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In the Name of God بسم الله

Did Muhammad Follow The Faith Of Abraham?

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Did Muhammad follow the Faith of Abraham?

 

Hi Christianlady

 

I thought in all fairness I should start a new topic, "Did Muhammad follow the Faith of Abraham?" --- Then answer your following questions.

 

Quote from other topic, Post 25:

Can you answer yes and explain why you answer yes to the following questions? Thanks. 

1. Did Muhammad accept Jesus Christ's teaching that God is our Father in Heaven? Yes or no?

 2. Did Muhammad accept Jesus Christ as God's son, as Jesus himself proclaimed? Yes or no?

 3. Did Muhammd accept that Jesus Christ died on the cross and God rose him from the dead, thus fulfilling Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22? Yes or no?

 4. Did Muhammad believe that Jesus Christ "was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." ? Yes or no.

http://www.jewishvir...e/Isaiah53.html

 5. Did Muhammad obey Jesus Christ's commands to love enemies? Yes or no.

 

Response: --- These are interesting questions, and the answers may surprise you. --- The problem with answering (which I will do), with the understand from the studies I have done, will perhaps not satisfy you, or the Muslims, who don’t believe in ‘original sin,’ therefore, they don’t see our need for a Savior or Messiah.

 

--- Does the Quran teach original sin? --- Yes it does, in Surah 7:

20 Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live for ever."

21 And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.

22 So by deceit he brought about their ‘fall’: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"

23 They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost."

 

--- Does that not explain their disobedience to God and their fall from grace? --- They admitted their sin and guilt before God and asked for forgiveness. The next verse says:

24 (God) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood, - for a time."

27 O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment (of righteousness), to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them.

 

Because these revelations were given through Muhammad, natuurally he believed them all. --- But the Muslims who do not believe in the fall of Adam and Eve, do not believe the Quran, nor do they follow their messenger, Muhammad.

Muhammad was called as a messenger to the Arab people, to destroy idolatry from among them and return them to worshiping One God, --- which he did. --- He was not called to start a new religion, was he? --- And there are no new laws in the Quran, except instructions for multiple wives and family inheritance, plus some dietary laws, --- so the concept that the Quran was given to correct the former Scriptures, is not true.

 

--- There is no real criticism of Christianity in the Quran. There are two criticisms of Catholicism, and much criticism of the Jews, “The people pf the Scriptures,” --- but honor is given to Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. --- So we will look for the 'Gospel in the Quran' in answering your questions.

 

Placid

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--- And to set another record straight, I read the three verses you used on the Debate topic, about the “Religion of Truth,” which are below, so I gave a little background:

--- Muhammad and his followers had to leave Mecca and move to Madinah some 200 miles north, because they plotted to kill Muhammad in Mecca. --- He had a vision that one day he would return to Mecca and have victory over the idolaters. --- At that time there were some 360 idols in the Kabah, the House of Prayer. --- They represented many pagam religions and some idols were ‘sons and daughters of gods.’ --- They were steeped in idolatry, and Muhammad’s Mission was to remove or destroy idolatry in Mecca.

--- This first verse was given is year 6 of the Hijrah, or six years after they had gone to Madinah, and they wanted to return as pilgrims to Mecca for their Pilgrimage, but on the way they discovered that the army was waiting for them to do battle. --- They skirted around and got to the Valley of Mecca, where they made contact with some authorities to gain permission, --- while negotiations were going on they knew they were in danger of being attacked and killed so Mr Pickthall’s translation said that ‘Muhammad sat under a tree ant took allegience from each one, that they would fight to the death if need be, even tho they came in peace and had no weapons.’ --- But God protected them in Surah 48:

18 GOD is pleased with the believers who pledged allegiance to you (Muhammad) under the tree. He knew what was in their hearts and, consequently, He blessed them with contentment, and rewarded them with an immediate victory.

(Then your verse) 28:

He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the 'religion of truth,' that He may cause it to prevail over all religion. And Allah sufficeth as a witness. - 48:28 (Picktall)

--- And the following verse says:

29 Muhammad is the apostle of God; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from God and (His) Good Pleasure. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. God has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

--- You see, it says “He it is Who hath sent His messenger (Muhammad) with the guidance and the religion of truth, then it identifies this ‘religion of truth, with the Torah and the Gospel which is the same ‘religion of truth’ in the Scriptures.

Next verse is the same setting, as they wait to see how the idolaters respond in 61:

4: Lo! God loveth them who battle for His cause in ranks, as if they were a solid structure.

5 And (remember) when Moses said unto his people: O my people! Why persecute ye me, when ye well know that I am God's messenger unto you?

6 And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of God unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah,

(Your verse) 9: --- See again how it identifies the ‘religion of truth’ with the Torah and the Gospel?)

He it is who hath sent His messenger (Muhammad) with the guidance and the 'religion of truth,' that He may make it conqueror of all religion however much idolaters may be averse. - 61:9

14 O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of God: As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples, "We are God's helpers!" then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they (the disciples) became the ones that prevailed. --- (Surah 3:52)

This last verse is from Surah 9 which was the Surah after they had entered peacefully into Mecca and Muhammad destroyed the idols from the House of Prayer, and gave the idolaters the alternatives. --- Within the next year, they must leave the country, be converted, or run the risk of being killed as enemies of God, which they were.

--- Surah 9:

28 O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year.

--- Notice, the ‘idolaters’ only are unclean, --- then it repeats the verse 9:33

He it is who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the 'Religion of Truth,' that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse. - Qur'an 9:33 (Picktall)

So it is the religion of truth from the Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran that Muhammad said would prevail over all the religions of the idolaters.

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Greetings Placid,

 

Quran

 

Then We inspired you: “Follow the religion of Abraham, the Monotheist. He was not an idol-worshiper.” (16: 123)

 

Quran

 

Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a Monotheist, a Muslim.

And he was not of the Polytheists. (3: 67)

 

The people most deserving of Abraham are those who followed him,

and this prophet, and those who believe. God is the Guardian of the believers.(3: 68)

 

Quran

 

And they say, “Be Jews or Christians, and you will be guided.”

Say, “Rather, the religion of Abraham, the Monotheist; he was not an idolater.” (2: 135)

 

Quran

 

Say, “My Lord has guided me to a straight path, an upright religion,

the creed of Abraham the Monotheist, who was not a polytheist.” (6: 161)

 

Quran

 

And who is better in religion than he who submits himself wholly to God, and is a doer of good,

and follows the faith of Abraham the Monotheist? God has chosen Abraham for a friend. (4: 125)

 

Quran

 

He prescribed for you the same religion He enjoined upon Noah,

and what We inspired to you, and what We enjoined upon Abraham, and Moses, and Jesus:

“You shall uphold the religion, and be not divided therein.” (42: 13)

 

 

O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion,

and do not say about God except the truth.

The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, is the Messenger of God,

and His Word that He conveyed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him.

So believe in God and His messengers, and do not say, “Three.”

Refrain—it is better for you. God is only one God. Glory be to Him—that He should have a son.

To Him belongs everything in the heavens and the earth, and God is a sufficient Protector. (4: 171)

 

 

And God will say, “O Jesus son of Mary, did you say to the people,

`Take me and my mother as gods rather than God?'

He will say, “Glory be to You! It is not for me to say what I have no right to.

Had I said it, You would have known it. You know what is in my soul, and I do not know what is in your soul.

You are the Knower of the hidden. (5: 116)

Edited by tendersoul
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Hi Christianlady,

I want to zero in on one of the verses you used because the three of them are quite misleading. The Muslims have always believed these verses refer to some new ‘religion of truth’ that Muhammad brought in, --- but by logic and reason there can’t be a ‘new religion of truth.’

--- It says in Surah 3:
3 He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.
--- Does that not say it plainly, that God revealed to Muhammad the Scripture with the same truth that was revealed in the Torah and the Gospel.

And in this verse Surah 48:
29 that you quoted, it says that ‘their prostration in prayer, that leaves marks on their forehead, was after the pattern of the way they prayed in the OT, --- and it gives a comparison to new life and new growth, in relation to the Gospel, as though it speaks of evangelism where the witnesses ‘sow the word,’ and the seed sprouts and new growth springs up and infuriates the unbelievers.

Notice what it says:
48:29 Pickthall: Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves. Thou (O Muhammad) seest them bowing and falling prostrate (in worship), seeking bounty from Allah and (His) acceptance. The mark of them is on their foreheads from the traces of prostration. Such is their likeness in the Torah and their likeness in the Gospel - like as sown corn that sendeth forth its shoot and strengtheneth it and riseth firm upon its stalk, delighting the sowers - that He may enrage the disbelievers with (the sight of) them. Allah hath promised, unto such of them as believe and do good works, forgiveness and immense reward.

Khalifa: Muhammad - the messenger of GOD - and those with him are harsh and stern against the disbelievers, but kind and compassionate amongst themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating, as they seek GOD's blessings and approval. Their marks are on their faces, because of prostrating. This is the same example as in the Torah. Their example in the Gospel is like plants that grow taller and stronger, and please the farmers. He thus enrages the disbelievers. GOD promises those among them who believe, and lead a righteous life, forgiveness and a great recompense.

So, you see, it is hard for you to get away from the fact that Muhammad was talking about the same ‘Religion of Truth’ that is in the Torah and Gospel, --- is it not?

And it is hard for the Muslims to get away from the fact that Muhammad was talking about the same ‘Religion of Truth’ that is in the Torah and Gospel, --- is it not?
 

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--- There is no real criticism of Christianity in the Quran. There are two criticisms of Catholicism, and much criticism of the Jews.

Placid

While I am enjoying this debate, I would like to point out that the Quran almost certainly didn't criticize " Catholicism". There was no " Catholicism" to criticize at the time. The Church was still unified ,the major schisms still in the future. Any early Muslims would have likely run into the types of Christians who would later be classified as "Eastern Orthodox".... or even Nestorian or some other group, possibly later or earlier labeled heretical, that was still wandering around out there. So it might be more accurate to say it criticized some 7th century local Christian practices?

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While I am enjoying this debate, I would like to point out that the Quran almost certainly didn't criticize " Catholicism". There was no " Catholicism" to criticize at the time. The Church was still unified ,the major schisms still in the future. Any early Muslims would have likely run into the types of Christians who would later be classified as "Eastern Orthodox".... or even Nestorian or some other group, possibly later or earlier labeled heretical, that was still wandering around out there. So it might be more accurate to say it criticized some 7th century local Christian practices?

That's right!

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Hi LeftCoastMom,

Quote from Post

While I am enjoying this debate, I would like to point out that the Quran almost certainly didn't criticize " Catholicism". There was no " Catholicism" to criticize at the time. The Church was still unified.

Response: --- With all due apologies for introducing this into our discussion, it is important to deal with, because the Quran does ‘correct’ this one issue.

From the sending out of the Apostles to spread the Gospel among the Jews first, in all the countries mentioned in Acts 2:5-12, --- the Christians established local Churches in every town and city, and they were joined together by visiting back and forth and exchanging letters, like the letters of Paul where the same teaching was passed from one to another.

--- The same Scriptures were used that we have with us in the NT today. --- The Church Fathers followed the Apostles, and then the ministers or bishops of the various Churches, with some notable leaders among them.

The Roman Government persecuted the local Churches and about 300 AD some compromising ministers were inflluenced by the Roman Government to join with them in a joint religion in exchange for being persecuted.

