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AlKhidr

Shia Challenging Questions

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5 minutes ago, AlKhidr said:

The deal is very clear, none of your imams or khalias is mentioned in the Qur'aan for us to believe in or follow.  Allah will not make something like this ambiguous, only sects, cults, organizations that try to brainwash people prey or exploit things of this nature to deceive the masses.

And your Code 19'ers and cherry picking Qur'an aloners singing praises about Dr. Rashad Khalifa aren't a cult, ok got it. I got brainwashed by you Qur'an aloners once and I never doing that mistake ever again. What you guys preach is not Islam, sorry.

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"Qadr is power, honour, glory, grandeur.

Refer to the commentary of Dukhan: 3 to 6 and references mentioned therein to have a clear understanding about the doctrine of determinism propagated by a large number of Muslim schools of thought; and also the true, rational and Islamic article of faith based on divine adl (justice) presented by the Ahl ul Bayt that man has been given a free wil1 to do good or do evil on the basis of which or as a consequence of which he will be examined on the day of judgement. Refer to the commentary of Baqarah: 2 on page 20; and 5 on page 24; and 21 on page 55.

Laylatil Qadr means the night of power or grandeur. As verses 2 and 3 suggest it is, in the spiritual sense, a secret kept hidden, and it transcends time because in it Allah's power dispels the darkness of ignorance through His revelation.

Jalal al Din al Suyuti, in Durr al Manthur, says that laylatil qadr stands for the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

The night of qadr is in the month of Ramadan. See Baqarah: 185 and Dukhan: 1 to 3 wherein it is stated that the whole Quran was revealed in this night. The descension of the angels and the spirit is a regular occurrence since the creation of Allah till the day of resurrection, and the place of descent is a thoroughly purified heart (Ahzab: 33). Therefore there should be such a purified heart in existence at all times.

Imam Muhammad bin Ali al Baqir said:

"Present this surah as a decisive argument for the continuity of the divine vicegerency on the earth."

The 19th, 21st, 23rd, 25th, 27th or 29th night of Ramadan is the night of qadr.

The whole Quran was revealed to the Holy Prophet in this night but he used to recite or convey to the people only such passages or verses as he was commanded by Allah through Jibrail. It is known as gradual revelation. Refer to the commentary of Baqarah: 2 and Aqa Puya's essay "The Genuineness of the Holy Quran".

Verse 2 suggests that the spiritual nature of this night and its value is known to Allah only.

Quoting Sajdah: 4, 5 and Ma-arij: 4, Abdullah Yusuf Ali says that "a thousand months" refers to "timeless time". One moment of enlightenment under Allah's light is better than thousands of months or years of animal life, and such a moment converts the night of darkness into a period of spiritual glory.

The Imams of Ahl ul Bayt have asked their followers to pray to Allah and invoke His forgiveness and blessings during the night of Qadr.

It is said that angels and holy spirits descend on the earth with peace and special blessings from Allah for those who seek Allah's mercy and bounties through prayers and supplications during this night. In the month of Ramadan the believers fast, pray and do good, therefore Allah sends down His forgiveness, mercy and blessings on those believers who obey His commands, and the boon of blessings and bounties promised to the sincere devotees of Allah continues until the rising of the dawn.

When the spiritual darkness is dispelled by the light from Allah, a sense of security and peace dawns on the soul. "

http://quran.al-islam.org/

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1 hour ago, Dhulfikar said:

What else it could be then? Of course I'm referring to the recorded historical narrations.

Dhulfikar its about time you got honest and admitted you were referring to hadiyths all along. This is why I have CHALLENGED you to prove that your Shia set of hadiyth books are a source of Islaam and you evade this CHALLENGE and I know why because Allah in the Qur'aan from cover to cover never used the word "hadiyth" and never told us to believe in them and He never told us that hadiyth is the sunna of Rasuwl Allah, this is something the Sunni and Shi'ite sect has invented after the death of Rasuwl Allah.  There is no such verse that exist in the Qur'aan and you know it.  I have presented my CHALLENGE at the beginning when I first opened this post and no one has been able to shut my mouth up by producing just one verse.  Dhulfikar, you need to drop your eagle and just admit the truth that you cannot prove your belief of hadiyth.  If you want to belief in something that is not supported in the Qur'aan then that's your purgative but don't sit here and try to act like your hadiyth books are backed by Allah.  All verses in the Qur'aan emphatically states that Allah revealed the Qur'aan to Prophet Muhammad and no hadiyth.

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8 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

And your Code 19'ers and cherry picking Qur'an aloners singing praises about Dr. Rashad Khalifa aren't a cult, ok got it. I got brainwashed by you Qur'an aloners once and I never doing that mistake ever again. What you guys preach is not Islam, sorry.

If you have issues with Rashad Khalifa's community you should take it up with them because I'm not a member.

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5 minutes ago, AlKhidr said:

If you have issues with Rashad Khalifa's community you should take it up with them because I'm not a member.

Baloney, you were talking about Code 19 earlier and another thing, why would I believe anything you said about the Qur'an, especially since you lied to me and @shiaman14 months earlier.

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9 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

"Qadr is power, honour, glory, grandeur.

Refer to the commentary of Dukhan: 3 to 6 and references mentioned therein to have a clear understanding about the doctrine of determinism propagated by a large number of Muslim schools of thought; and also the true, rational and Islamic article of faith based on divine adl (justice) presented by the Ahl ul Bayt that man has been given a free wil1 to do good or do evil on the basis of which or as a consequence of which he will be examined on the day of judgement. Refer to the commentary of Baqarah: 2 on page 20; and 5 on page 24; and 21 on page 55.

Laylatil Qadr means the night of power or grandeur. As verses 2 and 3 suggest it is, in the spiritual sense, a secret kept hidden, and it transcends time because in it Allah's power dispels the darkness of ignorance through His revelation.

Jalal al Din al Suyuti, in Durr al Manthur, says that laylatil qadr stands for the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

The night of qadr is in the month of Ramadan. See Baqarah: 185 and Dukhan: 1 to 3 wherein it is stated that the whole Quran was revealed in this night. The descension of the angels and the spirit is a regular occurrence since the creation of Allah till the day of resurrection, and the place of descent is a thoroughly purified heart (Ahzab: 33). Therefore there should be such a purified heart in existence at all times.

Imam Muhammad bin Ali al Baqir said:

"Present this surah as a decisive argument for the continuity of the divine vicegerency on the earth."

The 19th, 21st, 23rd, 25th, 27th or 29th night of Ramadan is the night of qadr.

