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Hameedeh

Bizarre Ashoura Ritual Infiltrations

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Let's campaign against muta since the Sunnis see that as prostitution. Let's also campaign against taqiyya since they see that as cowardice and hypocrisy. Let's campaign against sending la'nah since we should respect figures of other religions. Crying is bid'ah. Chest beating is bid'ah. Doing ziyarah and praying next to the burial places is shirk. Intercession is shirk. Etc etc

 

Salam,

 

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you.

I just wanted to say that muta, taqiya, lanah, intercession etc, are all in the Quran. So no matter what others think of it, we cannot go against what the Quran has deemed lawful for us. In contrast, tatbir, crawling in chains and whatever has been shown above, cannot even be found in sunnah of RasulAllah(saww) and the Imams(as), let alone the Quran. Hence, we shias must not things which our imams have never told us to do.

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Temporary Marriage is permissible in Islam, stated in the Quran, and there are clear Hadith about it.

Are you going to be lame? If yes, then I urge you at least not to argue with ways that make you look you don't know what you're talking about.

 

Maybe you don't realise but its not about Sunnis. Its about what Islam is and whats not Islam. Its about following teachings of Ahlul Bayt, and following traditions of non-maasoumeen.

Temporary marriage isn't the only shia sunni disputed issue that i mentioned.

If it's not about Sunnis then why this comment below?

There is something called Youtube and Google where anyone around the world can find them and ridicule us. It is better we expose them and disown idiotic actions, so Sunnis can actually see that we are against them.

Finally, no one is stopping you from following the version of Islam that you want to follow. Likewise I'm sure no one is forcing you to follow another version either that consists of tatbir. So i don't know why you're feeling so inclined into forcing people to do what you agree and disagree with. Just like me, you are a no body. And the beauty is we can agree to disagree with each other, can't we. But that doesn't mean bashing one another in a public lobby, certainly that isn't the way of the Ahlul Bayt (as) that you fondly speak of.

Fi Amanillah

Salam,

 

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you.

I just wanted to say that muta, taqiya, lanah, intercession etc, are all in the Quran. So no matter what others think of it, we cannot go against what the Quran has deemed lawful for us. In contrast, tatbir, crawling in chains and whatever has been shown above, cannot even be found in sunnah of RasulAllah(saww) and the Imams(as), let alone the Quran. Hence, we shias must not things which our imams have never told us to do.

Walekum Assalaam,

What about erecting grand shrines over the burial places made out of real gold. Perhaps we should've fed and sheltered the poor with all that money, no?

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And just to let everyone know, it's a lose/lose situation, and the damage has already been done. 

 

Even if all these practices stopped today and forever (which it won't), these pictures will continue to circulate around the internet, will continue to be used for propaganda, and will be cited as "authentic" Shiism. 

 

If it's abandoned, liberals will call it "modernization", Sunnis will call it "taqiyya", and so on...and with the implicit notion that this IS the real Shia religion, but had to be changed due to modern or humanitarian pressures, thus casting Shiism with all other cultures and religions as a barbaric and archaic idiosyncrasy of the human race. 

 

Imam Hussein had a truly precise and long term vision.  These fools who claim his banner certainly do not. 

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I think it is pointless arguing over this, as we do every year. The fact remains, blood-letting isn't going anywhere. You can either respect and understand another's method of commemorating Ashura, or you can carry on wasting time arguing about it. Funny thing is, I have never seen threads here of pro-blood-letters coming here and bashing the non-blood-letters. It's always the other way around.

 

I'll take a leave from this discussion but with this narration:

 

Imam Sadiq [as] said "Everything is unrestricted until a prohibition is given on it."

 

So until you guys don't come forth with an explicit prohibition in blood-letting, then I think you're wasting time arguing. The usual argument of "ruining Islam's image" is getting real old now.

 

Ridiculing Islam is prohibited, barking like a dog and acting like an idiot is prohibited in Islam, acting outside of urf, specially Islamic urf is prohibited, doing things that make Islam look bad is prohibited, making the general sane people of the non islamic world grow a distaste of islam is prohibited..................i can go all day.

 

So throwing around a hadith........as i mentioned earlier, without understanding it doesn't work anymore. People actually do have brains.

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@ brothers and sisters seeking for maraja's fatwa against these actions,

 

Maraja are not supposed to say what is haram and what isn't in form of masdaiq (examples), but they deem things haram/halal through hukms (rulings). For example maraja should define the ruling whether a barrier between water and hand during the wouzu will make it invalid or not, but it's not the duty of a marja to define whether pen's ink is a barrier or not. They may add this to their ruling and make the case easier for the followers, but it's not considered as a necessity for a maraja to do so.

