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On Proving The Existence Of God:

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on proving the existence of God:

 

This subject is possibly among the most controversial. For me a feeling of certainty beyond rationale supports my belief in God; however, my rational view on it does definitely convince me and make me more sure of it. This can be discussed and proved in infinite ways, and i encourage anybody to kindly add their own perspective. I will go into some basic reasons that i see as clear proof from a rational and logical sense.

 

science:

 

1- Law of Thermodynamics (complicated name, but it isn't)

 

In today's scientific world we have what some call the 'Laws of Thermodynamics'. These laws are present in pretty much every physics book, no matter how simple. 
One of these laws states that 'energy can not be created or destroyed'. With this in mind, it means that according to science today the energy we have in the universe is constant. So when time and space began, the same amount of energy was present, as is today. This poses the question to the thinker of "where did this energy come from?". Obviously it had to come from a source that is beyond time and space. This source must be beyond time and space, making that Source infinite - because anything finite is linked to time and space. According to science, time and space did start at one point. Nowadays they call it the "Big Bang". 
There is a saying that "from nothing comes nothing". So this proves to the mind that there must be a source of all the energy in the universe who is beyond time and space (infinite).

 

2 - Law of Entropy: (again, don't be fooled by the name. it's a super simple concept)

 

In connection to the above we see in our surrounding world that everything moves from a state of higher organization to lower (energy moves from higher to lower state). Any object we leave long enough will fall apart - from from more to less organized. The only exception to this is life and living things. All living creatures take disorganized minerals and substances, and put them together into complex and organized systems. As soon as the spirit of that living creates leaves the body, it will disintegrate again, as does everything else. So this shows us that life is a miracle, and life in itself is a proof for the existence of God. Therefore, i believe all Godly religions tell us to look at growth and circles of life as proof for understanding the Divine. Life goes against all logic and rules around us. It is a spark of resistance in a world where everything goes from more to less organized.

 

3- Intelligent Design:

 

We know for fact that everything us humans design is the work of intelligence that flows through us. Our cars are only as advanced as our engineers and designers. Our computers only reach their potential set by the level of computer scientists. But we all agree that any design has to have a designer behind it. So when we look at nature, and the DNA code for instance, or how the laws of physics work, or how beautiful everything is. We can be sure 100% that there is a designer behind all this. Just like the saying above says "from nothing comes nothing", we can also say "it takes intelligence to create intelligence".

 

4 - First Mover:

 

This concept is used by Aristotle who was a monotheist. It relates directly to the first proof i used. A scientific concept says that one can not move without being moved. Or one can not push without being pushed. Basically, the energy i put out comes from somewhere, and it also always comes back. Like, when shooting a bullet from a gun, the gun will recoil (or push back) in the exact amount of energy that is used to push the bullet forward. At the same time the energy to move the bullet forward comes from stored chemical energy inside the bullet. This energy goes from organized energy into heat and sound and movement (kinetic) energy, as well as many other forms of degraded energy forces. 
So when taking into account that everything that happens, must originate from something else causing it, we logically must assume that there was a 'first pusher' .. that would be the equivalent of the initiator of the big bang for instance. It all had to start from someone. (some"One" because before time and space there was no Two .. )

I believe this is the reason why holy books talk about the movement of the sun and moon etc being evidence of God's existence for those who think. Possibly the question of "who created this?", or "who is moving this?", or "wow, what a beautiful design" .. "look at those graphics :)" , "who started this?" may come to mind.

 

That is how witnessing a sunset or sunrise could lead to bigger faith.

Edited by peace seeker II
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on proving the existence of God:

 

This subject is possibly among the most controversial. For me a feeling of certainty beyond rationale supports my belief in God; however, my rational view on it does definitely convince me and make me more sure of it. This can be discussed and proved in infinite ways, and i encourage anybody to kindly add their own perspective. I will go into some basic reasons that i see as clear proof from a rational and logical sense.

 

science:

 

1- Law of Thermodynamics (complicated name, but it isn't)

 

In today's scientific world we have what some call the 'Laws of Thermodynamics'. These laws are present in pretty much every physics book, no matter how simple. 