The Roman influence changed the Church to have a central location, a ‘head office,’ like Judaism had in Jerusalem, and they even took the name Christian out of it and called it the ‘Roman Catholic Church’ --- Catholic meaning ‘universal.’ --- So, the Roman Church had control of the ministers under it. --- These compromising ministers would become the counsel members or leaders. --- So they devised new doctrine and teaching methods.

In 325 AD they had a meeting where they laid out these doctrines to be taught by this ‘Universal’ Church, --- and then ‘imposed’ them on the local Churches, --- which started the persecution all over again, but this time, not from the Roman Government directly, but through their organized Church.

The one doctrine that has caused the greatest division between Muslims and Christians is the Doctrine of Trinity. --- As well, it is divisive in Evangelical Churches.

The so-called Trinity cannot be explained, nor is it Scriptural, and the verse in the Quran that ‘corrects’ it, has already been given by Tendersoul.

This doctrine was decided in 325 AD and the revelation in the Quran was given about 626 AD, so about 300 years later, in Surah 4:

171 Pickthall: “O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not “Three” – Cease! (it is) better for you! – Allah is only One God.”

171 Yusuf Ali: “O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him.”

This says that the ‘trinity’ is an exaggeration of the Scripture, because Jesus was the Messenger, of God, --- and His Word (which was conveyed into Mary), --- and the Holy Spirit from Him (God) --- (You see, Jesus was not one of the three, was He? --- But He was the Messenger of --- God the Father, --- the Word, that was implanted in Mary, --- and the Holy Spirit. And Jesus revealed these three from heaven all through the Gospel.)

So there are the Three mentioned from heaven in 1 John 5:

7 “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.”

--- These are ‘One in harmony,’ but not in a sense of being co-equal. --- God is God and there is no other. The Word (Logos) and the Holy Spirit are as Servants to God.

--- It says, “Believe in God and His apostles (messengers, Jesus and Muhammad). Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him.”

Now, you will want to know where it says in the Scripture that Jesus was a Servant of God, because of the long standing belief that Jesus was part of the ‘trinity,’ --- and even spoken of as being god. --- Jesus was human, but the Word that indwelt Him was from God, and the Holy Spirit was from God.

So we find this spoken by Peter in Acts 3:

13 “The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.

14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,

15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.

25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’

26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

--- (There are two more references in John 4 where Jesus is called God’s Servant, and after the resurrection, in most places, but not all, the name is written, Christ Jesus, rather than Jesus Christ, --- and many references are to Christ, as in, ‘Christ is the head of the Church.

Jesus was God’s Son in that God brought Him into being, as it says in Surah 3:

45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

So the Word came from heaven to indwell Jesus, --- but He was born in a flesh and blood body with the DNA of Mary, so he was ‘born on earth, lived on earth, and died on earth. --- He went through death, was raised again to life in a new body, and ascended to heaven. --- This was to show us that we who believe in God and accept Jesus as our Savior will be resurrected spiritually and ascend to heaven in the same way, --- which is what God has promised.

Placid

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Thank you....

Are you discussing the First Council of Nicea in 325?

That was the first of the Ecumenical Councils recognized by the Catholic Church. It was not held in Rome, but ,obviously, Nicea... in what is now Turkey. In fact, all of the early church councils were held in " The East".The Roman Emperor Constantine just wanted the Church to formally enunciate its doctrine, which was based on Church tradition referenced in older writings. The ' Trinity" was not invented at Nicea.

As well, the Bishop of Rome was, at that time, considered only one of many major bishops and there is every evidence that the bishops of Alexandria and Antioch were given equal footing. In fact, Eastern Christian representation ( the folks that would later bump into the first Muslims ) easily outnumbered the Western ones ,so if they had had any problems with the idea of the Trinity, they could have easily shot the concept down. In fact, one of the reasons for the council being called was that bishop Alexander of Alexandria in Egypt was having problems with one of his underlings, a certain Arius who denied the Trinity. One of the results of the Council was the start of the Nicene Creed, which East and West accepted and which was finished a bit later in Chalcedon. Bishop Alexander was a sure-fire Trinitarian. Darn Egyptians. Blame them. XD

The term " Roman Catholic Church" is not actually the proper name of our Church. It is simply the " Catholic Church" and consists of 20-odd " rites", only one of which is the Latin, or " Roman".. As you pointed out the term means " universal", but the Eastern ( now called Orthodox) Churches have never accepted the primacy of Rome. They have and have always had their own patriarchs. That's what caused a "Great Schism" in 1054 ...the Patriarch ( Pope) of the Roman capital of Byzantium refused to recognize the authority of the Patriarch (Pope) in Rome and they ended up excommunicating each other...an embarrassment that wasn't officially healed until I was a little girl....but the Schism remains.This is what led to the term " Roman" or " Latin" Catholic to distinguish the parts of the schism ...and it was well after the Quran was given.

Even today...the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church ( those congregations originally from Churches who are from the eastern tradition but have accepted the Roman pontiff and are part of those 20- odd rites I talked about)...certainly never call themselves " Roman Catholic". They are Byzantine, Ethiopian, Coptic,etc.

That's why I still hold there was no " correction" of "Catholicism" as you seem understand it. It did not exist at the time. The only Christians the early Muslims would have seen, unless they schlepped to Europe, were eastern ones of the universal, though not centralized, Church...and most of those were trinitarians , had helped develop and formalize the concept ,and still would have if Rome ,fallen to the Germanic tribes , had become totally Asatru pagan.

Just my thoughts.

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From my understanding Prophet Muhammed (SAW), came to earth as the final messenger of Allah, he did so that he could guide humanity back to the right path, Jews believe in Moses, so did the Muslims, the Christians believed Jesus was here to guide humanity back to the right path, and we believe that the Prophet Muhammed followed them, HOWEVER he was the final messenger to earth to send us back onto the right path. Just a fact that the Prophet Muhammed didn't deny/reject Abrahimovic Religions, as we believe in Prophet Essa (Jesus) and Prophet Musa (Moses) and to reject them is essentially making us not Muslim, though my knowledge is limited, this is what I understand about our relationship with Abrahamic Religions.

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Hi DnA,

Quote from Post 10:
From my understanding Prophet Muhammed (SAW), came to earth as the final messenger of Allah, he did so that he could guide humanity back to the right path, Jews believe in Moses, so did the Muslims, the Christians believed Jesus was here to guide humanity back to the right path, and we believe that the Prophet Muhammed followed them, HOWEVER he was the final messenger to earth to send us back onto the right path. Just a fact that the Prophet Muhammed didn't deny/reject Abrahimovic Religions, as we believe in Prophet Essa (Jesus) and Prophet Musa (Moses) and to reject them is essentially making us not Muslim, though my knowledge is limited, this is what I understand about our relationship with Abrahamic Religions.

Response: --- Muhammad was born on earth from two parents, and lived an ordinary life. He was an honorable businessman and was given the title of “The trustworthy.” --- God called him to be the messenger to his own people, the Arabs, in Mecca. His mission was to remove idolatry and restore the worship of one God, which he did before his death.

--- His prophethood did not apply to the whole world because the Jews and Christians were not into idolatry, but they had the former Scriptures, which we still have today. --- Those who believed and followed them were righteous before God, and all of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims that were, and are, unrighteous before God, will be lost.

While Muslims like to use the verse that says “Muhammad was the seal of the prophets,” or the last prophet, --- he was the prophet to his own people.

In the Christian Church we honor the Prophets who came before, but we have prophets in our midst, as it says in 1 Corinthians 12:
27 Now you (the Church) are the body of Christ, and members individually.
28 And God has appointed these in the Church: first apostles, second prophets, (also evangelists, pastors), and teachers, after that, gifts of miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

Muhammad followed the Faith of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, as we will see as we continue, and their history is recorded in the Quran. --- So Muhammad brought the same message of truth to his own people that was in the Scriptures for the Jews and Christians. --- It is just that Muslims have to start believing the Quran again.
--- I read and study the Quran along with the Bible. --- Only what is in the Bible and the Quran are the revelations that God has given to mankind to believe.

Muhammad, who didn’t write anything himself, said to his companions, “Don’t quote me as saying anything that isn’t in the Quran” --- So Muslims shouldn’t believe anything that isn’t written in the Quran.
 

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Hi Christianlady,

You had asked me these questions about Muhammad. so I will answer them short or long, as they come.

Quote: Can you answer yes and explain why you answer yes to the following questions? Thanks.

1. Did Muhammad accept Jesus Christ's teaching that God is our Father in Heaven? Yes or no?

Response: --- Since the revelations given to Muhammad verify that the Gospel was true, then Yes, Muhammad would believe it. --- However, the Father-Son relationship is not mentioned in the Quran, --- and there is an aversion to Muslims calling anyone a 'son of God,' because among the some 360 idols in the Kabah, the House of Prayer in Mecca, there there some so-called sons and daughters of gods, --- So to teach that Jesus was the Son of God, could have given the picture that there was one more Son of God. --- Therefore, the Quran doesn’t speak of God as a ‘heavenly Father,’ but as the All in all.

Look at the Prayer that is considered one of the earlies given to Muhammad, which is called “The Opening,” and has been called , “The Lord’s Prayer of the Muslims.”

1 In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

2 Praise be to God, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the world;

3 Most Gracious, Most Merciful;

4 Master of the Day of Judgment.

5 Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.

6 Show us the straight way,

7 The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

Compare that to the Prayer that Jesus taught the disciples to pray in Matthew 6:

9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.

10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.[

Notice 6 that says, “Show us the straight way.”

Jesus said in Surah 3:

50 “And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a Sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to God and obey me.”

51 "It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight."

In the Gospel Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, --- Follow Me.”

In Surah 3 Jesus said, "Obey Me, and worship God, My Lord and your Lord."

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.

The one doctrine that has caused the greatest division between Muslims and Christians is the Doctrine of Trinity. --- As well, it is divisive in Evangelical Churches.The so-called Trinity cannot be explained, nor is it Scriptural, and the verse in the Quran that ‘corrects’ it, has already been given by Tendersoul.

John 10:30-36 ESV

I and the Father are one.” The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

John 1:1 ESV

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

These are just two of the many verses used to support the concept of the Trinity, although I'm sure you would interpret them differently. I had a chance to study church history and doctrine under both Catholics and Protestants ...and people who considered themselves " evangelicals" as well. They were all Trinitarian,as almost all Christians are. None of the scholars I sat under would say that the doctrine was thought up in the fourth century in Rome.

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Salam/Shalom/Peace Placid,

 

Oh hi, I did not realize you started another thread to answer my questions. Thanks. :)

 

Did Muhammad follow the Faith of Abraham?

 

Hi Christianlady

 

I thought in all fairness I should start a new topic, "Did Muhammad follow the Faith of Abraham?" --- Then answer your following questions.

 

Quote from other topic, Post 25:

Can you answer yes and explain why you answer yes to the following questions? Thanks. 

1. Did Muhammad accept Jesus Christ's teaching that God is our Father in Heaven? Yes or no?

 2. Did Muhammad accept Jesus Christ as God's son, as Jesus himself proclaimed? Yes or no?

 3. Did Muhammd accept that Jesus Christ died on the cross and God rose him from the dead, thus fulfilling Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22? Yes or no?