 

In this case, maraja (according to the link below that has been posted on various threads) have defined the ruling:

 

http://tatbir.org/?page_id=98

 

Some of them directly named the action and regarded it as haram, but it doesn't mean others who haven't done so consider it halal. It can be simply understood that other maraja who haven't deemed it haram by name have it through their general ruling, such as the one below:

 

“If blood matam and hitting oneself with chains, which are practiced in Muharram, cause serious harm, or harm or ridicule the religion and sect then it is impermissible.

 

Everyone can easily understand that the ruling above is stating that tatbir and actions like that are haram, even though it hasn't used the word tatbir in it. There is no difference between 2+2 and 4. Why are we making the issue hard?

 

 

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If you guys think that our prophets and Imams peace be upon them, spreaded Islam in this way. Then I don't know what to say.

Really???? Are we not supposed to be role models for those who seek for the truth?

You think they see peaceful and guided people when they see us hit ourselves til we bleed? And do that on our children???? Only to later bark like dogs......

I ask for guidance for all of us.

Edited by ultra

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These dehumanizing rituals of the "lion shiite", acting like dogs, blood letting, are a mockery. This is not how you honor and mourn Imam Hussain.

I'm a Christian, this is no different than Protestants reenacting the crucifixion which makes me sick. And even I can see this is not Islam and not true Shi'a Islam. Inshallah, Shias can end these practices.

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^ unless you are talking about the Passion Plays in Germany and such, which are only plays and no one is really nailed to anything...Catholics are doing the real crucifying in The Philippines,etc.

I said reenacting, not actual crucifixion so please don't make assumptions.

Things like this -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/11514158/Reenacting-the-crucifixion-In-pictures.html?image=1

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Like you, it's not my cup of tea either way...but I said Passion Plays ( reenactments) , which this is. No one is getting hurt here,so not quite the same thing. People are getting actually pierced in the Catholic events, which is sort of the same thing as the Shia are talking about. In our case, the Church discourages it. How do you know these are Protestants, btw? Is it done by a particular church? Just curious. Seems odd for England?

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Though iam a sunni, but i would like to say: dont hurt yourselves and small children by knives and swords or by hitting chests, or even dont act like animals or walk on burning coals ! Instead feel the pain deeply and fast on ashura to feel the thirst, and then remember Hussain r.a and weep only one or two real emotional tears, as said by yours imams, even if you are alone at home, or in majlis ! To be frank majlises have becamed useless nobody cares to mourn, it seems like someone is visiting there as if its a duty and many guys used to be busy in other activities outside majlis. Just a friendly advice for what i had seen & observed, no regrets plz, it may happen that i maybe unaware of your aqidah & said wrong.

M|s

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Like you, it's not my cup of tea either way...but I said Passion Plays ( reenactments) , which this is. No one is getting hurt here,so not quite the same thing. People are getting actually pierced in the Catholic events, which is sort of the same thing as the Shia are talking about. In our case, the Church discourages it. How do you know these are Protestants, btw? Is it done by a particular church? Just curious. Seems odd for England?

Your Catholic on a Shia Muslim forum?

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Its not Arabic no. Barking like dogs started in Iran around 10 years ago.

 

In Pakistan you have worse, there are people who eat the feces of a horse (acting as its Imam Husseins horse Zuljannah).

Look at this in Kuwait, what a mockery

 

 

Wow .... My intellect just died.  :mellow:

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Yes, and you're Orthodox? Nice! There are a few Christians of various flavors here. For various reasons. :-)

 

 

I love me some Orthodox Christians. There are quite a few on this site. George Potemkin, nemesis, Servidor, and others. Most of them aint too active anymore, sadly. But they are all awesome people. Here is a picture I found of Servidor: https://s.yimg.com/fz/api/res/1.2/Jy4SNDdPqf50hkCQjrVpTQ--/YXBwaWQ9c3JjaGRkO2g9MzMyO3E9OTU7dz01MDA-/http://www.arcticphoto.co.uk/Pix/RE/01/REV0039-20_P.JPG

 

 

 

Roya seems like more of a mozlem to me, so I didn't include her in the list.

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If it's not about Sunnis then why this comment below?

Finally, no one is stopping you from following the version of Islam that you want to follow. Likewise I'm sure no one is forcing you to follow another version either that consists of tatbir. So i don't know why you're feeling so inclined into forcing people to do what you agree and disagree with. Just like me, you are a no body. And the beauty is we can agree to disagree with each other, can't we. But that doesn't mean bashing one another in a public lobby, certainly that isn't the way of the Ahlul Bayt (as) that you fondly speak of.

