreadful place it is!”1

Amir ul-Mu’minīn ‘Ali (a.s.): “If anybody deserves to be stoned to death twice, it is the homosexual.

Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s): Certainly Allah destroyed a complete Umma (Umma of Hazrat Lut (a.s.) because they indulged in sodomy. Allah has not destroyed even one man for adultery”.1

Amir ul-Mu’minīn ‘Ali (a.s.) has said:

“Sodomy is a Greater Sin and carries punishment when a man mounts upon another man but does not penetrate. If he penetrates, it is kufr”.3

http://www.al-islam.org/greater-sins-volume-1-ayatullah-sayyid-abdul-husayn-dastghaib-shirazi/eleventh-greater-sin-sodomy#f_884cbd99_10

http://www.al-islam.org/greater-sins-volume-1-ayatullah-sayyid-abdul-husayn-dastghaib-shirazi/eleventh-greater-sin-sodomy#f_f7ebf55f_3

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I mean. I'm completely fine with people finding Homosexuality a Sin. No problem at all. After all, thats the consensus of Scholars. 

 But those in Secular countries like my own, who think it's a sin befitting of specifically death or lashings should be deported back to someplace that runs on their brand of Shari'ah. Because frankly. That is a threat to civilized values. 

 

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1 hour ago, Sol 7 said:

I mean. I'm completely fine with people finding Homosexuality a Sin. No problem at all. After all, thats the consensus of Scholars. 

 But those in Secular countries like my own, who think it's a sin befitting of specifically death or lashings should be deported back to someplace that runs on their brand of Shari'ah. Because frankly. That is a threat to civilized values. 

 

Is it even possible to bring Sharia law to secular non-Islam country? I don't think so, well at least if the government vote for it and people accept it.

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Bismillah.

Salaam.

The punishment of this action is death penalty but we have to consider this important point that such a sin can be proved in court very hard and rarely (and naturally impossible to be proven) because there are very restricted conditions.

With Duas.

Narsis.

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6 hours ago, Sol 7 said:

 

It can be argued that the form of homosexuality prevalent at the time and place has largely changed now. Same as how the form of Christianity at the time has changed now

 

Willfull ignorance is not an option for a conscientious person. For instance, if awareness comes to you regarding the complexity of sexuality and the ways in which it manifests and is experienced it would seem neglectful, in the very least, to disregard that knowledge when attempting to reconcile a reasonable position on the subject. Its not just a matter of understanding what the sources are representing, its also a matter of understanding the nature of the subjects that the sources are referring to.

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5 hours ago, The Batman said:

Accidentally quoted you, sorry.

I will comment on where you're wrong based Shi'i Islamic Fiqh.

(1) The punishment of sodomy in Shi'a Islam can be death. As for other acts of homosexuality, they can be punished with lashing. (I'm talking strictly about men, not women).

(2) The punishment for adultery is also death in Shi'a Islam. Now, before you go quote Surat al-Nur, the Surah is talking about fornication (sex before marriage), adultery is when someone who is married and has a parter goes on to have an affair with someone else. This is punishable by death in Shi'a Islam.

This article may be helpful for everyone to understand better. Salam.

http://www.al-islam.org/greater-sins-volume-1-ayatullah-sayyid-abdul-husayn-dastghaib-shirazi/eleventh-greater-sin-sodomy#punishment-sodomy

Thank you for correcting me, brother. I guess my only point is to guide those who have homosexual inclinations towards Islam. Verily it is better to save a soul, than let it die.

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It's hard but I think some of you here have shown very nice approaches actually. From my perspective (struggling with same sex attraction and muslim), I will give my opinion on the issue, keeping also in mind the opinion of others:

It is one potential sin more for those struggling with the unwanted desire. What does this mean? That in certain moments of weakness or phases in life in which we may experiment dissatisfaction with religion we may indulge in the sin one way or another (maybe not going so far by indulging in sex). These phases are not easy especially for a muslim, and bottling it up isn't positive either. We see Christians doing an excellent job at this point. They actually talk about the issue, offer support and real guidance. And definitely are over the death penalty/killing thing.

From my very personal experience with other muslims facing it, I can tell you that being open and talkative about it is way better and allows us to avoid certain unwanted experiences in life. It is hard to convince other gays to talk about it with their families (believe me they sometimes expect the worst when they shouldn't, especially if they want support in the struggling rather than mere acceptance). That's why muslim societies should overcome this stigma and be more supporting, as I can assure you most youths struggling with this desire would commit to certain point to fight against it if they receive support from their families. I myself have helped another fellow muslim struggling with it in the past to take distance from homosexuality.

Sadly this is the debate we keep having at ShiaChat: do they have to be killed or not? This forum is full of threads about this topic and there are barely threads that are actually helpful in matters of understanding or overcoming certain problems. And I honestly abstain from sharing my experience and advices due to the hateful replies I may and will get if I dare to make a thread (also because I don't want to anger brother DV xD!)

Edited by Bakir

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from Nahjul Balagha

"Every person who is tempted to go astray does not deserve punishment" -Imam Ali (a.s)

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