The whole Quran was revealed to the Holy Prophet in this night but he used to recite or convey to the people only such passages or verses as he was commanded by Allah through Jibrail. It is known as gradual revelation. Refer to the commentary of Baqarah: 2 and Aqa Puya's essay "The Genuineness of the Holy Quran".

Verse 2 suggests that the spiritual nature of this night and its value is known to Allah only.

Quoting Sajdah: 4, 5 and Ma-arij: 4, Abdullah Yusuf Ali says that "a thousand months" refers to "timeless time". One moment of enlightenment under Allah's light is better than thousands of months or years of animal life, and such a moment converts the night of darkness into a period of spiritual glory.

The Imams of Ahl ul Bayt have asked their followers to pray to Allah and invoke His forgiveness and blessings during the night of Qadr.

It is said that angels and holy spirits descend on the earth with peace and special blessings from Allah for those who seek Allah's mercy and bounties through prayers and supplications during this night. In the month of Ramadan the believers fast, pray and do good, therefore Allah sends down His forgiveness, mercy and blessings on those believers who obey His commands, and the boon of blessings and bounties promised to the sincere devotees of Allah continues until the rising of the dawn.

When the spiritual darkness is dispelled by the light from Allah, a sense of security and peace dawns on the soul. "

http://quran.al-islam.org/

I read everything that you have presented and you have actually mentioned some points that are good but where you mess things up is when you quote something like this from a tradition or sources that are words of man:

"Jalal al Din al Suyuti, in Durr al Manthur, says that laylatil qadr stands for the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt."

"Present this surah as a decisive argument for the continuity of the divine vicegerency on the earth."

Only a Shi'ite Muslim will believe this because the verse in the Qur'aan does not say anything about Ahlul Bayt or the khalifas/imams being referred to in Sura 97 that we have been addressing; again look at the verse without the spiritual blinkers:

Qur'aan 97:1-5

1.  We revealed it in the Night of Power.

2.  And by what means would you perceive what the Night of Power is?

3.  The Night of Power is better than a thousand months.

4.  The Angelic Beings and the Spirit descend therein, by their Lord's leave, to carry out every command.

5.  Peace enveloped (this exalted Night) until the advent of the dawn.

 

THERE IS NOTHING IN THIS VERSE THAT IS TALKING ABOUT AHUL BAYT OR THE KHALIFAS OR IMAMS.  THIS IS THE PROBELM WITH SECTS, THEY JUST MAKE THINGS UP AND HOPE THAT THEIR FOLLOWERS JUST BLINDLY ACCEPT. PROPHET MUHAMMAD IS THE ONE THAT IS BEING ADDRESSED IN THIS VERSE NOT OTHER MEMBERS OF HIS FAMILY.  WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS QUOTING WORDS OF MAN BUT NOT THE QUR'AAN TO BACK UP OR PROVE YOUR POINT.  THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN PROVE SOMETHING IS BY SHOWING THE EVIDENCE INSIDE THE QUR'AAN, NOT QUOTING A BUNCH OF MEN WHOME Allah NEVER MENTIONED AS AN AUTHORITY.

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59 minutes ago, AlKhidr said:

The deal is very clear, none of your imams or khalias is mentioned in the Qur'aan for us to believe in or follow.  Allah will not make something like this ambiguous, only sects, cults, organizations that try to brainwash people prey or exploit things of this nature to deceive the masses.

1. One person's ambiguity is another person's clarity. Who are you to discern what's ambigious and what's clear? Why should I trust your methodology over anybody else's?

2. Who are you to dictate the terms of what or how Allah reveals anything? The truth doesn't rest on your recognition and consent. Whether something is metaphorical, literal, by name, by alluding, directly, indirectly, through a story, through whatever, isn't contingent on the whims of the Atari Panther logo. 

3. The Qur'an is a book of reflection. It forces one to reflect on nature, within the wide ranging Earth, which the Qur'an has all dominion towards. In other words, knowledge of divine nature exists beyond the bounds of the book. The book itself tells you to go beyond the book. Our religion has the proper channels for this outside journey for those who reflect, and not the stubborn ones (a deep rooted Qur'anic principle)

4. The totality of law of the United States is not entirely within the Constitution. The Constitution is a general book of principles and a few scattered specifics here and there. Most laws of the land (which must reflect the spirit of the Constitution), are stored in volumes of extra books. You can't cram all that into the original document. It just doesn't make sense. The president couldn't swear on an ever expanding stack of 20 volumes on a shelf. A basic thought. 

5. The Qur'an makes clear when it mentions "those in authority among you". People can debate about who this refers to. The reflective, sincere, and knowledgeable person will know what this alludes to. 

6. Every person and group fights for their cause, their interpretation of the book, and their interpretation of reality. Don't manufacture some contrived forcefield where some people are lumped into "sects", while you exist in some free, unshackled, detached abstraction, free of partisanship or representation.

7. Don't sell yourself short my friend. If you're comfortable with the path you've chosen, then defend it and bring your evidences. We will all answer to God on what we believed and did. 

8. What's worse than being misled is to mislead others. Have that heaviness in your heart when you engage in the chatter of the marketplace. 

 

Edited by magma

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Dhulfikar its about time you got honest and admitted you were referring to hadiyths all along.

Gosh you are so annoying. My whole posts is referring that the explanations that Muhammad (saws) received from God, His actions, His judges, his teaching, His wisdom is recorded in the narrations by people.
Qur'an is recorded in papers and books by people too.

 

Quote

This is why I have CHALLENGED you to prove that your Shia set of hadiyth books are a source of Islaam

You are not academic. And it seems that you don't understand that if someone does not want to take any challenge presented by you, it does not mean he is right or wrong, or he failed or succeeded. 

Source of Islam? One of the source of Islam, but not the absolute source of Islam.

Quote

I know why because Allah in the Qur'aan from cover to cover never used the word "hadiyth" and never told us to believe in them and He never told us that hadiyth is the sunna of Rasuwl Allah,

This is really my final answer to you. And I make it very very easy to understand so you can get it.

0. Hadith word is used in Qur'an many times.
1. Qur'an is described as hadith 12:111 too.
2. If Allah (swt) do not use statement follow the hadith (the Sunnah) in Qur'an, it does not mean that we can't follow it, nor it does even mean that we can follow it.

If I can't show you that Allah (swt) does say in Quran follow Kitab al-Kafi, IT DOES NOT MEAN, that We can't follow the authentic narrations of that book. 
 

3. What are the narrations? It is the records of the manifestation of speech,act,deeds,teach,explaining of the Prophet. They are recorded and memorized by people. Qur'an is recorded and memorize by people.