Because you have to see what I was replying to.

Follow that own religion of yours,no body cares less to be honest..bark like a dog, and cut your head like a barbaric zombie, but dont do it in the name of Allah & Ahlul Bayt, dont do it in the name of Shia.

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John is right here - go ahead and do whatever you want. bark like a dog, dress up like a lion, cut yourselves from head to toe, but at least don't go about associating these ridiculous customs with the name of Allah, the Prophet and the AhlulBayt (AS). Because when people view all these images and videos, they think this is an out and about common shi'a practice and all of us practice it - we don't, but getting them to believe this is yet another battle. If you want to show your loyalty to Them, don't act like dogs - do it by spreading their message and following what they preached in your daily lives. 

 

Honestly I have no idea how I'd explain things if people like my inlaws who are ready to bombard shia's ever came across this filth. 

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Because you have to see what I was replying to.

Follow that own religion of yours,no body cares less to be honest..bark like a dog, and cut your head like a barbaric zombie, but dont do it in the name of Allah & Ahlul Bayt, dont do it in the name of Shia.

 

Likewise, don't associate your public whinging to the Ahlul Bayt [as], because all you're doing is creating fitna, discord and disunity amongst believers which itself is a grievous crime.

 

Nothing good has come out of this thread, nothing ever does. Unless of course you're more concerned about appeasing those that hate any mention of Shia. In which case, well done for providing more ammunition to the enemies.

 

I request the mods lock this thread and stop any further similar threads opening, for the reasons given above. Thank you...

 

Fi Amanillah

Edited by StayingHalal

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I think this topic has helped us learn about the absurdities around the world and the stupidities fellow shia's are drowning in. these people are getting us mocked by others - heck even the guy making that lion video in Kuwait was laughing his head off. these customs serve no purpose whatsoever except for making a mockery out of shias. 

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Likewise, don't associate your public whinging to the Ahlul Bayt [as], because all you're doing is creating fitna, discord and disunity amongst believers which itself is a grievous crime.

 

Nothing good has come out of this thread, nothing ever does. Unless of course you're more concerned about appeasing those that hate any mention of Shia. In which case, well done for providing more ammunition to the enemies.

 

I request the mods lock this thread and stop any further similar threads opening, for the reasons given above. Thank you...

 

Fi Amanillah

What logic do you have? Creating Fitna? When I find someone who wants to demolish Sayeda Zeinabs shrine physically, I wage a war against him, and when I find someone wanting to demolish Sayeda Zeinabs school of thought and struggle, I will also wage a war against him.

Whats the difference between ISIS and these stupid barking howling dog wanna bes? They  both want to destroy the school of Ahlul Bayt.

Edited by John Al-Ameli

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What logic do you have? Creating Fitna? When I find someone who wants to demolish Sayeda Zeinabs shrine physically, I wage a war against him, and when I find someone wanting to demolish Sayeda Zeinabs school of thought and struggle, I will also wage a war against him.

Whats the difference between ISIS and these stupid barking howling dog wanna bes? They  both want to destroy the school of Ahlul Bayt.

 

And what type of war is that brother? Being a keyboard warrior in Shiachat? Seriously, just look back at your thread and see that you've achieved nothing positive. And there are dozens n dozens of these threads building up in Shiachat's databases. It's old, move on. Find a better way to campaign [not bash] your fellow's actions. Furthermore, work on yourself too, your mind and your nafs. Take lesson from the signature that you possess because clearly you are not a freethinker... and that's exactly what this discussion has become - "worse than useless".

 

Khuda Hafiz 

Edited by StayingHalal

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And what type of war is that brother? Being a keyboard warrior in Shiachat? Seriously, just look back at your thread and see that you've achieved nothing positive. And there are dozens n dozens of these threads building up in Shiachat's databases. It's old, move on. Find a better way to campaign [not bash] your fellow's actions. Furthermore, work on yourself too, your mind and your nafs. Take lesson from the signature that you possess because clearly you are not a freethinker... and that's exactly what this discussion has become - "worse than useless".

 

Khuda Hafiz

First, I in that sentence doesnt mean me personally, it means, we or Shia or so.

 

Second. You make me laugh. Please continue. Can we give you a microphone and a stand as well?

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And what type of war is that brother? Being a keyboard warrior in Shiachat? Seriously, just look back at your thread and see that you've achieved nothing positive. And there are dozens n dozens of these threads building up in Shiachat's databases. It's old, move on. Find a better way to campaign [not bash] your fellow's actions. Furthermore, work on yourself too, your mind and your nafs. Take lesson from the signature that you possess because clearly you are not a freethinker... and that's exactly what this discussion has become - "worse than useless".