 4. Did Muhammad believe that Jesus Christ "was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." ? Yes or no.

http://www.jewishvir...e/Isaiah53.html

 5. Did Muhammad obey Jesus Christ's commands to love enemies? Yes or no.

 

Response: --- These are interesting questions, and the answers may surprise you. --- The problem with answering (which I will do), with the understand from the studies I have done, will perhaps not satisfy you, or the Muslims, who don’t believe in ‘original sin,’ therefore, they don’t see our need for a Savior or Messiah.

 

 

First of all, I asked a very sincere and devout Muslim friend the questions I asked you. Her answer to all questions are a resounding no.  It was extremely easy for her to answer the questions I asked. I don't think the issue is that Muslims don't believe in 'original sin' but rather the fact is that they believe what the Qur'an says instead of what the Bible and the followers of Jesus Christ who walked and talked with him said. it's really as simple as that.

 

 

--- Does the Quran teach original sin? --- Yes it does, in Surah 7:

20 Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live for ever."

21 And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.

22 So by deceit he brought about their ‘fall’: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"

23 They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost."

 

 

Thanks for sharing this interesting passage from the Qur'an. In a Sunni hadith, it says the following: (I boldened some in the quotes below.)

 

Volume 3, Book 33, Number 254:

Narrated by 'Ali bin Al-Husain (from Safiya, the Prophet's wife)

The wives of the Prophet were with him in the mosque (while he was in Itikaf) and then they departed and the Prophet said to Safiya bint Huyai, "Don't hurry up, for I shall accompany you," (and her dwelling was in the house of Usama). The Prophet went out and in the meantime two Ansari men met him and they looked at the Prophet and passed by. The Prophet said to them, "Come here. She is (my wife) Safiya bint Huyai." They replied, "Subhan Allah, (How dare we think of evil) O Allah's Apostle! (we never expect anything bad from you)." The Prophet replied, "Satan circulates in the human being as blood circulates in the body, and I was afraid lest Satan might insert an evil thought in your minds."

http://sahih-bukhari.com/Pages/Bukhari_3_33.php

 

This is the same Safiya who is talked about in this hadith:

 

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 512 :

Narrated by Anas

The Prophet offered the Fajr Prayer near Khaibar when it was still dark and then said, "Allahu-Akbar! Khaibar is destroyed, for whenever we approach a (hostile) nation (to fight), then evil will be the morning for those who have been warned." Then the inhabitants of Khaibar came out running on the roads. The Prophet had their warriors killed, their offspring and woman taken as captives. Safiya was amongst the captives, She first came in the share of Dahya Alkali but later on she belonged to the Prophet. The Prophet made her manumission as her 'Mahr'.

http://sahih-bukhari.com/Pages/Bukhari_5_59.php

 

 

 

--- Does that not explain their disobedience to God and their fall from grace? --- They admitted their sin and guilt before God and asked for forgiveness. The next verse says:

24 (God) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood, - for a time."

27 O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment (of righteousness), to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them.

 

Because these revelations were given through Muhammad, natuurally he believed them all. --- But the Muslims who do not believe in the fall of Adam and Eve, do not believe the Quran, nor do they follow their messenger, Muhammad.

 

 

Well, like many Christians, many Muslims pick and choose what they will obey. However, the followers of Jesus Christ are supposed to obey his commands. Jesus Christ specifically said, "If you love me, keep my commands." - John 14:15 (NIV).

So, out of love obedient Christians obey Jesus Christ's commands.

 

As for my Muslim friends, they do believe the Qur'an, but they have a very different interpretation than you do. They do follow Muhammad in many areas, though they did not fight nonbelievers, like Muhammad did. Those who do want to fight nonbelievers are called radicals or extremists or terrorists by Muslims who don't want to fight nonbelievers. Thank God, all my Muslim friends have no desire to fight nonbelievers, but rather want to live with nonbelievers in peace.

 

Muhammad was called as a messenger to the Arab people, to destroy idolatry from among them and return them to worshiping One God, --- which he did. --- He was not called to start a new religion, was he? --- And there are no new laws in the Quran, except instructions for multiple wives and family inheritance, plus some dietary laws, --- so the concept that the Quran was given to correct the former Scriptures, is not true.

 

 

 

The vast majority of Muslims totally disagree with that, since they do believe that the Qur'an was given to correct the former Scriptures.
 

 

--- There is no real criticism of Christianity in the Quran.

 

 

How can you say that Qur'an 9:30 is not a criticism of Christianity?

 

And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

- Qur''an 9:30 (Picktall)

 

That sure sounds like ciriticism of Christianity to me.

 

Also, how is Qur'an 5:18 not a criticism of Christianity?

 

The Jews and Christians say: We are sons of Allah and His loved ones. Say: Why then doth He chastise you for your sins? Nay, ye are but mortals of His creating. He forgiveth whom He will, and chastiseth whom He will. Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and unto Him is the journeying. - Qur'an 5:18 (Picktall)

 

Oh, and Proverbs answers why God disciplines us for our sins:

 

My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction: For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth. - Proverbs 3:11-12 http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Proverb3.html

 

Also, how is Qur'an 4:157 not a criticism of Christianity?

 

And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture ; they slew him not for certain, - 4:157 (Picktall)

 

Jesus Christ's apostles gave their lives testifying that Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose again. John saw the crufiixion along with Mary, the mother of Jesus... both were there and saw his pain, his death, and saw him resurrected from the dead. They received the Holy Spirit which Jesus promised them (John 14-16; Acts 2) and begin sharing about him to everyone who would listen. They were very sure and were witnesses; their testimonies are alive to this day in the New Testament!

 

 

 

There are two criticisms of Catholicism, and much criticism of the Jews, “The people pf the Scriptures,” --- but honor is given to Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. --- So we will look for the 'Gospel in the Quran' in answering your questions.

 

 

What are the criticisms of Catholicism? I know the Qur'an ciriticises both the Jews and Christians. Some Sunni Muslims believe Sunni hadiths concerning Muhammad cursing both Jews and Christians.

 

Volume 7, Book 72, Number 706 :

Narrated by 'Aisha and 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas

When the disease of Allah's Apostle got aggravated, he covered his face with a Khamisa, but when he became short of breath, he would remove it from his face and say, "It is like that! May Allah curse the Jews Christians because they took the graves of their prophets as places of worship." By that he warned his follower of imitating them, by doing that which they did.

http://sahih-bukhari.com/Pages/Bukhari_7_72.php

 

While Muhammad expelled some Jewish people from Medina, Umar later on expelled both Jews and Christians from certain places in Arabia:

 

Volume 3, Book 39, Number 531 :

Narrated by Ibn 'Umar

Umar expelled the Jews and the Christians from Hijaz. When Allah's Apostle had conquered Khaibar, he wanted to expel the Jews from it as its land became the property of Allah, His Apostle, and the Muslims. Allah's Apostle intended to expel the Jews but they requested him to let them stay there on the condition that they would do the labor and get half of the fruits. Allah's Apostle told them, "We will let you stay on thus condition, as long as we wish." So, they (i.e. Jews) kept on living there until 'Umar forced them to go towards Taima' and Ariha'.

http://sahih-bukhari.com/Pages/Bukhari_3_39.php

 

While I have learned on Shiachat that Shia Muslims do not believe Sunni hadiths, there are Sunni Muslims who believe these hadiths. Do you not believe the Sunni hadiths either? Just curious. Thanks.

 

Peace and God bless you

 

 

 

 

 

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Hi Christianlady,

I have read all that you wrote in response, but there are a couple of problems.

First in Post 1. I said that, “To answer with the understanding I have from the studies I have done, will perhaps not satisfy you, or the Muslims.”

This can be a good discussion, and I welcome more questions, but I will only use the Bible and Quran to answer. --- The extra writings are not inspired, and I am surprised that you are so taken with them. --- But you have to pay attention to the wording I use, and check what is actually written in the Quran in the context of verses.

Quote from Post 1:

"There is no real criticism of Christianity in the Quran."

--- Notice the word Christianity. --- The criticism is against those who said, “We are Christians,” --- but the verses reveal that they were hypocrites.

Something else is that you can’t use anything from a hadith to ‘correct’ what you think the Quran says. --- Since Muhammad didn’t read or write, his revelations came through memory, and they are recorded in the Quran, --- I have the quote that he said to his companions, “Don’t quote me as saying anything that isn’t in the Quran.”

The first criticism of Catholicism is in Post 8, and I will give the other one later, but I want to go on with the answer to Question 2, which will help clarify the answer in Question 1.

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Salam/Shalom/Peace Placid,

 

Hi Christianlady,

I have read all that you wrote in response, but there are a couple of problems.
First in Post 1. I said that, “To answer with the understanding I have from the studies I have done, will perhaps not satisfy you, or the Muslims.”

 

 

It would be interesting to see if Muslims here on Shiachat will answer the questions with either a yes or no. I will do a poll-like question with it. I would be very surprised if any Muslim answers yes to any of those questions I asked you.

 

This can be a good discussion, and I welcome more questions, but I will only use the Bible and Quran to answer

 

 

Fair enough
 

 

--- The extra writings are not inspired, and I am surprised that you are so taken with them. ---

 

 

My Sunni Muslim friends introduced me to the ahadith, because they say they explain more the context of the Qur'an and the sunnah of Muhammad.

 

 

But you have to pay attention to the wording I use, and check what is actually written in the Quran in the context of verses.

 

 

Well, let's see what the Muslims on Shiachat think of what is actually written in the Qur'an in the context of the verses in question.

 

Quote from Post 1:
"There is no real criticism of Christianity in the Quran."
--- Notice the word Christianity. --- The criticism is against those who said, “We are Christians,” --- but the verses reveal that they were hypocrites.

 

 


Do you think people who believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God are hypocrites?

 

 


Something else is that you can’t use anything from a hadith to ‘correct’ what you think the Quran says. --- Since Muhammad didn’t read or write, his revelations came through memory, and they are recorded in the Quran,

 

 

Why couldn't Muhammad read or write? Moses both read and wrote. We know Jesus Christ read, and naturally we assume he could write too, since many people who can read can also write.

 

 

--- I have the quote that he said to his companions, “Don’t quote me as saying anything that isn’t in the Quran.”

 

 

 

 

Is that quote found in a hadith or where exactly? :) Is it found in the Qur'an?

 

 

The first criticism of Catholicism is in Post 8, and I will give the other one later, but I want to go on with the answer to Question 2, which will help clarify the answer in Question 1.

 

 

The Qur'an doesn't say Catholic anything, at least not in the 3 English translations I just searched.

 

Peace and God bless you

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Salam again Placid,

 

The one doctrine that has caused the greatest division between Muslims and Christians is the Doctrine of Trinity. --- As well, it is divisive in Evangelical Churches.
The so-called Trinity cannot be explained, nor is it Scriptural, and the verse in the Quran that ‘corrects’ it, has already been given by Tendersoul.

 

 


The Trinity doctrine is a way to understand how God relates to us. It's not so much a Catholic doctrine. Most Protestants believe that God is Triune too. While the Bible does not specifically say that God is triume, it is how many followers of Jesus Christ understand God's interaction in our lives.

 

While Peter in his first sermon after he received the Holy Spirit did not specifically say that God is Triune, Peter mentions God (the Father), Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit together as he testified what he witnessed to his fellow Israelites:  (I boldened some of the passage below.)

 

“Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

 

David said about him:

“‘I saw the Lord always before me. Because he is at my right hand, I will not be shaken.
 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest in hope,
because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.
You have made known to me the paths of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence.’[Psalm 16:8-11 (see Septuagint)]

 

“Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.