4.Why we need narrations? Because of the Qur'an verses:  16:44,  2:151, 24:54, 33:21. We need these so we can archive the truth and follow best the Prophet Muhammad (saws). The truth is not something that we can archive by our own interpretation. Because our interpretation many time is wrong.

Quote

CHALLENGE at the beginning when I first opened this post and no one has been able to shut my mouth up by producing just one verse. 

And no one can shut your mouth, because your challenge do not give any truthfulness in table. I challenge you that find me in the Qu'ran verses where it say that we can't follow any narrations beside the Qur'an.

Quote

.  Dhulfikar, you need to drop your eagle and just admit the truth that you cannot prove your belief of hadiyth.  If you want to belief in something that is not supported in the Qur'aan then that's your purgative but don't sit here and try to act like your hadiyth books are backed by Allah.  All verses in the Qur'aan emphatically states that Allah revealed the Qur'aan to Prophet Muhammad and no hadiyth.

Please use time to study some basic logic, so you can't easily make silly statements.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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2 hours ago, magma said:

1. One person's ambiguity is another person's clarity. Who are you to discern what's ambigious and what's clear? Why should I trust your methodology over anybody else's?

2. Who are you to dictate the terms of what or how Allah reveals anything? The truth doesn't rest on your recognition and consent. Whether something is metaphorical, literal, by name, by alluding, directly, indirectly, through a story, through whatever, isn't contingent on the whims of the Atari Panther logo. 

3. The Qur'an is a book of reflection. It forces one to reflect on nature, within the wide ranging Earth, which the Qur'an has all dominion towards. In other words, knowledge of divine nature exists beyond the bounds of the book. The book itself tells you to go beyond the book. Our religion has the proper channels for this outside journey for those who reflect, and not the stubborn ones (a deep rooted Qur'anic principle)

4. The totality of law of the United States is not entirely within the Constitution. The Constitution is a general book of principles and a few scattered specifics here and there. Most laws of the land (which must reflect the spirit of the Constitution), are stored in volumes of extra books. You can't cram all that into the original document. It just doesn't make sense. The president couldn't swear on an ever expanding stack of 20 volumes on a shelf. A basic thought. 

5. The Qur'an makes clear when it mentions "those in authority among you". People can debate about who this refers to. The reflective, sincere, and knowledgeable person will know what this alludes to. 

6. Every person and group fights for their cause, their interpretation of the book, and their interpretation of reality. Don't manufacture some contrived forcefield where some people are lumped into "sects", while you exist in some free, unshackled, detached abstraction, free of partisanship or representation.

7. Don't sell yourself short my friend. If you're comfortable with the path you've chosen, then defend it and bring your evidences. We will all answer to God on what we believed and did. 

8. What's worse than being misled is to mislead others. Have that heaviness in your heart when you engage in the chatter of the marketplace. 

 

I read all of your 8 emotional statements; I say emotional because just like all your other previous comments about me, you have not proved nothing nor can your refute any of my arguments in the scripture of Allah (Al Qur'aan).  The bottom line is this, if you are believing or teaching something in Islaam, you have to prove it in the Qur'aan.  I initially opened this post and presented my arguments, research in a book that I entitled: Shia Challenging Questions.  I presented it in this forum to allow people to critique it and present evidence from the Qur'aan to disprove my arguments and prove the authenticity of the Shia school of thought.  As of this point in time you Magma nor any other Shi'ite Muslim has been able to refute my arguments in my book that all can download on page 1 of this post.  The only thing that I've been getting from Shi'ite Muslims are: EMOTIONS, EMPTY STATEMENTS, ASSUMPTIONS, OPINIONS, WHISHFUL THINKING, PROGRAMMING, AND BRAINWASHING.

Edited by AlKhidr

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1 hour ago, Dhulfikar said:

And no one can shut your mouth, because your challenge do not give any truthfulness in table. I challenge you that find me in the Qu'ran verses where it say that we can't follow any narrations beside the Qur'an

Dhulfikar its important that I must remind you that you failed to meet my CHALLENGE by producing just one verse where Allah uses the word "hadiyth" and either tell us to believe in it or follow it or that it is the sunna of Rasuwl Allah.  Now since you challenged me in your statement up above, I will be happy to meet it head on.  Dhulfikar look at the verse below and you will see that Allah uses the word "hadiyth" and He has condemned it.  Allah makes it very clear that we are not supposed to believe in hadiyth that came after the revelation of the Qur'aan:

Ch45v6.JPG

Below I have provided the Arabic break down of this verse because your so-called scholars intentionally mistranslates this verse to conceal the truth:

Ch45v6%20(hadiyth%20break%20down).JPG

 

AS WE CAN CLEARLY SEE, Allah USED THE WORD "HADIYTH" AND HE CONDEMNED IT STRONGLY BY TELLING US NOT TO BELIEVE IN NO HADIYTH AFTER THE REVELATION OF THE QUR'AAN.  IN ADDITION TO THIS, THERE IS NOT ONE VERSE IN THE QUR'AAN WHERE Allah TELLS US TO BELIEVE IN OR FOLLOW HADIYTH BOOKS.  THERE IS NO VERSE IN THE QUR'AAN WHERE Allah SAYS THAT HE GAVE AYLUL BAYT HADIYTH BOOKS. 

NOTE THAT Allah USED THE ARABIC WORD IN THIS VERSE "BA'DA (AFTER)", THUS Allah TELLS US NOT TO BELIEVE IN NO HADIYTH AFTER THE REVELATION OF THE QUR'AAN AND GUESS WHAT SINCE THE SHI'ITE AND SUNNI SECT FABRICATED HADIYTHS AFTER THE REVELATION OF THE QUR'AAN THIS MEANS THAT YOUR SO-CALLED HADIYTHS BELOW ARE CONDMNED BY Allah TA'ALA.

Sunni accept:

Muwatta of Malik ibn Ans

Jamu’us Sahih of Bukhari

Sahih of Muslim

Sunan of Abu Daoud Sulaiman

Jami of Tirmidhi

Kitabus Sunan of Muhammad ibn Yazid ibn Majah of Qazwani

 

Shi’ite accept:

Kafi of Abu Ja'fa Muhammad

Man la Yastuhdirahul Fiqah of Shaikh Ali

Tahdhib of Shaikh abu Jafar Muhammad

Najhu’l Balaghah of Sayyid Radi

 

FOR THOSE MUSLIMS WHO WANTS MORE EVIDENCE THAT HADIYTHS ARE NOT A SOURCE OF ISLAAM, VISIT THE WEBSITE BELOW:

HADIYTH EXPOSED

http://www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/hadiythexposed.htm

Edited by AlKhidr

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3 hours ago, AlKhidr said:

Of course they were all before Prophet Muhammad during Laylatu'l Qadri (The Night Of Power).