One of these laws states that 'energy can not be created or destroyed'. With this in mind, it means that according to science today the energy we have in the universe is constant. So when time and space began, the same amount of energy was present, as is today. This poses the question to the thinker of "where did this energy come from?". Obviously it had to come from a source that is beyond time and space. This source must be beyond time and space, making that Source infinite - because anything finite is linked to time and space. According to science, time and space did start at one point. Nowadays they call it the "Big Bang". 

There is a saying that "from nothing comes nothing". So this proves to the mind that there must be a source of all the energy in the universe who is beyond time and space (infinite).

 

2 - Law of Entropy: (again, don't be fooled by the name. it's a super simple concept)

 

In connection to the above we see in our surrounding world that everything moves from a state of higher organization to lower (energy moves from higher to lower state). Any object we leave long enough will fall apart - from from more to less organized. The only exception to this is life and living things. All living creatures take disorganized minerals and substances, and put them together into complex and organized systems. As soon as the spirit of that living creates leaves the body, it will disintegrate again, as does everything else. So this shows us that life is a miracle, and life in itself is a proof for the existence of God. Therefore, i believe all Godly religions tell us to look at growth and circles of life as proof for understanding the Divine. Life goes against all logic and rules around us. It is a spark of resistance in a world where everything goes from more to less organized.

 

3- Intelligent Design:

 

We know for fact that everything us humans design is the work of intelligence that flows through us. Our cars are only as advanced as our engineers and designers. Our computers only reach their potential set by the level of computer scientists. But we all agree that any design has to have a designer behind it. So when we look at nature, and the DNA code for instance, or how the laws of physics work, or how beautiful everything is. We can be sure 100% that there is a designer behind all this. Just like the saying above says "from nothing comes nothing", we can also say "it takes intelligence to create intelligence".

 

4 - First Mover:

 

This concept is used by Aristotle who was a monotheist. It relates directly to the first proof i used. A scientific concept says that one can not move without being moved. Or one can not push without being pushed. Basically, the energy i put out comes from somewhere, and it also always comes back. Like, when shooting a bullet from a gun, the gun will recoil (or push back) in the exact amount of energy that is used to push the bullet forward. At the same time the energy to move the bullet forward comes from stored chemical energy inside the bullet. This energy goes from organized energy into heat and sound and movement (kinetic) energy, as well as many other forms of degraded energy forces. 

So when taking into account that everything that happens, must originate from something else causing it, we logically must assume that there was a 'first pusher' .. that would be the equivalent of the initiator of the big bang for instance. It all had to start from someone. (some"One" because before time and space there was no Two .. )

I believe this is the reason why holy books talk about the movement of the sun and moon etc being evidence of God's existence for those who think. Possibly the question of "who created this?", or "who is moving this?", or "wow, what a beautiful design" .. "look at those graphics :)" , "who started this?" may come to mind.

 

That is how witnessing a sunset or sunrise could lead to bigger faith.

Salam,

I find these proofs are highly problematic.

1) I don't think scientists say that the Big Bang proves that there was a beginning to time and space and energy. They say it was infinitesimally small particle (but I don't think there is agreement whether it actually was nothing before). Assuming energy began, how does this mean God created everything? If God created everything in that point in time (when the Big Bang happened) then it means God created in time! It would mean God has a before. If anything the Big Bang would prove that there is a limited god. Also, maybe there are some mysterious laws outside the laws of this Big Bang universe which can account for the existence of the Big Bang. Why does it have to be God who did it? What if there are mysterious aliens who defy our laws and who, made this entire universe as a game to see what happens. That would seem to make more sense because that would explain why there is so much suffering in the world.

2) It assumes so many things just because the scientists of today think so. What if tomorrow there is a theory which disproves the so called "law of thermodynamics"? What if we discovery something about quantum particles which will explain that things actually start from chaos and then get organized. In a sense, many scientists of today will say that the world (despite thermodynamics) gets more and more organized. They will point to chemical evolution of the elements, evolution of the galaxies, solar systems and of the planets. Then finally they will point to biological evolution.

3) Intelligent Design proves a Deistic God at best. In any case, why doesn't God Himself require an ever more intelligent designer?

4) If God is the first mover then He has a before. And if He has a before He is limited to time.

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on proving the existence of God:

 

This subject is possibly among the most controversial. For me a feeling of certainty beyond rationale supports my belief in God; however, my rational view on it does definitely convince me and make me more sure of it. This can be discussed and proved in infinite ways, and i encourage anybody to kindly add their own perspective. I will go into some basic reasons that i see as clear proof from a rational and logical sense.

