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In the Name of God بسم الله
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Ali-F

How Do We Explain Stoning In The West?

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Salaam.

 

There's no shadow of doubt that stoning is also a part of tasayyhu. No one can deny this.

 

Now, living in the West, it may be difficult to explain this concept or punishment of stoning.

 

For example, I listened to the radio, where the host attacked the concept of stoning, where he on-air told people how grusome stoning was, and so on. He was referring to Hizb ut Tahrir, who believed in this. 

 

Now, as a shiite, and a person who lives in the West, I may find it difficult - or I actually find it difficult, to explain stoning.

 

I listened to Sayed Khalil Tabatabai, and he indeed gave some good explanations, but his explanations was not about "stoning" itself, but rather how difficult it was to be stoned.

 

Now, I hope anyone can help me.

 

Regards.

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Stoning is not in the Quran. 

 

Adultery or any sex outside of marriage:

[shakir 24:2] (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.
[shakir 24:3] The fornicator shall not marry any but a fornicatress or idolatress, and (as for) the fornicatress, none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolater; and it is forbidden to the believers.
[shakir 24:4] And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them, (giving) eighty stripes, and do not admit any evidence from them ever; and these it is that are the transgressors,
[shakir 24:5] Except those who repent after this and act aright, for surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[shakir 24:6] And (as for) those who accuse their wives and have no witnesses except themselves, the evidence of one of these (should be taken) four times, bearing Allah to witness that he is most surely of the truthful ones.
[shakir 24:7] And the fifth (time) that the curse of Allah be on him if he is one of the liars.
[shakir 24:8] And it shall avert the chastisement from her if she testify four times, bearing Allah to witness that he is most surely one of the liars;
[shakir 24:9] And the fifth (time) that the wrath of Allah be on her if he is one of the truthful.

 

Lewdness and indecency:

[shakir 4:15] And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.

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Salam,

 

As a member just mentioned, these severe punishments have been mentioned in Christianity and Judaism also. Of course we can't deny this, it is within the Sharia and shouldn't shy away from explaining it. Stoning isn't in the Qur'an but rather, lashing for adultery etc. I'm not knowledgable enough to confidently say how far scholars have derived stoning from ahadith and whether it is contested or not. So for the sake of the lashes which is in there, then I say the following:

 

The important thing to remember when explaining to people who do not understand this concept is that as Muslims, we find stoning, lashes etc just as severe. Now depending on the country and its system, the implementation of the Sharia can vary. Understandably, Western liberal notions have 'securitized' fundamentals of Islamic Law for their benefit, and sensationalized concepts which are the last resort. Things like stoning, burqa, lashes, punishment. They are all hard concepts to understand in democratic societies which assume Islam to be backward and against their social, economic and political norms. 

For example divorce. The steps to divorce someone, whether it be talaq or khula, are there because they are a deterrent to fully going ahead with a divorce. Allah swt has shown two people in a marriage the turmoil in seeking a divorce especially if it is absolutely unnecessary. Likewise with punishment as stated in the Qur'an. There has to be witnesses, there has to be justification. At the end of the day these are deterrents, as are the descriptions of Hell to the believers and disbelievers. 

 

Allah swt does not wish any of these punishments against His creation. When explaining this to someone, you need to highlight that within every religion there is a corresponding set of punishment that are a. the last resort and b. varying in implementation especially regarding what context the person is in. The beauty of Islam within Western legal frameworks is that it doesn't denote parading around this concept of capital punishment and it's the people who do so which feed the fire in Western media. You can't implement the punishment if you are not under a COMPLETE, ABSOLUTE Sharia government. 

 

This is the best that I can explain it. At the end of the day it is contextual, dependent on government & implementation and most importantly, a deterrent to what is forbidden & disliked by Allah swt. 

 

WS! :)

Edited by Blissful

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There is no room for debate for it in the West without the debate being merely logical/philosophical and under the assumption that Islam is the Truth.

That already takes several assumptions, one of them is that there is a Truth (the Western society tends to be pretty much relativistic) and that Islam is the Truth (or any other religion focusing in a life after death).

Thus, stoning is justified by religious beliefs (what is important are not the contents of the beliefs, but that they are just beliefs).

In the West, the death penalty has proven to be inefficient (proven by numbers and statistics, refer to the book Reflections on the Guillotine, which I commonly quote for this purpose). In the book you won't only find the quantitative research defending the opposition to the death penalty, but also why it is ethically and socially harmful.

I am unable to see benefits in the death penalty in the West (even though it takes place). Thus you can only defend your position by making clear these are BELIEFS (if you truly believe death penalty is part of your religious beliefs).

Edited by Bakir

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A little short derailing, but why do most people assume God created death penalty as a deterrent punishment?

That's not the the goal.....it never was!

