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FromShiaSunniBrotherhood

Cursing The Khulafa And Aiesha!

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You said;

" Let's be clear, i am the biggest advocate of everyone knowing the history of Islam after the Prophet but biggest critique of cursing outloud .I AM NOT DEBATING TO PROVE ANYONE'S REVERENCE, NOT DO I REPRESENT A SECT, NO WAY. I would love if all read what happened at Jamal and Saqifa and why and how Imam Ali is the successor of Prophet Muhammad"

Are you a biggest critique of cursing out loud in general or just a biggest critique of cursing certain people in paricular? When would you consider someone eligible to be cursed? I mean how far does one need to go or how much does one need to do to be considered? Allah hasn't mentioned and layed out any rules and regulations for mankind regarding cursing/lanath, if he has then let me know. But who Allah has cursed and considered eligible to be cursed/sent lanath, Allah has clearly mentioned in the Quran of why they are being cursed or under curse/lanath.

As far as humans are concerned one has always thought I'll and bad about their enemies, rivals, opponents etc or if not this then one has always disliked and turned away from those who have hurt and or harmed them. Just an example that there might be close or far relations who have terribly harmed and hurt me one way or the other but due to my nature and humbleness I will certainly not curse/send lanath on them. Hey I wouldn't even think I'll or bad about them but if I am an influential and popular figure, some kind of leader be it religious or political then I will have opponents, enemies, rivals all sorts and after my demise or even during my life time my followers and supporters will see things differently and have a different approach.

Just because the Ahlul Baith prefer and chose to be patient and tolerant to such a high level or remain to be silent and quiet about certain issues, problems or matters or have a particular approach doesn't mean that it is compulsory and wajib. What ever they did and behaved was down to the nature and situation of those times and generation.

Edited by Ameen

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I'll never understand this. If they are in heaven then curses can not reach them. And if they are in hell then idolizing won't save them. How this silly issue has been made an issue while it conforms to basic anthropology. Those who think they are defending them are instead repeatedly inviting evidence which continuously  defames them. If you really want to hide their flaws then you should change your oldest books instead of refreshing everyone's memory of them. Might work.

 

What is more amusing is that the people who do not believe that our blessings uttered for the prophet actually reach him, in sharp self contradiction believe that curses can reach and harm ordinary human beings in some way. What else can be the cause for concern here. How interesting.

Edited by Darth Vader

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I'll never understand this. If they are in heaven then curses can not reach them. And if they are in hell then idolizing won't save them. How this silly issue has been made an issue while it conforms to basic anthropology. Those who think they are defending them are instead repeatedly inviting evidence which continuously  defames them. If you really want to hide their flaws then you should change your oldest books instead of refreshing everyone's memory of them. Might work.

 

What is more amusing is that the people who do not believe that our blessings uttered for the prophet actually reach him, in sharp self contradiction believe that curses can reach and harm ordinary human beings in some way. What else can be the cause for concern here. How interesting.

 

It is NOT SILLY! 

I wouldn't stop chasing a thing which has weak link itself in Shia following which also happens to be a seed of discord between Shias and Sunnis because even though nobody really pays attention to this and hardly i have ever seen a Shia or a Sunni scholar mentioning verses from the Quran where Allah says "beleivers are brothers in faith" or talks about "those who are with Muhammad are soft among themselves and strong with the disbelievers". All i ever hear is a Sunni person quoting hadiths on the exalted abu bakr omer and aiesha and Shias quoting the how abu bakr omer and aiesha are cursed. So yes this is NOT SILLY. 

In times like today when we  there are a 100 other evils  one which can be dealt with head on and easily is the SPILT BETWEEN THE UMMAH. So no NOT SILLY!

The argument that someone who saw and believed in the Prophet s.a.w. and died as a muslim is saved no matter what he said or did during his life.is just not good enough for me to believe in.

 

i do not see where in all of this post have i ever given this argument?? 

I need answers for my questions some of which the ingenius Shiaman14 did come up with honestly. We did end up the debate at a common ground please go read that :)

You said;

" Let's be clear, i am the biggest advocate of everyone knowing the history of Islam after the Prophet but biggest critique of cursing outloud .I AM NOT DEBATING TO PROVE ANYONE'S REVERENCE, NOT DO I REPRESENT A SECT, NO WAY. I would love if all read what happened at Jamal and Saqifa and why and how Imam Ali is the successor of Prophet Muhammad"

Are you a biggest critique of cursing out loud in general or just a biggest critique of cursing certain people in paricular? When would you consider someone eligible to be cursed? I mean how far does one need to go or how much does one need to do to be considered? Allah hasn't mentioned and layed out any rules and regulations for mankind regarding cursing/lanath, if he has then let me know. But who Allah has cursed and considered eligible to be cursed/sent lanath, Allah has clearly mentioned in the Quran of why they are being cursed or under curse/lanath.

