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In the Name of God بسم الله

The Anti-Sunni Sentiment On These Boards

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O God,
this station belongs to Thy vicegerents, Thy chosen,
while the places of Thy trusted ones
in the elevated degree which Thou hast singled out for them
have been forcibly stripped!254
But Thou art the Ordainer of that -
Thy command is not overcome,
the inevitable in Thy governing is not overstepped!
However Thou willest and whenever Thou willest!
In that which Thou knowest best,
Thou art not accused for Thy creation or Thy will!
Then Thy selected friends, Thy vicegerents,
were overcome, vanquished, forcibly stripped;
they see Thy decree replaced,
Thy Book discarded,
Thy obligations distorted from the aims of Thy laws,
and the Sunna of Thy Prophet abandoned! 

O God,
curse their enemies among those of old and the later folk,
and all those pleased with their acts,
and their supporters and followers! 

O God,
bless Muhammad and the Household of Muhammad
(surely Thou art All-laudable, All-glorious)
like Thy blessing, benedictions, and salutations
upon Thy chosen Abraham and the family of Abraham!
And hasten for them relief,
ease,
help,
strengthening,
and confirmation! 

 

(From Saheefa Sajadiya)

 

So this is from Imam Zainal Abideen [as]

 

We see similarly in Quran those who disbelieved from Bani-Israel were cursed on the tongues of Isa and Dawood.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight
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^Brother, I don't think anyone here is denying that we are not allowed to curse those deserving to be cursed...Ziyarat Ashura is a clear indication of that. 

 

However, if you were trying to make a link between the above and openly cursing Sunni figures/caliphs, please see the following rulings...

Thanks.

 

Sayyid Sistani's Fatwa about the Prophet (S.A.W.A.)'s Companions

The Question:

as-Salamu Alykum wa rahmatu Allah wa barakatuhu,

A video clip has been seen several times on social network web sites showing a congregation during the martyrdom of al-Imam al-Jawad (a.s.). This group of people from the area known as al-A'dhamiyyah are shown shouting out insults upon 'Omar, A’isha, and others. Is this type of behavior condemned by the supreme religious authority, especially since it involves the insult of religious figures of our brothers of the Sunni school of thought, and it could potentially fuel unrest amongst the people of Iraq and jeopardize peace?

The Answer:

In The Name of Allah, The Beneficent, The Merciful

This type of behavior is condemned, strongly denounced and contrary to the commands of the Imams of the Holy Household of the Prophet (s.a.w.a.) to their followers. Allah is The Guide.

Source: http://www.imam-us.org/fatwa/companions

 

Sayed Khamanei in Iran's statement

“Desecrating the religious dignitaries of Sunni brothers, including accusations to the wife of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), is haram (unlawful),"

And Sayed Fadlullah answering an interview question:

"Q: What is your stand regarding the issue of cursing and slandering the companions, including Abu Bakr, Omar and Aisha?

A: Personally, I forbid the act of slandering and cursing any companion whom
Allah
had mentioned in the following Ayah: "Muhammad is the Messenger of
Allah
, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing down, prostrating themselves, seeking grace from
Allah
and pleasure," (48:29), at a time we set aside the issue of the Imamate and Caliphate, for which we have other considerations. As for the issue of cursing, I have always deemed it forbidden for any Muslim, and I state in all the relevant religious inquiries I receive that it is forbidden to curse and slander any companion including the Caliphs.

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I think what the OP is trying to convey is that we as Shias should try to minimize the damage done to Islam by some so-called Muslims and the media by trying to better ourselves and be more accepting of others, especially the Sunni brothers and sisters. That's why the post mainly focuses on the 'flaws' of the Shias and how they can address this in order to pave the path for Shia-Sunni unity.

Edited by IamHussaini
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^I think we're all more or less on the same page. I mean I'm Shia too; the things that you described above hurt me too; I'm not blind to the massacres that are taking place; the events that were staged out at tragedy at Mina this Hajj season has left me in a state of grief...

 

But that's not the point....Because not I, nor the OP, nor anyone else advocating for "unity" is speaking on their personal behalf.