 

God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right handuntil I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’[Psalm 110:1]

“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

- Acts 2:22-36 (NIV)

 

 

So, while Peter did not specifically say, "God is triune", he did mention God (the Father), Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Peter walked and talked with Jesus Christ, and Jesus was almost stoned to death because those who rejected him considered him to commit blasphemy and "claim to be God."

 

Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?

 

“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

 

 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[Psalm 82:6]? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father."  - John 10:31-37 (NIV)

 


 

This doctrine was decided in 325 AD and the revelation in the Quran was given about 626 AD, so about 300 years later, in Surah 4:
171 Pickthall: “O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not “Three” – Cease! (it is) better for you! – Allah is only One God.”

171 Yusuf Ali: “O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him.”

This says that the ‘trinity’ is an exaggeration of the Scripture, because Jesus was the Messenger, of God, --- and His Word (which was conveyed into Mary), --- and the Holy Spirit from Him (God) --- (You see, Jesus was not one of the three, was He? --- But He was the Messenger of --- God the Father, --- the Word, that was implanted in Mary, --- and the Holy Spirit. And Jesus revealed these three from heaven all through the Gospel.)

So there are the Three mentioned from heaven in 1 John 5:
7 “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.”
--- These are ‘One in harmony,’ but not in a sense of being co-equal. --- God is God and there is no other. The Word (Logos) and the Holy Spirit are as Servants to God.
--- It says, “Believe in God and His apostles (messengers, Jesus and Muhammad). Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him.”

Now, you will want to know where it says in the Scripture that Jesus was a Servant of God, because of the long standing belief that Jesus was part of the ‘trinity,’ --- and even spoken of as being god. --- Jesus was human, but the Word that indwelt Him was from God, and the Holy Spirit was from God.

So we find this spoken by Peter in Acts 3:
13 “The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.
14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,
15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.

25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’
26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
--- (There are two more references in John 4 where Jesus is called God’s Servant, and after the resurrection, in most places, but not all, the name is written, Christ Jesus, rather than Jesus Christ, --- and many references are to Christ, as in, ‘Christ is the head of the Church.

Jesus was God’s Son in that God brought Him into being, as it says in Surah 3:
45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

So the Word came from heaven to indwell Jesus, --- but He was born in a flesh and blood body with the DNA of Mary, so he was ‘born on earth, lived on earth, and died on earth. --- He went through death, was raised again to life in a new body, and ascended to heaven. --- This was to show us that we who believe in God and accept Jesus as our Savior will be resurrected spiritually and ascend to heaven in the same way, --- which is what God has promised.

Placid

 

 

So basically, you are saying the Qur'an only negates the Trinity, and that the Qur'an does not negate that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

 

Peace and God bless you

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Hi Christianlady,


Quote: Can you answer yes and explain why you answer yes to the following questions? Thanks. --- (The next question 2)

2. Did Muhammad accept Jesus Christ as God's son, as Jesus himself proclaimed? Yes or no?

Response: --- In the Quran Jesus is usually called “The Son of Mary” but the revelations given through Muhammad are evidence that Yes, he believed that Jesus was the Son of God. --- Because, ‘God said “Be” and He was,’ as we will see later.
The earliest message that Muhammad taught had to have been the beginning of Surah 19, the miraculous birth of John the Baptist, and the virgin Birth of Jesus.

His wife Khadijah was a Christian so he may have been familiar with it from the Gospel of Luke. --- However, it was well known to the first followers, and would have been taught to them in the first three years when Muhammad was teaching them privately.

I use the 'introduction' in the Pickthall Translation as it seems accurate to all of the critics. It was translated in the early 1900’s and is written in the Old English like the King James. --- As well as the history of Muhammad and the Muslims up until his death, the Translation gives an intro to each Surah as to the approximate time and situation, when each was revealed.

Quote: “For the first three years of the Mission, the Prophet preached only to his family and intimate friends, while the people of Mecca regarded him as one who had become a little mad. --- At the end of the third year the Prophet received the command to ‘asise and warn,’ whereupon he began to preach in public.”

--- The idolaters opposed him and when he began to speak against their gods, proclaiming One God, they became openly hostile. It goes on to say:
Quote: “The converts of the first years were mostly humble folk, unable to defend themselves against oppression. So cruel was the persecution they endured that the Prophet advised ‘all who could possibly contrive to do so,’ to emmigrate to a Christian country, Abyssinia.” --- Which they did for their safety.

We pick up the story in the intro to the Surah 19, called Mary:

The Negus, or King of Abyssinia was asked why the pilgrims had come to his county to seek refuge, and it says:
Quote: “The Negus sent for the spokesman of the refugees and, in the presence of the bishops of his realm, questioned them of their religion. Ja’far ibn Abi Talib, cousin of the Prophet, answered”:

--- “We were folk immerced in ignorance, worshiping idols, eating carrion, given to lewdness, severing the ties of kinship, bad neighbors, the strong among us preying on the weak. Thus were we till God sent to us a messenger of our own, whose lineage, honesty, trustworthiness and charity we knew, and he called us to God that we should acknowledge His unity and worship Him, and eschew all the stones and idols that we and our fathers used to worship beside Him; and ordered us to be truthful and restore the pledge, and observe the ties of kinship, and be good neighbors, and to abstain from things forbidden, and from blood, and forbade us lewdness, and false speech, and not to prey upon the wealth of orphans, and not to accuse good women, and to worship God only.”
“And when they persecuted us and oppressed us and hemmed us in, and kept us from the practice of our religion, we came forth to thy land and sought thy protection, and hoped that we would not be troubled in thy land, O King.”

Then the Negus asked him, “Have you with you ought of that which he (Muhammad) brought from God?” Ja’far answered, “Yes.” --- Then the Negus said, “Relate it to me.”

Then Ja’far related the following, which he had to have memorized, --- called Mary.
2. (This is) a recital of the Mercy of thy Lord to His servant Zakariya.
3. Behold! he cried to his Lord in secret,
4. Praying: "O my Lord! infirm indeed are my bones, and the hair of my head doth glisten with grey: but never am I unblest, O my Lord, in my prayer to Thee!
5. "Now I fear (what) my relatives (and colleagues) (will do) after me: but my wife is barren: so give me an heir as from Thyself,-
6. "(One that) will (truly) represent me, and represent the posterity of Jacob; and make him, O my Lord! one with whom Thou art well-pleased!"
7. (His prayer was answered): "O Zakariya! We give thee good news of a son: His name shall be Yahya (John): on none by that name have We conferred distinction before."
8. He said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son, when my wife is barren and I have grown quite decrepit from old age?"
9. He said: "So (it will be) thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: I did indeed create thee before, when thou hadst been nothing!'"
10. (Zakariya) said: "O my Lord! give me a Sign." "Thy Sign," was the answer, "Shall be that thou shalt speak to no man for three nights, although thou art not dumb."
11. So Zakariya came out to his people from him chamber: He told them by signs to celebrate God’s praises in the morning and in the evening.
12. (To his son came the command): "O Yahya! take hold of the Book with might": and We gave him Wisdom even as a youth,
13. And piety (for all creatures) as from Us, and purity: He was devout,
14. And kind to his parents, and he was not overbearing or rebellious.
15. So Peace on him the day he was born, the day that he dies, and the day that he will be raised up to life (again)!
16. Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
18. She said: "I seek refuge from thee to ((God)) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear God."
19. He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
20. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
21. He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."
22. So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.

27. At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
28. "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"
29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"
30. He said: "I am indeed a servant of God. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
31. "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
32. "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
33. "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
36. Verily God is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.

So consider this Christianlady,

This was the testimony to the Negus or King of Abyssinia of what these refugees had learned from Muhammad, and what they believed. --- This is no doubt why Muhammad would send them to a Christian country for their safety. --- The testimony might have ended at verse 33, but the next three verses confirm the action.

Notice 34. ‘Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.’
--- Who disputes it? --- This is the ‘truth’that we believe as Christians, is it not?
So it would be the Muslims that came later, and the Muslims of today who dispute it, would it not?

35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
--- This says, ‘It is not befitting,’ meaning ‘out of the ordinary’ (and below the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. --- But glory be to Him --- When He determines a matter, or DECIDES TO DO SOMETHING, He only says to it “BE!” --- AND IT IS.

Ask your friends if that does not say that God had a Son named Jesus?
Jesus was the ‘begotten’ son of Mary, but God was His Father, --- as Jesus had no earthly father, did He?

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Hi Christianlady,

Quote: Can you answer yes and explain why you answer yes to the following questions? Thanks. --- (The next question 2)

2. Did Muhammad accept Jesus Christ as God's son, as Jesus himself proclaimed? Yes or no?

Response: --- In the Quran Jesus is usually called “The Son of Mary” but the revelations given through Muhammad are evidence that Yes, he believed that Jesus was the Son of God. --- Because, ‘God said “Be” and He was,’ as we will see later.

The earliest message that Muhammad taught had to have been the beginning of Surah 19,

the miraculous birth of John the Baptist, and the virgin Birth of Jesus.

 

ََQuran:

 

The Jews said, “Ezra is the son of God,” and the Christians said, “The Messiah is the son of God.”

These are their statements, out of their mouths. They emulate the statements of those who blasphemed before.

(At-Tawba: 30)

 

Ask your friends if that does not say that God had a Son named Jesus?

Jesus was the ‘begotten’ son of Mary, but God was His Father, --- as Jesus had no earthly father, did He?

 

They disbelieve those who say, “God is the Christ, the son of Mary.”

Say, “Who can prevent God, if He willed, from annihilating the Christ son of Mary, and his mother, and everyone on earth?”

To God belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and what is between them.

He creates whatever He wills, and God has power over everything. (Al-Maaida: 17)

 

Then comes the same question. Adam was more befitted to be God's son,

as he neither had a mother nor father.Both were breathed into by the Spirit from God:

 

When I have formed him, and breathed into him of My spirit, fall down prostrating before him.” (15: 29) -Adam

 

And she who guarded her virginity. We breathed into her of Our spirit, and made her and her son a sign to the world. (21: 91)-Jesus

 

From Islamic perspective, if you want to say who can be Jesus's Father,

it would be more in the line of the holy spirt, which according to Islam, is not God's self,

But God's honorable creation.

 

 

I am just explaining the Islamic perspective , which we have discussed with our teacher.

 

If a discussion based on Quran has to done, It is best you know a bit of Arabic at least.

 

Otherwise everything will be taken out of context.

Unfortunately those who translated the Quran were not deeply rooted in knowledge.

And injustice has been done to the Quran.

 

Like the verse were the word Jinn was omitted ! 

 

Last not least:

 

In Islam, The understanding of the Quran is for those who have attained a certain spiritual level,

and then God directly gives them the understanding.

According to the Quran : The Quran Is NOT to be interpreted by those who have not been given this Gift by God.

Quran

As for those in whose minds is deviation, they follow the unspecific part,

seeking discord, and seeking to derive an interpretation. 

But none knows its interpretation except God and those firmly rooted in knowledge say, 

“We believe in it; all is from our Lord.” 

But none recollects except those with understanding(Aali Imraan: 7)

It is like me who knows nothing about medicine,

going and reading the Original Med text books,

and interpret the remedy of diseases with out the consultation of a professional.

I will end up killing people with my lack of proper knowledge.

 

Hence it is not up to us to interpret the Quran even if we know Arabic, leave alone translations

 

This is the Islamic Perspective according to the Quran.