As far as humans are concerned one has always thought I'll and bad about their enemies, rivals, opponents etc or if not this then one has always disliked and turned away from those who have hurt and or harmed them. Just an example that there might be close or far relations who have terribly harmed and hurt me one way or the other but due to my nature and humbleness I will certainly not curse/send lanath on them. Hey I wouldn't even think I'll or bad about them but if I am an influential and popular figure, some kind of leader be it religious or political then I will have opponents, enemies, rivals all sorts and after my demise or even during my life time my followers and supporters will see things differently and have a different approach.

Just because the Ahlul Baith prefer and chose to be patient and tolerant to such a high level or remain to be silent and quiet about certain issues, problems or matters or have a particular approach doesn't mean that it is compulsory and wajib. What ever they did and behaved was down to the nature and situation of those times and generation.

 

 

I definitely agree with you about this, but you can NOT be doing what Ahlul Bayt didn't do.

WHY?

Because you are not smarter than them, or more far sighted or the flag bearers of religion or an appointed judge over people's fate.

The Ahlul Bayt chose to remian silent and patient but it WASN'T "JUST BECAUSE". Everything they did had a deep science behind it which we can NOT IGNORE BY ANY JUST BECAUSES!

(and i am the biggest critique of following things religiously which were incorporated into Islam by people who came a THOUSAND years later than imam ali i.e dua sanam  quraish, biggest critique of a following without research.) 

I'll never understand this. If they are in heaven then curses can not reach them. And if they are in hell then idolizing won't save them. How this silly issue has been made an issue while it conforms to basic anthropology. Those who think they are defending them are instead repeatedly inviting evidence which continuously  defames them. If you really want to hide their flaws then you should change your oldest books instead of refreshing everyone's memory of them. Might work.

 

What is more amusing is that the people who do not believe that our blessings uttered for the prophet actually reach him, in sharp self contradiction believe that curses can reach and harm ordinary human beings in some way. What else can be the cause for concern here. How interesting.

 

 

I probably  haven't repeated this enough number of times already that i am NOT DEFENDING ABU BAKR OMER or AIESHA. It would be very kind of you all to stop throwing that in my face in further replies. 

 

If you think Sunnis "IDOLIZE" Abu Bakr, Omer and Aiesha, i am sorry you are following the wrong guy from the pulpit. 

 

Everyone is doing the same mistake differently, Sunnis accuse Shias of shirk and shias accuse sunnis as shirk, while i see this game of blame as a revolt against system of Allah.  

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I need answers for my questions some of which the ingenius Shiaman14 did come up with honestly. We did end up the debate at a common ground please go read that :)

Dear sister - please note that I am no authority so the other brothers/sisters don't have to agree with my stance on anything. However, like you I too thought that we had reached an amicable understanding on this issue. We agreed that:

  • The focus on la'an from both sides is misplaced. Shiaism is more than just sending la'an on people. The actual tenet is tabarra and it is more than just sending la'an on people. You distance yourself from the people and the actions that hurt the AhlulBayt. On a side note, I heard a great poetry once that Fadak was given to Hz Fatima a.s. as part of Khums. We curse the people who stole fadak from her but then we don't pay khums ourselves so in effect we curse ourselves too. 
  • La'an is permissible but you are against it in a public setting. Plenty of shia scholars have the same stance as you. Moreover you are even okay with la'an the way it is stated in ziarat-ashura.

I am not sure what more is left to be discussed on this matter but at least I am done with this topic.

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i do not see where in all of this post have i ever given this argument?? 

 

Because this is exactly the argument Sunni muslims use for their prohibition on cursing the cursed.

They were saved because they saw the Prophet s.a.w., believed in the Prophet s.a.w. and died as muslims. 

What they said or did during and or after the demise of the Prophet s.a.w. for them is totally unimportant.

The question is rather what do the ones cursed by Shia muslims mean to you?

Do you believe they are saved or cursed?