 

Khuda Hafiz 

 

Just because someone is on the internet, doesn't mean they are not active in other areas in real life. And of course it achieves something. The only thing it doesn't achieve is waking up those who pretend to be asleep.

 

Others on the other hand, have shared awareness videos on multimedia, social networks etc, some Sunnis, Christians, Jews etc see this and say, hey, some of them don't support barking like dogs. 

 

It's about time people stop being apologists for these kind of behavior and just denounce it completely. They could get away with infiltrating and changing our school of thought 30 years ago, but with today's technology and access to information, the massive shift in shia political movement and awareness, people actually being able to see what marjas are doing, etc etc they can't get away with it anymore, they will get resistance. 

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John is right here - go ahead and do whatever you want. bark like a dog, dress up like a lion, cut yourselves from head to toe, but at least don't go about associating these ridiculous customs with the name of Allah, the Prophet and the AhlulBayt (AS). Because when people view all these images and videos, they think this is an out and about common shi'a practice and all of us practice it - we don't, but getting them to believe this is yet another battle. If you want to show your loyalty to Them, don't act like dogs - do it by spreading their message and following what they preached in your daily lives. 

 

Honestly I have no idea how I'd explain things if people like my inlaws who are ready to bombard shia's ever came across this filth.

It's absolutely absurd, Apo. This nonsense makes me want to study at a hawza and get knowledge to combat this tomfoolery of eating horse manure, dressing up like a lion and barking like a dog.

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Guest silasun

Here is a very good discussion at the Islamic Centre of England:

 

 

I really enjoyed the talk by Sh. Bahmanpour at the end especially

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Find a better way to campaign [not bash] your fellow's actions.

The problem is that no matter how rational or emotionless tatbeer gets criticized,the replies are mostly not referring to the given arguments, invalid qiyas is made or an emotional campaign starts like how-dare-u-questioning-my-way-of-mourning.

I read a lot of those threads and nowhere get questions answered without getting emotional and assuming that it's all about hatred and fitna.It seems that any criticism or questioning is not wanted.Why?

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^ The rules change when it comes to commemorating the martyrdom of Imam Hussain [as]. I have not come across a limit set by the Aimmah [as] as to how one should mourn, so I don't understand why the followers try to set a limit. If someone wants to mourn and feel the pain of the Imam [as] by way of self-inflicting wounds, why should I intervene and make a public outcry? I mentioned earlier whereby the Imams that followed wanted to feel what Imam Hussain [as] felt. In particular when one Imam [as] was nearing death, he requested that he be put on the bare ground so that he could get a feel for what Imam Hussain [as] felt when lying on the plains of Karbala.

 

Furthermore, why should i force another to mourn the way that I mourn or the way that I find comfortable? These threads are always created by the anti-group to mock a fellow believer. We all love ahl-e-Muhammed [as] and there's nothing wrong with having our own way of expressing our love and grief for them. Differences are inevitable, but why disunite? Why not respect that the other has reached a different determination? What is the point of sticky-ing that "unity amongst shia" thread when threads like these follow that do nothing but create disunity? At least you respect our scholars. Do they not differ in this matter? So then, what purpose does this thread serve when the learned differ in opinion over this practice?


Ridiculing Islam is prohibited, barking like a dog and acting like an idiot is prohibited in Islam, acting outside of urf, specially Islamic urf is prohibited, doing things that make Islam look bad is prohibited, making the general sane people of the non islamic world grow a distaste of islam is prohibited..................i can go all day.

 

So throwing around a hadith........as i mentioned earlier, without understanding it doesn't work anymore. People actually do have brains.

 

The normal rule doesn't apply to mourning Imam Hussain. I wouldn't cry loudly/wail when mourning a family relative and nor is it encouraged. But is encouraged when mourning Imam Hussain [as].

 

Yes, people do have brains. And that's part of the problem nowadays, when we think we know better than the Ahlul Bayt [as]. Like the man in your avatar, who made chess halal despite the existence of dozens of ahadith that explicitly prohibit it. 

 

Just because someone is on the internet, doesn't mean they are not active in other areas in real life. And of course it achieves something. The only thing it doesn't achieve is waking up those who pretend to be asleep.

 

Others on the other hand, have shared awareness videos on multimedia, social networks etc, some Sunnis, Christians, Jews etc see this and say, hey, some of them don't support barking like dogs. 

