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Caliguy

Pornography Vs Non Marriage relationships in the West?

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Asalamalekum,

While both are Haram in Islam and even christianity. I would like to know why in the Western society many people accept "live in relationships, GF and BF culture, sex before marriage. But at the same time people in the West generally believe pornography is disgusting, is a sin, morally corrupt, destroys relationships, etc.?

Thanks!

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Pornography isn't seen as something morally corrupt generally speaking, remember that the Western society barely has sexual morals to deem pornography as morally corrupt. However, it is common to encourage real relationships over pornography, as they offer more to the person (not only in a sexual sense, but in a personal and social sense). And I agree to that. You can do it in a halal way through mutah, if you meet someone you truly develop an emotional bond with.

I find it hard to explain though, considering the way you have done your question. You are thinking in terms of sin, when the issue is more related to social development of the people and their relationships with other individuals. Of course it is preferred for someone to go out and meet other people and develop certain love relationship with them instead of staying at home watching porn.

However, definitely, porn isn't seen as bad as you have described it. It is even seen as an actual didactic resource.

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in western society it is believed "  "live in relationships, GF and BF culture, sex before marriage " is healthy, however pornography is seen as as negative as it apparently portrays a fake and distorted view of how sex should be, for example feminists often say abuse and humiliation of women is a common theme in porn videos

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On 11/22/2015, 11:42:03, Bakir said:

Pornography isn't seen as something morally corrupt generally speaking, remember that the Western society barely has sexual morals to deem pornography as morally corrupt. However, it is common to encourage real relationships over pornography, as they offer more to the person (not only in a sexual sense, but in a personal and social sense). And I agree to that. You can do it in a halal way through mutah, if you meet someone you truly develop an emotional bond with.

I wouldn't agree with this assessment entirely, for most people who care to spend more than 5 seconds thinking about this issue, pornography is seen as degradation of women, which is what it really is, there are practical as well as moral reasons for opposing it.  There are some liberal idiots who tend to argue it to be some form of female emancipated expression but that isn't very different from libertarians thinking markets are free.  You do not require a religious source of ethics to deem it immoral and disgusting. Masturbation of course is a different story

Edited by King

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2 hours ago, King said:

I wouldn't agree with this assessment entirely, for most people who care to spend more than 5 seconds thinking about this issue, pornography is seen as degradation of women, which is what it really is, there are practical as well as moral reasons for opposing it.  There are some liberal idiots who tend to argue it to be some form of female emancipated expression but that isn't very different from libertarians thinking markets are free.  You do not require a religious source of ethics to deem it immoral and disgusting. Masturbation of course is a different story

 

How is masturbation a different story?

Without pornography, how can there even be masturbation?

 

 

I understand it is physically possible on the individual level; however, the primary agent in spreading masturbation as a social phenomenon and as a common addiction, is pornography. The two have a very clear relationship.

 

Re: morals

Morals can be divided into three categories: 1) divine morals, 2) divine morals which certain people have a misguided notion that they are man-made, and 3) man-made morals which are completely manufactured and illegitimate (i.e. "it's my body and I can grow or stop the growth of whatever I want within the confines of my body").

 

It makes no sense for God to exist but His morals to be incomplete or not comprehensive. So of course, many people -- due to fitrah -- may reach a correct moral conclusion without knowing about God or His apostles. But this does not mean there is a separate moral system at play here; it simply means that people are not correctly identifying the source of their morals.

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@King, as I said, "generally" speaking, it is not seen as morally corrupt.

In the porn industry there is variety of content. Here in Spain there is even an independent movement led by a woman to make porn for women specifically. The porn industry is dehumanized (I have known three people with different jobs who are into it). It is disgusting, but it is generally not deemed to be morally wrong as a whole. There is variety, and it is up to the individual freedom of anyone to participate in it or not.

In the second hand you are judging the message, the content, while I was merely speaking about the industry. As I said previously, there is also porn for women, the content may vary. In the West, sex with consent isn't judged by any type of sexual morals generally. The porn industry, essentially, isn't seen as morally corrupt. Many couples even take a camera and do their own porn movie by themselves (this type of movies are generally known as "amateur" porn). Some may see degradation of women there, but most people wouldn't see it like that. I find it hard to believe that majority of western people would deem something like amateur porn to be morally evil or corrupt.

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I think Bakir has a point here. Most common objections to pornography revolve around excessive and skewed representation of actual, real sexual relationships. We often hear concerns about young people getting their (false) sex education from instant porn and how that's damaging their perspectives and expectations when they get involved in real life scenarios. Throw into the equation the argument that it is male-driven and objectifies women by portraying them as playthings and you'll find - and I quote - feminist porn niche that attempts to fix the power imbalance by putting women in charge in some way. The emphasis is on consent and how much porn actress find themselves at ease during a performance, not on the fact of their being naked on camera. The moral argument against porn seems to be rather weak and usually comes from the conservative-religious camp who want to keep something of the good old morality alive.