Edited by Skanderbeg

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THANK YOU

 

Dear sister - please note that I am no authority so the other brothers/sisters don't have to agree with my stance on anything. However, like you I too thought that we had reached an amicable understanding on this issue. We agreed that:

  • The focus on la'an from both sides is misplaced. Shiaism is more than just sending la'an on people. The actual tenet is tabarra and it is more than just sending la'an on people. You distance yourself from the people and the actions that hurt the AhlulBayt. On a side note, I heard a great poetry once that Fadak was given to Hz Fatima a.s. as part of Khums. We curse the people who stole fadak from her but then we don't pay khums ourselves so in effect we curse ourselves too. 
  • La'an is permissible but you are against it in a public setting. Plenty of shia scholars have the same stance as you. Moreover you are even okay with la'an the way it is stated in ziarat-ashura.

I am not sure what more is left to be discussed on this matter but at least I am done with this topic.

 

 

Thank you for your honesty again, that is precisely what i wanted people here to realize there is so much more to shia following than cursing! And tabarra sounds like the right way to me too 

I am done with this topic  as well and i have my answers but then some over zealous brothers who apparently didn't read all the questions i have raised and things i have already agreed on, have to come and throw the "love of sahaba in my face" . I do not have to give the proof of who i love and who i don't to anyone here. 

Thank you again. 

Jazak Allah e khair!

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It's not about you at all. 

The belief that some people are cursed is a general belief in Shia Islam.

But you know very well that when you admit certain people are cursed, the curse is actually not an offense / or a problem at all. 

And if to you they are saved then it's outside the fold of Shia Islam. 

When you say A, then have the courage to go to Z as well instead of starting something and then abort it whenever you want unless you're in PM box private messaging but this is a public forum so at least be courageous enough to deal with counter-arguments instead of just waiting for a confirmation of your opinion.

 

Edited by Skanderbeg

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It is NOT SILLY!

I wouldn't stop chasing a thing which has weak link itself in Shia following which also happens to be a seed of discord between Shias and Sunnis because even though nobody really pays attention to this and hardly i have ever seen a Shia or a Sunni scholar mentioning verses from the Quran where Allah says "beleivers are brothers in faith" or talks about "those who are with Muhammad are soft among themselves and strong with the disbelievers". All i ever hear is a Sunni person quoting hadiths on the exalted abu bakr omer and aiesha and Shias quoting the how abu bakr omer and aiesha are cursed. So yes this is NOT SILLY.

In times like today when we there are a 100 other evils one which can be dealt with head on and easily is the SPILT BETWEEN THE UMMAH. So no NOT SILLY!

i do not see where in all of this post have i ever given this argument??

I need answers for my questions some of which the ingenius Shiaman14 did come up with honestly. We did end up the debate at a common ground please go read that :)

I definitely agree with you about this, but you can NOT be doing what Ahlul Bayt didn't do.

WHY?

Because you are not smarter than them, or more far sighted or the flag bearers of religion or an appointed judge over people's fate.

The Ahlul Bayt chose to remian silent and patient but it WASN'T "JUST BECAUSE". Everything they did had a deep science behind it which we can NOT IGNORE BY ANY JUST BECAUSES!

(and i am the biggest critique of following things religiously which were incorporated into Islam by people who came a THOUSAND years later than imam ali i.e dua sanam quraish, biggest critique of a following without research.)

I probably haven't repeated this enough number of times already that i am NOT DEFENDING ABU BAKR OMER or AIESHA. It would be very kind of you all to stop throwing that in my face in further replies.

If you think Sunnis "IDOLIZE" Abu Bakr, Omer and Aiesha, i am sorry you are following the wrong guy from the pulpit.

Everyone is doing the same mistake differently, Sunnis accuse Shias of shirk and shias accuse sunnis as shirk, while i see this game of blame as a revolt against system of Allah.

Like I said Bro, it's all about circumstances, situation and the condition that the Ahlul Baith were in and faced. The choices that they made were down to them. Secondly everything is not recorded in history and a lot was done to try and hide the fact that people had issues and problems with the Ahlul Baith.

How you feel and react towards your rival, enemy, opposition etc is down to you. Now if we look at things through your perspective then how did the Khalifs/companions treat their rivals or people they didn't get along with?

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Ali, the 4th rightly guided Khalifa of the Muslims, was cursed by Muawiyah and he made it obligatory/compulsory and part of the Jummah khutba. This was a common practice in (Syria) Sham which was controlled and influenced by Muawiyah.

Those who believe in and are all time lovers of the Sahaba can they tell me who do they follow when they call Shias Kafir and carry out their killings or consider Shia killings permissible?

And if i am not wrong even Umar cursed his killer/attacker. I will post you the reference

A question that needs to be asked and answered is that those who hate Shias and what they think, say and accuse them of, which companion do they follow?

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