Entire Qu'ran was revealed on one night by the Spirit, and Angels came before the Prophet Muhammad [pbuhahp] with All Affairs? 

Laylatu'Qadr, after that one, till the Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp] left this material world.  On the Night of Power, Only the Angels or The Spirit and Angels came down with All affairs before Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp] ? 

زَّلُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ وَالرُّوحُ فِيهَا بِإِذْنِ رَبِّهِمْ مِنْ كُلِّ أَمْرٍ {4}

[Shakir 97:4] The angels and Gibreel descend in it by the permission of their Lord for every affair,
[Pickthal 97:4] The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees.
[Yusufali 97:4] Therein come down the angels and the Spirit by Allah's permission, on every errand:

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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21 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Entire Qu'ran was revealed on one night by the Spirit, and Angels came before the Prophet Muhammad [pbuhahp] with All Affairs? 

Laylatu'Qadr, after that one, till the Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp] left this material world.  Only the Angels came down with All affairs before Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp] ?


Based on the evidence in the Qur'aan, it was not all revealed in one night.  Please read the verse below carefully and you will see that the Qur'aan was gradually revealed or revealed in stages but not all in one night:

Qur'aan 25:32

Those who disbelieved said, "Why was the Qur'an not revealed to him all at once?" We have released it to you gradually, in order to fix it in your memory. We have recited it in a specific sequence.

 

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13 minutes ago, AlKhidr said:


Based on the evidence in the Qur'aan, it was not all revealed in one night.  Please read the verse below carefully and you will see that the Qur'aan was gradually revealed or revealed in stages but not all in one night:

Qur'aan 25:32

Those who disbelieved said, "Why was the Qur'an not revealed to him all at once?" We have released it to you gradually, in order to fix it in your memory. We have recited it in a specific sequence.

 

1]Your understanding is that it was been gradually revealed to the Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp] during the 23 years, as the need to reveal a particular verse (s)

2] Your understanding, is It was also been revealed on Every  Night of Qadr and the Spirit and Angels came with All affairs and presented them before the Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp]?

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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Dhulfikar its important that I must remind you that you failed to meet my CHALLENGE by producing just one verse where Allah uses the word "hadiyth" and either tell us to believe in it or follow it or that it is the sunna of Rasuwl Allah. 

Please, for God sake, stop with your nonsense challanges.

Quote

Allah uses the word "hadiyth

Funny, just while ago you said " I know why because Allah in the Qur'aan from cover to cover never used the word "hadiyth" ". Well now you admit He use it. 

Quote

Now since you challenged me in your statement up above, I will be happy to meet it head on.  Dhulfikar look at the verse below and you will see that Allah uses the word "hadiyth" and He has condemned it.  Allah makes it very clear that we are not supposed to believe in hadiyth that came after the revelation of the Qur'aan:

And how in the world that verse even imply that we are not supposed to believe in narrations of Prophet? Agein and agein you give nothing but your interpretation. 

The verse clearly says In which statement/speech/hadith after Allah [swt] and revelations. And I have repeted myself so many times that Prophet sayings, acts i.e Sunnah are FROM Allah (swt)!

Listen.  A hadith is piece of information of what was revealed to Prophet, and it is also piece of Information of what Prophet did. His examples and speech and will is from Allah (swt). The hadith that is narrated by people is related to it source which is the Prophet from Allah (swt)! There is no verse in Qur'an that deny this!

This same methology have also done to the Qur'an. People narrate to each other what Qur'an verses was revealed and what Prophet Muhammad did explain about it. Or what Prophet Muhammad (saws) did to particular people, or what he did in the battlefields etc. These are recorded so other people can learn and follow it. Does Qur'an deny this, NO! Because these are part of what Allah revealed to Prophet. Be It Qur'an or Wisdom, Or knowledge.

Quote

AND HE CONDEMNED IT STRONGLY BY TELLING US NOT TO BELIEVE IN NO HADIYTH AFTER THE REVELATION OF THE QUR'AAN

Your fallacy interpretation again.

Quote

 IN ADDITION TO THIS, THERE IS NOT ONE VERSE IN THE QUR'AAN WHERE Allah TELLS US TO BELIEVE IN OR FOLLOW HADIYTH BOOKS. 

Your fallacy  interpretation again.

Quote

THAT YOUR SO-CALLED HADIYTHS BELOW ARE CONDMNED BY Allah TA'ALA.

Your fallacy conclusion.

Quote

Thanks. Now if I want to kill my brain cells, I would go to that site. And now please, after showing us this site, you don't need any more to Copy/Paste your belief here.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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1 hour ago, AlKhidr said:

read all of your 8 emotional statements; I say emotional because just like all your other previous comments about me, you have not proved nothing nor can your refute any of my arguments in the scripture of Allah (Al Qur'aan).  The bottom line is this, if you are believing or teaching something in Islaam, you have to prove it in the Qur'aan.  I initially opened this post and presented my arguments, research in a book that I entitled: Shia Challenging Questions.  I presented it in this forum to allow people to critique it and present evidence from the Qur'aan to disprove my arguments and prove the authenticity of the Shia school of thought.  As of this point in time you Magma nor any other Shi'ite Muslim has been able to refute my arguments in my book that all can download on page 1 of this post.  The only thing that I've been getting from Shi'ite Muslims are: EMOTIONS, EMPTY STATEMENTS, ASSUMPTIONS, OPINIONS, WHISHFUL THINKING, PROGRAMMING, AND BRAINWASHING.

The only one being emotional and spewing wishful thinking, empty statements, opinions and is clearly brainwashed is you, the great sheikh Khidr whose proof is so strong, intellectually refreshing and dazzling that he doesn't need form a coherent and comprehensive thought, the proof is so awesome that it is just copy-pasted for ten pages straight. Oh no, I think I am having an existential crisis! *yawn*

Anyway, what's so emotional about Magma's statement? It was well-thought out, mature and raised some pretty good and valid points. I don't see any emotion or capital letters or blindingly bright colored from our well-respected moderator.  And you know, where I saw a lot of emotion, Khidr? The Free Minds forum, where everybody picks and chooses their interpretation of ayahs, where people talk about wanting to bomb the Kaaba and when Quranists disagree with each other, one accuses the other of wanting to join Daesh and they make wild speculations over the most painfully obvious verses of the Qur'an. Yet you accuse us of being emotional, indulge wishful thinking and taking opinions over facts and Khidr, why are you AlKhidr19 at freeminds.org. I thought you didn't buy the code 19 nonsense?