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Salam/Shalom/Peace Placid,

Is that quote found in a hadith or where exactly? :) Is it found in the Qur'an?

The Qur'an doesn't say Catholic anything, at least not in the 3 English translations I just searched.

Peace and God bless you

The first one...okay, that was cute.

The second one...obviously, agreed, the Quran couldn't ...there was no "Catholicism", there were only the local Christians that the early Muslims were having issues with. Which would likely be the ones who would later be known as " Orthodox" and whose churches, then and now, had their own patriarchs.

Still not sure why this has to be laid at the feet of " Roman Catholics". Haven't some Protestants ever heard of the Eastern Orthodox Churches?

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Hi Tendersoul,

Quote from Post 19:
In Islam, The understanding of the Quran is for those who have attained a certain spiritual level, and then God directly gives them the understanding.

According to the Quran : The Quran Is NOT to be interpreted by those who have not been given this Gift by God.

Quran
As for those in whose minds is deviation, they follow the unspecific part, seeking discord, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none knows its interpretation except God and those firmly rooted in knowledge say, “We believe in it; all is from our Lord.”
But none recollects except those with understanding. (Aali Imraan: 7)

Response: --- If that is the case, why does it say this?
12:2 Lo! We have revealed it, a Lecture in Arabic, that ye may understand.
12:2 We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an, in order that ye may learn wisdom.
20:113 Thus have We sent this down - an arabic Qur'an - and explained therein in detail some of the warnings, in order that they may fear God, or that it may cause their remembrance (of Him).
39:28 It is) a Qur'an in Arabic, without any crookedness (therein): in order that they may guard against Evil.
41:3 A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail; - a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand; -
46:12 When before it there was the Scripture of Moses, an example and a mercy; and this is a confirming Scripture in the Arabic language, that it may warn those who do wrong and bring good tidings for the righteous.

I am familiar with the verse you quoted a part of, --- from Surah 3, and it is helpful when you give the number of the Surah as well as, or instead of, the name, because in the Pickthall, it just gives the English translation of the name.

To look at verse 7 you really have to start with 3, because 7 is dependant on 3 and 4:
3:3 It is He (God) Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)
4 Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.
--- (The ‘criterion’ was given to Moses and is basically the Ten Commandments, the ‘moral code of ethics’ for all generations. --- And the Signs of God refer mainly to Jesus.)

7 He (God) it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: --- others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, --- but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

The Quran was written in Arabic so that you who know Arabic can understand it first hand. --- It has been translated into English in different versions and we can check more than one to get the consensus of meaning, so that we can understand it as well in English.
It is important in 7 to know the fundamentals of the Bible and Quran so we are not drawn into unprofitable debates over the ‘allegorical’ which are mainly men’s opinions.

Notice in Surah 3:3, it confirmed the Torah and the Gospel as truth, and in 46:12, it confirms in the Arabic language the Scripture of Moses, which was written in Hebrew. --- If God said it was true, who are we to doubt it?
 

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Hi Christianlady,

Following yesterdays long post which gave you some history of the first followers of Muhammad, who learned the ‘beginning of the Gospel’ with the miraculous birth of John the Baptist and the virgin birth of Jesus, I thought I should continue with the next presentation of the account --- In the first three years they got the basics. --- The ones who moved to Abyssinia remained there about 15 years before they moved to Al Madinah to join the growing Muslim population there.

--- The Muslims from Mecca moved over a short period of time to Madinah before Muhammad, and Muhammad moved after ten years of public preaching in Mecca. --- The move was called the Hijrah and the time is marked in relationship to that. --- Surah 2 was revealed about the second year of the Hijrah and we will deal with that in your next question.

Surah 3 was revealed in the third year of the Hijrah because the Muslims had grown in number, and they needed to be taught constantly. Surah 3 starts with the verses I quoted to Tendersoul on the other topic which said:

3 It is He (God) Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)

4 Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.

--- (Notice the stern warning it gives to “Those who reject Faith in the Signs of God.”

Then we will go on and pick up the testimony of Muhammad himself:

19 The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.

20. So if they dispute with thee, say: "I have submitted My whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me." And say to the People of the Book and to those who are unlearned: "Do ye (also) submit yourselves?" If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, --- thy duty is to convey the Message; and in Allah's sight are (all) His servants.

21. As to those who deny the Signs of Allah and in defiance of right, who slay the prophets, and slay those who teach just dealing with mankind, announce to them a grievous penalty.

22. They are those whose works will bear no fruit in this world and in the Hereafter nor will they have anyone to help.

31 Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

32. Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger.: But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith.

38 There did Zakariya pray to his Lord, saying: "O my Lord! Grant unto me from Thee a progeny that is pure: for Thou art He that heareth prayer!

39. While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels called unto him: "(Allah) doth give thee glad tidings of Yahya, witnessing the truth of a Word from Allah, and (be besides) noble, chaste, and a prophet,- of the (goodly) company of the righteous."

40. He said: "O my lord! How shall I have a son seeing I am very old and my wife is barren?" "Thus" was the answer "doth Allah accomplish what He willeth."

41. He said: "O my Lord! Give me a Sign!" "Thy Sign," was the answer, "Shall be that thou shalt speak to no man for three days but with signals. Then celebrate the praises of thy Lord again and again, and glorify Him in the evening and in the morning."

45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.

--- (Notice that Jesus was born on earth from Mary, and the ‘Word’ came down from God in heaven and indwelt her, and indwelt Jesus. --- And because the Word was in Jesus, He could speak through Jesus even when He was a baby)

46. "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

48. "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,

49. "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God’s leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God’s leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

50. "'(I have come to you), to attest (confirm) the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.

51. "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

52. When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God." Said the disciples: "We are God’s helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims (surrendered ones).

53. "Our Lord (God)! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger (Jesus). then write us down among those who bear witness." T

55. Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.”

56. "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

--- (Notice again this warning to unbelievers who reject Faith)

57. "As to those who believe and work righteousness, God will pay them (in full) their reward; but God loveth not those who do wrong."

58. "This is what we rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the Message of Wisdom."

--- This describes the life and ministry of Jesus through to the resurrection and ascension, where God said, “I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith.”

--- Isn’t this what we believe? --- Is this not the teaching of Jesus, in the Quran?

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The first one...okay, that was cute.

 

 

Shalom again LeftCoastMom :)

 

I didn't mean to be cute. I am curious about the quote! Had to come from somewhere, right?

 

The second one...obviously, agreed, the Quran couldn't ...there was no "Catholicism", there were only the local Christians that the early Muslims were having issues with.

 

 

Some (not all, cause we are very diverse) Protestants believe that people who follow(ed) the leadership of the Bishop of Rome are Catholic. Was there no Bishop of Rome during the time of Muhammad? It seems from Catholic history that they have a list of who they believe was the Bishop of Rome from Peter till now. (I personally don't believe that Peter called himself a Pope or had such authority.)

 

Which would likely be the ones who would later be known as " Orthodox" and whose churches, then and now, had their own patriarchs.Still not sure why this has to be laid at the feet of " Roman Catholics".

 

 

If Roman missionaries went into Arabia, it's possible Muhammad and his followers met them. Again, missionaries under the leadership of the Bishop of Rome seemed very prolific in evangelizing. :) (I don't think that's a bad thing, except when torture and forced conversions and killing or expulsion are done, which are totally against Jesus Christ's commands to love.) When I was sick once, a very nice Catholic priest came and prayed for me, along with one of my beloved Catholic friends, and I really appreciated that. :) Also, my sis works in a Catholic hospital; many Catholics have done a wonderful job in caring for the sick and helping the poor. No complaints with any of that, as that is following Jesus Christ's example, and Catholic missionaries who obey Jesus Christ's commands to love are also obeying Jesus Christ's Great Commission.

 

About Orthodox, yeah Muhammad and his followers must have met them. Both groups believe in the Trinity, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that he died on the cross and rose again, and that God is our Father in Heaven, right? The Qur'an does not seem to specify any Christian group while really getting after the above fundamental beliefs. Basically, the Qur'an rewrites what Jesus Christ did and said, and the testimonies of his apostles and disciples.

 

 Haven't some Protestants ever heard of the Eastern Orthodox Churches?

 

 

Yes lol, and thanks for the pictures. :)

 

Peace and God bless you

Hello Placid,

 

Hi Christianlady,

Following yesterdays long post which gave you some history of the first followers of Muhammad, who learned the ‘beginning of the Gospel’ with the miraculous birth of John the Baptist and the virgin birth of Jesus, I thought I should continue with the next presentation of the account --- In the first three years they got the basics. --- The ones who moved to Abyssinia remained there about 15 years before they moved to Al Madinah to join the growing Muslim population there.

 

 

I am so sorry; time goes by so fast!!! I have an appointment and have to go. If God wills, I hope to reply to you this weekend.

 

Peace and God bless you

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Hi Tendersoul,

Quote from Post 19:

In Islam, The understanding of the Quran is for those who have attained a certain spiritual level, and then God directly gives them the understanding.

According to the Quran : The Quran Is NOT to be interpreted by those who have not been given this Gift by God.

Quran

As for those in whose minds is deviation, they follow the unspecific part, seeking discord, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none knows its interpretation except God and those firmly rooted in knowledge say, “We believe in it; all is from our Lord.”

But none recollects except those with understanding. (Aali Imraan: 7)

Response: --- If that is the case, why does it say this?

12:2 Lo! We have revealed it, a Lecture in Arabic, that ye may understand.

12:2 We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an, in order that ye may learn wisdom.

20:113 Thus have We sent this down - an arabic Qur'an - and explained therein in detail some of the warnings, in order that they may fear God, or that it may cause their remembrance (of Him).

39:28 It is) a Qur'an in Arabic, without any crookedness (therein): in order that they may guard against Evil.

41:3 A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail; - a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand; -

46:12 When before it there was the Scripture of Moses, an example and a mercy; and this is a confirming Scripture in the Arabic language, that it may warn those who do wrong and bring good tidings for the righteous.

I am familiar with the verse you quoted a part of, --- from Surah 3, and it is helpful when you give the number of the Surah as well as, or instead of, the name, because in the Pickthall, it just gives the English translation of the name.

To look at verse 7 you really have to start with 3, because 7 is dependant on 3 and 4:

3:3 It is He (God) Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)

4 Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.

--- (The ‘criterion’ was given to Moses and is basically the Ten Commandments, the ‘moral code of ethics’ for all generations. --- And the Signs of God refer mainly to Jesus.)

7 He (God) it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: --- others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, --- but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

The Quran was written in Arabic so that you who know Arabic can understand it first hand. --- It has been translated into English in different versions and we can check more than one to get the consensus of meaning, so that we can understand it as well in English.

It is important in 7 to know the fundamentals of the Bible and Quran so we are not drawn into unprofitable debates over the ‘allegorical’ which are mainly men’s opinions.

Notice in Surah 3:3, it confirmed the Torah and the Gospel as truth, and in 46:12, it confirms in the Arabic language the Scripture of Moses, which was written in Hebrew. --- If God said it was true, who are we to doubt it?

Greetings Placid

This is a very long discussion, and for it to be understood it will take a very long while, but just briefly you pointed something very important. Thank you for that.

This has been discussed with my teacher in depth.

You stated:

3:3 It is He (God) Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)

4 Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.

--- (The ‘criterion’ was given to Moses and is basically the Ten Commandments, the ‘moral code of ethics’ for all generations. --- And the Signs of God refer mainly to Jesus.)