 

science:

 

 

 

Science?
 
The supernatural is never a protagonist in scientific calculations.
 
The thinking is If God affects the universe, God is observable within the universe.
If there is nothing observable about God, then it's the same as non-existence. 
 
Yours are not proofs, they are evidence of your desire to believe.
You seem to be basing the premise on the conclusion, instead of basing it on evidence. 
You need to structure your argument so that it reflects evidence, not your theory. 
 
 
1) and 2) Thermodynamics and Entropy. 
 
The Law of Conservation shows that Energy/Matter can neither be created nor destroyed...therefore it has no beginning, it is eternal.  No creator required.
 
The Big Bang is an event that happened to existing Energy /Matter, something was already there.
Energy merely changes forms, and basic elements combine and recombine into complex structures using energy as a catalyst.
 
Instead you appear to assume that there was once nothing, and then there was something. 
Why do you assume that? Why is " nothing" the default position? 
 
You are making a claim that matter has a beginning. The entire burden of proof is on the person making the claim.
That is the logical way these exchanges work. 
 
Entropy, the measure of a system’s thermal energy per unit temperature that is unavailable for doing useful 'work'. Because work is obtained from ordered molecular motion, the amount of entropy is also a measure of the molecular disorder, or randomness, of a closed system. 
 
But the earth is not a closed system; sunlight (with low entropy) shines on it and heat (with higher entropy) radiates off. This flow of energy, and the change in entropy that accompanies it, can and will power local decreases in entropy on earth. Life on Earth.
In short, order from disorder happens on earth all the time. 
 
3) Intelligent Design.
 
Debunked many times, even in the US Federal Court.
 
Your rule/principle: intelligence suggests a creator
 
Your unjustified exemption: God. Intelligent yet needs no creator. 
Do look up 'Special pleading'.
 
4) Prime Mover, First Cause
 
Let's assume there was a First Cause, there are many possible candidates for the role: the God you believe in; Plato's demiurge; a new age force (Star Wars may the force be with you); space aliens from another galaxy; time travellers; or an unknown intelligent being.
 
Also a first cause does not need to be God; a starting point doesn't need to be supernatural or Intelligent. Why do you think it does? 
 
How do you identify that First Cause with your God, what steps do you take to reach that conclusion?
 
wslm.
*
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Salaam all

@ ethereal

1)

The expression "infinitesimally small particle" does not make logical sense. Infinite entails no part or limitations, while a particle is limited.

Particles could only exist within the creations. Without time and space there are no particles.

We can agree that before time and space there was nothing. No thing. Just that one being that is the intelligent source of it all.

2)

Brother, according to today's laws God must exist. And if we get new laws, then we can prove God's existence through them as well :) insha Allah.

And there is no evidence of things going from chaos to organised except in life. Take all elements as an example. Just Google the word 'half life'. That is enough to prove it. Also through our own common sense we know that. Have you ever observed the opposite?

3) why doesn't God have a creator? Well whoever is the first creator is the real God, while the others would be simple creatures. As a source we can not have a parallel, because every parallel would have a single source as well. Get what I'm saying? It's really simple.

4)

First has a before? Not technically. I'm essence first means first. Before 1 you can only have zero, and as something from nothing does not make sense, one is first.

Thanks

@Quisant

Your thinking just like your power of observation is limited. Our tools can only see a small spectrum of things. Fact is that we are not all seeing. Therefore we can safely say that there are beings we do not see or observe. Yet we can come to certain conclusions about them anyway.

By the way .. your comment "yours are not proofs but desires to believe", can be turned around and given to you. Not believing is also a belief. Perhaps you believe that God doesn't exist. You've got your religion too btw.

The rest of that paragraph is nicely put, but in meaning condescending. You can't prove to me you exist if I ask you. And just because you believe in your proofs doesn't make them right for me Better stay on line of evidence yourself and avoid making judgments like you are looking down at me. Those are counter productive and will not help you further.

Let's stick to the actual discussion without general verdicts.

-----

-----

For the moment I will only focus on one thing .. first mover . Origins of energy ..

You refer to this first mover as first cause. That is our God. Pushing is the same as energy. It takes energy to push.

So i am not going into my God, your God, Plato's God - I am talking about our God.