 

Can we all agree that as Shia--at least we need to be united behind our Marja?

(if not...then...no comment )

 

If yes, then this is what Ayatollah Sistani has stated:

 

“Shiites should defend Sunnis’ social and political rights before defending their own rights, and we call [everyone] for unity, “As I have said before, Shiites should not call Sunnis their brethren, but their ‘souls.’

 

Who do you think of as being a part of your soul? I think of my closest family members--people who are irreplaceable in my life...

 

Our Marja is giving us a code for conduct--and that's all we're trying to get across. I'm surprised that some people ignoring this...

 

If we can't listen to a Marja's instructions, how do you expect the Imam of our Time to trust us? We need to prepare for His ( aj ) arrival; let's at least show him that we have the capability to listen to his representatives.

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You said it, succinctly and precisely.

 

What we need is peaceful coexistence where every school is able to practice their faith without fear. We don't need what is called 'unity'. And besides I don't understand how could anyone seek 'unity' in matters of faith/religion unless to de-emphasize crucial differences.  Yes, we should seek common ground as much as we can but  part ways respectfully when it's not possible; yes, we can have national unity in which both Sunnis and Shias combine their effort for a common cause; we can seek political unity against common enemies; we may have unity on other social causes. All good, but at the end of the day please don't sell me the fiction of Islamic unity as an achievable goal. It's not. There has never been unity since the day of Saqifa, there was none during the times of Umayyad and Abbasid; there was no unity in the gunpowder empires of Safavids, Ottomans and the Mughals; there was no unity during the colonial times; and there is no unity today. There never will be.

 

Needless to say that the rejection comes from the arrogant Sunni quarters who are too confident of their majority. We have been shouting UNITY, UNITY! at the top of our voices for so long, but the world Sunnism does not listen. Yes, there are good `ulemas and good normal people who want good relations and follow the live-and-liet-live policy. I admire and accept the efforts of such Sunnis. But there are too many who reject us as deviant rafidis worthy of all sorts of terrible things. So unless Sunnis fix their own problem, I as a Shia cannot be expected to seek 'unity.' Sure, I will respect their religious sentiments when it comes to their caliphs and other revered figures, as I won't badmouth them, abuse them, curse them by name etc. But I can't stand to deliver a speech praising their virtues. Unless I do that, I don't think conservative Sunnis are willing to seek 'unity' with me.

 

There is another long-standing, deep-seated problem with Sunni-Shia power relations. For centuries past Shias have not have any political power anywhere. Even in Iran where Shias are in majority, political power for at least a century or more was concentrated in a secular king who was antagonistic to religion. It is first time after many centuries that Shias have been able to gain political power relative to their numbers in Iran, Iraq, part of Lebanon etc. This threatens Sunnis because they are used to being the rulers of everyone. Unless Sunnis can adopt a pluralistic mindset in social and political terms, the 'unity' will remain a figment of the dreamers' imagination.

 

So eloquently put and so bang on!!

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^I think we're all more or less on the same page. I mean I'm Shia too; the things that you described above hurt me too; I'm not blind to the massacres that are taking place; the events that were staged out at tragedy at Mina this Hajj season has left me in a state of grief...

 

But that's not the point....Because not I, nor the OP, nor anyone else advocating for "unity" is speaking on their personal behalf.

 

Can we all agree that as Shia--at least we need to be united behind our Marja?

(if not...then...no comment )

 

If yes, then this is what Ayatollah Sistani has stated:

 

“Shiites should defend Sunnis’ social and political rights before defending their own rights, and we call [everyone] for unity, “As I have said before, Shiites should not call Sunnis their brethren, but their ‘souls.’

 

Who do you think of as being a part of your soul? I think of my closest family members--people who are irreplaceable in my life...

 

Our Marja is giving us a code for conduct--and that's all we're trying to get across. I'm surprised that some people ignoring this...

 

If we can't listen to a Marja's instructions, how do you expect the Imam of our Time to trust us? We need to prepare for His ( aj ) arrival; let's at least show him that we have the capability to listen to his representatives.