*******

First dear placid, and this is sincere advice, as I am deeply disturbed with the translations,

I just crossed checked with the Original text and my !

Words were added in English and gave it a whole different meaning

( there was no arabic text as- He sent down the Law- by pickthall stated in arabic.

The word for law in Arabic is Ahkam/ hokm, and is not stated in the verse.)

So it is best to learn Arabic grammar at least to be able to even point out the verses.

I really do not mean to offend you, because these translations are literally taking the meanings out of context.

Anyway, Criterion, is similar to a book But separate from the book itself, that is why it is mentioned separately ,

and is also * sent down * similar to the book, for the people of understanding/ for people of the reminder/

and those God made deeply rooted in knowledge

 

( also the criterion cannot be seen by the masses like the book which is written can be seen,

as this is given by God , to those God chooses to give -

like what you mentioned, the book was sent down to moses and jesus ,

but in Islam the book is ALONG with the criterion and given to them,

because they are the people of understanding,The people of the reminder,

and deeply rooted in knowledge , thru the criterion which was given to them they explain the details of the book )

Similarly the criterion of the Quran came down with the Quran, and was GIVEN to Muhammad,

and the Imams, because these are the people of the reminder /understanding /deeply rooted in knowledge,

and who are God conscious and explain the laws of the book thru the criterion to mankind.

As we both know the Books TORAH and the GOSPEL , is a guide itself , but although it is a guide, yet it has to be explained by the Guides God chose to explain the book. Other wise God could have just sent the Books down, with Angels to the people as a guide and tell each one of us to use it as a guide , without Moses and Jesus.

It has also been mentioned in the Quran, if you want to receive the criterion,

you should have to reach a certain stage which is called taqwa , ( God consciousness ),

which is a stage after initial submission , which is Islam, and even after belief, which is Iman.

Once you start practicing the rules which God laid out , and explained thru the people of understanding,

the people of the reminder, and those deeply rooted in knowledge ,

you too can start receiving the criterion according to your God consciousness in mind and practical level.

Because as you too have stated it is GIVEN.

This is very evident in the true documentary of the unlettered man, I had posted.

He was extremely sincere, honest , humble man who tried to follow all the rules explained to him,

and He received the whole same exact Quran, along with the criterion according to his level of God consciousness,

which all the scholars who were academically trained were shocked to have witnessed,

and asked what did this man do, that God has favored him with such a gift.

This was a Gift that was GIVEN to him.

The understanding of Quran has levels for those who were Arabs , and because the prophet had the criterion, he explained to them in Arabic, some verses were very clear, some definitely needed to be explained thru the one who has the criterion.

For example you will go to heaven if you do so and so act, and will go to hell if you do so and so act,

but what is heaven and hell has to explained by the prophet and many other examples.

It is like Jesus and Moses with the Torah and gospel along with the criterion,

but people at the same time, would use their own analogies to explain the Books without the criterion to the rest people and cause confusion,

Instead of asking the people who were given the criterion, and explain the rules thru that to the people.

That is why you see so many different interpretations by people that could mislead,because they used personal analogies to explain something which needs the criterion given by God, and they have done it ,without having received the criterion from God.

This is a very brief explanation from the Islamic point of view from my gifted teacher, and not my personal opinions.

Sorry I am on my iPhone and have limits.

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Shalom again LeftCoastMom :)

Some (not all, cause we are very diverse) Protestants believe that people who follow(ed) the leadership of the Bishop of Rome are Catholic. Was there no Bishop of Rome during the time of Muhammad? It seems from Catholic history that they have a list of who they believe was the Bishop of Rome from Peter till now. (I personally don't believe that Peter called himself a Pope or had such authority.)

If Roman missionaries went into Arabia, it's possible Muhammad and his followers met them. Again, missionaries under the leadership of the Bishop of Rome seemed very prolific in evangelizing. :)

About Orthodox, yeah Muhammad and his followers must have met them. Both groups believe in the Trinity, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that he died on the cross and rose again, and that God is our Father in Heaven, right?

Yes, but there were no " two groups" at the time of Mohammed...no " Catholic" or " Orthodox" because the church was still one Church. But it was not centralized under one earthly authority. In fact, never has been.

Yes, there was a Pope in Rome, but as I stated before, there were many established churches in different areas including the Middle East,with their own leaders ( Patriarchs). They did not accept the Bishop of Rome ( the Pope) as their leader, not because they didn't like him, but because they had their own leaders. You read about these Churches of Asia in the New Testament. They still exist. Islam did not destroy them.

Ergo, there was no need for " Roman missionaries " to go into Arabia or any other place in the Middle East or North Africa at the time the Muslims were emerging. The Arabs had been Christians for a long time and had had their own regional Churches for the better part of six centuries , since shortly after the time of Christ....and were still chanting happily along when the Muslim communities were being formed. They were not under the authority of the Bishop of Rome. They had their own hierarchies and traditions. Their Patriarchs were ( and in many cases still are)seated in the ancient cities of Antioch, Jerusalem, Damascus, Alexandria,etc. There were parts of what is now Saudi Arabia that were heavily Christian.

Mohammed married a Christian, if I am not mistaken...and she wasn't a Catholic. I believe she was a Coptic Christian ( a community based in Egypt).

Below are the remains of a 4th century church in what is now Saudi Arabia.

I don't know when the early Muslims would have seen anyone under the authority of the Bishop of Rome, but pretty sure whoever they were referring to as needing " correction" could not be Latin Rite.

post-183511-0-39531500-1447363277_thumb.

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Hi Tendesoul,

Quote from Post 24:

So it is best to learn Arabic grammar at least to be able to even point out the verses.

I really do not mean to offend you, because these translations are literally taking the meanings out of context.

Anyway, Criterion, is similar to a book But separate from the book itself, that is why it is mentioned separately ,and is also * sent down * similar to the book, for the people of understanding

Response: --- Thank you for your response, and rest assured that you haven’t said anything to offend me, nor will you say anything that will offend me, and I appreciate your willingness to discuss.

However, in looking at the translations of Surah 3:3, I will check others.

--- I should explain my interest in the Quran. --- After what is called 9-11, I wondered about the Muslim Faith and some years earlier in a box of books, I found a Pickthall Translation, and for the sake of interest at the time, put it on a shelf. --- I came on Shiachat in 2005 and I said “I wanted to learn about Islam.” --- The Moderator at the time who responded said, “If you want to learn about Islam, read the Quran.” --- I began reading and comparing to the former Scriptures, as I have studied the Bible for many years. I have continued studying and answering question since then.

--- For verification of verses in the Quran I go to Quran Browser, which gives 9 good English translations so I take from their wording and accept that. --- If you, --- who can read Arabic have trouble with the wording, it would be useless for each individual to try and prove for themselves what is the right wording. --- The other thing is that a person has no faith in God if they have to prove everything for themselves.

Let’s look at the different translations of Surah 3:3

Pickthall: He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

Yusuf Ali: It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus).

Shakir: He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Taurat and the Injeel.

Sher Ali: HE has sent down to thee the Book containing the truth and fulfilling that which precedes it; and HE has sent down the Torah and the Gospel.

Khalifa: He sent down to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel.

Arberry: He has sent down upon thee the Book with the truth, confirming what was before it, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel.

Palmer: He has sent down to thee the Book, in truth, confirming what was before it, and has revealed the law, and the gospel.

Rodwell: In truth hath He sent down to thee "the Book," which confirmeth those which precede it: For He had sent down the Law, and the Evangel aforetime.

Sale: He hath sent down unto thee the book [of the Koran] with truth, confirming that which was [revealed] before it; for he had formerly sent down the law, and the gospel,

Transliterated Arabic: Nazzala AAalayka alkitaba bialhaqqi musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi waanzala alttawrata waal-injeela

Notice that Sale inserts [of the Koran]. --- Surah 3 was revealed about the third year of the Hijrah, so the ‘Scriptures’ or the ‘Book” send down to Muhammad included the Torah and the Gospel, plus the confirming Surahs that he had received. --- There were more Surahs to come, and the Quran as we have it today was not in Book form for over another 25 years.

How does your personal translation differ from the above?

--- Again, This indicates that the ‘Criterion’ refers to the ‘Ten Commandments’ given to Moses and Aaron his brother, --- and as you said, --- given in addition to the other Scriptures, but becoming the Moral ‘Code of Ethics’ for all generations.

“And We gave unto Moses the Scripture and the criterion (of right and wrong), that ye might be led aright.” 2:53

“And We verily gave Moses and Aaron the Criterion (of right and wrong) and a light and a Reminder for those who keep from evil,” 21:48

I will add later how Muhammad was given understanding of the Scriptures.

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Salam/Shalom/Peace Placid,

 

Response: --- In the Quran Jesus is usually called “The Son of Mary” but the revelations given through Muhammad are evidence that Yes, he believed that Jesus was the Son of God. --- Because, ‘God said “Be” and He was,’ as we will see later.

The earliest message that Muhammad taught had to have been the beginning of Surah 19, the miraculous birth of John the Baptist, and the virgin Birth of Jesus.

 

 

 

The Qur'an clearly rejects Jesus being the Son of God in Qur'an 9:30, and every single Muslim I know rejects Jesus being the Son of God, so I am sorry, but there is no evidence that Muhammad believed Jesus is the Son of God. If so, then Muslims around the world would believe Jesus is the Son of God and the Qur'an wouldn't fiercely condemn Jews and Christians for who they believe is the son of God.
 


His wife Khadijah was a Christian so he may have been familiar with it from the Gospel of Luke. --- However, it was well known to the first followers, and would have been taught to them in the first three years when Muhammad was teaching them privately.

 

 

 

Where in the Qur'an does Muhammad quote from the Gospel account of Luke?

 


I use the 'introduction' in the Pickthall Translation as it seems accurate to all of the critics. It was translated in the early 1900’s and is written in the Old English like the King James. --- As well as the history of Muhammad and the Muslims up until his death, the Translation gives an intro to each Surah as to the approximate time and situation, when each was revealed.

 

 

 

Thanks. Before a very kind Muslim on Shiachat showed me that the Yusuf Ali translation was not very accurate, I used to read the Yusuf Ali, but now I read Picktall. :)



Quote: “For the first three years of the Mission, the Prophet preached only to his family and intimate friends, while the people of Mecca regarded him as one who had become a little mad. --- At the end of the third year the Prophet received the command to ‘asise and warn,’ whereupon he began to preach in public.”

--- The idolaters opposed him and when he began to speak against their gods, proclaiming One God, they became openly hostile. It goes on to say:
Quote: “The converts of the first years were mostly humble folk, unable to defend themselves against oppression. So cruel was the persecution they endured that the Prophet advised ‘all who could possibly contrive to do so,’ to emmigrate to a Christian country, Abyssinia.” --- Which they did for their safety.