So you call him first cause .. I call him Allah

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Akin to science, religion seeks to elucidate the causes of the universe and its minuscule to grand interworking demonstrated through natural laws and occurrences. Yet--science still seeks to explain occurrences that will continue to persist despite the names and theories attributed to such. Interestingly, the idea of the "God particle" or Higgs Boson has grasped the fanatic interest of physicists from the 80s to present day. Two theories of the nature of the universe spout from the concept of the "God particle," which essentially sustains the uniformity and existence of the tiniest components of the three basic parts of the atom. Without the existence of this particle, atoms would have no way of maintaining their form, and essentially, the universe would cease to exist and collapse on a grand scale--nothing would exist. These two ideologies comprise the concept of Beautiful Symmetry, that the universe exists in a highly structuralized manner, with everything in perfect balance, and formulas and complex theories explaining the interworking of the universe, the other, the Multi-verse, the idea that the world is but chaos, and that our mere galaxy was an "accident" created randomly and happens to be perfect for the condition of human life; this idea proposes that the rest of the millions of universes are toxic and extremely dangerous and perilous. Interestingly, if the Multi-verse was found to be the nature of the universe, then modern physics would cease to exist as the rest of information to be found would remain outside our universe, and essentially, the universe would be inexplicable.  All of this depends upon the mass of the Higgs Boson, with a mass of 14 representing a Beautiful Symmetry, and 45, a Multi-verse.  Using the Hadron Collider, which shoots two beams at the speed near that of the speed of light, the machine (5 stories tall) seeks to mimic the result of the Big Bang, essentially exploding atoms into its infinitesimal particles, allowing scientists to find the Higgs Boson along with other particles which could explain whether or not dark matter comprises the form of atoms. Surprisingly, the Higgs Boson was found to be a mass of 24.5, neither disproving either theory.  From this, scientists found that the Higgs Boson is essentially unstable, that is, it both creates and destroys​. It created atoms, and it can just as easily destroy them, and therefore, destroy the universe.  Although the Hadron Collider is undergoing reconstruction, they will eventually redo this experiment to see if 24.5 is the true mass. 

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We can agree that before time and space there was nothing. No thing. Just that one being that is the intelligent source of it all.

Wa alaykum salam,

Firstly, before I address your statements and responses, I want to make clear that I am not a skeptic in God, alhamdulillah. I am questioning your proofs not to weaken your faith, but with the intention, inshallah, of perhaps making you realize something you might not have thought about. This is because I believe I might have something to to share which will be of benefit to you (if God wills).

As for your point 1) in what I quoted from you above:

What do you mean by "before time and space?" Can time possibly have a "before" in time? How can you use time to define the limits of time? So, what do you mean by "before"? This is why it doesn't make sense for the Big Bang to have an absolute beginning, because time cannot begin in time!

Secondly, if you assume time had a beginning, then why do you assume there was God? Maybe there are dimensions which are other than time and space... Why do you assume it is God just because the physical universe had a beginning? What about angels? You know, they are not bound by physical laws right? They most certainly DID NOT come into being at the beginning of the "Physical Universe" because angels are NOT physical!

2)

Brother, according to today's laws God must exist. And if we get new laws, then we can prove God's existence through them as well :) insha Allah. And there is no evidence of things going from chaos to organised except in life. Take all elements as an example. Just Google the word 'half life'. That is enough to prove it. Also through our own common sense we know that. Have you ever observed the opposite?

Since the so called "beginning" of the Universe, things are said to have been evolving! Nuclear evolution, astro and stellar evolution, and bio evolution (to name just a few). That seems to cover the entire "history" of our universe. So you don't need God to explain the increasing complexity of things (not only life). One word, cosmic evolution!

3) why doesn't God have a creator? Well whoever is the first creator is the real God, while the others would be simple creatures. As a source we can not have a parallel, because every parallel would have a single source as well. Get what I'm saying? It's really simple.

But why is this so called creator "Omniscient", "Wise", and "Loving"? Just because you are pointing to a first "cause" doesn't mean this first cause is God!

4)

First has a before? Not technically. I'm essence first means first. Before 1 you can only have zero, and as something from nothing does not make sense, one is first.