Because that sounds like a more lenient approach to death penalty, when the truth is that it can be applied and it is to be applied. My previous post was based on western philosophy, acknowledging that under certain religious beliefs, it can make sense for someone to be burned alive or stoned to death to get "purified" from his sins. Of course, as I said in my previous post, you have to take as true a lot of assumptions:

There is a truth

Islam is the truth

The accussed person is a sinner and has to be purified

Through stoning, he receives his judgement and purification

Thus I asked you Ali, do you actually believe in this? Because if you do, you need not to justify it but to say that it is part of your beliefs, and refer to Islam in such a case. Don't expect anyone to smile and approve of such explanation though.

Now, as a personal advice from me, whether you believe and are in favour of death penalty, I would advise you to perform taqiyah. Research on the topic when the time comes and build your own arguments.

Edited by Bakir

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Stoning is mentioned in the Bible too.

 

Here are some examples:

 

Lev 20: 2  for burning children to Moloch (Bel, Baal)

 

Lev 20:27 for being a fortuneteller, medium,  prophetic mystic [see: Deut.13:1ff] with Ez 14:10

 

Lev 24:14 for cursing the God of Noah, Allah-swt

 

Num 15:35 for breaking the Sabbath

 

Deut. 13:11 for encouraging disbelief in the God of Noah,Allah-swt and (v.6) apostasy

 

Deut 17:5 for idolatry (praying to idols, Sun, Moon, Saints, etc)

 

Deut 21:21 "incorrigible son" 

 

Deut 22:25 a rapist

 

Ez 16: 2nd half,  stoning as idiom for jihada requiring community action

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This is very interesting, because I recall that we have a hadith (sahih btw) which says that striking the neck of the one who doesn't pay zakat and stoning the adulterer are only to be done by Imam al-Mahdi [as], or something similar. Of course this can be debated by the ulama themselves. And I think these are the only two Laws which are mentioned to he exclusive in a way.

Stoning is not in the Quran. 

 

Adultery or any sex outside of marriage:

[shakir 24:2] (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.[shakir 24:3] The fornicator shall not marry any but a fornicatress or idolatress, and (as for) the fornicatress, none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolater; and it is forbidden to the believers.[shakir 24:4] And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them, (giving) eighty stripes, and do not admit any evidence from them ever; and these it is that are the transgressors,[shakir 24:5] Except those who repent after this and act aright, for surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.[shakir 24:6] And (as for) those who accuse their wives and have no witnesses except themselves, the evidence of one of these (should be taken) four times, bearing Allah to witness that he is most surely of the truthful ones.[shakir 24:7] And the fifth (time) that the curse of Allah be on him if he is one of the liars.[shakir 24:8] And it shall avert the chastisement from her if she testify four times, bearing Allah to witness that he is most surely one of the liars;[shakir 24:9] And the fifth (time) that the wrath of Allah be on her if he is one of the truthful.

 

Lewdness and indecency:

[shakir 4:15] And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.

So you're rejecting the riwayat of Ahlulbayt which mention it as a punishment? The Holy Qur'an is talking about those who commit fornication before marriage, the ones who commit adultery (meaning fornication with another person whilst in marriage) are called muhsan fornicators.

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Bismih Ta'ala

Assalamu Alaykum

 

The whole topic is an aimless discussion. You will never justify the punishment of stoning an individual to secular and libertarian westerners.

 

This is very interesting, because I recall that we have a hadith (sahih btw) which says that striking the neck of the one who doesn't pay zakat and stoning the adulterer are only to be done by Imam al-Mahdi [as], or something similar. Of course this can be debated by the ulama themselves. And I think these are the only two Laws which are mentioned to he exclusive in a way.

 

وبهذا الاسناد، عن أبان بن تغلب قال: قال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام: دمان في الاسلام حلال من الله عزوجل لا يقضي فيهما أحد بحكم الله حتى يبعث الله عز وجل القائم من أهل البيت عليهم السلام، فيحكم فيهما بحكم الله عزوجل لا يريد على ذلك بينة: الزاني المحصن يرجمه، ومانع الزكاة يضرب رقبته. 

 

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/qiyam/fiqh-regarding-the-imam

 

Wallahu A'lam

 

Wa Assalam

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So you're rejecting the riwayat of Ahlulbayt which mention it as a punishment? The Holy Qur'an is talking about those who commit fornication before marriage, the ones who commit adultery (meaning fornication with another person whilst in marriage) are called muhsan fornicators.

Any time there is contention between a riwaya and quran, you have to reject the riwaya and accept the ayah.

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Bismih Ta'ala

Assalamu Alaykum

 

Any time there is contention between a riwaya and quran, you have to reject the riwaya and accept the ayah.