We pick up the story in the intro to the Surah 19, called Mary:

The Negus, or King of Abyssinia was asked why the pilgrims had come to his county to seek refuge, and it says:
Quote: “The Negus sent for the spokesman of the refugees and, in the presence of the bishops of his realm, questioned them of their religion. Ja’far ibn Abi Talib, cousin of the Prophet, answered”:

--- “We were folk immerced in ignorance, worshiping idols, eating carrion, given to lewdness, severing the ties of kinship, bad neighbors, the strong among us preying on the weak. Thus were we till God sent to us a messenger of our own, whose lineage, honesty, trustworthiness and charity we knew, and he called us to God that we should acknowledge His unity and worship Him, and eschew all the stones and idols that we and our fathers used to worship beside Him; and ordered us to be truthful and restore the pledge, and observe the ties of kinship, and be good neighbors, and to abstain from things forbidden, and from blood, and forbade us lewdness, and false speech, and not to prey upon the wealth of orphans, and not to accuse good women, and to worship God only.”
“And when they persecuted us and oppressed us and hemmed us in, and kept us from the practice of our religion, we came forth to thy land and sought thy protection, and hoped that we would not be troubled in thy land, O King.”

Then the Negus asked him, “Have you with you ought of that which he (Muhammad) brought from God?” Ja’far answered, “Yes.” --- Then the Negus said, “Relate it to me.”

Then Ja’far related the following, which he had to have memorized, --- called Mary.
2. (This is) a recital of the Mercy of thy Lord to His servant Zakariya.
3. Behold! he cried to his Lord in secret,
4. Praying: "O my Lord! infirm indeed are my bones, and the hair of my head doth glisten with grey: but never am I unblest, O my Lord, in my prayer to Thee!
5. "Now I fear (what) my relatives (and colleagues) (will do) after me: but my wife is barren: so give me an heir as from Thyself,-
6. "(One that) will (truly) represent me, and represent the posterity of Jacob; and make him, O my Lord! one with whom Thou art well-pleased!"
7. (His prayer was answered): "O Zakariya! We give thee good news of a son: His name shall be Yahya (John): on none by that name have We conferred distinction before."
8. He said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son, when my wife is barren and I have grown quite decrepit from old age?"
9. He said: "So (it will be) thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: I did indeed create thee before, when thou hadst been nothing!'"
10. (Zakariya) said: "O my Lord! give me a Sign." "Thy Sign," was the answer, "Shall be that thou shalt speak to no man for three nights, although thou art not dumb."
11. So Zakariya came out to his people from him chamber: He told them by signs to celebrate God’s praises in the morning and in the evening.
12. (To his son came the command): "O Yahya! take hold of the Book with might": and We gave him Wisdom even as a youth,
13. And piety (for all creatures) as from Us, and purity: He was devout,
14. And kind to his parents, and he was not overbearing or rebellious.
15. So Peace on him the day he was born, the day that he dies, and the day that he will be raised up to life (again)!
16. Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
18. She said: "I seek refuge from thee to ((God)) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear God."
19. He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
20. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
21. He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."
22. So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.

27. At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
28. "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"
29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"
30. He said: "I am indeed a servant of God. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
31. "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
32. "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
33. "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

36. Verily God is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.

 

 

Verse 35 above also shows that Muhammad denies that Jesus is the son of God.

 


So consider this Christianlady,

This was the testimony to the Negus or King of Abyssinia of what these refugees had learned from Muhammad, and what they believed. --- This is no doubt why Muhammad would send them to a Christian country for their safety. --- The testimony might have ended at verse 33, but the next three verses confirm the action.

 

 

It was very nice of the King of Abyssinia to help Muhammad and his persecuted followers. Christians can and should help people, but that doesn't mean they should agree with what they claim.  Jesus Christ said that false prophets would come and deceive many, and that includes deceiving many of Jesus' followers (Matthew 24:11, 24). 

 



Notice 34. ‘Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.’
--- Who disputes it? --- This is the ‘truth’that we believe as Christians, is it not?
So it would be the Muslims that came later, and the Muslims of today who dispute it, would it not?

 

 

Nope. That is talking about people who believe Jesus is the Son of God who disputes with Muhammad, not Muhammad's followers who agree with him lol. :)



35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
--- This says, ‘It is not befitting,’ meaning ‘out of the ordinary’ (and below the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. --- But glory be to Him --- When He determines a matter, or DECIDES TO DO SOMETHING, He only says to it “BE!” --- AND IT IS.

 

 

This is a completely different interpretation than what both Sunni and Shia Muslims believe, and though it's an interesting interpretation, Muslims don't believe this interpretation, whether back in Muhammad's time, or Abu Bakr's, or Umar's or Uthman's or Ali's or till now. I'm sorry; it would be awesome if Muslims did believe that Jesus is the Son of God, but they don't. If they did, I'd accept more your interpretation of this verse. :)


 

Ask your friends if that does not say that God had a Son named Jesus?

 

 

 

I asked one of my Muslim friends and she said, "Of course God had no son. How can Christians even think that?"

 


Jesus was the ‘begotten’ son of Mary, but God was His Father, --- as Jesus had no earthly father, did He?

 

 

The Qur'an and Muslims both unquestionably accept that Jesus has no earthly father, but I think they completely ignore Joseph, the son (descendant) of David whose ancestry is found in the Gospel account of Matthew. Is Joseph the descendant of King David found in the Qur'an?

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The Qur'an and Muslims both unquestionably accept that Jesus has no earthly father, but I think they completely ignore Joseph, the son (descendant) of David whose ancestry is found in the Gospel account of Matthew. Is Joseph the descendant of King David found in the Qur'an?

 

He could be the descendant of anyone, wouldn't make a difference to Jesus or our faith in him and what he stood for. 

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Following yesterdays long post which gave you some history of the first followers of Muhammad, who learned the ‘beginning of the Gospel’ with the miraculous birth of John the Baptist and the virgin birth of Jesus, I thought I should continue with the next presentation of the account --- In the first three years they got the basics. --- The ones who moved to Abyssinia remained there about 15 years before they moved to Al Madinah to join the growing Muslim population there.

--- The Muslims from Mecca moved over a short period of time to Madinah before Muhammad, and Muhammad moved after ten years of public preaching in Mecca. --- The move was called the Hijrah and the time is marked in relationship to that. --- Surah 2 was revealed about the second year of the Hijrah and we will deal with that in your next question.

Surah 3 was revealed in the third year of the Hijrah because the Muslims had grown in number, and they needed to be taught constantly. Surah 3 starts with the verses I quoted to Tendersoul on the other topic which said:

3 It is He (God) Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)

4 Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.

--- (Notice the stern warning it gives to “Those who reject Faith in the Signs of God.”

 

 

Interestingly, verse 3 confirms the Gospel of Jesus, but it seems that some Muslims think Jesus wrote a book which his followers lost or corrupted. However, followers of Jesus understand that Jesus is the Word of God and the Gospel (good news) is what Jesus preached and did for us!  God preserved their testimony for posterity in the 4 Gospel accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

 

Then we will go on and pick up the testimony of Muhammad himself:

19 The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.

20. So if they dispute with thee, say: "I have submitted My whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me." And say to the People of the Book and to those who are unlearned: "Do ye (also) submit yourselves?" If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, --- thy duty is to convey the Message; and in Allah's sight are (all) His servants.

21. As to those who deny the Signs of Allah and in defiance of right, who slay the prophets, and slay those who teach just dealing with mankind, announce to them a grievous penalty.

22. They are those whose works will bear no fruit in this world and in the Hereafter nor will they have anyone to help.

 

 

Muslims consider true submission to God to include submission to Muhammad.

31 Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

32. Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger.: But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith.

 

 

 

Just like Christians believe that true faith is obeying God and His Son, Jesus Christ, Muslims believe that true submission or faith is obeying Allah and Muhammad. Muhammad is the Messenger here. In the Qur'an, you will find many verses where Muhammad is considered the Messenger to be obeyed. The Qur'an does not mean Jesus Christ in the command "Obey Allah and His Messenger" but rather Muhammad.

 

 

45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.

--- (Notice that Jesus was born on earth from Mary, and the ‘Word’ came down from God in heaven and indwelt her, and indwelt Jesus. --- And because the Word was in Jesus, He could speak through Jesus even when He was a baby)

46. "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

 

 

 

Interestingly, Muhammad said nothing about Jesus being on the throne of King David forever, which is what the Anointed One/Mashiach/Christ in question does:

 

 

But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

- Luke 1:30-33 (NIV)

 

One of the many reasons why many Jewish people rejected Yeshua (Jesus) as the Mashiach is because he did not physically reign and rescue the Jewish people from the Romans. However, when he returns, he will rescue the Jewish people from whoever their enemies happen to be at the time. (Jewish people sadly have a long list of enemies.)

 

He could be the descendant of anyone, wouldn't make a difference to Jesus or our faith in him and what he stood for. 

 

Salam/Shalom/Peace Repenter,

 

It actually does matter, cause Jesus could not be the Anointed One/Mashiach/Christ in question (on the throne of King David forever) if he was not a descendant of King David.

 

If God promised you that one of your sons would be on the throne forever, a person who is not of your bloodline could not fulfill that promise. Well, God gave King David a promise that one of his sons (descendants) would be on his throne forever: (I boldened some in the verses below.) 

 

Now therefore thus shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, even from following the sheep, that thou shouldest be ruler over my people Israel:  And I have been with thee whithersoever thou hast walked, and have cut off all thine enemies from before thee, and have made thee a name like the name of the great men that are in the earth.

 Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning,  And since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. Moreover I will subdue all thine enemies. Furthermore I tell thee that the LORD will build thee an house.

And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.

 I will be his father, and he shall be my son:

and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:

But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore."

- 1 Chronicles 17:7-14  http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/1Chron17.html

 

Peace and God bless you

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Hello again Placid,

 


47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
48. "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,
49. "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God’s leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God’s leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

 

 

 

Interestingly, the "Infancy Gospel of Thomas" has this story about Jesus creating the life of a bird out of clay. While it is possible that Jesus created bird life from clay, there are some appalling accounts in the "The Infancy Gospel of Thomas" that are contrary to Jesus' character, which is why followers of Jesus Christ consider this a fake gospel: (I boldened some.)

 

II. 1 This little child Jesus when he was five years old was playing at the ford of a brook: and he gathered together the waters that flowed there into pools, and made them straightway clean, and commanded them by his word alone. 2 And having made soft clay, he fashioned thereof twelve sparrows. And it was the Sabbath when he did these things (or made them). And there were also many other little children playing with him.

 

3 And a certain Jew when he saw what Jesus did, playing upon the Sabbath day, departed straightway and told his father Joseph: Lo, thy child is at the brook, and he hath taken clay and fashioned twelve little birds, and hath polluted the Sabbath day. 4 And Joseph came to the place and saw: and cried out to him, saying: Wherefore doest thou these things on the Sabbath, which it is not lawful to do? But Jesus clapped his hands together and cried out to the sparrows and said to them: Go! and the sparrows took their flight and went away chirping.

 

5 And when the Jews saw it they were amazed, and departed and told their chief men that which they had seen Jesus do.

III. 1 But the son of Annas the scribe was standing there with Joseph; and he took a branch of a willow and dispersed the waters which Jesus had gathered together. 2 And when Jesus saw what was done, he was wroth and said unto him: O evil, ungodly, and foolish one, what hurt did the pools and the waters do thee? behold, now also thou shalt be withered like a tree, and shalt not bear leaves, neither root, nor fruit. 3 And straightway that lad withered up wholly, but Jesus departed and went unto Joseph's house. But the parents of him that was withered took him up, bewailing his youth, and brought him to Joseph, and accused him 'for that thou hast such a child which doeth such deeds.'