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11 hours ago, AlKhidr said:

I read all of your 8 emotional statements; I say emotional because just like all your other previous comments about me, you have not proved nothing nor can your refute any of my arguments in the scripture of Allah (Al Qur'aan).  The bottom line is this, if you are believing or teaching something in Islaam, you have to prove it in the Qur'aan.  I initially opened this post and presented my arguments, research in a book that I entitled: Shia Challenging Questions.  I presented it in this forum to allow people to critique it and present evidence from the Qur'aan to disprove my arguments and prove the authenticity of the Shia school of thought.  As of this point in time you Magma nor any other Shi'ite Muslim has been able to refute my arguments in my book that all can download on page 1 of this post.  The only thing that I've been getting from Shi'ite Muslims are: EMOTIONS, EMPTY STATEMENTS, ASSUMPTIONS, OPINIONS, WHISHFUL THINKING, PROGRAMMING, AND BRAINWASHING.

There's more to life than "proving" or "refuting" arguments in an endless loop of narcissistic chitter chatter and white noise on a forum. Life is too short. I'm not your dancing monkey.

Nothing anybody says seems sufficient for you anyway, so why bother? Have a little more respect, humility, and openness for God's sake. 

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12 hours ago, AlKhidr said:


Based on the evidence in the Qur'aan, it was not all revealed in one night.  Please read the verse below carefully and you will see that the Qur'aan was gradually revealed or revealed in stages but not all in one night:

Qur'aan 25:32

Those who disbelieved said, "Why was the Qur'an not revealed to him all at once?" We have released it to you gradually, in order to fix it in your memory. We have recited it in a specific sequence.

 

Salam,

Yes it was revealed gradually to the prophet.

But first the Quran in lawh mahfooz, is extracted, then reaches bayt- Al mamur, then descends and is revealed gradually from there to the prophet in the span of 20 years.

In fact, it is a Glorious Quran.(85:21)

In a preserved Tablet (85:22)

And a Book inscribed.(52:2)

In a published scroll. (52:3)

And the frequented House.(52:4)- Bayt Al- Mamour

 

When intially the prophet was given the prophetic mission ( be' esat ), he received Surah alaq, and some other verses were revealed to him, then in leyatul qadr the whole Quran was extracted from Lawh mahfooz to Bayt Al- mamur, and from there the verses gradually descended to the prophet according to necessity in the 20 remaining years. 

Al-Kafi:

H 3556, Ch 14, h 6
Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father and Muhammad ibn al-Qasim from Muhammad ibn Sulayman from Dawud from Hafs ibn Ghiyath who has said the following:

“Once I asked abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, about the words of Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most Holy,

‘The month of Ramadan is the month in which the Quran was revealed, . . .’ (2:185) but there were twenty years between its first and last (words).’ 

Abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, said,

‘The Holy Quran was revealed in "one piece in the month of Ramadan to Bayt al-Ma’mur," then it was revealed in twenty years.’ 

The Imam said, ‘The Holy Prophet has said, “The books of Ibrahim were revealed in the first night of Ramadan, Torah was revealed on the sixth day of Ramadan, Injil was revealed after thirteen nights of the month of Ramadan had passed, al-Zabur was revealed after twenty six days were passed from the month of Ramadan and the Holy Quran was revealed after twenty-three days had passed from the month of Ramadan.’”

Edited by certainclarity

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On 5/29/2016 at 5:48 AM, AlKhidr said:

PROPHET MUHAMMAD WAS ONLY GIVEN ONE KITAAB AND NOTHING ELSE WHICH IS THE HOLY QUR'AAN AND PROPHET MUHAMMAD TOLD US AS REVEALED BY Allah IN THE QUR'AAN AND NOT YOUR MAN-MADE HADIYTHS THAT HE ONLY FOLLOWS THE QUR'AAN AND THAT HE WOULD NEVER ALTER OR CHANGE IT.  AND IN ADDITION TO THIS, PROPHET MUHAMMAD WAS NEVER INSTRUCTED, COMMANDED BY Allah TO FOLLOW ALULBAYT; Allah INSTRUCTED, COMMANDED PROPHET MUHAMMAD TO FOLLOW MILLA IBRAHIYM (THE RELIGION OF ABRAHAM):

Milla%20Ibrahiym%201%20Quraan%2016%20ver

 

Milla%20Ibrahiym%202%20Quraan%206%20vers

QURAN:

أَفَلَا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ ۚ وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِندِ غَيْرِ اللَّهِ لَوَجَدُوا فِيهِ اخْتِلَافًا كَثِيرًا
1. Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction. (4:82)

كِتَابٌ أَنزَلْنَاهُ إِلَيْكَ مُبَارَكٌ لِّيَدَّبَّرُوا آيَاتِهِ وَلِيَتَذَكَّرَ أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ
2.  [This is] a blessed Book which We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], that they might reflect upon its verses and that those of understanding would be reminded. (38:29)

IBRAHIM  AS AND HIS RELIGION  IN QURAN:

- وَمَنْ أَحْسَنُ دِينًا مِّمَّنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ وَاتَّبَعَ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا ۗ وَاتَّخَذَ اللَّهُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ خَلِيلًا
3. And who is better in religion than one who submits himself to Allah while being a doer of good and follows the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth? And Allah took Abraham as an intimate friend. (4:125)

قُلْ صَدَقَ اللَّهُ ۗ فَاتَّبِعُوا مِلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ
4. Say, " Allah has told the truth. So follow the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth; and he was not of the polytheists." (3:95)

5. Why Allah swt has commended the Prophet to follow the religion of Ibrahim as? We need to know the characteristics of religion of ibrahim in this regard.

These are given below:

وَإِبْرَاهِيمَ إِذْ قَالَ لِقَوْمِهِ اعْبُدُوا اللَّهَ وَاتَّقُوهُ ۖ ذَٰلِكُمْ خَيْرٌ لَّكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ
6. And [We sent] Abraham, when he said to his people, "Worship Allah and fear Him. That is best for you, if you should know. (29:16)

وَاذْكُرْ فِي الْكِتَابِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ۚ إِنَّهُ كَانَ صِدِّيقًا نَّبِيًّا
7. And mention in the Book [the story of] Abraham. Indeed, he was a man of truth and a prophet. (19:41)

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ
8. And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people."[Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers." (2:124)

إِنَّ إِبْرَاهِيمَ كَانَ أُمَّةً قَانِتًا لِّلَّهِ حَنِيفًا وَلَمْ يَكُ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ
9. Indeed, Abraham was a [comprehensive] leader, devoutly obedient to Allah , inclining toward truth, and he was not of those who associate others with Allah . (16:120)

The Religion of Ibrahim has concepts of worshiping Allah, Prophet hood and Leader (Imam) chosen by Allah.