 

From my experience with Sunnis, majority are actually very well acquainted with proofs of Wilayah of Ahlulbayt like wage verses, thaqalain and Ali Mawla hadith, even though Sunni scholars do their best to keep people ignorant. 

 

That said, even if they aren't aware, Quran is suppose to bring insights, and blindness to it despite it's clear signs, may or may not be forgiven, depending if someone is purposely blind to it as it denies what is manifest to him from it.

 

Case in point, a lot of Sunnis very well know why God emphasized on the chosen families in Quran. This is just one example. Some of them then try to say "family" means "believers" that are of the same blood of the Prophet. They go out of their way to down play the exalted chosen above meaning, into a different type choosing. This is despite God saying he chose Adam and Nuh before that, which is to emphasize that they are chosen in the same way Nuh is chosen.

 

In my view, in this day and age, Sunnis are willfully ignorant. They come across proofs, and their hearts are whispered from Satan "don\'t think about other then what I suggest to you it means" and that's what they do. And when they come across the clear signs that is the true meaning, they turn away from it and belittle it as "mutashibiha" even if it's clear with respect to other parts of Quran and with the flow of Quran.

 

Aside from that, it's the eternal rational of Suratal Fatiha that designates Ahlulbayt and shows the wisdom of Prophets and in particular the best of the best people being Guides in sealing the religion. It's a silent argument but none the less, it shows pure rationally humans acknowledge facts that should lead them to God and his chosen ones.

 

The question is, did Imams [a] makes excuses for majority of people? No. If we see hadiths, it's true some people are excused, but it's quite a different thing to say majority ought to not know the truth.

 

In some countries, I understand ignorance. In some countries, people are well informed and have access to research the different interpretations of Quran.

 

That said, the Taghut is always get's support from the Jibt on the hearts, and it's an evil whispering, an evil suggestion, and evil casting upon the hearts, that can be avoided by the word of taqwa and faith.

 

The Imams over all cursed all those who support the enemies of Ahlulbayt from the beginning and latter people. 

 

I have a question for you, what reason would he have to think this excludes Abu Baker and Umar? That supporting them is ok? 

 

Most Sunnis are very well aware there was controversy between Fatima and Abu Baker. Why do they chose Abu Baker's side?

 

I think we have to take a step back and realize,  they love their sect and hence envy the status of Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain, and the 9 Imams from the offspring of Hussain out of love of their leaders, to the extent they are vehemently opposed to accepting them despite their being clear proofs in Quran and Sunnah.

 

Does the Quran allow blindness in midst of a hearing his clear signs? This is the question. 

 

Had the Quran not been there, had it's warning and advice not been there, and had the Prophet not emphasized on the true interpretation of Wilayah in there, on the day of ghadeer and made sure it the message would become clear to the masses, then I would understand blindness and denial.

 

But here the Imam curses all supporters of their enemies because over all they are without excuse. That means the hadiths that made exceptions to some supporters of their enemies, ought to be understand as an exception, and not the general rule.

 

The general rule is that there is no excuse for people to disbelief and differ with the clear proofs, in the same way Bani-Israel were given clear proofs of the affair of religion (Wilayah).

 

I don't know why we want to be unified with people Imams themselves cursed.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight
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^And Ayatollah Sistani isn't aware of all the above? 

How about Ayatollah Khamenei? 

Imam Khomeini?

 

I don't think their perspective is in line with it except with regards to Imam Khomeini, he seemed to be with it, as can be seen with his words in Adab As-Salah and forty hadiths about those who disbelieve in Wilayah of Imams. I'm not sure what to make about the supposed sayings of his that contradict that. He himself said not to trust any thing attributed to him unless it has his signature in his last Wasiyah. Do those things about unity have his signature?

 

 

Let's step back and learn from the morals of Imam Sadegh Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. 

 

This is why I posted a Du'a of Imam Sajjad [a]. It's verified by Quran, when those who disbelieved were cursed on the tongues of Isa [a] and Dawood [a]..