You misunderstood me! When I said "He has a before" I didn't mean that things come before Him. Let me clarify. I mean that that He IS BEFORE everything that follows after Him. Which makes Him bound by time.
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@Quisant

The rest of that paragraph is nicely put, but in meaning condescending. You can't prove to me you exist if I ask you. And just because you believe in your proofs doesn't make them right for me Better stay on line of evidence yourself and avoid making judgments like you are looking down at me. Those are counter productive and will not help you further.

 

 

 

During my stay here at ShiaChat, a number of people have criticised me for sounding condescending, arrogant, unfriendly.
I have tried hard to change but obviously not very successfully.
 
In real life I am quite a nice person, (even my cat will confirm that) and after more than two years in England finally my grammar and vocabulary are improved.
Unfortunately my discursive skills are still terrible and I have to admit that I don't know how to be nice/friendly when writing in English.
 
Perhaps I concentrate too much on the words rather than the person behind the words.Hopefully it will get better with the passing of time. 
 
I really don't mean to sound aggressive and I am sorry  if I have upset you.
 
All the best.
*
Edited by Quisant
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During my stay here at ShiaChat, a number of people have criticised me for sounding condescending, arrogant, unfriendly.

I have tried hard to change but obviously not very successfully.

In real life I am quite a nice person, (even my cat will confirm that) and after more than two years in England finally my grammar and vocabulary are improved.

Unfortunately my discursive skills are still terrible and I have to admit that I don't know how to be nice/friendly when writing in English.

Perhaps I concentrate too much on the words rather than the person behind the words.Hopefully it will get better with the passing of time.

I really don't mean to sound aggressive and I am sorry if I have upset you.

All the best.

*

If that is selfless ^, then that counts as a believer, in my books. God is the best of judges.

I am sure you are a nice person. :)

Edited by eThErEaL
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walaikum salaam warahmat Allah wabarakatu

 

thank you dear ethereal

 

i appreciate any challenge from anybody, and believe this is the best way to grow. so i would like to thank you for your help by posing difficult questions to my theories, in an attempt to come up with a conclusion that fits best for all of mankind. searching for that irrefutable approach to prove gods existence once and for all.

 

it is even nice having it come from a fellow shia, who can look at his own religion from an atheists perspective, which is a rare gift. what was the saying? from our dear friend aristotle: "it is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it". how else can we convince people to believe in god?

 

 

anyway,

 

1) before time and space: that is the point! we can never know or understand the reality beyond time and space. actually i take that back - there is one way of feeling it because in some way we are connected to it and come from there. we can feel it, but we can never understand or put it down in words. but for us humans we understand that time moves forwards, and so if we move backwards there had to be one point when it began. and all we can know is that there was a first. before that we don't know.

 

 

Secondly, if you assume time had a beginning, then why do you assume there was God? Maybe there are dimensions which are other than time and space... Why do you assume it is God just because the physical universe had a beginning? What about angels? You know, they are not bound by physical laws right?

 

well dear brother, the beginning had an initiator who is intelligent. how do i know that initiator is intelligent? because it takes intelligence to create intelligence. whatever name you want to give this very first being, it's ok. but this very first being is responsible for all that came after that, including angels, and all. and i do know that angels are governed by laws just like us. when looking at something on purely scientific level, everything is energy, everything is light. because matter is actually simply energy as well. so the word physical is simply what appears as tangible to our limited senses. get what i mean? let me give you an example: the laws of electricity work identically to the laws of water. when we studied electric circuits in physics class you have the same exact rules like physical water flow. then also, water can turn into vapor, which might not look "physical" to us, but it is still equally tangible in essence.

 

 

Since the so called "beginning" of the Universe, things are said to have been evolving! Nuclear evolution, astro and stellar evolution, and bio evolution (to name just a few). That seems to cover the entire "history" of our universe. So you don't need God to explain the increasing complexity of things (not only life). One word, cosmic evolution!

 

if you look at all evolution outside of life, it goes in one direction. it goes from higher to less complex design. however, life is different. life goes against all this. it takes scattered minerals and gathers them together in complex systems and molecule structures. life goes against all rules of physics, and can never be explained through rationale. life in itself isn't a direct proof, but it is rather an inspirational proof - showing us a miracle happening, that is linked to something we can't see. namely a spirit. as soon as spirit leaves a body, or a soul, or personality, then the order of nature takes place again. one of the names of god is the living. it is a way of seeing manifestations of god, which is proof that there must be a higher being doing this. i hope i explained myself correctly.