قُلْ إِنَّنِي هَدَانِي رَبِّي إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ دِينًا قِيَمًا مِّلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا ۚ وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ
10. Say, "Indeed, my Lord has guided me to a straight path - a correct religion - the way of Abraham, inclining toward truth. And he was not among those who associated others with Allah ." (6:161)

فَأَقِمْ وَجْهَكَ لِلدِّينِ حَنِيفًا ۚ فِطْرَتَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي فَطَرَ النَّاسَ عَلَيْهَا ۚ لَا تَبْدِيلَ لِخَلْقِ اللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ
11. So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah . That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know. (30:30)

إِنَّ عِدَّةَ الشُّهُورِ عِندَ اللَّهِ اثْنَا عَشَرَ شَهْرًا فِي كِتَابِ اللَّهِ يَوْمَ خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ مِنْهَا أَرْبَعَةٌ حُرُمٌ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ ۚ فَلَا تَظْلِمُوا فِيهِنَّ أَنفُسَكُمْ ۚ وَقَاتِلُوا الْمُشْرِكِينَ كَافَّةً كَمَا يُقَاتِلُونَكُمْ كَافَّةً ۚ وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَ الْمُتَّقِينَ
12. Indeed, the number of months with Allah is twelve [lunar] months in the register of Allah [from] the day He created the heavens and the earth; of these, four are sacred. That is the correct religion, so do not wrong yourselves during them. And fight against the disbelievers collectively as they fight against you collectively. And know that Allah is with the righteous [who fear Him]. (9:36)

 The Religion of Ibrahim is called as Correct Religion. It has concept of   12 Months out of those 4 are sacred. Its explanation from saying of Imam is given below:

In a tradition on the authority of Jabir (ra), Imam Muhammad al-Baqir, the fifth Imam of Ahlul-Bait, interprets the above verse (sr no. 12) which is as follows:

Jabir said: I asked Imam Muhammad al-Baqir about the meaning of the verse: "Verily the number of the months … (9:36).”He (as) breathed long (out of sorrow) and said: "O Jabir, The ‘year’ is my grandfather, the messenger of Allah (S), and his family are its ‘months’ who are the twelve Imams, and are … (naming the Imams one by one). They are the Proofs of Allah on His creation, and Trusties of His revelations and His knowledge. And Those of ‘four sacred who are the firm religion’ are those four who have the same name, and are ‘Ali, the Commander of Faithful (as), and my father ‘Ali Ibn al-Husayn (as), and later ‘Ali Ibn Musa (as), and ‘Ali Ibn Muhammad (as). Thus acknowledging these four is ‘the firm religion, so wrong not your souls in them’ and believe in all of them to be guided."

Shi’i Reference: Kitab al-Ghaiba, by Shaikh Tusi..

Thus the religion of Ibrahim means following the 12 imams from Pure Progeny of the prophet Muhammad saw after him.

سَلَامٌ عَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ
13. "Peace upon Abraham." (37:109)

إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصْطَفَىٰ آدَمَ وَنُوحًا وَآلَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَآلَ عِمْرَانَ عَلَى الْعَالَمِينَ    
14. Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds  (3:33)

إِنَّ أَوْلَى النَّاسِ بِإِبْرَاهِيمَ لَلَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوهُ وَهَٰذَا النَّبِيُّ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا ۗ وَاللَّهُ وَلِيُّ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ
17. Indeed, the most worthy of Abraham among the people are those who followed him [in submission to Allah ] and this prophet, and those who believe [in his message]. And Allah is the ally of the believers. (3:68)

وَلَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا نُوحًا وَإِبْرَاهِيمَ وَجَعَلْنَا فِي ذُرِّيَّتِهِمَا النُّبُوَّةَ وَالْكِتَابَ ۖ فَمِنْهُم مُّهْتَدٍ ۖ وَكَثِيرٌ مِّنْهُمْ فَاسِقُونَ
18. And We have already sent Noah and Abraham and placed in their descendants prophethood and scripture; and among them is he who is guided, but many of them are defiantly disobedient. (57:26)

قُلْ آمَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالْأَسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَىٰ وَعِيسَىٰ وَالنَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ
19. Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him." (3:84)

قُولُوا آمَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالْأَسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَىٰ وَعِيسَىٰ وَمَا أُوتِيَ النَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ
20. Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." (2:136)

The above verses (19 & 20) indicate that every Muslim believes what has been revealed to the prophet Ibrahim and other prophets should be followed for being  Muslims ie follower of the correct religion..

ثُمَّ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ أَنِ اتَّبِعْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا ۖ وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ
21. Then We revealed to you, [O Muhammad], to follow the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth; and he was not of those who associate with Allah . (16:123)

إِنَّا أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ كَمَا أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ نُوحٍ وَالنَّبِيِّينَ مِن بَعْدِهِ ۚ وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالْأَسْبَاطِ وَعِيسَىٰ وَأَيُّوبَ وَيُونُسَ وَهَارُونَ وَسُلَيْمَانَ ۚ وَآتَيْنَا دَاوُودَ زَبُورًا
22. Indeed, We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], as We revealed to Noah and the prophets after him. And we revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, the Descendants, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the book [of Psalms]. (4:163)

23. The above verses clarifies that the religion of Ibrahim has to be followed containing 12 leaders. The verse mentions exactly 12 names

24. Hz Nuh As made an ark that saved the believers in the water storm.

The prophet has said:: An interesting statement is recorded from the Holy Prophet, in both Sunni and Shi’ite books on Traditions, which is the famous Tradition of Noah’s ark.
In this Tradition, Abu Dharr says, “The Prophet said, ‘My family is like Noah’s ark. Whoever uses it will be saved and whoever separates from it will drown.” (Mustadrak Halcam, vol.3, p. 151).
Noting that the ark of Noah is a place of refuge and a means of salvation for when the great storm comes, this truth becomes clear that the Islamic ummah will be saved in the storm which came after the death of the Prophet through the Ahlul Bayt.

25. Hz Ibrahim as was made leader / imam of mankind by Allah swt.

26. Hz Ismael name is mentioned at third place. The third Imam is hz Hussain as from the progeny of ismael, He was martyred in Kerbela with his family. This sacrifice is termed as zibeh Azeem.