 

Dawood [a] ruled the people yet cursed those who disbelieved among them. Isa [a] faced a majority who disbelieved in him despite clear proofs. He didn't tell his followers to unite with them, but to help God's cause against their enemies and he cursed them.

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Speaking for myself, I am not willing today nor ever will be inshallah, to extend a gesture of goodwill to the people who don't mourn the martyrdom of Hussain(a.s), who don't believe Abu Baker and Omar usurped Hazrat Fatima (a.s) and our first Imam (a.s) of their right.

It saddens me to see us at conflict with each other over this matter. Maybe it would clear things up a bit if we mutually agree upon a definition of 'sunni' because I believe this might be the root of the problem.

In my whole circle of friends comprising of some Shias, some calling themselves Sunnis but wahabbi by their actions there is this one friend whom I would be happy to call a Sunni. She doesn't say bad things about the first three caliphs but when their names come up doesn't rush to their obligatory defense nor sings praises of them either. She doesn't attend majalis or does matam like we Shias do but does openly condemn Yazid and says that Imam Hussain (a.s) sacrificed himself and his family purely for Islam. I have great respect for her. But like I said earlier in the whole bunch of friends I have from my childhood till now she is the only one, the odd one.

I think this gives us a pretty accurate picture of the actual demographics and not what's portrayed. If we look closely there are maybe less than 1% of 'sunnis' . The rest are either wahabbis, pro Saudis,salafis hiding under the cover of sunnism all of whom will not mind stabbing a shia and earn an easy ticket to jannah. Some others are plain ignorant people whose care neither about Hussain (a.s) nor about Yazid and have chosen to spend their lives enjoying the pleasures of this mortal world. Any real or supposed unity with them isn't going to get us any benefits either.

So if we have decided to follow Ayatullahs over this at least we should keep our minds open and educate ourselves about who Sunnis really are.

Is it possible that wahabbis hiding under he cover of Sunnis might be taking advantage of this staunch stance some Shias take over shia- Sunni unity and use this to enter our quarters and cause harm to us??

Has no Ayatullah ever said anything about being vigilant around people who might bring harm to us, Shias?

Long post, time for fajr :)

Edited by starlight
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^Dear brothers and sisters...

 

Firstly, we're talking about a worldview...not our own circle of friends, acquaintances, or community that we happen to live in. I could be living in Wahhabi land (God Forbid); doesn't matter...because we're talking about an entire Ummah and worldview here. Islamophobia doesn't recognize "Sunni" or "Shia". Please realize that there's a depth to this matter that may not be readily apparent to you on an individual level. 

 

 

If someone gets to the point where they think they have more insight than Mujtahids, than an Imam who led a Revolution and shook the world by the Grace of Allah, and The Rahbar...Subhanallah...what can I say? There isn't anything left for me to say

 

If anything, we have an Army General, leading a Shia Army head-on with those enemies that you mentioned, Sister Starlight... if anything, Sayyed Nasrallah should be the one talking...

 

 

I don't think their perspective is in line with it except with regards to Imam Khomeini, he seemed to be with it, as can be seen with his words in Adab As-Salah and forty hadiths about those who disbelieve in Wilayah of Imams. I'm not sure what to make about the supposed sayings of his that contradict that. He himself said not to trust any thing attributed to him unless it has his signature in his last Wasiyah. Do those things about unity have his signature?

 

 

^If you don't think you're in line with what  Mujtahids are saying....I would take that as a Hint

 

As your humble sister, I implore everyone to watch the following clip (@StrugglingForLight...includes IMAM KHOMEINI ra)

 

 

 

 

And that's all I can say on this topic. Ya Ali. 

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Since when did fallible leaders become the ultimate proofs for religion? 

 

Imam Sajjad [a] cursed them, and we are suppose to unite with them? For what? So they can betray us with their hate towards God's light and his chosen ones like they always do. What do you want? Unity with them with their Caliphate system back with one leader leading the Umma so they can oppress us? 

 

People talk about divisions in nationalism as if it's a bad thing. Thank God our countries got divided into national states instead of this monster Caliphate system of the past which most Sunnis want a return to.