 

 

But why is this so called creator "Omniscient", "Wise", and "Loving"? Just because you are pointing to a first "cause" doesn't mean this first cause is God!

 

now that is a great question, which is beyond the scope of this topic. actually, this topic is just to cover the idea and proof that God exists. now, you can call this God anything you want, as long as it makes sense. first cause, first pusher, first being, first mover, first entity, source, etc etc etc. the point is that if we agree that there was an initiation intelligent force beyond our limited intelligence and senses, then that is understanding god from a rational point of view.

 

this is proving that there is a being who is beyond all creations, and all beings. a creator quite literally, who put this all in place. i know this sounds like boring religious talk again, but it's actually quite scientific, and to me undeniable proof. there had to be a beginning, and above all a beginner.

 

a beginner who began time

a beginner who began space

a beginner who pushed the first push

a beginner who began everything

a beginner who caused everything to be

...

the first cause

 

 

I mean that that He IS BEFORE everything that follows after Him. Which makes Him bound by time.

 

well fact is that this beginner of time and space is beyond measurement. we can't measure some"thing" that is beyond time and space, because measurement is limited to time and space. we can't measure anything outside of our limitations.

 

measuring anything would take two points at least. two reference points. but dealing with a being who is beyond and unbound by it all, is beyond our comprehension.

 

can you imagine what infinity is? as a kid i used to always think that way. what comes after the boundaries of earth and the solar system and the stars ?? what comes after that .. and then after that? infinity is not possibly for us to understand or measure. same goes for zero. non existence can not be grasped by us or understood. it can be felt in momentary states of ecstatic spiritual flight, but never pinned down with rationale.

 

a being who is beyond and before .. or let's say "before" time and space, is never bound by it. because that being existed before the first second was counted. before anything that can be measured (like the moon or sun) is in existence. before anything rotated or took place. so logically the initiator of the "big bang" is not bound by what came after it.

 

also, let me repeat that no particle regardless of how small, could exist before existence of particles. and here comes again the fact that atoms (or sub atomic particles somebody mentioned here), are merely fields of energy. what do we know about them? only what we can measure :)


 

During my stay here at ShiaChat, a number of people have criticised me for sounding condescending, arrogant, unfriendly.
I have tried hard to change but obviously not very successfully.
 
In real life I am quite a nice person, (even my cat will confirm that) and after more than two years in England finally my grammar and vocabulary are improved.
Unfortunately my discursive skills are still terrible and I have to admit that I don't know how to be nice/friendly when writing in English.
 
Perhaps I concentrate too much on the words rather than the person behind the words.Hopefully it will get better with the passing of time. 
 
I really don't mean to sound aggressive and I am sorry  if I have upset you.
 
All the best.
*

 

 

salam alaikum warahmat Allah wabarakatu

 

i second what brother ethereal said to you dear brother quisant. my father taught me a very important lesson when i was young: "you can get away with anything as long as you are polite" .. well he said it in swedish and the word for polite is 'artig'. and you sure got away with the little minor mistake by being nice to me in that next post! Allah is greater!  so i want to thank you and hope to learn more about you and your ways, including your nice english grammar skills :D

 

im sure you're a great person and peace be on you and your family

 

may the first cause keep you for us,

 

all the best to you too

Edited by peace seeker II
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1) before time and space: that is the point! we can never know or understand the reality beyond time and space. actually i take that back - there is one way of feeling it because in some way we are connected to it and come from there. we can feel it, but we can never understand or put it down in words. but for us humans we understand that time moves forwards, and so if we move backwards there had to be one point when it began. and all we can know is that there was a first. before that we don't know.

You are thinking of time as in a linear sort of way (like a time line). We do not move in time or along time. It isn't as if time is a kind of "container" that we travel through! It isn't like a line that we walk along it. When one thinks of time in this way, he separates time from things (including the human himself). We cannot say time is like a conveyor belt which passes underneath us. If so then the things upon which, time (as a conveyor belt moves underneath), are not intrinsically bound by time. :)

 

well dear brother, the beginning had an initiator who is intelligent. how do i know that initiator is intelligent? because it takes intelligence to create intelligence. whatever name you want to give this very first being, it's ok. but this very first being is responsible for all that came after that, including angels, and all. and i do know that angels are governed by laws just like us. when looking at something on purely scientific level, everything is energy, everything is light. because matter is actually simply energy as well. so the word physical is simply what appears as tangible to our limited senses. get what i mean? let me give you an example: the laws of electricity work identically to the laws of water. when we studied electric circuits in physics class you have the same exact rules like physical water flow. then also, water can turn into vapor, which might not look "physical" to us, but it is still equally tangible in essence.