27. Hz Ishaque and yaqub were also chosen as Imams.

And We gave him Isaac and Jacob in addition, and all [of them] We made righteous. And We made them leaders (Imams) guiding by Our command. And We inspired to them the doing of good deeds, establishment of prayer, and giving of zakah; and they were worshippers of Us. (21:72, 73)

28. The tribes (Asbat) are from the twelve sons of Jacob. There were twelve leaders chosen by Allah swt in their children known as bani Israel.

And We divided them into twelve descendant tribes [as distinct] nations. And We inspired to Moses when his people implored him for water, "Strike with your staff the stone," and there gushed forth from it twelve springs.(7:160)
And Allah had already taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We delegated from among them twelve leaders. (5:12)

29. Similarly the other prophets are mentioned in quran They include:
وَعِيسَىٰ وَأَيُّوبَ وَيُونُسَ وَهَارُونَ وَسُلَيْمَانَ

30. The twelfth prophet mentioned is David.

[We said], "O David, indeed We have made you a successor (khalifa) upon the earth,so judge between the people in truth and do not follow [your own] desire, as it will lead you astray from the way of Allah ." Indeed, those who go astray from the way of Allah will have a severe punishment for having forgotten the Day of Account. (38:26)

The Prophet (S) said: "We (I and my family) are members of a household that Allah (SWT) has chosen for them the life of the Hereafter over the life of this world; and the members of my household (Ahlul-Bayt) shall suffer a great affliction and they shall be forcefully expelled from their homes after my death; then there will come people from the East carrying black flags, and they will ask for some good to be given to them, but they shall be refused service; as such, they will wage war and emerge victorious, and will be offered that which they desired in the first place, but they will refuse to accept it till they pass it to a man from my family (Ahlul-Bayt) appears to fill the Earth with justice as it has been filled with corruption. So whoever reaches that (time) ought to come to them even if crawling on the ice/snow since among them is the Vice-regent of Allah(Khalifatullah)    al-Mahdi."
References:
• Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, Tradition #4082,
• The History Tabari
• al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 11, section 1, pp 250-251

31. The above verses confirm the presence of 12 leaders / imams in the nation of Muhammad who are chosen by Allah swt and they are to be followed,

32. O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. (4:59)

When the verse (4:59) was revealed, Jabir asked the Prophet (S): "We know Allah and the Prophet, but who are those vested with authority whose obedience has been conjoined to that of Allah and yourself?"
The Prophet (S) said: "They are my Caliphs and the Imams of Muslims after me.The first of them is ‘Ali; then al-Hasan; then al-Husayn; then ‘Ali son of al-Husayn; then Muhammad son of ‘Ali who has been mentioned ‘al-Baqir’ in the Torah (the old testament). O Jabir! You will meet him. When you see him, convey my greetings to him. He will be succeeded by his son, Ja’far al-Sadiq (the Truthful); then Musa son of Ja’far; then ‘Ali son of Musa; then Muhammad son of ‘Ali; then ‘Ali son of Muhammad; then al-Hasan son of ‘Ali. He will be followed by his son whose name and nick name will be the same as mine. He will be Proof of Allah (Hujjatullah) on the earth, and the one spared by Allah (Baqiyyatullah) to maintain the cause of faith among mankind. He shall conquer the whole world from the east to the west. So long will he remain hidden from the eyes of his followers and friends that the belief in his leadership will remain only in those hearts which have been tested by Allah for faith.".

Jabir said: "O Messenger of Allah! Will his followers benefit from his seclusion?”The Prophet said: "Yes! by Him who sent me with prophethood! They will be guided by his light, and benefit from his leadership during his seclusion, just as people benefit from the sun even though it is hidden in the clouds. O Jabir! This is from the hidden secrets of Allah and the treasured knowledge of Allah. So guard it except from the people who deserve to know.”(Kifayatul Athar, by al-Khazzaz, p53).

33.  The above beliefs are 12vers shia beliefs. Do we have confirmation that the Shia are following the religion of Ibrahim as per Quran?

 وَإِنَّ مِن شِيعَتِهِ لَإِبْرَاهِيمَ
35. And indeed, among his follower (Shia)  was Abraham, (37:83)

36.  Thus confirming that the 12vers Shia are the followers of the Religion of Ibrahim, that  is the Religion to be followed by the Quran.

Wassalam

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To all the members replying to @AlKhidr

I had successfully proven that he is nothing more than a kafir who does not believe in the Prophet Muhammad let alone his finality as a Prophet.

Furthermore, his kalima is "la illah ila Allah". He believes in the code 19 and believes the last 2 ayahs of Surah Tawbah are later additions. The reason I say this is because he posted links on how to pray salat that showed the kafir Rashid Khalifa teaching people how to pray and his PDF also referred to Code 19.

On the one hand, he says the Prophet was nothing more than a conduit to relay the Quran the us. He was not meant to explain it to us. Yet on the other hand, we find AlKhidr 'trying' to explain it to us. Doesn't that mean he thinks he is more knowledgeable or better than the Prophet?

 

On 5/28/2016 at 9:51 AM, AlKhidr said:

Qur'aan 75:16-19

16.  Do not move your tongue to hasten it.

17.  The responsibility of its collection and its arrangement into Qur’aan lies on Us.

18.  Once We recite it, you shall follow such a Qur’aan.

19.  The responsibility of explaining it lies again on Us.

 

Verse 19 says: "The responsibility of explaining it lies again on Us".  This verse makes it clear that Allah is the one who explains the Qur'aan, not Muhammad, not Ali.  This is how Prophet Muhammad got his knowledge of the Qur'aan and it was Allah who sent Muhammad into this world to deliver the Qur'aan so on that accord this is how Muhammad was able to understand the Qur'aan. 

@AlKhidr: Are you part of "Us" in Quran 75:19? If not, I suggest you bark up a different tree as you whole argument becomes invalid.

 

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I had successfully proven that he is nothing more than a kafir who does not believe in the Prophet Muhammad let alone his finality as a Prophet.

I don't think we have any authority to call (public) anyone kafir, we are not takfiris.

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Furthermore, his kalima is "la illah ila Allah". He believes in the code 19 and believes the last 2 ayahs of Surah Tawbah are later additions. The reason I say this is because he posted links on how to pray salat that showed the kafir Rashid Khalifa teaching people how to pray and his PDF also referred to Code 19.

The problem with any muslims is that when they have established their belief, they are gonna take any information as truth because it is harmony with their belief system. This is very wrong, because it does not give any room with reflecting and logic, rather it only gives room to blind following. The one who accuse us as blind following, is usually itself blind follower. 