 

You've made a mistake, you mean that if a riwaya contradicts the Qur'an, then you take the Qur'an over the riwaya. And by a riwaya contradicting the Qur'an, I mean that it contradicts what the Qur'an is saying, not contradicts your interpretation of the Qur'an, or your interpolation of a few verses and interpretation of them. The Qur'an talks about ghayr-Muhasan (people unfortified sexually - single) while Rajm (stoning) is for the Muhasan (fortified sexually - married).

 

It will be useful if you read this chapter from Wasa'il Al-Shi'ahttp://www.*******.org/hadiths/hudud/fornication/chapter-1

 

Furthermore, you quote Qur'an, Al-Nisa', 4:15, yet the Imams say that this has been aborgated as the punishment for Zina:

 

في مجمع البيان «2»: عن الباقر و الصّادق- عليهما السّلام-: أنّ هذه الآية منسوخة

 

In Majma Al-Bayan, from Al-Baqir and Al-Sadiq (alayhuma assalam): "Verily this verse is abrogated".

 

Al-Mashhadi, Tafsir Kanz Al-Daqa'iq, vol. 9, pg. 240 (Tehran, 1990)

 

If stoning sounds like a cruel punishment, keep two things in mind. The harshest punishment in terms of its severity is the fires of the day of Qiyama, stoning the Muhasan is kaffara (atonement) for their crimes. In addition, how obscene and shameless is the Muhasan who fornicates, when they had a spouse for their sexual and emotional needs, and even more shameless is the one who is able to be caught by four individuals. There's no reason why we should fall for the nonsense of these western libertarians. Allah is the most knowing, if he has given a law and we don't see the reasoning, who are we? Creatures who came into existence 13 billion years after the start of the universe, and will be dead for God knows how many years after. While Allah is a being who has existed before there was time, and was Lord before there was anything to be Lord of. If you don't understand the wisdom being something, it's better to assume that you don't have the capability of knowing, rather than you assuming God is wrong.

 

Wa Assalam

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Wa alai kum as salaam brother,

 

You've made a mistake, you mean that if a riwaya contradicts the Qur'an, then you take the Qur'an over the riwaya. And by a riwaya contradicting the Qur'an, I mean that it contradicts what the Qur'an is saying, not contradicts your interpretation of the Qur'an, or your interpolation of a few verses and interpretation of them. The Qur'an talks about ghayr-Muhasan (people unfortified sexually - single) while Rajm (stoning) is for the Muhasan (fortified sexually - married).

 

Didnt I say the same thing - take quran over riwaya?

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You were interpreting those verses based on your understanding of them, the Ahlulbayt interpreted them differently.

 

Since we are nit picking. The Ahlulbayt are reported to have interpreted them differently. 

The interpretation that you are quoting has reached you via a 3rd party so you can only say that is reported as being said

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Remember the context in the Surah and when those verses were revealed was when a wife of Rasool was accused of adultery. 

 

I think people will prefer hadiths to Quran even when this clear, simply because they follow scholars who did the same.

 

The Quran could of easily said to non-married fornicators, but it didn't.

 

At the end, those who know better, know better. And lying against God is no easy sin in Quran, it's right up there with Shirk.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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Brother Ali-F,

 

The preconditions for such a punishment are almost next to impossible! Therefore according to various scholars stoning is not permissible as a punitive measure (per Islamic state judicial systems).

 

This does not imply that the Act itself is impermissible by the Divine Law (Sharia). But based on the prerequisites, one cannot appoint such a punishment without an infallible leader who can justly approve the preconditions.

 

​In the absence of the Infallible, Islamic Sharia or State Sharia is commonly defined to the employment of divine law only per what is considered practicable. Hence we can make a distinction between 'Divine Law' and 'Governing Law without an infallible'. Often when we are told something is not permissible (or vice versa) by Sharia, we should read along the lines as to whether this is representative of Gods Law in its entirety, or the applicable Judicial Law which is practicable in the absence of an infallible.

 

Some scholars acknowledge the impossible nature of such a punishment from materializing but insist it should be adopted as a fear tactic alone. Whereas other scholars disagree and insist it should be removed from the courts all-together to avoid misunderstanding. Either way, should the Judicial system adopt the punitive measure as a fear tactic or not, the punishment itself cannot be executed in the absence of an infallible.

 

I live in the UK and understand the dilemma of explaining Rajm to non-muslims. Hence it is important to note that the preconditions are a Mercy from Allah (s-w-t). Marriage is a contract in which man and woman declare their agreement with God as their protector and guardian. Adultery not only defies the contractual terms but God himself. Today in the West the ramifications of adultery and fornication are next to none hence the conscious mind fails to acknowledge the nature of such a crime. Adultery is one of the gravest of sins and yet Allah (s-w-t) protects Man and Woman from one of the gravest of penal punishments (Rajm) with stern and uncomprising prerequisites. That in itself gives Islam an edge over other monotheist religions as a religion of Mercy and Compassion.

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