. So you are a materialist. You believe intelligence and awareness is reducible to "energy". You realize energy is composite and purely quantitative in itself right? So is God Himself also a kind of energy (since also He intelligence, albeit a super one)

if you look at all evolution outside of life, it goes in one direction. it goes from higher to less complex design. however, life is different. life goes against all this. it takes scattered minerals and gathers them together in complex systems and molecule structures. life goes against all rules of physics, and can never be explained through rationale. life in itself isn't a direct proof, but it is rather an inspirational proof - showing us a miracle happening, that is linked to something we can't see. namely a spirit. as soon as spirit leaves a body, or a soul, or personality, then the order of nature takes place again. one of the names of god is the living. it is a way of seeing manifestations of god, which is proof that there must be a higher being doing this. i hope i explained myself correctly.

But the spirit is energy as you said. So it is theoretically possible to find out what "laws" are responsible for the evolution of life. It is all a matter of time.

 

 

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You are thinking of time as in a linear sort of way (like a time line). We do not move in time or along time. It isn't as if time is a kind of "container" that we travel through! It isn't like a line that we walk along it. When one thinks of time in this way, he separates time from things (including the human himself). We cannot say time is like a conveyor belt which passes underneath us. If so then the things upon which, time (as a conveyor belt moves underneath), are not intrinsically bound by time. :)

 

. So you are a materialist. You believe intelligence and awareness is reducible to "energy". You realize energy is composite and purely quantitative in itself right? So is God Himself also a kind of energy (since also He intelligence, albeit a super one)

But the spirit is energy as you said. So it is theoretically possible to find out what "laws" are responsible for the evolution of life. It is all a matter of time.

 

 

 

time:

 

time is a reality, and it does move forward. i think nobody can deny that time exists and that it can't be reversed. logically, when talking about time there must have been a beginning. thats why current science agrees that this is the case.

 

state of awareness and intelligence:

 

everything that exists around us is made of energy. do we know what this energy is? no. will we every find out? no.

 

a materialist is a person who puts importance in things that are seen and felt by our limited senses. my personal belief, as well as scientific belief is that everything - whether visible or not - is energy. even things that are not matter. things like this include visible light, x-ray, ultra

 

God being energy?

 

Well according to science light is a form of energy, just like matter and sound. from an islamic perspective we can safely say that "the light" is god. will we every understand what god truly is? no. but interesting is to note that if god is energy, that means god is everything and everywhere, and nowhere at the same time. nowhere because this being transcends time and space, which means the "where" falls out.

 

spirit being energy?

 

well, it seems that on a base level, everything is the same. made out of energy, which nobody knows what it is. everything is made out of the same element as light. that's according to science today.

 

personally i don't think we will ever find out the laws of energy, or laws of spirit, because we can not understand what it is to start with. in science today the wave that represents energy is a fluctuation of existence and non existence over time (typical energy curve along x axis and y axis ). as much as we can't understand what non existence is, we can't understand existence either. plus, we can't understand existence of what ..

 

so this is where we surrender. and go back to basics and say "ok whatever it is, there was a first pusher, a first creator of this energy - because something must come from someone" .. some"One" because before time and space duality there was no space for more than one. there had to be one source - logically.

 

it is impossible to claim that everything came along from nothing and spontaneously got ordered into this perfect beauty and complex design. it's not logical in any way. can a house be built without a builder? can a universe be built without a creator? .. or a universe builder? no. so this to me is the ultimate proof that is undeniable. in sha Allah

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personally i don't think we will ever find out the laws of energy, or laws of spirit, because we can not understand what it is to start with.

Salam,

 

Interesting Posts. Everything is possible to find out thru Islam, laws of energy, laws of spirits, are just a few.

 

There are many beings who do not even need spirit to be alive, it is not part of their functioning system.

 

Infact law of energies from scientific point of view is very limited, in comparison to the islamic perspective.