 

IV. 1 After that again he went through the village, and a child ran and dashed against his shoulder. And Jesus was provoked and said unto him: Thou shalt not finish thy course (lit. go all thy way). And immediately he fell down and died. But certain when they saw what was done said: Whence was this young child born, for that every word of his is an accomplished work? And the parents of him that was dead came unto Joseph, and blamed him, saying: Thou that hast such a child canst not dwell with us in the village: or do thou teach him to bless and not to curse: for he slayeth our children.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/infancythomas-a-mrjames.html

Jesus Christ did not kill other children as a child. It is interesting that Muhammad mentioned the clay birds that is found in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, though. Another early Christian writing , the "Arabic Infancy Gospel of the Savior" also contain the clay bird miracle account, though it has a different age and details:

 

36. Now, when the Lord Jesus had completed seven years from His birth, on a certain day He was occupied with boys of His own age. For they were playing among clay, from which they were making images of asses, oxen, birds, and other animals; and each one boasting of his skill, was praising his own work. Then the Lord Jesus said to the boys: The images that I have made I will order to walk. The boys asked Him whether then he were the son of the Creator; and the Lord Jesus bade them walk. And they immediately began to leap; and then, when He had given them leave, they again stood still. And He had made figures of birds and sparrows, which flew when He told them to fly, and stood still when He told them to stand, and ate and drank when He handed them food and drink. After the boys had gone away and told this to their parents, their fathers said to them: My sons, take care not to keep company with him again, for he is a wizard: flee from him, therefore, and avoid him, and do not play with him again after this.

http://gnosis.org/library/infarab.htm

 

The Arabic Infancy Gospel of the Savior however clearly teaches that Jesus is the Son of God, and has him saying that in the cradle:

 

1. We find (1) what follows in the book of Joseph the high priest, who lived in the time of Christ. Some say that he is Caiaphas. (2) He has said that Jesus spoke, and, indeed, when He was lying in His cradle said to Mary His mother: I am Jesus, the Son of God, the Logos, whom thou hast brought forth, as the Angel Gabriel announced to thee; and my Father has sent me for the salvation of the world.

http://gnosis.org/library/infarab.htm

 

Personally, I do not believe that either the Infancy Gospel of Thomas or the Arabic Infancy Gospel of the Savior are true accounts, so while I agree that Jesus is the Son of God, I don't get that belief from the story that Jesus talked in the cradle. 

 

 

50. "'(I have come to you), to attest (confirm) the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51. "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"
52. When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God." Said the disciples: "We are God’s helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims (surrendered ones).
53. "Our Lord (God)! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger (Jesus). then write us down among those who bear witness."

 

Picktall doesn't say Muslims?

 

But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him). - 3:52 (Picktall)

 

55. Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.”56. "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

--- (Notice again this warning to unbelievers who reject Faith)
57. "As to those who believe and work righteousness, God will pay them (in full) their reward; but God loveth not those who do wrong."
58. "This is what we rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the Message of Wisdom."

 

 

Verse 57 goes against Jesus coming to save the lost. Why did God send Jesus to save the lost? John 3:16. If God did not love those who do wrong, He would not have sent Jesus to fulfill Isaiah 53.

 

--- This describes the life and ministry of Jesus through to the resurrection and ascension, where God said, “I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith.”

 

 

 

Those who follow Jesus Christ are not superior to anybody!!!! Followers of Jesus Christ are simply saved sinners, set apart under our Good Shepherd; we're not superior to those who reject Jesus at all!!!! :( :( :(

 

--- Isn’t this what we believe? --- Is this not the teaching of Jesus, in the Quran?

 

 

Where in the world does Jesus say that his followers are superior to other people???? :( We are his sheep, saved people who need God's salvation. We are not super humans, and neither were Jesus' apostles who walked and talked with him. Rather, they were inspired by the Holy Spirit who Jesus promised them (John chapters 14-16; Acts 2).

 

Peace and God bless you

 

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Greetings Christian Lady,

 

 

Picktall doesn't say Muslims?

 

The Quran in Arabic uses the word Muslims. That is why it is important to refer to the Original text. No one translation book is accurate.

 

But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him). - 3:52 (Picktall)

 

those who Surrender and Submit in Arabic is called Muslim

 

 

Peace and God bless you

 

Edited by tendersoul
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Hi, Christianlady,

I had said that you and the Muslims would both be disappointed with my answers, because they come from the Quran, which they don’t follow any more. --- So what you hear from them is what they have learned, --- I am not faulting them for what they have learned and believe, but my studies have been on what the Quran says.
Look again at Surah 19:
35 It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

--- This says, ‘It is not befitting,’ meaning ‘out of the ordinary’ (and below the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. --- But glory be to Him --- When He determines a matter, or DECIDES TO DO SOMETHING, He only says to it “BE!” --- AND IT IS.

In Genesis 1:3 God said, “Let there be Light, and there was Light.”

Notice the earlier verses in Surah 19:
19 He (the angel) said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.
20 She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?
21 He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.

--- Notice it says, --- "Make of Him a revelation," --- a 'revealing for mankind' --- and a 'mercy' (blessing, or good news) from Us (God) --- “And it is A THING ORDAINED.”

In the other verses in Surah 3 it says this:
45 (And remember) when the angel said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).

How much different is that from Luke 1? ---
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

--- (The difference is the mention of the Holy Spirit. However it says this in other places):
2:87 And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy Spirit.
2:253 Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others, and of whom there are some unto whom Allah spake, while some of them He exalted (above others) in degree; and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) and We supported him with the Holy Spirit.

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Hi Christianlady,

Quote: Those who follow Jesus Christ are not superior to anybody!!!!

I see you get quite excited over a verse that you haven’t quite read properly.

--- I said, quote:--- This describes the life and ministry of Jesus through to the resurrection and ascension, where God said, “I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith.”
--- It says that Christians will be chosen above THOSE WHO REJECT FAITH.

55 Pickthall: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection.

This mentions the ascension of Jesus and the promise that believers in Jesus will be saved, --- notice the next verse in Surah 3:
56 As for those who disbelieve I shall chastise them with a heavy chastisement in the world and the Hereafter; and they will have no helpers.
--- Read these verses over a few times and see what it is saying. --- What does it say about Muslims that do not follow Jesus?

--- Also, the word Muslim simply means ‘a surrendered one.’---Tho to some it has come to mean more.

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Hi, Christianlady,

I had said that you and the Muslims would both be disappointed with my answers, because they come from the Quran, which they don’t follow any more. --- So what you hear from them is what they have learned, --- I am not faulting them for what they have learned and believe, but my studies have been on what the Quran says.

Look again at

 

CORRECTION, your studies without knowing Arabic even abit, is full of faults.

 

Surah 19:

35 It is not befitting It is not for God to have/to take a son  (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! Pure/clear is he from such ! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

--- This says, ‘It is not befitting,’ meaning ‘out of the ordinary’ (and below the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. --- But glory be to Him --- When He determines a matter, or DECIDES TO DO SOMETHING, He only says to it “BE!” --- AND IT IS.

 

Hello Placid,

 

Can you read Arabic?  The word Glory to be, is translated Wrongly in most translations.

 

English is a very limited language in comparison to Arabic. The language second closest to Arabic is Farsi.

 

In most farsi Translations the translations for Subhan is used as Pure from/clear/clean from.

 

But in English most translators unfortunately use the word Glory.

 

As most translators are either clueless about Islam, or do not have a proper understanding of the religion.

 

The word in Arabic is Subhan.

 

Subhan DOES NOT MEAN GLORY. SUBHAN means clear from, pure from.

 

Really , I am very upset, not so with you but with all those stupid translators !

 

Cross checking English translations with each other is USELESS, you have to cross check it with the original Arabic script.

 

If you cannot do that it is best not making your own interpretations of the Quran, without being able to do so.

 

I agree most people do not know their religion, including those of Muslim faith.

 

But to use the Quranic erred translations, without having the knowledge whether it is correct translations or erred,  and trying  to prove your point  thru erroneous  translations is dangerous to do so

 

 

We repeat this is in our prayer 5 times a day! SUBHAN in our prayer means,

To clear our thoughts of what we think who God is, because our Limited minds CANNOT COMPREHEND GOD.

So we ask him in our prayer to give us the gift of knowing him thru himself. Not thru what I think who and what God is.

So every time, I think I know who God is , and have comprehend him,

I have to say SUBHAN, so God can give me new understanding about who he is according to my mental capacity in each prayer HIMSELF.

 

So to ALL who cannot even read Arabic, Kindly, stop interpreting the Quran, when you cannot even read or understand Arabic, even a bit.

 

So the Exact Translation for the Surah is as below :

 

***It is not for God to have/to take a son. He is pure/clear from such. If he determines a matter, he says be and it is.***

 

Another verse with Be and it is :

 

Quran

 

His command, when He wills a thing, is to say to it, “Be,” and it comes to be. (36:82)

 

Purity from all, is to him,( he is pure from/clear from all) in whose hands is the dominion of everything, and to Him you will be returned. (36:83)

 

 

It is He who gives life and death; and when He decides on a thing, He just says to it, “Be,” and it comes to be.

 

So according to your analogy even a cow can be God's son or daughter by just adding the word Glory, instead of pure is he/clear is he from!

Edited by tendersoul
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Interestingly, verse 3 confirms the Gospel of Jesus, but it seems that some Muslims think Jesus wrote a book which his followers lost or corrupted. However, followers of Jesus understand that Jesus is the Word of God and the Gospel (good news) is what Jesus preached and did for us!  God preserved their testimony for posterity in the 4 Gospel accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

 

 

Muslims consider true submission to God to include submission to Muhammad.

 

 

Just like Christians believe that true faith is obeying God and His Son, Jesus Christ, Muslims believe that true submission or faith is obeying Allah and Muhammad. Muhammad is the Messenger here. In the Qur'an, you will find many verses where Muhammad is considered the Messenger to be obeyed. The Qur'an does not mean Jesus Christ in the command "Obey Allah and His Messenger" but rather Muhammad.

 

 

 

 

Interestingly, Muhammad said nothing about Jesus being on the throne of King David forever, which is what the Anointed One/Mashiach/Christ in question does:

 

 

But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

- Luke 1:30-33 (NIV)

 

One of the many reasons why many Jewish people rejected Yeshua (Jesus) as the Mashiach is because he did not physically reign and rescue the Jewish people from the Romans. However, when he returns, he will rescue the Jewish people from whoever their enemies happen to be at the time. (Jewish people sadly have a long list of enemies.)

 

 

Salam/Shalom/Peace Repenter,

 

It actually does matter, cause Jesus could not be the Anointed One/Mashiach/Christ in question (on the throne of King David forever) if he was not a descendant of King David.

 

If God promised you that one of your sons would be on the throne forever, a person who is not of your bloodline could not fulfill that promise. Well, God gave King David a promise that one of his sons (descendants) would be on his throne forever: (I boldened some in the verses below.) 

 

Now therefore thus shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, even from following the sheep, that thou shouldest be ruler over my people Israel:  And I have been with thee whithersoever thou hast walked, and have cut off all thine enemies from before thee, and have made thee a name like the name of the great men that are in the earth.

 Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning,  And since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. Moreover I will subdue all thine enemies. Furthermore I tell thee that the LORD will build thee an house.

And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.

 I will be his father, and he shall be my son:

and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:

But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore."

- 1 Chronicles 17:7-14  http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/1Chron17.html

 

Peace and God bless you

 

 

 

It actually doesn't matter to muslims, because non of the stuff you just mentioned is regarded as truth to muslims, so it doesn't matter. 

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