 

They see our blood as cheap. That's reality. It's always been like that and continues to be like that.

 

Where are they at condemning Saudi crimes in Yemen? That's right, no where, rather the opposite, they praise them. They will oppress you if they get the chance as they always have been oppressing us.

 

I rather live under the rule of a Jew or a Christian or an Atheist than a Sunni any day any time.

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Unity:  the state of being united or joined as a whole

 

I do not see why this is not possible. Unity does not necessarily mean mutual agreement in terms of ideology. For example, interfaith unions do not attempt to homogenize the beliefs of various faiths; they attempt to seek common ground among similarities that the groups share, i.e. belief in a Higher Power. Seeing as we are both Muslim, naturally we share a lot of core beliefs. We share the five pillars of Islam; which is the fundamental core beliefs. We differ on terms of the legitimacy of rule, that is, who should guide the Muslim Ummah. Surely we can come together based on our love for Allah swt and Muhammad pbuh.

 

Go mention that to a Salafi/Wahabi and see what kind of response you get.

 

Its not us (Shia) preventing peace between the sects, its them (Extremist Sunni and the mute Moderate Sunni).

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Come on..... Why did you all have to express all those truths? Any of you not submitting to this idea of unity (granted that its absurd) if you were also nominated for the mod elections then now you can say goodbye to the chance of getting elected. Because by expressing your views you definitely got labelled of:

 

(1) Disrespecting a certain scholar who was a big proponent of this type of unity, and

(2) Disrespting people of non-Shia beliefs.

 

Your replies could have waited until after the selection. =/

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Come on..... Why did you all have to express all those truths? Any of you not submitting to this idea of unity (granted that its absurd) if you were also nominated for the mod elections then now you can say goodbye to the chance of getting elected. Because by expressing your views you definitely got labelled of:

 

(1) Disrespecting a certain scholar who was a big proponent of this type of unity, and

(2) Disrespting people of non-Shia beliefs.

 

Your replies could have waited until after the selection. =/

Make yourself a candidate. I will elect you.

Edited by Iskandarovich
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  • Forum Administrators
 

 

Come on..... Why did you all have to express all those truths? Any of you not submitting to this idea of unity (granted that its absurd) if you were also nominated for the mod elections then now you can say goodbye to the chance of getting elected. Because by expressing your views you definitely got labelled of:

 

(1) Disrespecting a certain scholar who was a big proponent of this type of unity, and

(2) Disrespting people of non-Shia beliefs.

 

Your replies could have waited until after the selection. =/

 

Shrewd observation and one that reflects the reality of being a Moderator, in the sense of making the trenchant more moderate.

 

Can everyone please tone it down a little. Thanks.

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While I don't say other members are necessarily wrong, I agree with everything/almost everything sister Sumayyeh stated here. Her moderate comments together cover the issue precisely and answer questions like "why is unity necessary?" and "what does unity mean?" and also the things that may come in mind regarding issues like "unity and tabarra from Ahlulbayt's enemies", "unity and Shias beliefs such as Imam Ali's welayat importance" and "if unity will contradict our belies". So there is no need to repeat them.

 

Just some points here:

 

To those who object OP by saying things like: Most of the causes of disunity are made by Sunni's:

 

1. Clearly Shias have been and are much more for unity, although they have been oppressed. But here is a Shia site and most majority of the members are Shia. So we should address our own issues and duties here, even though we are very small part of the problem.

 

2.  We shouldn't give the extremist pretext to harm Shias. What we can't achieve through unity we can't achieve through disunity. Disunity can make a friend Sunni a neutral one and a neutral Sunni an antagonist, while unity can bring about the opposite results.

 

 --------------------

On another note and as for achievements of unity so far:

 

If we see the whole picture, we will notice that efforts for unity haven't been futile. For example, if you know of Iran and events happened after Islamic Revolution's victory, you will testify that Sunni's have protected and supported Islamic Republic and many of them have sacrificed in this path. Just take a look at the pictures in the link below to see how these Sunni people support Islamic Revolution's Leader who is a Shia:

 

http://harfhayejavani.parsiblog.com/category/%D8%B3%D9%81%D8%B1+%D9%85%D9%82%D8%A7%D9%85+%D9%85%D8%B9%D8%B8%D9%85+%D8%B1%D9%87%D8%A8%D8%B1%D9%8A+%D8%A8%D9%87+%D9%83%D8%B1%D8%AF%D8%B3%D8%AA%D8%A7%D9%86/

 

Isn't it a great achievement?