 

But unfortunately most muslims and non muslims hate Islam so much, they have literally blocked themselves to receive knowledge.

 

Like the knowledge abu- Saeed abal Kheyr had, and that of Avicenna, One witnessed the behind the scenes as it was one understood the laws behind it.

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time: time is a reality, and it does move forward. i think nobody can deny that time exists and that it can't be reversed. logically, when talking about time there must have been a beginning. thats why current science agrees that this is the case.

state of awareness and intelligence:

everything that exists around us is made of energy. do we know what this energy is? no. will we every find out? no.

a materialist is a person who puts importance in things that are seen and felt by our limited senses. my personal belief, as well as scientific belief is that everything - whether visible or not - is energy. even things that are not matter. things like this include visible light, x-ray, ultra

God being energy?

Well according to science light is a form of energy, just like matter and sound. from an islamic perspective we can safely say that "the light" is god. will we every understand what god truly is? no. but interesting is to note that if god is energy, that means god is everything and everywhere, and nowhere at the same time. nowhere because this being transcends time and space, which means the "where" falls out.

spirit being energy?

well, it seems that on a base level, everything is the same. made out of energy, which nobody knows what it is. everything is made out of the same element as light. that's according to science today.

personally i don't think we will ever find out the laws of energy, or laws of spirit, because we can not understand what it is to start with. in science today the wave that represents energy is a fluctuation of existence and non existence over time (typical energy curve along x axis and y axis ). as much as we can't understand what non existence is, we can't understand existence either. plus, we can't understand existence of what ..

so this is where we surrender. and go back to basics and say "ok whatever it is, there was a first pusher, a first creator of this energy - because something must come from someone" .. some"One" because before time and space duality there was no space for more than one. there had to be one source - logically.

it is impossible to claim that everything came along from nothing and spontaneously got ordered into this perfect beauty and complex design. it's not logical in any way. can a house be built without a builder? can a universe be built without a creator? .. or a universe builder? no. so this to me is the ultimate proof that is undeniable. in sha Allah

Many people deny that time moves forward, or that it moves at all! And why does it matter what current science says? Yesterday the universe had no beginning. Today the universe has a beginning. Tomorrow it may not have a beginning. Current science is only current science, not eternal science. So who cares what current science says! I have already given you a proof for why time cannot logically have a beginning. And you keep saying, "no one will say time does not move forward". The fact is that there are many people who believe time is not some sort of container which passes by entities or along which entities are pass by.

I will say this: We ARE time! Time IS us. Each THING is a time. The constant renewal of God's creation from moment to moment is what I refer to as time. Each moment is a new moment. And each moment is a new creation. So if you like, the world comes into existence, and no sooner does it come, it is replaced by a similar world. This process as a whole has no beginning and no end. Why? Because God is Infinite and He will never stop being a creator (He can't run out of things to create as His knowledge of creation must also be infinite). This is why religious traditions talk about a cyclical time (including in Islam (especially Shiasm), by the way).

And no, we are not made of energy because it doesn't exist! Why? Because we don't even know "what" it is! Things are made up of "intelligible forms", not energy!. In other words, things are dependent upon an intelligence which is neither subjective nor objective. And this intelligence is not at all reducible to energy! Energy, in the popular understanding, is not eternal! But Intelligible forms are eternal! Again, eternity is not to endure in time in an everlasting way without any beginning and without any end. Eternity means to have no before or after at all! Eternity is to be ever presently NOW.

The god that most people believe in these days is not the God found in revelation. The god that most people believe in is nonexistence, or dead matter and energy.

Ethereal

Edited by eThErEaL
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Can you give me again the proof that time has no beginning ? I must have missed that.

And you are talking about energy as if anybody claims to know anything about it.

What if energy is intelligible Form? Do you claim to know what intelligible Form is?

And you say Islam talks about time being cyclical ? Well nobody denied that. That's why we measure it with cycles of moon and sun among others. But without time and space there is no cycle.

Brother ethereal you seem to talk in an emotionally charged way without proving anything. Saying "according to popular understanding" does not fit into the title of this thread.

Either bring commonly known scientific proofs that are based on research, or prove your own stuff.

You say that "eternity is to be ever present now." Are you denying the past - present - future? Because if you are, then there is no point in discussing.

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