Edited by Dhulfikar

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@AlKhidr: Are you part of "Us" in Quran 75:19? If not, I suggest you bark up a different tree as you whole argument becomes invalid.

There is no system with them that can show that what they have understood is absolute correct. When they read verses in literal sense or try to understand arabic words of the verses, they will gonna pick exactly such a meaning by their  understanding in such a way that it does not contradict with Qur'an and at same time harmony with other Quran verses and their beliefs, and the conclusion thus is satisfied as long it does not contradict it or against their belief. 

But what is going to happen when even if their tafsir on particular verses does not contradict the Qur'an, but the understanding does not necessary even mean it is truth in first place? How many times this exactly happen with them, that create diversity among them?

For example this verse:

These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement (hadith) after Allah and His verses will they believe? 45:6

The first mistake they make is because of their emotional hatred of hadith books and Second they don't understand definitions of narration. Thus their judgement is going be logically faulty. They think that any collection of hadith (hadith books) are statements that came after Allah (swt) and Qur'an. Which is totally wrong. Why? Beause any statements of Prophet IS include Quranic verses, It's explanations, The wisdom, Prophet judgements, Prophet saying, Prophet actions are all Statements that are not After Allah (swt) and Qur'an.

Does Qur'an explain things, yes of course it does explain all things. How it does explain? Explaining verse by verse or by Prophet explaining it. When it does that, does it means that our understanding or conclusion from explaining is Correct? Not necessary. And here where every fault comes.

The Gay Quranist Imam will make you sure to understand that case of sexual practices of the "people of Lot" was rape, thus haram. So non-rape sex is allowed between muslm men. And this is not a joke.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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Imam Ali (AS) said, ‘The ignorant is one who considers himself knowledgeable about what he is [in actual fact] ignorant of, and he is content with his own opinion. His attachment to scholars only increases his estrangement [from knowledge] since he is constantly finding fault with them. He deems invalid the views of those who oppose him, and that which he does not understand he sees as fallacious. If he comes across something that he does not know, he denies it and falsifies it saying, ‘I have never heard of this!’ or ‘I do not see it as possible! or ‘How can it be!’ or ‘Where is this from?’ This is due to his confidence in his own opinion and the paucity of his awareness of his own ignorance. For this reason he is attached to what he sees as beneficial from his own mistaken opinion, and as a consequence, denies the truth, remains confused in his own ignorance and too proud to seek knowledge." -

In regards to the narration above this guy is too hot headed and won't be able to engage in intellectual discussion and dialogue with any member on this site , ignorance and arrogance have blinded him , may Allah swt guide him , :ws: 

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Let's not forget that he tried to explain to us that all the Nabis starting from Adam (as) and including Muhammad (saws) were black and from Nubia, and that Islam was ultimately was Nubian in origin after reading a book by Cheikh Anta Diop, a founding father of Pan-African Movement.which skewed his interpretation of 15:26-28. Again, it is no use explaining anything to Khidr, he just wants to see if he can dupe someone into following this Quranist nonsense and buy this Afrocentrist pap along with it. That's the only reason why he is here, to convert us and show us "true" Islam, he thinks he is better than us. It's like Magma said, he is narcissistic and proud and lacks humility. Me and Shiaman14 have exposed this guy for lying about the Qur'an as well. 

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18 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

I don't think we have any authority to call (public) anyone kafir, we are not takfiris.

What you have said is true but denying Muhammad as the final Prophet and refusing to say "Muhammad-ur-Rasoolallah" in kalimah and tashhahud is considered kufr in pretty much all sects of Islam. On top of that, we have the Rashid Khalifa issue as well.

Some time you have to call a spade a spade.

Edited by shiaman14

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Inshallah this ideology is thrown into the dustbin of falsehood, and no more precious youth are victims of this poison. It's scary to think how the most elegant book of humanity can be twisted by corrupt and ignorant elements. Don't take anything for granted folks.

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On 23/1/2016 at 1:29 AM, AlKhidr said:

There are mathematical patterns in the Qur'aan based on the prime number 19 and this was done by Allah when he revealed the Qur'aan to Prophet Muhammad of Arabia. 

well. thats just factually wrong isnt it?

since in order for this code of 19 to work, rashid khalifa (may Allah increase his torment in hellfire) had to remove two verses from surah tawbah. 

did you know this? I thought not. 

there was a very famous false "peer" here in manchester who duped a lot of decent shias with this numbers BS, number 19 etc. I personally have witnessed over a decade families torn apart, bankrupted and have disaster after disaster fall upon them after they accept the legitimacy of this rubbish instead of ithna asheri beliefs. it only stopped when Allah alhamdulillah dragged this fake holy man to hellfire a few years ago, and those duped into this weird cult slowly woke from their hypnosis. 

guys abjad numbers are culturally now a part of shia major decisions in life. I can only beg you to reconsider. if it was good for us, the Masumeen (as) would encourage us to use them. 

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also - according to shia ithna asheri beliefs, the verses of bismillah are included as ayats of the quran. does the cult of 19 include bismillah as ayahs of the quran?

you know why nowadays bismillah is not counted as part of the quran? because Maula Ali (as) and his shia used to say bismillah loud, and Maula Ali (as) was famous for his hadith "I am the nuktah under the ba of bismillah" so in order to humiliate him and the shia, muawiyyah (LA) removed its importance from the hearts of his followers, and it spread everywhere. 

tell me, if you include bismillah as verses of the holy quran on each page, does the code still work?

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This is how this Quranist guy do his salat (Wanting to make other follow his interpretation). Look how they interpret these Quranic words. If you see this part from 7:31, he literally do sujud in his CHIN. They translate it as chin and take it literally meaning to do sujud on chin.

Everything is so mess. They take words here there and interpret them by their understanding. There is no symmetric in their salat. There is no Rakat, rather you can recite as many quranic surah and verses and decide when to kneel and then sujud. And of course there is no Ruku in their salat.

What is the point of this? Why they just can't follow what Prophet Did in Salat and how he explained the Salat. Every Muslim sects who is not Quranist have the same way to do salat. This is because salat was so important that every muslim was tought how to do it.
 

Edited by Dhulfikar

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Salam,

The issue is one has to understand what the term Hadith means  in Arabic.

What Alkhidr is mentioning is also Hadith, but his own Hadith .

Lets take a look at what the term Hadith translates to:

modernistic

latest

new

talk

chat

news

speech

discource.

What the lovers of Ahlul bayt are doing is simply listening to their speech and those who narrate their speech that corresponds with the Quran, instead of unreliable people.

 

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