 

It's about time people stop being apologists for these kind of behavior and just denounce it completely. They could get away with infiltrating and changing our school of thought 30 years ago, but with today's technology and access to information, the massive shift in shia political movement and awareness, people actually being able to see what marjas are doing, etc etc they can't get away with it anymore, they will get resistance. 

 

Not apologising for anyone. Just calling for acceptance of differences and unity. But I see one not wanting to unite, rather disassociate, to appease a third party. So, there's nothing more I can say.

 

Long live the azadaar-e-Hussain [as] - however you mourn.

 

Fi Amanillah.

Edited by StayingHalal

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What i find very strange is those that say "show me a ruling that a marja forbids it" etc.

 

This is in reference to people being chained and walked like a dog and barking. Striking themselves and babies with swords etc

 

If you need a fatwa to tell you that is wrong, then you have much bigger issues.

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Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum.

Today we see dogs, lions, and horses. Tomorrow we will see what other animals they will have in mind, maybe monkeys, bears, and camels.

StayHallal, I fail to see how you can not see the absurdity. Only harm has been done and nothing good has been demonstrated.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

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Guest silasun

 

Yes, people do have brains. And that's part of the problem nowadays, when we think we know better than the Ahlul Bayt [as]. Like the man in your avatar, who made chess halal despite the existence of dozens of ahadith that explicitly prohibit it. 

 

 

You should refer to posts #35, 52, 59, 62 and 97 of this thread: 

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235023406-mujtahid-fatwas-vs-imam-hadiths-chess/page-2#entry2715282

 

And I would advise you to learn about who Imam Khomeini ® was before suggesting that he thought he knew better than the Ahlulbayt (a).

 

Also, keep it relevant to the topic.

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^ The rules change when it comes to commemorating the martyrdom of Imam Hussain [as]. I have not come across a limit set by the Aimmah [as] as to how one should mourn, so I don't understand why the followers try to set a limit. If someone wants to mourn and feel the pain of the Imam [as] by way of self-inflicting wounds, why should I intervene and make a public outcry? I mentioned earlier whereby the Imams that followed wanted to feel what Imam Hussain [as] felt. In particular when one Imam [as] was nearing death, he requested that he be put on the bare ground so that he could get a feel for what Imam Hussain [as] felt when lying on the plains of Karbala.

 

Furthermore, why should i force another to mourn the way that I mourn or the way that I find comfortable? These threads are always created by the anti-group to mock a fellow believer. We all love ahl-e-Muhammed [as] and there's nothing wrong with having our own way of expressing our love and grief for them. Differences are inevitable, but why disunite? Why not respect that the other has reached a different determination? What is the point of sticky-ing that "unity amongst shia" thread when threads like these follow that do nothing but create disunity? At least you respect our scholars. Do they not differ in this matter? So then, what purpose does this thread serve when the learned differ in opinion over this practice?

 

The normal rule doesn't apply to mourning Imam Hussain. I wouldn't cry loudly/wail when mourning a family relative and nor is it encouraged. But is encouraged when mourning Imam Hussain [as].

 

Yes, people do have brains. And that's part of the problem nowadays, when we think we know better than the Ahlul Bayt [as]. Like the man in your avatar, who made chess halal despite the existence of dozens of ahadith that explicitly prohibit it. 

 

 

Not apologising for anyone. Just calling for acceptance of differences and unity. But I see one not wanting to unite, rather disassociate, to appease a third party. So, there's nothing more I can say.

 

Long live the azadaar-e-Hussain [as] - however you mourn.

 

Fi Amanillah.

 

Few years ago on an arabic forum, this argument of no limit on the Jaza' on imam hussain was brought up. jaza' is an arabic word that appeared in hadiths describing the state of man who just lost one of his beloved. Instead of crying, he may cut his cloths, cry very loudly, beat himself or break things around etc

This reaction to the death of a beloved someone is forbidden in islam as it is against patience and being pleased with Allah's destained end of that beloved person.

 

In case of Imam Hussain, hadiths made exceptions. Jaza' is allowed. The discussion was regarding the limits: Can cutting one's hand be allowed as jaza' over the cut hands of Aba Alfadl?

Can we cut throats or walk naked or other extreme things?

It is obviously a no, but the argument was using logic, hadiths and other fiqh math work.

 

My question is : Is the sort of denial sadness that we see from those who lost their beloved is what we see from the dogs who bark on Imam Hussain?

I dont see jazz', because jaza' is basically mourning, crying, being sad, being sorry.... something like this.

 

To reach the level of Jaza' one needs huge HUGE amount of knowledge. Being a dog is evidently a lack of it.

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