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9 hours ago, baradar_jackson said:

 

How is masturbation a different story?

Without pornography, how can there even be masturbation?

Do you really think men would not masturbate if porn wasn't around?  That is incredibly naive.

4 hours ago, Bakir said:

@King, as I said, "generally" speaking, it is not seen as morally corrupt.

In the porn industry there is variety of content. Here in Spain there is even an independent movement led by a woman to make porn for women specifically. The porn industry is dehumanized (I have known three people with different jobs who are into it). It is disgusting, but it is generally not deemed to be morally wrong as a whole. There is variety, and it is up to the individual freedom of anyone to participate in it or not.

In the second hand you are judging the message, the content, while I was merely speaking about the industry. As I said previously, there is also porn for women, the content may vary. In the West, sex with consent isn't judged by any type of sexual morals generally. The porn industry, essentially, isn't seen as morally corrupt. Many couples even take a camera and do their own porn movie by themselves (this type of movies are generally known as "amateur" porn). Some may see degradation of women there, but most people wouldn't see it like that. I find it hard to believe that majority of western people would deem something like amateur porn to be morally evil or corrupt.

I was focusing on industry as well where things become even more morally objectionable. You can find a bunch of idiots who will try to morally and practically justify what goes on in the industry, such movements exist outside of Spain to, they are by no means indicative of the general attitudes towards pornography as western scholarship repeatedly refers to the harm it causes to female participants, not just emphasize the effects on others.  Any semi-observant individual can see pornography screams degradation and exploitation of women, far before the question of free expression arises, it isn't a trivial matter, it far outweighs other factors.  It is a similar case when it comes to prostitution, yes there are people who will defend a woman's right to offer her services for money, but in a greater context, almost everyone sees the prostitution industry as a highly exploitative one in which the vast majority of women would rather not participate.  Pornstars typically come from damaged backgrounds, are typically severely ill-informed, and usually quite young when they get started.  There are sound moral arguments against the strict use of women purely as a means to an end, even Kant wrote about this centuries ago, it is common sense.

 

 

Edited by King

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People object to porn because it a) reduces human beings to their ability to sexually excite and b) utilises that sexuality as a unit of commerce

This is objectification x 2 and dehumanisation is disturbing. Everyone wants the consideration expected from one human being to another human being and when it becomes acceptible to deny that to people it makes people uneasy.

Non-marital romantic relationships arent seen or experienced as dehumanising when people feel like theyre appreciated as full (spiritual/intelligent/emotional/physical) human beings in them.

 

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, King said:

Do you really think men would not masturbate if porn wasn't around?  That is incredibly naive.

I was focusing on industry as well where things become even more morally objectionable. You can find a bunch of idiots who will try to morally and practically justify what goes on in the industry, such movements exist outside of Spain to, they are by no means indicative of the general attitudes towards pornography as western scholarship repeatedly refers to the harm it causes to female participants, not just emphasize the effects on others.  Any semi-observant individual can see pornography screams degradation and exploitation of women, far before the question of free expression arises, it isn't a trivial matter, it far outweighs other factors.  It is a similar case when it comes to prostitution, yes there are people who will defend a woman's right to offer her services for money, but in a greater context, almost everyone sees the prostitution industry as a highly exploitative one in which the vast majority of women would rather not participate.  Pornstars typically come from damaged backgrounds, are typically severely ill-informed, and usually quite young when they get started.  There are sound moral arguments against the strict use of women purely as a means to an end, even Kant wrote about this centuries ago, it is common sense.

 

 

But in such a case, it is not the porn itself the one seen as morally wrong, but certain practices within it (and regardless how widespread these are, these practices cannot define porn by themselves). Same goes for prostitution now that you mention it.

One basic aspect of western society is the relativity of morals when it comes to certain individual personal topics, such as sexual ethics. If one wants to prostitute, there is nothing morally wrong in it. If one is abused, or is forced to get into prostitution, then that's another issue. Most prostitutes would prefer not to get into prostitution (there are some who like sex and like their job though actually, and tend to choose and discriminate their clients), but that doesn't mean prostitution is morally wrong by itself. Whatever the messsage porn communicates generally (which I agree that degrades both women and men), it doesn't make porn as morally wrong but the way porn is done.

If someone decided, out of personal pleasure, to get into porn or prostitution, I would find it very rare in the West to see that person criticized for it.

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