 

Another example is in Iraq. Many of the warriors who are fighting alongside Shias and against terrorists are Sunni's. Isn't this kind of event due to the efforts by wise ulama like Ayatollah Sistani? Isn't it an achievement of efforts for strengthening the unity?

 

Surely unity has had achievements and if we try more, it will have more, although it's not easy and there are many plots against it.

 

To OP:

 

Brother, please try to use better titles for the topics. They may misrepresent members and Shias. As far as I know, almost all members are respectful towards other people from other sects and religions.

 

The same goes for this title: Shia's brace yourself. The Practice you criticized is being done by just a few individuals, but the title may imply something else.

 

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Salam

 

The following is simple logic.

 

1) God says not to take those who his wrath is upon as friends, a people who his wrath is upon.

2) In the past, Bani-Israel were entrusted to following and supports God's Prophets and chosen ones.

3) Those who disbelieved in Prophets despite clear proofs, earned God's wrath.

4) When Mohammad came with clear proofs, they envied him and his family, and earned God's wrath.

5) The verses stating God only forbid those who fought the Nabi and believers, in light of this, is seen that those who hated God's light and envied chosen ones were that unjust, that due to clear proofs entering their hearts, that they resorted to violence instead of submission to God's path.

6) The affair of religion in bani-Israel is an example and is similar to that of this nation, with respect to the Imams.

7) The Quran states no one will enter hell fire except the most wretched but we see emphasis on those who disbelieve in God's Ayat being promised hell fire, in context of obeying Ulil-Amr and comparing them to the family of Ibrahim .

8) The message of Ghadeer is clear balagha of Wilayah of Ali, and hence disbelief in it, is without excuse to all those aware of the message.

9) The wage verses, the Ulil-Amr, etc, all are proofs, and coupled with reason Sunnis are without excuse, and the book of God stands as a proof.

10) People unaware of differences are the only people considered mustafaeen per some hadiths, being aware of the differences of interpretation of hadiths and Quran should make people realize the true one and incline to the one confirmed by reason/the light in humanity.

11) The covenant of God being broken and breaking it from reaching people, and hiding clear proofs after it's been shown to people, is not something I take lightly, and just as 'different school of thought'.

12) The wrath of God upon bani-Israel was because there were clear proofs among them, but they turned away from it, the clear proofs for Wilayah of Imams has not been extinguished and is even perhaps today more clear to the masses then it ever was.

13) Imam Sajjad [a] in Saheefa Sajadiya, cursed those who support the enemies of Ahlulbayt, then exception of the mustafeen, is an exception, hence, not the general rule where supporting the enemies of Ahlulbayt is without excuse.

 

 

 

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Most of the hostility that you see is because of the Sunni Arrogance. The Sunnis keep on insisting that they know the Shias better than the Shias themselves. The Sunnis have the habit of throwing around unsubstantiated rumors. The Sunnis are also on friendly terms wth their takfiri brothers, I simply cannot reason with them..and I know for a fact that the Sunnis are not bad people, at least most of them.

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  • 1 year later...
  • Advanced Member

Few days ago it was 'hafta e wahdat' (unity week) and guess what none of my sunni friends knew what is it. Are they suppose to celebrate such an event.? It were shias jumping on social sites patting their back and screaming for unity. One sided affair? 

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2 hours ago, Lover of Ahlulbait (ams) said:

Few days ago it was 'hafta e wahdat' (unity week) and guess what none of my sunni friends knew what is it. Are they suppose to celebrate such an event.? It were shias jumping on social sites patting their back and screaming for unity. One sided affair? 

Why would the majority (Sunnis) want unity with the minority? What purpose would the minority serve to the majority? 

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